Why Condi thief is bad for the game

[Vieux P.1238]

@babazhook.6805 said:The conclusions are not supported by the facts. It claimed it because TRAITS are adding the Conditions rather then the weapon skills and suggested this not the same as other classes. There a number of TRAITS across all professions that add to Condition damage. As example Warrior can add conditions everytime they get a stun. They can increase conditions added with critical strikes.

s/s warrior adds conditions on evry single one of the attacks in the AA chain. They can then add conditions with savage leap #2 impale #4 and riposte #5. By taking arms they then add more bleeds on crit while garnering longer durations (just like potent poison) and higher condition power. How is that different than what the thief can do? Where something like Venoms goes on a 30 second cooldown, Bleed on Crit has no such thing nor does confusion on stun. Where the base duration of the poison off the IMMOB for thief 4 seconds and 2 seconds for dagger trainingy , bloodlust has a 5 second base bleed and the AA bleeds last 8 seconds

This is not a Burst issue or too many traits allowing conditions. In comparative terms Warrior can load up more condition stacks based on weapon skills and traits. The thief advantage is the same one they have across the board due to the nature of the class and that is it hard to hit and pin down.

Well we know what you play. lol.. So decided to try the build myself.. I really a noob to thief.. But i am a vet since the last 5 years on this game. My keyboard coordination is really good. & i can tell you right away... this is one of the most cheesy builds iv ever played since lauch. I just need to keep dodging & dodging then keep away for a sec then back to dodging & dodging.. a bit of AA & my target is filled up with condis. & can't keep up on clearing them. If he does i just pop more. It's ridiculous.. There's absolutely no skill's involved. The OP's is right. All the damage come from traits. You really need minimal play on ur skill's. This is beyond ridiculous. Funny when i play my mesmers & get downed by players using the same build, they got the audacity to call them selves pros. NO! this is not pro playing or skill playing. OP's is right 100% thief needs to be changed

[Crab Fear.1624]

Yes...yes....

moar teef nerf requests....

didnt say nerf? oh i meant delete them from the game lol....

[Rufo.3716]

Thief in general as it is right now is bad for the game. The crazy amount of stealth combined with all those stupid ports and movement are just plain dumb.

[Jalal.6783]

I knew it was kitten but seeing this by god what a kitten mess we have here. What were they even thinking?

[Jalal.6783]

@Gamble.4580 said:

@Arlowslol.1974 said:

@Gamble.4580 said:Condi thf is a great noob friendly build for new thfa for pvp, but a high skilled dps thf will I packed game allot more as well as take the Condi thf out of the game.

a normal condi thief can ruin the hole game of a good power thief

Not seen that ever in any plat and above games, d/d condi can be annoying but I won't waste my time I will leave them on their 1v1 decap far +1 mid kill a loan walker +1 far kill a boss make a cup of tea then when that thf finally kills the guy I will jump him and one burst him dead.

What? are you kidding? I'm plat 2 and I see this build at least once every 3 games and more often than not, every other game and this is just for the enemy team. I'm sure my teams probably run it about as often as the enemy does so realistically, close to every game there is one.

[babazhook.6805]

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The conclusions are not supported by the facts. It claimed it because TRAITS are adding the Conditions rather then the weapon skills and suggested this not the same as other classes. There a number of TRAITS across all professions that add to Condition damage. As example Warrior can add conditions everytime they get a stun. They can increase conditions added with critical strikes.

s/s warrior adds conditions on evry single one of the attacks in the AA chain. They can then add conditions with savage leap #2 impale #4 and riposte #5. By taking arms they then add more bleeds on crit while garnering longer durations (just like potent poison) and higher condition power. How is that different than what the thief can do? Where something like Venoms goes on a 30 second cooldown, Bleed on Crit has no such thing nor does confusion on stun. Where the base duration of the poison off the IMMOB for thief 4 seconds and 2 seconds for dagger trainingy , bloodlust has a 5 second base bleed and the AA bleeds last 8 seconds

This is not a Burst issue or too many traits allowing conditions. In comparative terms Warrior can load up more condition stacks based on weapon skills and traits. The thief advantage is the same one they have across the board due to the nature of the class and that is it hard to hit and pin down.

