GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[Scud.5067]

Look at something long enough and you'll find what you're looking for.

Language is fickle. Who here expresses themselves perfectly?

Regardless, the intent is what is important.

And we have a video of the poor sod proclaiming his admiration to JP, days earlier.

Does anyway, acting in good faith, believe D was trying to do anything other than:

-- start a discussion with someone he respected-- apologize to to someone he respected-- express his sadness for how someone he respected reacted, apologise again, and walk away

Dude got bitten for saying hello, said sorry, expressed his feelings, said sorry again and was done.

No excuse for bullying him.

[lordhelmos.7623]

Just to point out,

As a game company the reality of the situation is that the playerbase are your stakeholders. In any C-Corporation transparency to stakeholders is one of the key elements to success. It would be unfortunate if this situation created an even larger rift between the developers and the playerbase. I think miscommunication, lack of communication, or general "the don't make the game so they are not entitled to an opinion" ideology are some of the largest problems with Gw2.

If you look back at the situation and assess the comments made by the developers. Aside from battle of the sexes (which had no reason to be brought up in the conversation with Deroir by JP), both JP and Mr. Fries took the mentality of "we are devs and you are just players so listen to us when we say you don't know what you are talking about."

In Deroir's follow up Twitch comments he noted that "I come from a long background of academia and you should not need credentials to have an opinion or cordial conversation with someone." This man is not only incredibly mature but also enlightened and absolutely right. During various occasions over the course of the twitter conversation both JP and Fries called out that they were better than players simply because they were developers and players were players.

1.) On multiple occasions JP got on her high horse and denounced several plays as being fantasy fiction writers while she was a professional, generally indicated that they were not credentialed to have a say in how things should be done. This is incredibly shallow thinking.

2.) Fries, while more modest, at one point compared himself to a physicist and degraded other players as laymen who didn't know what was going on in game development.

While I understand that game development is normally a pressure cooking environment with impossible deadlines and mass burnout, the type of I would go as far to say as "childish and immature thinking" that revolves around the concept that just because someone doesn't have the experience or credentials you do their opinion should be immediately dismissed is asinine and doesn't belong in any conversation. Because of this, I generally agree with the terminations.

What worries me is that you have this exact same viewpoint carried by two completely different developers. It begs the question, is this what they think about the playerbase? Is there an environment behind closed doors that compels or supports that kind of rationale.

That to me is an unsurvivable stance because players come from all walks of life and are stakeholders that are entitled to communication because they pay your bills and buy your product. The combined knowledge of the playerbase as a community far surpasses the 400 or so people in ANET when compared side by side for the same reason on why opensource coding works.

If I were in a management position I would be doing some serious corporate restructuring right now to smite any remnant of that kind of mentality or thinking because at the end of the day the customer needs to be valued. I think conveying that feeling to players is ANETS next biggest challenge.

It is difficult to right the ship, but I have seen it done on two occasions:

1.) Final Fantasy A Realm Reborn: The president of the company came out with full transparency to the players and committed to rebuilding the entire game from the ground up. The players were given insight into the entire development process and became very involved. To this day FF:Online's release went from a total and inital failure that almost killed the brand to one of the most populated and successful MMORPGs on the market, greatly surpassing Gw2 (especially overseas). You can't take the hint that honesty pays here? That the more transparent you are with the playerbase the better things are?

2.) Paladins Champions of the Realm: A few months back a "cards unbound" update came out that attempted to change the game to the failed starwars battlefront star cards model. The game went pay2win. Many developers vocalized their unhappiness with the changes, which was spearheaded by someone very high up in management. Eventually the outcry was so bad that the developers and company rebelled internally and booted the guy behind cards unbound out. They committed to restructure the game and have open transparency to their community using DEVSPEAK every week on twitch. When they make balance chances they provide metrics and winrates for specific champions being changed and include why the changes are happening in very detailed live talks. While still in the shadow of being an "overwatch clone" Paladins is highly successful, released on all major consoles, and is regularly seen in the top 10 most played games on steam. Same as above, honesty and communication breeds positive results.

So this is where ANET is now. The focus needs to be on re-establishing proper communication with players. To do this you need metrics and while you can't share all your metrics with players (to prevent manipulation) you need to firmly instill on your community that they exist and there is some rationale for the changes. We are stakeholders and we want to know why things change or what direction the game is headed. Our time and money is an investment and we lose interest fast. I've never once felt like ANET ever had a period of good communication with players.

