Projectiles Need an Overhaul

[Airdive.2613]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@infrequentia.3465 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@infrequentia.3465 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Yah Druid 1 with staff, Mesmer 1 with GS, Necro 1 with scepter or axe, those are the most that make no sense to me and then you see classes like Dragonhunter LB where every skill except for 5 is a projectile or thief with pistol/rifle all projectiles. I don't get it... Its like they decided, hey these classes for ranged should have insane handicaps for no reason.

Also yah Coalescence of ruin on Revenant Hammer, compare that to Dragonhunter True shot on Longbow, less damage, less hits. TS is a projectile you have to stand still for 1 sec to use, while CoR is almost invisible to the eye in a zerg, and can't be reflected/absorbed by ranged projectile blockers and can be used while moving.

it seems to me you have not a single clue what a projectile is

a freaking earth shattering skill is not a projectile.

a arrow shot from a bow is a projectile

a beam from a sword is not a projectile its a BEAMa beam from a staff is not a projectile its a BEAM

meteor showers are not projectiles there freaking meteors

but all these skill can be blocked or dodged

yah but not reflected, or absorbed, why not?

because there not projectiles how hard is that to grasp.

you can't reflect a sword slash either

this is my point, why is it that they decided that entire movesets can be absorbed and reflected and others just shouldnt be? how is that balance

You guys are arguing logic. ok well then a sword shouldn't be able to shoot a beam.

Its just mechanics there is no reason why beam effects shouldnt be absorbed or reflected as well. There is no good reason that some classes have projectiles over others, and there is no good reason that said projectile ranged attacks should have so many counters and direct damage range attacks have fewer.

I'll say it again: you're basically not supposed to stay on the defensive against non-projectile ranged attacks. The entire point is to pressure you to leave or engage in melee range.It's like a "soft aggro" mechanic where you're punished for your indecision.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:this is my point, why is it that they decided that entire movesets can be absorbed and reflected and others just shouldnt be? how is that balanceHow is it not balance? The professions aren't mean to be equal; they are meant to be very different in terms of themes, character, and playstyle. The idea isn't to make each prof mathematically equivalent, it's to make them fun to play in different ways. Since part of fun is making sure there are interesting niches were the prof shines, that means there are always trade offs.

Sometimes ANet does a good job of balancing, sometimes not. Sometimes we like the job ANet has done, sometimes not. (And there's often little overlap between the two.)

You guys are arguing logic. ok well then a sword shouldn't be able to shoot a beam.Try not to get caught up in the names. A "sword" in Tyria doesn't work like a RL sword. It's a focus to channel magic energies, even for Warriors and Thieves. If it makes you feel better, think of mesmer greatswords as being staffs of purple mental magic, that just happen to look like swords.

Its just mechanics there is no reason why beam effects shouldnt be absorbed or reflected as well.

It's somewhat arbitrary, sure.

There is no good reason that some classes have projectiles over others, and there is no good reason that said projectile ranged attacks should have so many counters and direct damage range attacks have fewer.There are all sorts of reasons that some classes have more projectiles. And all sorts of reasons that some professions have to worry about different sorts of counters than others. This is part of what makes them interesting.

---

Mostly, you seem to be arguing that ANet should change the system because it's inconsistent with how you would design a combat system. And there's nothing wrong with being bothered by what strikes you as an inherent inconsistency. However, if your goal is to get ANet to overhaul projectile mechanics in the game, try to look at all aspects of all the professions, not just how some use projectiles more than others.

[Omega.6801]

Only projectile related issue I'd like to have overhauled/fixed is that equiping Rodgort, a somewhat expensive legendary weapon, changes some projectiles, like guardians "Throw Flame" skill, to be crawling on the ground instead of flying through the air, making them often not hit their target because it's "obstructed".

[infrequentia.3465]

@"lokh.2695" said:Only projectile related issue I'd like to have overhauled/fixed is that equiping Rodgort, a somewhat expensive legendary weapon, changes some projectiles, like guardians "Throw Flame" skill, to be crawling on the ground instead of flying through the air, making them often not hit their target because it's "obstructed".

the legendary doesn't change the skill

legendaries only change how skills look in particle effect , like throwing sunrise instead of a generic sword.or throwing frostfang instead of a generic skill

[Ardid.7203]

I don't think the answer is to homogenize every ranged attack to be the same. I would in fact enhance the difference, making projectiles able to dismiss some of the defenses that currently affect both (Example: Since reflect and destroy only affect projectiles, make retaliation only affect non-projectiles).