Well we know what you play. lol.. So decided to try the build myself.. I really a noob to thief.. But i am a vet since the last 5 years on this game. My keyboard coordination is really good. & i can tell you right away... this is one of the most cheesy builds iv ever played since lauch. I just need to keep dodging & dodging then keep away for a sec then back to dodging & dodging.. a bit of AA & my target is filled up with condis. & can't keep up on clearing them. If he does i just pop more. It's ridiculous.. There's absolutely no skill's involved. The OP's is right. All the damage come from traits. You really need minimal play on ur skill's. This is beyond ridiculous. Funny when i play my mesmers & get downed by players using the same build, they got the audacity to call them selves pros. NO! this is not pro playing or skill playing. OP's is right 100% thief needs to be changed

No you do NOT know what I play. I do not play a s/d condition thief. P/d condition outperfroms them damage wise.I do have a power thief s/d . . Yous aid the OP was right nd then pointed to all the ports and evades you had available to you. Those ports and evades have NOTHING to do with taking Condition adds in the traits. They are inherent to s/d thief.

One more time. Using a warrior I get as many bleeds added via TRAITS to my weapon skills and Have the advantage of my weapon skills all having Conditions added outside # 3. One more time the reason that thief build works as it does is not due to the amount of conditions as in comparative terms other condition builds add more. it because the s/d Thief hard to attack.

As to utilities, a number of classes have utilities that add conditions. That they might add them DIRECTLY rather then to weapon first and then to target is immaterial . it still a condition add.

[Gamble.4580]

@Jalal.6783 said:

@Gamble.4580 said:

@Arlowslol.1974 said:

@Gamble.4580 said:Condi thf is a great noob friendly build for new thfa for pvp, but a high skilled dps thf will I packed game allot more as well as take the Condi thf out of the game.

a normal condi thief can ruin the hole game of a good power thief

Not seen that ever in any plat and above games, d/d condi can be annoying but I won't waste my time I will leave them on their 1v1 decap far +1 mid kill a loan walker +1 far kill a boss make a cup of tea then when that thf finally kills the guy I will jump him and one burst him dead.

What? are you kidding? I'm plat 2 and I see this build at least once every 3 game and usually ever 2 games and this is just for the enemy team. I'm sure my teams probably run it about as often as the enemy does so realistically, it has probably in close to every game

EU or Na?

[Solaerin.8635]

Look man, I agree with you that condi thief is bad for the game in its current state, but how are you going to totally dismiss steal as this unimportant skill and then talk in depth about traits like dagger training and pressure striking? You don't even take those

Condi thief is just like the other specs you listed where there are specific skills you need to avoid. The problem is that those skills happen to be steal and spider venom, which are instant-cast abilities with zero counter-play. The super important, must-avoid skills are unavoidable if the thief player has a pulse

[Gamble.4580]

Yes it has a nice condi burst that's hard to avoid but you know why we don't cry about condi thf? That's because core grd rapes it war mes eng can beat it once they understand the class and can beat it 100% when they relize how they beat it the first time and every thf can counter it and rng laughs at it. Only necro has to put the 110% in to beat it. Condi thf is a noob killer but it's not over powered as it's soo easy countered once you know how. If it's killing you I hate to say it but it's a you issue no game, look at your build and make a condi thf play it and watch how people kill you and how they did it. Mes is overpowered, eng cc chain is over powered, wars fishing skills is over power, grd has to many condi clear with to much dps, I could go on but I won't as I feel this season has been the most balanced it's ever been even rev is shining at mo. If there is a patch I hope they only touch rev.

[Alatar.7364]

@Gamble.4580 said:every thf can counter it and rng laughs at it.

What?

@Gamble.4580 said:I feel this season has been the most balanced it's ever been

What?

[Sereath.1428]

It's again an issue of skills having no casting times.

And again the biggest offenders by far are thieves and mesmers.Add them casting times or tone down all those skills, choose.

