Projectiles Need an Overhaul

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

I dont understand why some classes have ranged attacks that go extremely far and are not considered projectiles. How is it fair for some classes to get 1200 range powerful attacks with no possible way to reflect/block them? What is the reason that some classes have non projectiles and others do for ranged attacks? I don't see how any of this translates to balance as it seems to be a random decision that some classes are simply not penalized for ranged attacks for no discernible reason.

I don't get why it was decided that oh this class over here needs projectiles, but not this one over here for attacks that basically do the same thing.

[lezbefriends.7516]

maybe it is lorethat native no like projectis

[Voltekka.2375]

Is it a CoR thing?

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@Voltekka.2375 said:Is it a CoR thing?

any ranged attack between 900-1500 range that isn't a projectile, or any spammable attack that is also ranged, but for some reason isn't a projectile.

[Holykitten.3064]

Examples would go a long way. Which skills exactly do you think need this overhaul? Are they a ground AoE attack? That would be why they aren’t reflective, they aren’t coded as projectiles, just an AoE effect.

[Emprer.7256]

If you are talking about Mesmer gs auto attack and druid staff 1 etc, by defintion they aren't a projectile though. Or ground target attacks, they just aren't. What overhaul do you want for example? You can still evade and they can still be obstructed iirc.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

Yah Druid 1 with staff, Mesmer 1 with GS, Necro 1 with scepter or axe, those are the most that make no sense to me and then you see classes like Dragonhunter LB where every skill except for 5 is a projectile or thief with pistol/rifle all projectiles. I don't get it... Its like they decided, hey these classes for ranged should have insane handicaps for no reason.

Also yah Coalescence of ruin on Revenant Hammer, compare that to Dragonhunter True shot on Longbow, less damage, less hits. TS is a projectile you have to stand still for 1 sec to use, while CoR is almost invisible to the eye in a zerg, and can't be reflected/absorbed by ranged projectile blockers and can be used while moving.

[Voltekka.2375]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Yah Druid 1 with staff, Mesmer 1 with GS, Necro 1 with scepter or axe, those are the most that make no sense to me and then you see classes like Dragonhunter LB where every skill except for 5 is a projectile or thief with pistol/rifle all projectiles. I don't get it... Its like they decided, hey these classes for ranged should have insane handicaps for no reason.

Also yah Coalescence of ruin on Revenant Hammer, compare that to Dragonhunter True shot on Longbow, less damage, less hits. TS is a projectile you have to stand still for 1 sec to use, while CoR is almost invisible to the eye in a zerg, and can't be reflected/absorbed by ranged projectile blockers and can be used while moving.

Most skills you mentioned are 900 range. Not everything in this game should be reflectable, there is enough mass projectile hate in wvw.

[Pifil.5193]

So magical attacks from staff, greatsword, hammer, sceptre and axe aren't projectiles but attacks from bows, rifles and pistols (weapons which actually shoot projectiles) are.

Seems logical to me.

[Holykitten.3064]

@"Pifil.5193" said:So magical attacks from staff, greatsword, hammer, sceptre and axe aren't projectiles but attacks from bows, rifles and pistols (weapons which actually shoot projectiles) are.

Seems logical to me

There are exceptions to this very vague rule, but all still make sense.

Revenant Hammer BoltWarrior Blade Trail, TremorEngineer Throw ShieldRanger Crippling ThrowThief Dancing Dagger

Etc

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Projectile_finisher

[Khisanth.2948]

I could understand the others but if you are dying to Druid staff attacks then I think you need to fix some other issues first.

@Haleydawn.3764 said:

@"Pifil.5193" said:So magical attacks from staff, greatsword, hammer, sceptre and axe aren't projectiles but attacks from bows, rifles and pistols (weapons which actually shoot projectiles) are.

Seems logical to me

There are exceptions to this very vague rule, but all still make sense.

Revenant Hammer BoltWarrior Blade Trail, TremorEngineer Throw ShieldRanger Crippling ThrowThief Dancing Dagger

Etc

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Projectile_finisher

There are also things that are projectiles but do not count as projectile finishers. :(

Such as engineer grenades so you get all the negatives but only some of the positives of being a projectile.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

I don't understand why projectiles have so many counters and other ranged attacks have none. Why do certain classes have access to non counterable ranged auto attack skills? Why do other classes have entire spec's and weapon sets handicapped by projectile negating effects?

[Airdive.2613]

It's almost like you're not supposed to AFK on the defensive when you're attacked with this sort of skills.

[Pifil.5193]

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:I don't understand why projectiles have so many counters and other ranged attacks have none. Why do certain classes have access to non counterable ranged auto attack skills? Why do other classes have entire spec's and weapon sets handicapped by projectile negating effects?

Because its part of the overall game balance.

Non-projectile attacks do have counters. They can be Dodged or Blocked and both Protection and Retaliation apply. The only thing that doesn't is Reflection because that only applies to ranged projectiles.

However, the other side of that is that projectiles can be projectile finishers and those can be very powerful, they can also travel slightly further than "max" range.

