More Condi in WvW

[roamzero.9486]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:They've also systematically removed a lot of the good spiking power builds or nerfed them while constantly bumping power-based mitigation. There's very little incentive to bother.

Do you even play WvW? You've never encountered those glass Mesmers that one shot almost anything? or those Warriors that can down you in one rotation after a stunlock?

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

The real issue is the amount of boon hate. Resistance could be a reliable answer, but now Scourge is literally built from the ground up to rip every boon a necro could possibly imagine from a group.

There literally isn't a utility on my bar that doesn't corrupt a boon.

You don't even need to add spell breakers to prevent resistance application. All of the enemy revs are going to die the moment they press pain absorb because their boons will be corrupted and they'll have a crap load of condis on them that no one could cleanse.

Hilariously, Scourge is probably one of the better classes at cleansing now, but only if you're in the shades.

If you could reliably keep resistance & stability up on your group, you could train through a condi bomb. But you can't, so you won't.

Edit:As for the glass Mesmer talk. Condi Chrono was stronger than any glass power mesmer you could pull up. And Mirage is probably even better.

A lone Condi Chrono could smash a group 1vX.

[Turk.5460]

I'd rather have the Pre-SoI nerf boonshare providing >1minute of quickness and protection than this incredibly lazy condi-oriented meta.

[Babytater.6803]

I don't think Condi's should be nerfed anymore. This article is very long but super informative and I encourage any of you who see this post to read it. It is from a WvW veteran for the EU server, Piken Square.https://piken.eu/index.php?/topic/1653-post-pof-metagame/

[Turk.5460]

@Babytater.6803 said:I don't think Condi's should be nerfed anymore. This article is very long but super informative and I encourage any of you who see this post to read it. It is from a WvW veteran for the EU server, Piken Square.https://piken.eu/index.php?/topic/1653-post-pof-metagame/

An overwhelming majority of this forum's readers seem to disagree with you according to the poll results so far.

[EFWinters.5421]

Condi has been OP since 2013 when they added dire, torment & perplexity.

[seabhac.5346]

Make power ranger great again! I agree there is too much condi in-game in general, not just WvW. But having so much of it in WvW is just a pain and boring. It makes it hard to have true build diversity for mixing up your play styles to keep it from being boring play style-wise.

[primatos.5413]

@Babytater.6803 said:I don't think Condi's should be nerfed anymore. This article is very long but super informative and I encourage any of you who see this post to read it. It is from a WvW veteran for the EU server, Piken Square.https://piken.eu/index.php?/topic/1653-post-pof-metagame/

Does he play anymore ? Don´t think so .. if he got hit by the condi train doing 2 more steps and died even if removed a lot of the sh it laid on him because of dontknowexactly how much pain stacks .. he wouldn´t be telling condi is fine.PvE boss can stand the hundreds and thousands condtitions but not players because we don´t have millions of hp .. it is that easy

[kathy.8291]

I want to thank everyone for their comments and voting. Im hoping Anet does something about this. Alot of players and friends hate it even more since the expansion going into WvW. Please anet separate the difference between pvp, wvw and pve when it comes to condi. This is really horrible. I hope more people vote and look at this thread. I hope anet looks at this thread.

[Substance E.4852]

@roamzero.9486 said:Do you even play WvW?

Do you?

If you did, you'd know neither of those are even remotely viable zerg builds for a multitude of reasons.

[Nuzt.7894]

@kathy.8291 said:I want to thank everyone for their comments and voting. Im hoping Anet does something about this. Alot of players and friends hate it even more since the expansion going into WvW. Please anet separate the difference between pvp, wvw and pve when it comes to condi. This is really horrible. I hope more people vote and look at this thread. I hope anet looks at this thread.

I'm sure they've looked and came to the conclusion that we clearly do not know anything, we should thank them for improving the WvW game mode.

[Sethanon Stormrage.6721]

@Babytater.6803 said:I don't think Condi's should be nerfed anymore. This article is very long but super informative and I encourage any of you who see this post to read it. It is from a WvW veteran for the EU server, Piken Square.https://piken.eu/index.php?/topic/1653-post-pof-metagame/

Does he still play? Any one can see that Condi is not in a good place for wvw atm. Sure small scale your group composition can help. But the larger the numbers get the more Condi spam there is. It becomes impossible to keep up. There simply isn't enough cleanses and boon hate destroys resistance.This is why the pirate ship meta is a thing. But then maybe that's what anet want. Slow drawn out fights where neither side really engages. That might be their idea of fun...In which case I say give us a Kickstarter so we can fund a proper wvw dev!