In the end, the point is it would be fair to not make certain profession suffer so much because projectile hate, while others don't get such problem ever. Just give alternatives to everyone.

[Omega.6801]

@infrequentia.3465 said:

@"lokh.2695" said:Only projectile related issue I'd like to have overhauled/fixed is that equiping Rodgort, a somewhat expensive legendary weapon, changes some projectiles, like guardians "Throw Flame" skill, to be crawling on the ground instead of flying through the air, making them often not hit their target because it's "obstructed".

the legendary doesn't change the skill

legendaries only change how skills look in particle effect , like throwing sunrise instead of a generic sword.or throwing frostfang instead of a generic skill

I know they should. Try equiping, or simply skinning a torch with, rodgort on your guard and use the flip skill of the first torch skill. ;)

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

why don't other attacks have separate additional counters like projectiles have, other attacks like ranged damage attacks could be given an additional counter, for instance, they could bounce off randomly and hit some random location or maybe explode when the new counter is activated.

I just dont get why projectiles are penalized and every other attack isn't penalized in some other equal manner, it seems very unfair for any build that relies on projectiles.

[infrequentia.3465]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:why don't other attacks have separate additional counters like projectiles have, other attacks like ranged damage attacks could be given an additional counter, for instance, they could bounce off randomly and hit some random location or maybe explode when the new counter is activated.

I just dont get why projectiles are penalized and every other attack isn't penalized in some other equal manner, it seems very unfair for any build that relies on projectiles.

you mean like walking out of the 300 range for melee attacks.

lets make it i can hit people 1500 range away with my greatsword auto attack on a warrior

[infrequentia.3465]

@lokh.2695 said:

@infrequentia.3465 said:

@lokh.2695 said:Only projectile related issue I'd like to have overhauled/fixed is that equiping Rodgort, a somewhat expensive legendary weapon, changes some projectiles, like guardians "Throw Flame" skill, to be crawling on the ground instead of flying through the air, making them often not hit their target because it's "obstructed".

the legendary doesn't change the skill

legendaries only change how skills look in particle effect , like throwing sunrise instead of a generic sword.or throwing frostfang instead of a generic skill

I know they should. Try equiping, or simply skinning a torch with, rodgort on your guard and use the flip skill of the first torch skill. ;)

i just did i threw rodgort and it deffintly flies in the air just like the normal version does with a blue flame

[Oglaf.1074]

You should be thankful they aren't projectiles as they can be fired a couple of hundred "range" outside of their stated range.

[Voltekka.2375]

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:why don't other attacks have separate additional counters like projectiles have, other attacks like ranged damage attacks could be given an additional counter, for instance, they could bounce off randomly and hit some random location or maybe explode when the new counter is activated.

I just dont get why projectiles are penalized and every other attack isn't penalized in some other equal manner, it seems very unfair for any build that relies on projectiles.

They do have a counter. It is called "Block"

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:why don't other attacks have separate additional counters like projectiles have, other attacks like ranged damage attacks could be given an additional counter, for instance, they could bounce off randomly and hit some random location or maybe explode when the new counter is activated.

I just dont get why projectiles are penalized and every other attack isn't penalized in some other equal manner, it seems very unfair for any build that relies on projectiles.

They do have a counter. It is called "Block"

yah block works on projectiles too,

Block/evade = Direct Damage AttacksBlock/evade/reflect/absorb = projectile attacks

see how it isn't fair

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:see how it isn't fair

"Balance" isn't only about making things equal or equivalent. It's often about providing interesting trade-offs.

ANet isn't likely to be worried about arguments regarding "fairness" between one skill type for one prof and another skill type for the other prof. Instead, compare the overall options available, what niches they fill, what trade-offs players must make to optimize for those niches.

That will allow you to formulate a stronger argument, which might convince ANet to revisit what counts as a projectile attack, and what doesn't.

[intox.6347]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:I dont understand why some classes have ranged attacks that go extremely far and are not considered projectiles. How is it fair for some classes to get 1200 range powerful attacks with no possible way to reflect/block them? What is the reason that some classes have non projectiles and others do for ranged attacks? I don't see how any of this translates to balance as it seems to be a random decision that some classes are simply not penalized for ranged attacks for no discernible reason.

I don't get why it was decided that oh this class over here needs projectiles, but not this one over here for attacks that basically do the same thing.

You get some example where exactly is that bad for you ? I dont feel that is at any class problem with this... its part of mechanic... ppl are used to it... weapons and characters are build on that difference if is weapon projectile based or beam....And we cant talk about physics, reality, immersion.... coz we have things like bleeding constructs... gates.... or burning under water...