There's no metrics shared with us, no insight into the testing process, no insight into critical operations that shape the game. Now we discover multiple developers with very immature mindsets. The question is how many more of these kind of developers are there, is this kind of behavior somehow promoted, and what is being done to stop it? Two developers have effectively villainized the playerbase, the people who pay you, the people who fund your entire operation. I really hope the CEO understands how serious this is.

While you have slanted Kotaku articles talking about "Reddit having a hand on developers throats and can get rid of them whenever they want." Are you really that surprised that this is the outcome? Players are the stakeholders and yes they can influence operations because we pay the bills. If players wanted to, they can leave the game entirely and kill it completely. Look at the graveyard of dead online games, Battleborn... Gigantic...Marvel Heroes do you really want to be one of those?

So there is a situation now where the relationship with player stakeholders is damaged. What is going to be done about it? Where is the remediation plan to assure us that this kind of toxic corporate culture in which people withe mindsets of JP and Fries were able to thrive is being burned to ash in a flash fire?

[TheUndefined.1720]

I haven't been in GW2 for a while (just due to boredom b/c all I really like to play for is story ;P). I wanted to come on here though and say as a woman, I completely support ANet's decision in firing both people.

I know customers of all kinds can be disgusting and deplorable. I once acted the same way before God matured me in my personal life. However, there needs to be civility and a standard. I constantly hear, you do you (not in reference to the poster), or do what you want - no, don't do what you want. Do what is civil and kind to one another. Treat others as you would want to be treated. I've encountered sexism in my life (I've been sexually harassed by my ex boss who was indeed a male) etc. I've also seen sexism towards men in preferring me b/c I'm a woman. At the end of the day we all deserve respect and kindness - even if that is to kindly ignore someone you feel is being horrendous.

I am absolutely impressed by ANet's professionalism and am actually logging on for a bit of a shopping spree in their store just to support their professional response to all of this. Please, stick to your guns ANet and keep these toxic people out of your workplace in hopes they mature to become more civil individuals.

Thank you ANet :)

[lordhelmos.7623]

@TheUndefined.1720 said:I haven't been in GW2 for a while (just due to boredom b/c all I really like to play for is story ;P). I wanted to come on here though and say as a woman, I completely support ANet's decision in firing both people.

I know customers of all kinds can be disgusting and deplorable. I once acted the same way before God matured me in my personal life. However, there needs to be civility and a standard. I constantly hear, you do you (not in reference to the poster), or do what you want - no, don't do what you want. Do what is civil and kind to one another. Treat others as you would want to be treated. I've encountered sexism in my life (I've been sexually harassed by my ex boss who was indeed a male) etc. I've also seen sexism towards men in preferring me b/c I'm a woman. At the end of the day we all deserve respect and kindness - even if that is to kindly ignore someone you feel is being horrendous.

I am absolutely impressed by ANet's professionalism and am actually logging on for a bit of a shopping spree in their store just to support their professional response to all of this. Please, stick to your guns ANet and keep these toxic people out of your workplace in hopes they mature to become more civil individuals.

Thank you ANet :)

To be honest O'brien didn't have much of a choice. These people opened up a pandora's box that damaged the brand reputation (which is incredibly hard to fix). Their little kindergarten fight in the twitter ballpit probably did more damage to Guildwars 2 financially than both of their paychecks combined. He had to let them go.

I just really wish I could have eavesdropped to see what the meeting looked like when they were called into the office for their terminations, because that would provide the most insight on how ANET runs it ship. It could have been a phonecall, but what I think is they just checked their emails the next morning and got termination notices.

I imagine the emails were no longer than 2 paragraphs of text referencing the corporate blogging policy, one line regarding disappointment, and then the termination with instructions to bring a box into the office tomorrow to get your things. It's sad when something like that happens but it was kind of self-imposed.

I do feel some sympathy for Fries though. It reminds me of a story in Yellowstone park where a dog jumped into a 500 degree scalding geyser and a guy jumped in after the dog because he wanted to be a hero. Well intentioned but not enough critical thinking was applied prior to taking action and it didn't result in a happy outcome.

[TheUndefined.1720]

@lordhelmos.7623 said:

@TheUndefined.1720 said:-SNIP-

To be honest O'brien didn't have much of a choice. These people opened up a pandora's box that damaged the brand reputation (which is incredibly hard to fix). Their little kindergarten fight in the twitter ballpit probably did more damage to Guildwars 2 financially than both of their paychecks combined. He had to let them go.

I just really wish I could have eavesdropped to see what the meeting looked like when they were called into the office for their terminations, because that would provide the most insight on how ANET runs it ship. It could have been a phonecall, but what I think is they just checked their emails the next morning and got termination notices.