[Baldrick.8967]

It's a real shame that they just don't seem to care about the effects all their new condi spam/boon nerf has in wvw.I've pretty much given up on wvw now, which was the only reason I logged into GW2, and am off playing a different game.I even bought the expansion pre release, but can't bring myself to play it. Maybe in a few months I'll pick it up again and take a look and see if they did any balancing.

[Caedmon.6798]

@Sethanon Stormrage.6721 said:

@Babytater.6803 said:I don't think Condi's should be nerfed anymore. This article is very long but super informative and I encourage any of you who see this post to read it. It is from a WvW veteran for the EU server, Piken Square.

https://piken.eu/index.php?/topic/1653-post-pof-metagame/

Does he still play? Any one can see that Condi is not in a good place for wvw atm. Sure small scale your group composition can help. But the larger the numbers get the more Condi spam there is. It becomes impossible to keep up. There simply isn't enough cleanses and boon hate destroys resistance.This is why the pirate ship meta is a thing. But then maybe that's what anet want. Slow drawn out fights where neither side really engages. That might be their idea of fun...In which case I say give us a Kickstarter so we can fund a proper wvw dev!

Pirateship has been around way before Hot.Players decide to play this way,you cant blame anet on how people decide to form a meta.I dont think its fun either,i remember these boring ass Death stare contests for 10m straight with aoe bombing on own locations and kiting forever untill one guys downs and the guy getting aoe bombed..And rinse repeat untill everyone died 20m later,really fun for the few melee classes in there aswell.Its the most boring thing,but if people think this is fun then so be it.Also one of the reasons i never really blob anymore unless its to defend an object,its a dull aoe condi/cc/ spamm fest with no skill to be found.

[Sethanon Stormrage.6721]

@Caedmon.6798 said:Pirateship has been around way before Hot.Players decide to play this way,you cant blame anet on how people decide to form a meta.I dont think its fun either,i remember these boring kitten Death stare contests for 10m straight with aoe bombing on own locations and kiting forever untill one guys downs and the guy getting aoe bombed..And rinse repeat untill everyone died 20m later,really fun for the few melee classes in there aswell.Its the most boring thing,but if people think this is fun then so be it.Also one of the reasons i never really blob anymore unless its to defend an object,its a dull aoe condi/cc/ spamm fest with no skill to be found.

Tbh pirate shipping pre hot (more like turtling) was really down to commanders than necessity. I would say more like a lack of commanding experience than the need to pirate ship. Decent commands smashed anyone who tried that tbh. But pirate ship became a must in hot when condis got too strong. That got pulled back into line towards the end of hot. But the boon hate now has made it too op again.

It's not a hard thing for anet to fix.. it just seems like they don't want to / don't care

[Caedmon.6798]

@Sethanon Stormrage.6721 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:Pirateship has been around way before Hot.Players decide to play this way,you cant blame anet on how people decide to form a meta.I dont think its fun either,i remember these boring kitten Death stare contests for 10m straight with aoe bombing on own locations and kiting forever untill one guys downs and the guy getting aoe bombed..And rinse repeat untill everyone died 20m later,really fun for the few melee classes in there aswell.Its the most boring thing,but if people think this is fun then so be it.Also one of the reasons i never really blob anymore unless its to defend an object,its a dull aoe condi/cc/ spamm fest with no skill to be found.

Tbh pirate shipping pre hot (more like turtling) was really down to commanders than necessity. I would say more like a lack of commanding experience than the need to pirate ship. Decent commands smashed anyone who tried that tbh. But pirate ship became a must in hot when condis got too strong. That got pulled back into line towards the end of hot. But the boon hate now has made it too op again.

It's not a hard thing for anet to fix.. it just seems like they don't want to / don't care

I dont think its necessary now either,people just choose to go cheese over melee trains.I'd wish anet would do something to steer people away this meta aswell but then i think people will still find ways to keep going on pirateship.Its the most low risk high reward playstyle,people like it easy mode,people like to go cheese.Not much anet can do about this i reckon without completely nerfing aoe bombing and condis to hell.

[ThomasC.1056]

I understand there's a trend for condies with PoF, and I'm using trend rather than issue because it's things the game purposely brings (it's not bugs).