[Gamble.4580]

This season has been amazing you know why, I am seeing only 1 mes a game I am seeing grds on different builds, I see a bloody rev in every other game what is 1million % better than last season. Necro play reaper and scourge, I am seeing rangers do well with different roles they can play with fishing point holding and team play, thf has more than 1 meta that makes it exciting as u don't know what build they going to hit you with. And I have seen more than fb bunkers shining I. E ele and scrapper, I was bloody shocked to see how well scrapper is doing vs this meta. So yes I do feel it's balance

[Alatar.7364]

@Gamble.4580 said:This season has been amazing you know why, I am seeing only 1 mes a game I am seeing grds on different builds, I see a bloody rev in every other game what is 1million % better than last season. Necro play reaper and scourge, I am seeing rangers do well with different roles they can play with fishing point holding and team play, thf has more than 1 meta that makes it exciting as u don't know what build they going to hit you with. And I have seen more than fb bunkers shining I. E ele and scrapper, I was bloody shocked to see how well scrapper is doing vs this meta. So yes I do feel it's balance

You confuse build diversity with balance. Scourge has two builds, both over performing, Mes (Mirage) has two, both op.What does number of builds have to do with profession balance?Again, do not confuse diversity with balance.

[BeLZedaR.4790]

I think mirage and scourge suffer from the same issues really...but yeah that’s what it takes for a condi build to be meta now. Try playing condi rev, you just can’t rack enough damage before you die because things have too many cleanses for a build that has limited access to damaging conditions.Especially firebrand, can’t even scratch them even if they tank it all.Cleanses need to be lowered across the board along with the overkill amount of cover conditions on some of these builds.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

@Rufo.3716 said:Thief in general as it is right now is bad for the game. The crazy amount of stealth combined with all those stupid ports and movement are just plain dumb.

condi thief doesnt even stealth that often ... plz if you could stay on topic . Thanks

[Falan.1839]

Well explained, good video. Even though I'd severely disagree with the statement that mirage condi bombs come from Shatters mostly, just take a look at the axe and torch and how many torment/confu/burn they apply from minor skills. But that's not really the topic here.

[Menzo.2185]

No class is more OP than that.

[Synstylae.2751]

Here you have to know that OP posts frequently of reaper topics and videos of thieves being "unfair". I personally have very few problems when facing any type of necro with my thief, deadeye or condi. Instead of crying how thieves are "unfair", how about you start crying how your profession sucks. You just want to nerf thief profession in general, just because your profession has hard time with them. Somehow condi thief is "bad for the game", but condi mirages are just fine.

[Math.5123]

@"Synstylae.2751" said:Here you have to know that OP posts frequently of reaper topics and videos of thieves being "unfair". I personally have very few problems when facing any type of necro with my thief, deadeye or condi. Instead of crying how thieves are "unfair", how about you start crying how your profession sucks. You just want to nerf thief profession in general, just because your profession has hard time with them. Somehow condi thief is "bad for the game", but condi mirages are just fine.

He clearly states in the video that mirage suffers from many of the same problems.

[zoopop.5630]

@"Synstylae.2751" said:Here you have to know that OP posts frequently of reaper topics and videos of thieves being "unfair". I personally have very few problems when facing any type of necro with my thief, deadeye or condi. Instead of crying how thieves are "unfair", how about you start crying how your profession sucks. You just want to nerf thief profession in general, just because your profession has hard time with them. Somehow condi thief is "bad for the game", but condi mirages are just fine.

no...... that build in general along with the entire condi mirage builds are aids/suck for this game. While were at it we can toss P/P deadeye still being aids for this game, anything that allows "spamming" of any sort is complete trash/brain dead builds that destroys the fundamental fun for matches in rank, It's kills the joy in playing solo que rank when builds like that can stomp on noobs so easily without really punishing the player at all for running a low skill build.

[MarshallLaw.9260]

@Rufo.3716 said:Thief in general as it is right now is bad for the game. The crazy amount of stealth combined with all those stupid ports and movement are just plain dumb.

God forbid a low HP squishy class with practically no blocks has any way of disengaging and avoiding getting hit.Stealth is a core mechanic of Thief and there (partly) because they have limited ways of directly blocking damage and (arguably) worse raw sustain than other classes.