The mistake is looking at a single characteristic of a weapon and not the combat system as a whole. There are pros and cons to projectiles.

[Ardid.7203]

Honestly, I only see downsides for projectile skills.Projectiles can be dodged, protected, blocked, invulnerability-dismissed, retaliated, reflected, destroyed, etc. They also have a traveling time that makes easier to dodge or kite them. So the pros of projectiles are? Finishers you rarely control? That is the only thing I can think projectiles are "better" for. Not impressive at all.

[Leo G.4501]

@"Ardid.7203" said:Honestly, I only see downsides for projectile skills.Projectiles can be dodged, protected, blocked, invulnerability-dismissed, retaliated, reflected, destroyed, etc. They also have a traveling time that makes easier to dodge or kite them. So the pros of projectiles are? Finishers you rarely control? That is the only thing I can think projectiles are "better" for. Not impressive at all.

For some professions and skills, another advantage of traveling projectiles was the ability to be hard modified to pierce, bounce, return, explode etc. The problem is, many times this aspect is nerfed because it's seen as "too strong" despite their various disadvantages.

[infrequentia.3465]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Yah Druid 1 with staff, Mesmer 1 with GS, Necro 1 with scepter or axe, those are the most that make no sense to me and then you see classes like Dragonhunter LB where every skill except for 5 is a projectile or thief with pistol/rifle all projectiles. I don't get it... Its like they decided, hey these classes for ranged should have insane handicaps for no reason.

Also yah Coalescence of ruin on Revenant Hammer, compare that to Dragonhunter True shot on Longbow, less damage, less hits. TS is a projectile you have to stand still for 1 sec to use, while CoR is almost invisible to the eye in a zerg, and can't be reflected/absorbed by ranged projectile blockers and can be used while moving.

it seems to me you have not a single clue what a projectile is

a freaking earth shattering skill is not a projectile.

a arrow shot from a bow is a projectile

a beam from a sword is not a projectile its a BEAMa beam from a staff is not a projectile its a BEAM

meteor showers are not projectiles there freaking meteors

but all these skill can be blocked or dodged

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@infrequentia.3465 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Yah Druid 1 with staff, Mesmer 1 with GS, Necro 1 with scepter or axe, those are the most that make no sense to me and then you see classes like Dragonhunter LB where every skill except for 5 is a projectile or thief with pistol/rifle all projectiles. I don't get it... Its like they decided, hey these classes for ranged should have insane handicaps for no reason.

Also yah Coalescence of ruin on Revenant Hammer, compare that to Dragonhunter True shot on Longbow, less damage, less hits. TS is a projectile you have to stand still for 1 sec to use, while CoR is almost invisible to the eye in a zerg, and can't be reflected/absorbed by ranged projectile blockers and can be used while moving.

it seems to me you have not a single clue what a projectile is

a freaking earth shattering skill is not a projectile.

a arrow shot from a bow is a projectile

a beam from a sword is not a projectile its a BEAMa beam from a staff is not a projectile its a BEAM

meteor showers are not projectiles there freaking meteors

but all these skill can be blocked or dodged

yah but not reflected, or absorbed, why not?

[infrequentia.3465]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@infrequentia.3465 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Yah Druid 1 with staff, Mesmer 1 with GS, Necro 1 with scepter or axe, those are the most that make no sense to me and then you see classes like Dragonhunter LB where every skill except for 5 is a projectile or thief with pistol/rifle all projectiles. I don't get it... Its like they decided, hey these classes for ranged should have insane handicaps for no reason.

Also yah Coalescence of ruin on Revenant Hammer, compare that to Dragonhunter True shot on Longbow, less damage, less hits. TS is a projectile you have to stand still for 1 sec to use, while CoR is almost invisible to the eye in a zerg, and can't be reflected/absorbed by ranged projectile blockers and can be used while moving.

it seems to me you have not a single clue what a projectile is

a freaking earth shattering skill is not a projectile.

a arrow shot from a bow is a projectile

a beam from a sword is not a projectile its a BEAMa beam from a staff is not a projectile its a BEAM

meteor showers are not projectiles there freaking meteors

but all these skill can be blocked or dodged

yah but not reflected, or absorbed, why not?

because there not projectiles how hard is that to grasp.

you can't reflect a sword slash either

[Leo G.4501]

@infrequentia.3465 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@infrequentia.3465 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Yah Druid 1 with staff, Mesmer 1 with GS, Necro 1 with scepter or axe, those are the most that make no sense to me and then you see classes like Dragonhunter LB where every skill except for 5 is a projectile or thief with pistol/rifle all projectiles. I don't get it... Its like they decided, hey these classes for ranged should have insane handicaps for no reason.

Also yah Coalescence of ruin on Revenant Hammer, compare that to Dragonhunter True shot on Longbow, less damage, less hits. TS is a projectile you have to stand still for 1 sec to use, while CoR is almost invisible to the eye in a zerg, and can't be reflected/absorbed by ranged projectile blockers and can be used while moving.

it seems to me you have not a single clue what a projectile is

a freaking earth shattering skill is not a projectile.

a arrow shot from a bow is a projectile

a beam from a sword is not a projectile its a BEAMa beam from a staff is not a projectile its a BEAM

meteor showers are not projectiles there freaking meteors

but all these skill can be blocked or dodged

yah but not reflected, or absorbed, why not?

because there not projectiles how hard is that to grasp.

you can't reflect a sword slash either

I think the argument is, if you're arguing from a logical standpoint of bouncing something back, a beam can also be bounced back in a logical world.