[Ardid.7203]

Engineer, specially Core, has a massive problem due to having most ranged attacks linked to projectiles, in the current projectile hating meta. In some scenarios, specially on WvW, attacking from afar becomes just suicidal.Both pistols and rifle have the problem (and there is no other ranged weapon available), most ranged kits have the problem, all turrets except thumper and healing, even thrown elixirs (which doesn't do damage but only support, only exception being Elixir X's one), have the problem. At least 51 engineer skills are projectiles, without counting those that are related to traits. I don't think there are more than 10 ranged non-projectiles for engie (including trait ones).

[OriOri.8724]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:I dont understand why some classes have ranged attacks that go extremely far and are not considered projectiles. How is it fair for some classes to get 1200 range powerful attacks with no possible way to reflect/block them? What is the reason that some classes have non projectiles and others do for ranged attacks? I don't see how any of this translates to balance as it seems to be a random decision that some classes are simply not penalized for ranged attacks for no discernible reason.

I don't get why it was decided that oh this class over here needs projectiles, but not this one over here for attacks that basically do the same thing.

Not all of those attacks are projectiles though. Steal is technically a ranged attack, yet I think everyone would struggle to classify steal as a projectile. Similarly, power spike and power lock are both 1,200 range skills, but they are also very clearly not projectiles.

[reddie.5861]

@infrequentia.3465 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@infrequentia.3465 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Yah Druid 1 with staff, Mesmer 1 with GS, Necro 1 with scepter or axe, those are the most that make no sense to me and then you see classes like Dragonhunter LB where every skill except for 5 is a projectile or thief with pistol/rifle all projectiles. I don't get it... Its like they decided, hey these classes for ranged should have insane handicaps for no reason.

Also yah Coalescence of ruin on Revenant Hammer, compare that to Dragonhunter True shot on Longbow, less damage, less hits. TS is a projectile you have to stand still for 1 sec to use, while CoR is almost invisible to the eye in a zerg, and can't be reflected/absorbed by ranged projectile blockers and can be used while moving.

it seems to me you have not a single clue what a projectile is

a freaking earth shattering skill is not a projectile.

a arrow shot from a bow is a projectile

a beam from a sword is not a projectile its a BEAMa beam from a staff is not a projectile its a BEAM

meteor showers are not projectiles there freaking meteors

but all these skill can be blocked or dodged

yah but not reflected, or absorbed, why not?

because there not projectiles how hard is that to grasp.

you can't reflect a sword slash either

Wait your wrong. Beams can be reflected.

As your pulling real life logic into this or the guy before you don't remember.But anything shiny can reflect a beam.

A laser on a mirror will reflect no?

[intox.6347]

@reddie.5861 said:

@infrequentia.3465 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@infrequentia.3465 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Yah Druid 1 with staff, Mesmer 1 with GS, Necro 1 with scepter or axe, those are the most that make no sense to me and then you see classes like Dragonhunter LB where every skill except for 5 is a projectile or thief with pistol/rifle all projectiles. I don't get it... Its like they decided, hey these classes for ranged should have insane handicaps for no reason.

Also yah Coalescence of ruin on Revenant Hammer, compare that to Dragonhunter True shot on Longbow, less damage, less hits. TS is a projectile you have to stand still for 1 sec to use, while CoR is almost invisible to the eye in a zerg, and can't be reflected/absorbed by ranged projectile blockers and can be used while moving.

it seems to me you have not a single clue what a projectile is

a freaking earth shattering skill is not a projectile.

a arrow shot from a bow is a projectile

a beam from a sword is not a projectile its a BEAMa beam from a staff is not a projectile its a BEAM

meteor showers are not projectiles there freaking meteors

but all these skill can be blocked or dodged

yah but not reflected, or absorbed, why not?

because there not projectiles how hard is that to grasp.

you can't reflect a sword slash either

Wait your wrong. Beams can be reflected.

As your pulling real life logic into this or the guy before you don't remember.But anything shiny can reflect a beam.

A laser on a mirror will reflect no?

Mirror you say ? Make that armor to reflect beam, it will be full glass build :D :DIn all games u must put logic away... especially in mmorpg. Its like wuf... at my asura i have 4 heavy sets in inventory also about 16 weapons.... ya big pockets.Also something like fight between big norn guardian with hammer ... vs asura light (for example mesmer, ele...) taking with that hammer bigger than asura more than 4 hit to kill ? yay... 1 hit not evaded... and asura is mush...

