More Condi in WvW

[Korgov.7645]

@Scorci.3250 said:

@Korgov.7645 said:

If you choose to eat 20k power damage you are downed immediately. If you choose to pick up 20k worth of conditions you still have option to mitigate the damage during the next few seconds. What is the issue with that?

cleanse is RNG and that kind of damage would be through 3 or 4 different types of condition? not every class has 100% condi clear buttons

There is no RNG in cleanse. "For generic condition removal, the most recently applied condition or conditions will be removed first." source https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition

If you cannot cleanse the most dangerous condition then you got out played. Condition players apply cover conditions on top of the most important ones.

[XenesisII.1540]

@Korgov.7645 said:There is no RNG in cleanse. "For generic condition removal, the most recently applied condition or conditions will be removed first." source https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ConditionIf you cannot cleanse the most dangerous condition then you got out played. Condition players apply cover conditions on top of the most important ones.

Got outplayed by an auto spam condition./slow clap.Great system.

[Scorci.3250]

@Korgov.7645 said:

If you cannot cleanse the most dangerous condition then you got out played. Condition players apply cover conditions on top of the most important ones.

this is hilariouseven more reason that there needs to be more active defense versus conditions

[Spurnshadow.3678]

OMG! WvW is more than 1v1. It's large group combat. Sure there's roamers, but that's a very small part of what the game mode is designed for. Stop it with class A vs B crap.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

Reposting from another thread I made.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/2861/the-central-issue-regarding-boon-corruption#latest

It dawned on me that a major issue I have with scourge. Maybe some of you realized this long ago, but it lingered ambiguously in the back of my mind lacking definition. On top of the central issue of boon corruption which I outlined above, there's another issue with scourge and how it is completely abusing the base mechanics of GW2. Forget the fact that it has way too much boon corruption. Like way too much. In the past, when most skills corrupt a boon, it has a mirror condition it gets replaced with. For example,

Aegis = BurningFury = BlindMight = WeaknessProtection = VunerabilityQuickness = slowRegen = poisonResistance = ChilledRetaliation = ConfusionStability = FearSwiftness = CrippleVigor = Bleeding

This made sense. It also added another level to fighting. The scourge throws that all out the window, as every corruption, which is with almost every skill, some multiple, and some pulsing, turns any boon into torment (the second hardest hitting condi), and when traited increased torment damage ( a whopping 33%) AND burning. So now, the list looks like this:

Aegis = torment+ & burningFury = torment+ & burningMight = torment+ & burningProtection = torment+ & burningQuickness = torment+ & burningRegen = torment+ & burningResistance = torment+ & burningRetaliation = torment+ & burningStability = torment+ & burningSwiftness = torment+ & burningVigor = torment+ & burning

There's something inherently wrong about that. And it's completely spammable. Not only is every boon, even swiftness ( I mean, what did swiftness ever do to you?) gets turned into very punishing conditions. It's a funnel of condi damage that, again, like in my original post, we have very little control over. Even the spellbreaker, while it does some added damage when removing a boon, I don't think it's as punishing as this, but still falls under this paradigm of creating damage, all be it, power, with every boon.

Seriously, Anet, how is this fair and balanced?

[kathy.8291]

It really isnt fun anymore in WvW especially if your a small guild of 13 and you come across a BLOB that all they do is condi on you; your basically insta down. It would be nice to see a balance between power and condi but I guess they havent come up with a medium yet.

[Phantom.5389]

@SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

@Phantom.5389 said:-snip-

WvW is

full

of terrible players. Most of which come here to make their complaints without any real understanding of mechanics or balance and refuse to learn when they're given legitimate answers.

I could make a video of me using my full glass Soulbeast killing people in

half

the time it takes you in that video. Not because I'm good. But because most people are awful and are too slow to react to attacks that can literally cut their health clean in half.

Have you heard of "Reckless Dodge" by the way? It's a minor trait in the Strength tree for Warrior. It can crit upwards of 8k with enough stacks of Might. That means you could be holding Fireworks and 3 - 4 shotting people by dodging near them. Guess Berserker gear needs to be removed and Power damage needs to be nerfed across all professions, right?

Except that you would be glassy and could not facetank a lot of things (except the EP duration) if you run a reckless dodge only build while wearing full zerker without a weapon. I would say that a firework full zerker (stats) warrior would be really squishy and won't work as well as a firework condi dire thief.