Now, before I jump on my chair yelling neurf neurf neurf neurf neurf like an angry hog, I just want to wait for some little things like :

• The compulsory "adjustements" that'll come with quarterly patches. What will exactly remain ?
• The new builds that will be brought up. It's only been several days since PoF is out, so I'm guessing the "optimal" builds still aren't widespread. For now, I'm still considering WvW is settling in HoT state + sub-optimal PoF.
• In a nutshell, the next "equilibrium" state.

Then, I've heard words that heavily condi-coloured elite (like scourge or firebrand) also have really viable power builds. Also it has to be remembered that lots of necros already played condis as a reapers, and mesmers already played condis as chronos. The new elites bring new playstyles, but don't seem to change fundamentally anything else.

From my personal small scale experience, 80% of my encounters still are power specs, mostly with ever-evading thieves that prevent any condi application (or hit), and permastun builds. I also noticed it's heavily server-depending, and group depending. So I think the best thing to do is calm the horses, and see what comes out.

[Sethanon Stormrage.6721]

@Caedmon.6798 said:I dont think its necessary now either,people just choose to go cheese over melee trains.I'd wish anet would do something to steer people away this meta aswell but then i think people will still find ways to keep going on pirateship.Its the most low risk high reward playstyle,people like it easy mode,people like to go cheese.Not much anet can do about this i reckon without completely nerfing aoe bombing and condis to kitten.

That is exactly it though. It's human nature to take the easy route. Everyone wants an easy win. We need anet to force people away from that. But it seems anet are happy to let people go cheese mode.Ofc it is the players who are to blame. But anet are the only ones who can control the player base.

If people still want to pirate ship that's fine. But give me a valid option to beat it. Hell just make stability unstrippable and revert it to the old style and I'll be happy to use that to beat pirate shipping.

[ThomasC.1056]

@Sethanon Stormrage.6721 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:I dont think its necessary now either,people just choose to go cheese over melee trains.I'd wish anet would do something to steer people away this meta aswell but then i think people will still find ways to keep going on pirateship.Its the most low risk high reward playstyle,people like it easy mode,people like to go cheese.Not much anet can do about this i reckon without completely nerfing aoe bombing and condis to kitten.

That is exactly it though. It's human nature to take the easy route. Everyone wants an easy win. We need anet to force people away from that. But it seems anet are happy to let people go cheese mode. Ofc it is the players who are to blame. But anet are the only ones who can control the player base.

This is what actually bothers me the most in all those "nerf condi" threads. I know how condi builds can be infuriating to fight, and I still don't know what's the most frustrating between a 20s condi melting death, and a 4s powerstun defeat.

And then, I remember : It is just a game !

Yes ! People will take the easy route and the easy win, because it's a choya-ing game, and players want to have a good time ! Though of course, when there's a fight, the losing side usually don't have a good time. All the "elitist" talk about "power = skilled play" or "ANet should corner players into whatever" is worth less than springer's little brown balls. It's a game, and even if it's a competitive mode (in the sense of players are fighting each other) there's a maximal training degree that draws the frontier between "game" and "sport".

I don't want ANet to corner me into anything, or force me away from what I enjoy playing (and I enjoy playing both condis and power). The only thing ANet has to do, and currently fails to do in my opinion, is create an environement that allows enough build diversity and efficiency, instead of the current "Play that build or insta-die" fashion.

[Odokuro.5049]

As I recommended in a different post on the old forums, this is my ideas on how to level out conditions.

1. Put ICD's on condition application, no AA or spammable attack putting several stacks or more of conditions over and over.
2. When it comes to skills/spells that clear conditions, have those increase the duration that you are not susceptible to condition application (sort of like a minor-resistance boon).
3. Have your toons Vitality play a role in reducing condition damage, like Toughness is for power damage.
4. Have the most potent conditions take priority when being cleansed, so whichever ones are doing the most damage such as, Fire/Confusion/Torment/Bleeds ect. they would be removed first, leaving the not so serious cover-conditions to run out.
5. Make the first applier the only applier, meaning, if you have a condi-DD death blossoming over you applying conditions, and some other guy/gal tries to condi bomb you as well, they can't apply more conditions unless they are ones that are not being applied.

[casantis.3106]

Well, Anet just answer the topics that they want, and avoid topics about balance and other major problems. Better to not have high expectations.

[Sethanon Stormrage.6721]

@ThomasC.1056 said:snip

You are being a tad dramatic there really.No one is asking anet to force you into playing something you don't want. What we are asking for is balance. You state it in your last line. All we want is diversity and the ability to play multiple styles. But atm we are forced to play Condi to be competitive.