But guy with engi is right.... he have lot of projectiles.... and cant avoid reflecting much.... but from what you can see.... core classes are left behind

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@intox.6347 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:I dont understand why some classes have ranged attacks that go extremely far and are not considered projectiles. How is it fair for some classes to get 1200 range powerful attacks with no possible way to reflect/block them? What is the reason that some classes have non projectiles and others do for ranged attacks? I don't see how any of this translates to balance as it seems to be a random decision that some classes are simply not penalized for ranged attacks for no discernible reason.

I don't get why it was decided that oh this class over here needs projectiles, but not this one over here for attacks that basically do the same thing.

You get some example where exactly is that bad for you ? I dont feel that is at any class problem with this... its part of mechanic... ppl are used to it... weapons and characters are build on that difference if is weapon projectile based or beam....And we cant talk about physics, reality, immersion.... coz we have things like bleeding constructs... gates.... or burning under water...

dragonhunter LB and ranger LB, has a huge problem with this, as well as dead eye with rifle and pistol.

[intox.6347]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@intox.6347 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:I dont understand why some classes have ranged attacks that go extremely far and are not considered projectiles. How is it fair for some classes to get 1200 range powerful attacks with no possible way to reflect/block them? What is the reason that some classes have non projectiles and others do for ranged attacks? I don't see how any of this translates to balance as it seems to be a random decision that some classes are simply not penalized for ranged attacks for no discernible reason.

I don't get why it was decided that oh this class over here needs projectiles, but not this one over here for attacks that basically do the same thing.

You get some example where exactly is that bad for you ? I dont feel that is at any class problem with this... its part of mechanic... ppl are used to it... weapons and characters are build on that difference if is weapon projectile based or beam....And we cant talk about physics, reality, immersion.... coz we have things like bleeding constructs... gates.... or burning under water...

dragonhunter LB and ranger LB, has a huge problem with this, as well as dead eye with rifle and pistol.

But this depends on playstyle of that class.... if im roaming soulbeast.... i dont have any problems with reflects.... u have ublockables... and just watch the enemy.... dmg output and cc u can done via longbow is incredible, make it non projectile... then atleast -25% dmg.p/p thief is spammer... u dont care much about reflecting windows... but u have big burst put in times you exactly want...deadeye... here you play with surprise....DH lb need another look.... but its still strong roamer... coz LB is also strong CC weapon... combined with F1 and trap... u have nice combo tool...Most weapons based on projectiles are strong in matter of class... and in roaming you dont met nobody with full time reflecting.... biggest pain for me is SB shield... or SB at all with that mobility, invu and some more reflects...

maybe at engi they should make pistol energy blaster or something.. to make it "beam" not projectile.. but i will not touch others.

Another thing is big group play.... but there is no place for such things like p/p thief, rifle deadeye, lb ranger, lb dh, core engi.... they lack support and other things for group.Its hard balance classes between group play and solo play....

[Ardid.7203]

I wont qualify rifle as strong...

[Jski.6180]

Big projectiles that have added effects once they reach there target needs to be indestructible as they cant be destroy reflected or absorbed by walls etc.. but still can be blocked by players buffs like a normal aoe. (Mostly thinking about all of staff weaver duel skills they are soo pointless with all the counter projectiles and they are slow to boot.) Just throwing unblockable on projectiles to fix this problem will imbalance the game to ranged only a lot.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

I think if one subset of weapons have projectiles, and said projectiles have up to 4 counters, then other weapon types should have an equal amount of counters of some type as well, in order to balance it. It should be like paper rock scissors instead its like paper and there is no rock or scissors so everyone plays scissors, because who wants to play projectiles and have that huge disadvantage of so many counters.

[Airdive.2613]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:I think if one subset of weapons have projectiles, and said projectiles have up to 4 counters, then other weapon types should have an equal amount of counters of some type as well, in order to balance it. It should be like paper rock scissors instead its like paper and there is no rock or scissors so everyone plays scissors, because who wants to play projectiles and have that huge disadvantage of so many counters.

Every profession has access to non-projectile weapons. You're free to use these if you don't like projectiles. There, problem solved.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:I think if one subset of weapons have projectiles, and said projectiles have up to 4 counters, then other weapon types should have an equal amount of counters of some type as well, in order to balance it. It should be like paper rock scissors instead its like paper and there is no rock or scissors so everyone plays scissors, because who wants to play projectiles and have that huge disadvantage of so many counters.

Every profession has access to non-projectile weapons. You're free to use these if you don't like projectiles. There, problem solved.

so you acknowledge its a disadvantage and your advice is to just not play it lol....