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Cyrin.1035

By Cyrin.1035
in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

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ponytheguardian.7439

ponytheguardian.7439

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Posted

@CETheLucid.3964 said:

@"Harper.4173" said:
  1. "The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved." - maybe employees should be more aware of these issues and try to clarify things better before they sign contracts.

But no-one has seen what kind of terms ArenaNet has in place for their employees who have signed the contract.While we can't see exactly what is on their contract, it is common practice for someone who customers may see as a "face of the company" to be required to put forth a good appearance even while not on duty. If you are a known, recognizable employee, all actions in a public space can be interpreted by customers (whether or not they should) to be actions of the company, and so you must act accordingly.

That being said, it is understandable for someone to lose their calm while under stress. I would expect some kind of warning and expectation of public apology, followed by termination if the employee refuses.

True. But if I go to JP's case, why didn't her previous "infractions" result in this outcome? Probably because internet didn't make a fuzz about those (as far as I know).

Because nobody knew it happened. Why is that an argument? It's like you make a mistake, your employer doesn't know it so he doesn't punish you. Later it gets out and you get your kitten handed to you. Difficult concept?

Trust me. These things won't go unnoticed in todays internet. If someone doesn't like you, they will dig up every piece of **** they can and destroy you. That's how internet works. There is a chance that because her target was who he is, was the actual reason for letting her go. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Are you seriously implying he sicced his followers on her? Because this is some conspiracy kitten.

I'm not a fan of digging into somebody's past just to get them fired, but that's not a free pass to be an absolute kitten to anybody.

And yes, those things do go unnoticed when out of your 10k followers only 40 care enough to actually engage you and of those 40 at least 39 of them are safely inside the same filter bubble as you

Let me translate my first quote:

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:Trust me. These things won't go unnoticed in todays internet. If someone doesn't like you, they will dig up every piece of *
they can and destroy you. That's how internet works.This is what applies to the actual community. Including random
hats in Reddit/Poorchan/Everyone-else who just like to think that the train looks fun. This was not saying that this respected content creator sent his followers after JP. No. I doubt that, greatly.

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:There is a chance that because her target was who he is, was the actual reason for letting her go. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.This means: MO didn't like her saying bad things to this respected content creator. But if there has been other situations like this that were known within the company, why didn't she get booted before? Instead, now that the target was who he is, MO let her go. And because Fries wanted to stand with her, he got a boot as well.

This is not rocket science or some illuminati theory, or is it?

Most people didn't even know who Deroir was before she went nuclear on him. Including JP apparently. Conversely most players didn't know about her sordid Twitter history until she drew all this attention to herself.

That wasn't the chans, reddit, or anyone else. That was JP. And PF unfortunately made his stand on sinking sand.

So "respected and looked up to" content creator was more or less a nobody (unless that was reference to Jebro or Inks) who actually just wanted to butt in and "play professional" on her. Well played. And snowball just got bigger and oops..

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CETheLucid.3964

CETheLucid.3964

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@ponytheguardian.7439 said:

@"Harper.4173" said:
  1. "The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved." - maybe employees should be more aware of these issues and try to clarify things better before they sign contracts.

But no-one has seen what kind of terms ArenaNet has in place for their employees who have signed the contract.While we can't see exactly what is on their contract, it is common practice for someone who customers may see as a "face of the company" to be required to put forth a good appearance even while not on duty. If you are a known, recognizable employee, all actions in a public space can be interpreted by customers (whether or not they should) to be actions of the company, and so you must act accordingly.

That being said, it is understandable for someone to lose their calm while under stress. I would expect some kind of warning and expectation of public apology, followed by termination if the employee refuses.

True. But if I go to JP's case, why didn't her previous "infractions" result in this outcome? Probably because internet didn't make a fuzz about those (as far as I know).

Because nobody knew it happened. Why is that an argument? It's like you make a mistake, your employer doesn't know it so he doesn't punish you. Later it gets out and you get your kitten handed to you. Difficult concept?

Trust me. These things won't go unnoticed in todays internet. If someone doesn't like you, they will dig up every piece of **** they can and destroy you. That's how internet works. There is a chance that because her target was who he is, was the actual reason for letting her go. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Are you seriously implying he sicced his followers on her? Because this is some conspiracy kitten.