All things considered, I don't think it'd be bad to introduce other mechanics or emphasize current mechanics to create a sense of parity. For example, the concept of "counters" exists with some skills which punish melee skills but also work on ranged type of attacks so what if there were better stronger skills that were aimed specifically to disable and/or create a strong effect if you time a "counter" against a melee-ranged skill that isn't a projectile?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

Try not to think of "projectiles" of having a RL analogue. In games, "projectiles" are simply any ranged attack that can be mitigated (by "projectile blocking") or reflected back to the source. In this game, it's never been consistent that "projectiles" look like projectiles nor that everything that looks like a projectile can be affected by projectile blocks. There used to be a wiki page that tried to keep track; I don't see it linked anymore from Projectile, so maybe it's not there anymore.

In some cases, a player skill can be projectile blocked, but a similar skill with identical name from an NPC cannot be.

So in a practical sense, ANet has decided that part of "balancing" between professions is that some classes are greatly affected by projectile mitigation... and some aren't. In all cases, there are trade offs: those with "lots'" of projectile skills usually have other benefits. Whether any particular player feels this is the right balance or not isn't really relevant to whether the game is balanced overall for the entire community. What feels "balanced" to e.g. Snowcrows Math & Faxes won't feel balanced to one of my PvE guilds (where my friend's Harrier Druid often does top damage when grouped up).

tl;dr GW2 projectiles are simply skills that are vulnerable to projectile mitigation. Don't get too caught up in the name.

[DeTechTive.9251]

Comparing skills in a vacuum is the road to wrong conclusions. The guy/gal above me gets it.

[eldrjth.7384]

I can only think of a few good damaging non projectile ranges skills right now, that is the necro scepter/axe and ground targeted skills from elementalist staff. Still it doesnt make any sense to have 2 types of ranged skills where one can be reflected while the other "instant-hit" ones cant (not even the channelled skills like flame thrower) given the reasoning behind proj reflection in the first place - to offset the effectiveness of ranged attacks in PvP. I think the easy 'fix' is to make the instant hit ranged powers reflectable then maybe think about balancing reflect after that.

[DeTechTive.9251]

@"eldrjth.7384" said:I can only think of a few good damaging non projectile ranges skills right now, that is the necro scepter/axe and ground targeted skills from elementalist staff. Still it doesnt make any sense to have 2 types of ranged skills where one can be reflected while the other "instant-hit" ones cant (not even the channelled skills like flame thrower) given the reasoning behind proj reflection in the first place - to offset the effectiveness of ranged attacks in PvP. I think the easy 'fix' is to make the instant hit ranged powers reflectable then maybe think about balancing reflect after that.

I fully disagree. You can't just homogenized certain things that bother you personally. These skills might not be useful in other parts of the game. Let's take rev hammer for instance. Outside of playing it safe in an event farm zerg. There's only ranged WvW use for it. It's basically not part of any other major build for anything. Can you say the same for every projectile weapon. What other things does that profession bring to the table to balancr out it's projectile use? Finishers, utility, mobility, spammable suite of conditions. Again, cannot compare things in a vacuum. You have to see the bigger picture. That's just one example.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@infrequentia.3465 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@infrequentia.3465 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Yah Druid 1 with staff, Mesmer 1 with GS, Necro 1 with scepter or axe, those are the most that make no sense to me and then you see classes like Dragonhunter LB where every skill except for 5 is a projectile or thief with pistol/rifle all projectiles. I don't get it... Its like they decided, hey these classes for ranged should have insane handicaps for no reason.

Also yah Coalescence of ruin on Revenant Hammer, compare that to Dragonhunter True shot on Longbow, less damage, less hits. TS is a projectile you have to stand still for 1 sec to use, while CoR is almost invisible to the eye in a zerg, and can't be reflected/absorbed by ranged projectile blockers and can be used while moving.

it seems to me you have not a single clue what a projectile is

a freaking earth shattering skill is not a projectile.

a arrow shot from a bow is a projectile

a beam from a sword is not a projectile its a BEAMa beam from a staff is not a projectile its a BEAM

meteor showers are not projectiles there freaking meteors

but all these skill can be blocked or dodged

yah but not reflected, or absorbed, why not?

because there not projectiles how hard is that to grasp.

you can't reflect a sword slash either

this is my point, why is it that they decided that entire movesets can be absorbed and reflected and others just shouldnt be? how is that balance

You guys are arguing logic. ok well then a sword shouldn't be able to shoot a beam.

Its just mechanics there is no reason why beam effects shouldnt be absorbed or reflected as well. There is no good reason that some classes have projectiles over others, and there is no good reason that said projectile ranged attacks should have so many counters and direct damage range attacks have fewer.