P.S. if your average reckless dodge is around 8k. I praise you because my full zerker core warrior build average is more like a 3.5-4k average. 8k average? Maybe on a full glass ele right, but seriously I rarely see full glass fresh air ele anymore (high skill level needed in order to properly play such a build).

[Jana.6831]

A suggestion: Make some videos about what large scale is like right now so anet understand better what's happening. And make it fair: Record some significant fights in which you either win or lose (or a mix of both) and don't over exaggerate "oohhh I ran a squad full of zerker thieves and rangers and we lost!! combat is soo unfair!" ;)

[Shibas.8693]

@Spurnshadow.3678 said:Seriously, Anet, how is this fair and balanced?

Not that i am happy with this, but A-Net does not see WvW as a competitive mode.

Best proof is that your can use stat booster were their Tooltip already says that you will lose it if you enter competitive PvP or raids.

From this point of view arenanet has no reason to respond to balance issues.

And only as a side note.

If you put 10 holo smiths with pbm in your group and let them sneak with stealth in the opponent zerg and blast them up you would have an similar result as a Condi bomb.

Is it harder to execute? Yes of course.Is it easy to counter? Maybe.

But it shows, the main problem is not condition damage, it's spike damage and this was always a problem in wvw. There is a reason why we stick together in a group. It's the only way to get not killed by this damage spikes and as long we have not a maximum damage cap this will not change.

The [stability]-[boon rip]-[cc]¬\ train is another reason why it is harder to evade spike damage.

The only way i see to change this is to nerf wvw overall damage to increase the value of support and tactic. Otherwise a class change is only a meta change and not a balance fix.

[GutterRat.1269]

@Shibas.8693 said:. . . the main problem is not condition damage, it's spike damage and this was always a problem in wvw. . . .. . . The only way i see to change this is to nerf wvw overall damage to increase the value of support and tactic.I agree that the spike damage has been ridiculous since Hot or arguably even since the pre-HoT trait rework, but HoT introduced so much block-evade-invuln bs that if the damage was nerfed it'd be turtle guard vs turtle guard. With some specs having a full heal on a low cd, you will never down them without either spike power dmg or relentless condition spam.

I am not sure they could walk this back even if they wanted to. It would have to begin with nerfing HoT and PoF elites to be on the level with core (NOT buffing core to their level) and that's just not in the cards anymore. They've quite simply ruined this game mode with nothing but sheer incompetence.

[Jana.6831]

@Shibas.8693 said:Best proof is that your can use stat booster were their Tooltip already says that you will lose it if you enter competitive PvP or raids.You can use foods in raids. PvP also doesn't use armor stats, so it is a differnet game mode anyway.

But it shows, the main problem is not condition damage, it's spike damage and this was always a problem in wvw. There is a reason why we stick together in a group. It's the only way to get not killed by this damage spikes and as long we have not a maximum damage cap this will not change.No, both are a problem. Just that 'high spike damage' is easier to reduce.

There was actually a time when we ran around alone - that was from April 15th 2014 to June 23th 2015 and according to most who are still here it's the time they had the most fun (condis were still OP then though).

[Swamurabi.7890]

@TyPin.9860 said:

@Sethanon Stormrage.6721 said:I understand all you people saying you dont struggle with condi on x spec when roaming and that's great but id like to point out that as is often stated... WvWvW is not balanced around solo or small scale combat.. it's supposed to be balanced around large scale. That's why the main point of this thread is focused on how op condis are in large scale fights. And why ideas to solve the issue for large scale combat is required.

I hear this claim a lot. Can you point to a statement of Anet, where they actually state that WvW is supposed to be balanced like that? I don't mean that in a condescending way, I really do not know of such a statement.

For me WvW was always an unbalanced Server vs Server kind of deal. I do not often roll with a zerg, but when I do, I do it on Reaper (did not really try out the scourge as of yet) and I don't feel that conditions are actually that much of an issue there. I can cleanse, my allies can cleanse and dealing with conditions isn't any harder than to deal with getting smacked in the face by a power melee train, when I am not really paying attention.

WvW is not balanced. Period.

It's not balanced in the number of players on a side each skirmish.It's not balanced in the number of players on a side in a timezone.It's not balanced in the number of players on a side in a week.