I'm not a fan of digging into somebody's past just to get them fired, but that's not a free pass to be an absolute kitten to anybody.

And yes, those things do go unnoticed when out of your 10k followers only 40 care enough to actually engage you and of those 40 at least 39 of them are safely inside the same filter bubble as you

Let me translate my first quote:

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:Trust me. These things won't go unnoticed in todays internet. If someone doesn't like you, they will dig up every piece of *
they can and destroy you. That's how internet works.This is what applies to the actual community. Including random
hats in Reddit/Poorchan/Everyone-else who just like to think that the train looks fun. This was not saying that this respected content creator sent his followers after JP. No. I doubt that, greatly.

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:There is a chance that because her target was who he is, was the actual reason for letting her go. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.This means: MO didn't like her saying bad things to this respected content creator. But if there has been other situations like this that were known within the company, why didn't she get booted before? Instead, now that the target was who he is, MO let her go. And because Fries wanted to stand with her, he got a boot as well.

This is not rocket science or some illuminati theory, or is it?

Most people didn't even know who Deroir was before she went nuclear on him. Including JP apparently. Conversely most players didn't know about her sordid Twitter history until she drew all this attention to herself.

That wasn't the chans, reddit, or anyone else. That was JP. And PF unfortunately made his stand on sinking sand.

So "respected and looked up to" content creator was more or less a nobody (unless that was reference to Jebro or Inks) who actually just wanted to butt in and "play professional" on her. Well played. And snowball just got bigger and oops..

Most people != A nobodyHe has an NPC named after him in the game. Deroir is in fact a respected community content creator.

He has or else had nothing but the highest respect and praise for JP's work. He had a humble and well stated opinion that in no way warranted JP's inane outburst that cost her and her friend their jobs.

Well played indeed, pony.

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Ace Kenshader.1253

Ace Kenshader.1253

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@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@"lordhelmos.7623" said:

I will say that as a personal opinion, the ANET forms, Reddit, or any platform that Arenanet has given us has never felt like a place where player feedback mattered. Yes I know the president of the company came out and said "we value player feedback" but does anyone really feel like that has ever been the case?

I think the "toxicity" that comes from the community (there is always toxicity) is partially created by an environment created by ANET in which player feedback has never really had impacts. Player feedback any outreach to the players has always felt like a PR show while on the backend ANET has always had their own agenda that never changes regardless of how many players voice up about it.

Virtually every change to the game has been in response to something some segment of the player-base requested. This started with Ascended gear shortly after launch and has not let up since. Sure, ANet has attempted to present those requested things in light of how they want the game to go, but I'm having a hard time naming
anything
that has been added or changed that no one wanted or asked for.

Unfortunately, that's now how the gaming industry works nowadays, especially in MMORPG's where the goal is to have millions of people play your game on a near continual basis; gamers that, as shown, have differing ideas.

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GreyWolf.8670

GreyWolf.8670

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@ponytheguardian.7439 said:

  1. "this wasn't the community's business to get involved in, and it was best left alone." - what I choose to spend my money on most certainly IS my business. I can speak my mind - if the company cares they care. If they don't they don't. It's not the first time the community has been outspoken.

I like how people who already have spent their money on a product don't know that "I'm not supporting them in financial way" card is already obsolete. GW2 is a game that you buy once, buy expansion 1, buy expansion 2. You can buy gems for real money to support, but why would I pay for gems if I can craft gear to sell in BLTC to gain in-game money which I then trade into gems and use the gems.

This is where you are wrong. Even if you buy gems with gold you support Anet. Someone else bought the gems for you (except the tiny fraction coming from giveaways and 5k AP chests)

And here I thought that gems were in infinite stock and used as alternative currency provided to us by ANet. It's almost like there was a pile of digital gems that work like real life money, as in they're printed, made available to public and then gems can rotate around like real life money does from consumer to consumer.

I have a feeling that I missed something.

Huh? Gems are a virtual currency. You pay cash for them and the amount you buy is added to your account's database. They don't manufacture them and stockpile them.