There are solutions such as Condi caps. This is a method anet could use to control the player base. And by control I mean bring condis in line so people can't cheese the game mode by running an op build that lets then nuke players from range without being at risk themselves.

Sure it's just a game. But most people prefer to enjoy games...

While some people exaggerate the amount of people who quit the game because of the current meta. You can be sure there still is a lot who have quit because of it. The power meta was not more skilful. It just gave people a chance to fight back

I'm a commander and I have been since the game release. I've played and commanded through every meta. And there is nothing more frustrating than being forced to pirate ship waiting for a gap so I can actually engage the enemy. Because if I don't wait I will melt before I get close to a single enemy player. And now with the boon hate I have to wait for the gap then bait the boon strip then hope there's another gap I can use to engage before I get nuked by condis again.

The game mode has alot of potential. Even to an esport level in terms of gvg. If only anet put more effort into it.

[Jana.6831]

@Sethanon Stormrage.6721 said:The power meta was not more skilful. It just gave people a chance to fight backWell, with that it is more skillful. The game before HoT required more skill - but even then it was pretty broken because the traitmerge didn't go too well. And because taking the stats away from the traitlines left us with too much damage all around. I think I 2 shotted a thief with 40k right after that patch.

Nonetheless: I am one of those who quit and my buddy quit as well. No idea how many of my friendlist left without saying goodbye. And it's not that I wouldn't have bought PoF - I would have, regardless that I'm not interested in any of its content - it's just that I don't have faith in anet anymore. I have been pretty frustrated the past 2 years since HoT and have absolutely no intend to spend the next 2 years frustrated.I am pretty sure that they know a lot of stuff went wrong and they could indeed at least put a condition cap into wvw, but for some reason they hesitate.

[zinkz.7045]

@Sethanon Stormrage.6721 said:

@ThomasC.1056 said:snip

You are being a tad dramatic there really.No one is asking anet to force you into playing something you don't want. What we are asking for is balance. You state it in your last line. All we want is diversity and the ability to play multiple styles.

Now I am not aiming this at you personally, but you did claim "we", the above is total BS, where were the complaints when you had a total power meta and the extent of condi was warriors using condi food to up their immobilize time, where were the complaints over build/class diversity for most of the game when half the classes were subpar (and still are) whilst guards for example have always been vastly overrepesentated, the answer to that is largely nowhere.

And the reason for that is WvW baddies do not give a flying toss about diversity or multiple styles, they just want to run round in a melee ball and play their style, and "diversity" only becomes an issue if their style becomes effected.

While some people exaggerate the amount of people who quit the game because of the current meta.

In the grand scheme of things it is nearly irrelevant, most of the big guilds/alliances (at least on EU) quit this game in the first 2 years, back when we had metas you would like (no real diversity of course but I guess you didn't complain then), which is why you are playing a gamemode that has basically had server merges, and even with 5-8 servers in a matchup has less activity than the old gold tier matchups had with just 3 servers (at least on EU).

The game mode has alot of potential. Even to an esport level in terms of gvg. If only anet put more effort into it.

The game mode has zero potential, it is five years old, fundamentally as an RvR mode it is badly flawed and it is pretty clear Anet have dumped ideas of a meaningful overhaul so will only ever tiinker around the edges.

As for "GvG" being a e-sport level, please, stop making me laugh, the sPvP in this game had no chance as an e-sport even when they spent 3 years balancing around it, because the skill level in this game is mediocre at best (and that was with the added skill cap of conquest the combat alone is not even mediocre skill wise), visually PvP was considered terrible to view as an "e-sport", GvG just takes that and makes it ten times worse.

[apharma.3741]

It’s not just the damaging conditions it’s the control conditions like immobilise, cripple and chill spam that came with HoT and has persisted. You end up having to burn cleanses to be able to move and avoid being in a bad position and end up with nothing to deal with damaging conditions a lot of the time. Zergs are a fustercluck of frontline melee balls and seeing who can get their skills off before everyone lags so hard they die because all they can do is run and auto. You’re also mistaken if you think power burst isn’t insane as well, I can take off 15-17k with a shatter burst combo on glass, the only reason it’s remotely fine is because many classes run with auto protection procs on hit or stun which means I lose 5k damage straight off it, leaving you with time to heal up and counter. Other classes might not have that kind of burst but they can sustain high amounts of damage during the fight making high sustain likewise needed to fight them.

It’s basically an arms race and we’re at early atom bomb phases.