[Synstylae.2751]

@zoopop.5630 said:

@"Synstylae.2751" said:Here you have to know that OP posts frequently of reaper topics and videos of thieves being "unfair". I personally have very few problems when facing any type of necro with my thief, deadeye or condi. Instead of crying how thieves are "unfair", how about you start crying how your profession sucks. You just want to nerf thief profession in general, just because your profession has hard time with them. Somehow condi thief is "bad for the game", but condi mirages are just fine.

no...... that build in general along with the entire condi mirage builds are aids/suck for this game. While were at it we can toss P/P deadeye still being aids for this game, anything that allows "spamming" of any sort is complete trash/brain dead builds that destroys the fundamental fun for matches in rank, It's kills the joy in playing solo que rank when builds like that can stomp on noobs so easily without really punishing the player at all for running a low skill build.

OP only mentions thief because he gets owned by them regardless of build. And of course there will be people spamming unload with P/P, there literally is nothing else that does damage in that setup, with pistol stealth attack being trash for power builds. And who knew people would start spamming skills with no cd, thats pretty much how thief works. You can literally count all thief builds into complete trash/brain dead builds, since every thief build allows ability spam. Thieves not getting punishes? Thats a complete lie, we get punished by everything, dodging at the wrong time, using stun breaks at the wrong time, attacking in the wrong time, even one mistake might get us killed. If you are good player, stomping noobs is always easy, regardless of profession or build and running P/P as a noob thief gets you stomped quickly.

[babazhook.6805]

The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

Yes #2 thief port to attack is harder to avoid due to the instant nature of it but one more time , this does not show thief as having an overabundance of conditions added compared to other builds. It shows the strength of the #2 skill on a s/x thief which works just as well in power. The port 2 skill on thief can add 3 poison if spider venom traited. In a typical condition build this is around 600 per tick for that poison and at base lasts 4 seconds for 2400 damage. I get 6k off my shadowshot on power thief. and I do not have to wait 4 seconds for that damage to happen. 4k damage comes flying in off the AA of an LB ranger per shot.

Ok the thief s/d SPAMS #2 adding poison at each attack. 3 times doing this and his INI gone. You took nine poison if you did not manage to dodge/evade or block any. If you want a list of ways to apply 9 damaging condition stacks via 3 attacks across all professions it going to be pretty high and if you want a list of what 3 seperate attacks can do damage wise via power, it will be longer yet.

We had one person post an after damage report from PvP showing him having taken 70k sum total in damage from conditions before he died. He later posted one showing some 28k total of power damage before he died. Somehow he concluded that this damage breakdown report proved Conditions put out too much damage. It showed the opposite. It demonstrated that due to Cleanses and other mitigation measures when a facing a condition build you can absorb three times and more damage before you are downed. Now I do not PvP so I do not use that damage breakdown chart but if this looked at after every death and the numbers similar , this tells me lowering condition damage output of a given class CAN break that build. I would suggest people use this against all of the condition builds they face on a CONSISTENT basis. Don't change up your build or tactics and do fight to win. Then compare the condition damage breakdown between the classes. If the thief Condition damag build is killing you consistently with LESS overall condition damage then other condition builds , then you have a problem. If a Scourge/mirage plug in profession here is killing you with 50 ercent less total condition damage output through the fight then it THOSE builds that are burstier simply because they overwhelmed your defense faster.

[Synstylae.2751]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"Synstylae.2751" said:Here you have to know that OP posts frequently of reaper topics and videos of thieves being "unfair". I personally have very few problems when facing any type of necro with my thief, deadeye or condi. Instead of crying how thieves are "unfair", how about you start crying how your profession sucks. You just want to nerf thief profession in general, just because your profession has hard time with them. Somehow condi thief is "bad for the game", but condi mirages are just fine.

He clearly states in the video that mirage suffers from many of the same problems.

Yet somehow the video was about thieves, really makes you think :)

[Crinn.7864]

@"babazhook.6805" said:The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

In order to negate a venom you have to avoid all strike damage for the next 24 seconds. Completely avoiding all strike damage for 24 seconds is not practical.

The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

The point isn't about dancing dagger, dancing dagger was just used as a example. The point is the build is using a number of procs that can be triggered off of strike damage, and completely avoiding all strike damage is not practical.

Condi thief unlike every other class, cannot be juked or baited because procs only trigger and go on ICD when they are successful, and condi thief gets almost all of it's damage and debuffing power from procs.