It's not balanced in any skills, traits, runes, armor, sigils or utilities with one exception: Epidemic

sPvP is balanced with respect to sPvPPvE is balanced wit respect to PvEWvW uses PvE skill balance rules.

[psizone.8437]

They need to nerf some of the condi heavy classes but on the other hand, giving certain classes access to near permanent resistance is a terrible counter.

As much as I love Spellbreaker, the amount of Resistance it can have is insane. It only really punishes weaker condition classes, especially those without an insane amount of boon removal/corruption.

[Shroud.2307]

@Jana.6831 said:A suggestion: Make some videos about what large scale is like right now so anet understand better what's happening. And make it fair: Record some significant fights in which you either win or lose (or a mix of both) and don't over exaggerate "oohhh I ran a squad full of zerker thieves and rangers and we lost!! combat is soo unfair!" ;)

I'll work on that at reset tonight.

I always run squadless, without TS and on a roaming build. If I'm not getting blown up and I'm still full pushing when our tag does, I can only imagine the kind of excuses people will come up with.

Forewarning: The quality of my videos tend to be horrible for some reason so if I do manage to get any good footage, expect potato quality.

[Jana.6831]

@SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:I always run squadless, without TS and on a roaming build. If I'm not getting blown up and I'm still full pushing when our tag does, I can only imagine the kind of excuses people will come up with.

I did that for four years - you're not the only one ;)

Hope some more will make videos.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

Anet added conditions to be a SUPPORT to damage, which was fine. They then hugely buffed conditions without thinking how that would affect game modes. The difference between application and removal is INSANE. You can remove 5 conditions and then have another 5 applied with within a second or 2. Only select few builds/classes can really stand a chance against this sheer constant application combined with getting "condi bombed" as well.

Condition builds have needed to be HUGELY nerfed for a long time. Why play power when you can go bunker condi, take very little damage and still kill people easily!? Adding bunker condi stats was a HUGE mistake, making condition damage reliant on a single stat was another huge mistake. Anet are still stuck in the thought that conditions are supportive.

When it comes to WvW i think conditions should get at least a 40-50% decrease in damage, if they can make traits that work differently depending on game mode, then they can do this. They should also remove the Bunker Condition stat combos or make condition Damage reliant on more stats. Another option, make Toughness reduce condition damage. It is clear they won't fix the application Vs removal and things like Resistance only work if you are certain classes or in groups.

[psizone.8437]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

When it comes to WvW i think conditions should get at least a 40-50% decrease in damage, if they can make traits that work differently depending on game mode, then they can do this. They should also remove the Bunker Condition stat combos or make condition Damage reliant on more stats. Another option, make Toughness reduce condition damage. It is clear they won't fix the application Vs removal and things like Resistance only work if you are certain classes or in groups.

They really should make it so that condition damage works like power damage. Nerf the base damage and have them crit and scale off of ferocity so you need precision and ferocity to deal decent damage, just like power builds do.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@psizone.8437 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

When it comes to WvW i think conditions should get at least a 40-50% decrease in damage, if they can make traits that work differently depending on game mode, then they can do this. They should also remove the Bunker Condition stat combos or make condition Damage reliant on more stats. Another option, make Toughness reduce condition damage. It is clear they won't fix the application Vs removal and things like Resistance only work if you are certain classes or in groups.

They really should make it so that condition damage works like power damage. Nerf the base damage and have them crit and scale off of ferocity so you need precision and ferocity to deal decent damage, just like power builds do.

That would be a good idea as well, that could get people to go with Rampager stats as well. Though it would need to change Renegade, they can get nearly 100% crit chance due to traits and only need a few bits of gear with precision.

on top of fixing Condition damage, they really also need to fix the mindless boon spam. Fighting someone who is so heavily reliant on spamming boons and being someone who cant remove or corrupt them is SO annoying

[Strider Pj.2193]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

When it comes to WvW i think conditions should get at least a 40-50% decrease in damage, if they can make traits that work differently depending on game mode, then they can do this. They should also remove the Bunker Condition stat combos or make condition Damage reliant on more stats. Another option, make Toughness reduce condition damage. It is clear they won't fix the application Vs removal and things like Resistance only work if you are certain classes or in groups.

I think it should be one OR the other. An effective drop of 40-50% would bring the damage part with re application more in line with power. Would also make cleanses more meaningful from a DPS perspective.