I imagine the emails were no longer than 2 paragraphs of text referencing the corporate blogging policy, one line regarding disappointment, and then the termination with instructions to bring a box into the office tomorrow to get your things. It's sad when something like that happens but it was kind of self-imposed.

I do feel some sympathy for Fries though. It reminds me of a story in Yellowstone park where a dog jumped into a 500 degree scalding geyser and a guy jumped in after the dog because he wanted to be a hero. Well intentioned but not enough critical thinking was applied prior to taking action and it didn't result in a happy outcome.

I totally understand why people would feel that way. I also understand and respectfully disagree with why people think they shouldn't have gotten fired. I could see why you would have that curiosity ;D However, for me, actions always speaks louder than words, and ANet's actions were very appropriate imo - with or without a meeting hehe XD

[Simondegon.1367]

ANET, Thank You, and good job!!

[Jimbru.6014]

Both JP and Fries made the mistake of, "We're devs and you mere players don't know what you're talking about." When actually, we do. I grew up with computers and gaming starting with the Commodore PET, and I've been playing and testing MMOs for over two decades. I can say from experience that almost nothing drives players away from a game faster than toxic, indifferent, condescending attitude from the devs. The fact that two such attitudes are no longer employed at Anet can only be considered a positive.

[JustTrogdor.7892]

@kurfu.5623 said:This thread is no longer productive. Please lock it.

@"Tasida.4085" said:Close thread please, it affects game play IN NO WAY and it's been resolved already. Let it fade into history.

I may be very wrong here but I think Anet is leaving this topic open because if they closed it in my opinion it would sort of say, "We don't want this discussed on our forum," and that might appear a bit defensive or trying to shutdown/hide from the issue. Also closing the thread may very well open the flood gates for people very interested in discussing the issue to start more threads, which in turn would also need to be closed if they are going to lock threads on the topic. Overall, I feel the forum community has done a good job recently keeping it to one thread and not making multiple threads on the topic. Multiple threads did happen early on, and those threads were closed to keep the discussion in this thread. Otherwise the forum might have been flooded with thread after thread on the same issue thus diluting all the other threads relating to actual game play. There are many valid view points from all sides in this thread and as a very casual gamer that doesn't follow a lot of game news I have learned a lot.

[Mysty Meadows.1425]

Seems odd to me, two people dismissed for being disrespectful, yet this thread goes unchecked, letting some of the players do as much to them. If it's okay here, why not elsewhere. Seriously, the horse is beyond dead and you won't even find DNA strands here now. So much for the moral high ground. Sorry fair is fair.

[Zaklex.6308]

@White Dragon.5429 said:

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:

@"Harper.4173" said:

17. "The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved." - maybe employees should be more aware of these issues and try to clarify things better before they sign contracts.

But no-one has seen what kind of terms ArenaNet has in place for their employees who have signed the contract.While we can't see exactly what is on their contract, it is common practice for someone who customers may see as a "face of the company" to be required to put forth a good appearance even while not on duty. If you are a known, recognizable employee, all actions in a public space can be interpreted by customers (whether or not they should) to be actions of the company, and so you must act accordingly.

That being said, it is understandable for someone to lose their calm while under stress. I would expect some kind of warning and expectation of public apology, followed by termination if the employee refuses.

This not only needs to change, it must change and if we have to legislate it then that's the solution. Corporate America needs to be brought to heel and learn that they can not and will not be allowed to control what employees say on their own personal social media accounts.

[Jimbru.6014]

@lordhelmos.7623 said:Just to point out,

SNIP

I clipped your long post to just spare everyone's eyes. No offense intended. I would particularly like to address your point about testing. Which is to say, all you have to do is look at Kourna to know the state of their internal testing.

• The grand opening was so broke that the episode was unplayable to most players for nearly two days, and some people still have problems.
• A ton of bugs, many of which are still unaddressed.
• A clipped and poorly serviced story, clearly driven by schedule pressure. Joko is a villain for the ages, yet passed like a speed bump in barely three LS episodes? That's almost as big a sin as destroying Lion's Arch in LS1. Maybe even more so.
• Daily events designed by somebody who apparently paid no attention to how previous LS episodes did dailies. Five bug stomping events for one daily? Really?
• Bounties are achievements in every zone that has them -- except Kourna. Oh, but we get like twenty achievements of turret crap which is useless outside Kourna. Between that and the dailies, it's almost like they wanted the zone to be tedious.
• While it's certainly neat to have new things, the beetle mount doesn't even begin to make up for Kourna's other problems. Oh, and the zone is horribly designed for it.

That tells you the state of their internal testing: they don't have any. Or at least, they don't have any that's worth a wet cabbage.

[Zaklex.6308]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@squallaus.8321 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

His last tweet to her is completely condescending, just read it, but it most likely extends from the fact that English is not his native language, so he might not know the nuances of writing to avoid sounding condescending.

Go on quote it and explain why its condescending.

Here's his last tweet, and there's no explanation necessary, just read it....it's condescending in tone, but like I said, most likely because English isn't his native tongue:Deroir@DeroirGamingJul 4MoreYou getting mad at my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion with you, instead of just replying that I am wrong or otherwise correct me in my false assumptions, is really just disheartening for me. You do you though. I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it.

If I need to explain why it's condescending then I'm afraid this whole thing is pointless...that screams condescending.

Simply reposting something doesn't explain your point.. you made the statement it's condescending.. so please explain where and how.. personally if I was Deroir and been subjected to her absurdity I would of been a hell of a lot more direct and less apologetic for sure...There was nothing in any of his posts to even remotely suggest he was being condescending and absolutely had no gender related angled to play whatsoever.. its all in her head and a defence mechanism because she clearly just lacks the ability to take criticism or hold cordial, meaningful discussion with anyone that does not panda to her views and opinions.. pure and simple.

Obviously I have to bold the part that is condescending since everyone seems to miss the obvious.And I quote: You do you though.

I've had plenty of people try to offend me, and I laugh in their face because absolutely nothing offends me...because nobody else's opinion of me matters, only my opinion of myself matters.

[Jimbru.6014]

@JustTrogdor.7892 said:

@kurfu.5623 said:This thread is no longer productive. Please lock it.

@"Tasida.4085" said:Close thread please, it affects game play IN NO WAY and it's been resolved already. Let it fade into history.

I may be very wrong here but I think Anet is leaving this topic open because if they closed it in my opinion it would sort of say, "We don't want this discussed on our forum," and that might appear a bit defensive or trying to shutdown/hide from the issue. Also closing the thread may very well open the flood gates for people very interested in discussing the issue to start more threads, which in turn would also need to be closed if they are going to lock threads on the topic. Overall, I feel the forum community has done a good job recently keeping it to one thread and not making multiple threads on the topic. Multiple threads did happen early on, and those threads were closed to keep the discussion in this thread. Otherwise the forum might have been flooded with thread after thread on the same issue thus diluting all the other threads relating to actual game play. There are a lot of valid view points from all sides in this thread and as a very casual gamer that doesn't follow a lot of game news I have learned a lot.

I would hope they're actually watching this thread and taking it as input for contemplation and discussion on their part.

[Amatyr.2564]

@Rawalanche.3897 said:

@Amatyr.2564 said:

@"Mike O Brien.4613" said:Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

Mo

Well, this is a toxic response from the company to a situation that could have been resolved in a much less traumatic way. How incredibly disappointing.

How can you possibly call the measures taken "toxic"? Do you even have a correct understanding of the term? Because it just does not seem to make any sense in this context. Quite the contrary actually. The toxicity came from the ArenaNet staff member who was fired. If anything, ArenaNet has taken the correct precautions to prevent the "intoxication" of the relations between the company and the community.

Had they not done this, the relations between the community and the company could have been damaged for months to come.

In MY Personal opinion, ANet's response has made me incredibly disappointed in the company and how they will respond to genuine social issues in the future. To ME, that's highly toxic. I am quite aware that I don't agree with a lot of loud people on this matter.

[zenleto.6179]

@Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:Seems odd to me, two people dismissed for being disrespectful, yet this thread goes unchecked, letting some of the players do as much to them. If it's okay here, why not elsewhere. Seriously, the horse is beyond dead and you won't even find DNA strands here now. So much for the moral high ground. Sorry fair is fair.

They've been weeding out the more obnoxious posts so there's that, at least.

[morrolan.9608]

@lordhelmos.7623 said:To be honest O'brien didn't have much of a choice. These people opened up a pandora's box that damaged the brand reputation (which is incredibly hard to fix). Their little kindergarten fight in the twitter ballpit probably did more damage to Guildwars 2 financially than both of their paychecks combined. He had to let them go.

No he didn't, it would have blown over so long as some action was being seen to be taken. Ironically his actions have actually done more damage to anets reputation if you look at the reaction from others in the industry.

[Simondegon.1367]

@Amatyr.2564 said:In MY Personal opinion, ANet's response has made me incredibly disappointed in the company and how they will respond to genuine social issues in the future. To ME, that's highly toxic. I am quite aware that I don't agree with a lot of loud people on this matter.