But doing that AND removing the bunker stats would only make it a wet noodle.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:I think it should be one OR the other. An effective drop of 40-50% would bring the damage part with re application more in line with power. Would also make cleanses more meaningful from a DPS perspective.

But doing that AND removing the bunker stats would only make it a wet noodle.

Why would it? considering their damage relies on a single stat, Vs the 3 stats of damage builds. It would be like people running full soliders and still melting peoples faces inside a few seconds. If people dont take Precision and ferocity in power builds then they wont deal much damage at all.

[SWI.4127]

@psizone.8437 said:They need to nerf some of the condi heavy classes but on the other hand, giving certain classes access to near permanent resistance is a terrible counter.

As much as I love Spellbreaker, the amount of Resistance it can have is insane. It only really punishes weaker condition classes, especially those without an insane amount of boon removal/corruption.

I completely agree this mechanic is really dumb. I'm not the most experienced WvW player by any means, but from a design standpoint it seems to make no sense. I would not be opposed to them re-working the interaction with conditions and resistance so it's not all or nothing like it is now. Players who are sick of condi are saying it does way too much damage, and there are too many of them to cleanse. Players who like condi builds are saying there is one boon that completely counters every condi out there. Both groups are right, and it's bad design.

[LetoII.3782]

Did someone go over how to dodge or block reaper shouts skillfully and I missed it?

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

@LetoII.3782 said:Did someone go over how to dodge or block reaper shouts skillfully and I missed it?

Idk, just use double generosity runes, rite? oh wait wut?

[Ronnie Hu.1694]

when i check my combat log why i died wvw , i just saw burning burning and burning...

[Sethanon Stormrage.6721]

@SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

@Sethanon Stormrage.6721 said:

@SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:The amount of people that refuse to learn or improve in these constant threads since the release of this game is astounding. If people can't have their instant gratification, they band together and pretend to speak for everyone like they're the savior we've all been asking for.

You can preach your complaints and write a bible about the purity of Power damage but the only person you're convincing is yourself and anyone else who's too narrow minded to read beyond their own short comings.

I've just taken down the inner wall of bay. I want to push in with my group but the choke is filled with aoe and boon strips. The enemy blob just standing there spamming the choke.

Pre boon hate i could push that with cleanses. Now with boon hate. It's constant cc and Condi spam. Can't pop stab nor resistance.

What would you do there? Go on.. educate me.

Sure boon hate is as much to blame as Condi. But they can't turn around and nerf a new elite just in the game. So condis need to be the target.

If it was power I can build to tank that and have the utilities to make the push. I can't keep up with the Condi spam no matter how many cleanses we build for.

Not pushing it would be a good start.

The boon hate just means people are going to have to get smarter. You can't deathball everything anymore which means you'll have to kite, bait and think.

I do agree that the amount of boonstrips that are currently floating around in zergs make conditions significantly more threatening but I don't think it's something that needs to be fixed.

I spent most of last night watching guilds pushing in to each other and dying because they weren't adjusting their strategies. They were practicing, but they weren't adapting.

I don't know what the answer is to this current situation but I can say for certain that brute force is no longer the solution. Breaking in to smaller groups of 5 - 15 during large scale fights may be what needs to be done, maybe not. The real problem is that people are lazy and would much rather megablob everything and mash all their skills while being practically invulnerable to damage 70% of the time.

I'm sorry but although I do see that the current state of boonstrips and conditions is chaotic, I don't think it's game breaking. It just means a new era of combat is on the rise and those who cling to the past will be the ones left behind. Everything can be conquered with perseverance and evolution.

So if I don't push in to bay like you suggest. How am I supposed to cap it? There is zero reason for the enemy to come out of inner bay. Especially if I have the wall down. So how do I cap it if I never push in?

So basically your solution is pirate shipping. Or splitting into small groups. (Which woukd suit guilds but not pugs, who are the main player base in wvw). Pirate shipping is part of the complaint in this thread. It is boring and requires no skill whatsoever and only serves to drag out fights for no reason. I don't want the melee ball back. At this point I'd settle for how it was a few weeks ago. Where I could push enough to do damage but condis where still deadly.

Now it's just pirate ship or die. (unless the enemy is stupid, which is usually just pug commands with no1 on comms)