What social issues?

[TheBravery.9615]

Nothing of value was lost when they were fired.

Employment is not an entitlement; arenanet is an at-will employer. Termination can apply for any or no reason, get over it. Mo did the right thing and business continues as usual.

[morrolan.9608]

@Ashen.2907 said:

I would rather have not seen either fired, but whatever punishment was chosen needed to be applied to both in order to reduce the threat of a wrongful termination (based on gender) suit.

IMO thats not a good reason for firing someone, especially someone that has been a loyal and highly regarded dev for 12 years, and he could issue a wrongful termination suit.

[Mysty Meadows.1425]

@zenleto.6179 said:

@Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:Seems odd to me, two people dismissed for being disrespectful, yet this thread goes unchecked, letting some of the players do as much to them. If it's okay here, why not elsewhere. Seriously, the horse is beyond dead and you won't even find DNA strands here now. So much for the moral high ground. Sorry fair is fair.

They've been weeding out the more obnoxious posts so there's that, at least.

Just seems like punishment now, as if losing their jobs wasn't enough, public riducule is warranted. Guess stoning is next.

[zenleto.6179]

@Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

@zenleto.6179 said:

@Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:Seems odd to me, two people dismissed for being disrespectful, yet this thread goes unchecked, letting some of the players do as much to them. If it's okay here, why not elsewhere. Seriously, the horse is beyond dead and you won't even find DNA strands here now. So much for the moral high ground. Sorry fair is fair.

They've been weeding out the more obnoxious posts so there's that, at least.

Just seems like punishment now, as if losing their jobs wasn't enough, public riducule is warranted. Guess stoning is next.

Yeah, I don't disagree. Done's done. They should be able to gauge the opinions of the forum community by now, you'd think.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@TheBravery.9615 said:Termination can apply for any or no reason, get over it.

What?!Is that how it works on NA?

@Zaklex.6308 said:This not only needs to change, it must change and if we have to legislate it then that's the solution. Corporate America needs to be brought to heel and learn that they can not and will not be allowed to control what employees say on their own personal social media accounts.

Is this that people fail to grasp and the only problem I see in all this mess.

[Dreadshow.9320]

@omgitsbees.8137 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:after reading the twitter mess that caused all this and being somewhat involved with managing people, I would like to add a thought:

if this would have been a singular incident, any official reaction would have been too much. Just take her aside for a stern talking, maybe some classes on anger management, dealing with valid critizism and online behaviour. No harm done.

But, and this is a fat but with fanfares, excelsior and a angel choir in the background: this was not a singular incident. The person in question has a history of misandric, xenophobic, insulting, agressive posts.

There is a point where even a dumb and slight disgression is just the one too many.

Short version: if this would have been her first moment of twitter induced socially questionable behaviour, letting her go would have been completely over the top. It wasn't, so I think, it was the right call.

She was literally given the okay to have this sort of behavior. She straight up said this is how she acts on social media and ArenaNet encouraged it.

She was encourage to call a member of the community sexist when they showed no indication of being sexist? Glad Anet corrected their mistake.

[TheBravery.9615]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@TheBravery.9615 said:Termination can apply for any or no reason, get over it.

What?!Is that how it works on NA?

United states, where ANET is headquartered. Unless they have a legally binding employment contract or limited by state statute / federal law, this is how most employers operate in most states.

Burden of proof for wrongful termination suits fall on the employer in which arenanet can just show the twitter dialogue.

[Plague.6723]

@Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

@zenleto.6179 said:

@Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:Seems odd to me, two people dismissed for being disrespectful, yet this thread goes unchecked, letting some of the players do as much to them. If it's okay here, why not elsewhere. Seriously, the horse is beyond dead and you won't even find DNA strands here now. So much for the moral high ground. Sorry fair is fair.

They've been weeding out the more obnoxious posts so there's that, at least.

Just seems like punishment now, as if losing their jobs wasn't enough, public riducule is warranted. Guess stoning is next.

She might actually learn something from what the public has to say about it. Thankfully for her she's been in the industry for some time elsewhere so she can get away with not using ANet on a resume, a 1 year gap isn't so bad. If she had been employed at ANet for 12 years+ now not being able to use it on a resume, she would be in much much more trouble finding a job.

In short this is life and if your rude to others and unprofessional there is always consequences. Sadly this could follow her around for the rest of her life, making it even worse then committing most felony crimes. The best thing she could do is apologize so most people accept it and then forget about it. That way the next company she goes to the community doesn't rear the ugly head of twitters past. That's what you call beating a dead horse.