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ponytheguardian.7439

ponytheguardian.7439

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@GreyWolf.8670 said:Huh? Gems are a virtual currency. You pay cash for them and the amount you buy is added to your account's database. They don't manufacture them and stockpile them.This might be a better quote than the one you used:@ponytheguardian.7439 said:

[...] You can buy gems for real money to support, but why would I pay for gems if I can craft gear to sell in BLTC to gain in-game money which I then trade into gems and use the gems.

This is where you are wrong. Even if you buy gems with gold you support Anet. Someone else bought the gems for you (except the tiny fraction coming from giveaways and 5k AP chests)

And here I thought that gems were in infinite stock and used as alternative currency provided to us by ANet. It's almost like there was a pile of digital gems that work like real life money, as in they're printed, made available to public and then gems can rotate around like real life money does from consumer to consumer.

I have a feeling that I missed something.

It is why the price of the gems to gold ratio changes all the time. A lot of gems in pool = less gold per gem and vice versa. So if you buy gems with gold you increase the amount of gold the people get for their gems. Some people sell gems and the gold to gems ratio adjusts again etc.

Ah that's true. But what I initally meant, was that while buying gems with real money supports ANet, using gold to get those gems doesn't because you're not buying them with real money. Instead you put in the work required to make in-game money so you can get the amount of gems you need without using a real dime.

Gems are always in that pool. They don't go away. As far as I know, the ratio change was based on how much there is actual demand for them and price goes up and down based on how much gold or gems you trade.
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Jukhy.2431

Jukhy.2431

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@lordhelmos.7623 said:

@"Greyraven.4258" said:
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right."
George Orwell 1984

We have lost introspection as a species....we just want our position now and anyone that disagrees is evil and must be destroyed, and that my friends is rational straight from Pol Pot. I hope folks who are raging right now takes a step back to look at the bigger picture.

Human beings have not yet learned to prioritize fact-finding, research, and determination of what is closest to the "truth" prior to joining a tribe and taking action. In this case, it became an "us" vs "them" mentality when the issue of gender vs. kitten came into play (which should have never happened and yet was invoked by the very last person that should have invoked it, the dev themselves). If JP would have applied even the smallest bit of logic prior to her response, she would have seen that Deroir was not attacking her at all and was in fact, very cordial. If Mr. Fries were to have logically assessed the situation he would have seen that JP's predicament was of her own making and the proper response was to contact Anet PR and let the HR professionals handle the situation instead of becoming personally involved. Unfortunately humans are not logical creatures.

We like to believe that the universe centers around us and the belief system that we created, that we are somehow important to some grand and supreme omnipotent being that somehow craves our attention. No one has taken into account that maybe greater things come out of what is small.

TL;DR - If you want to be smarter watch more star trek, be more Vulcan. Live long and prosper.

After reading these insightful thoughts I'm glad I didn't stop checking out this thread.I hope both of you live long and prosper.

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wail.8731

wail.8731

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Dear ArenaNet,

I think this is the first post I've made on these forums. Normally wouldn't want to break a years-long streak like this, but with the recent controversy and the coverage in the gaming news media I feel compelled to voice to speak out.

I am a long time player of Guild Wars, and have been playing since Prophecies. I've spent so many years exploring Tyria that it's hard to even believe! Since that time I've also become a developer in the games industry, yet when I get home after long days of work I still often choose to spend my little free time exploring the amazing and beautiful world of Guild Wars.

I would like to thank Mike O Brien & ArenaNet for handling this controversy in the correct way.

As a player, my faith in ArenaNet has been restored. I no longer feel the physical sickness and fear that an employee of ArenaNet might attack me for trying to engage in discussion about the game.

As a developer, I now know ArenaNet upholds standards of professionalism that reflective positively on game developers. As developers, we must conduct ourselves with professionalism, which includes civility, courtesy and respect for all peoples. Only by engaging in constructive dialogue can we improve our craft and ourselves. By standing up to affirm these values and practices, ArenaNet has shown itself to be a company of integrity and principle.

Thank you.

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Jimbru.6014

Jimbru.6014

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@"ponytheguardian.7439" said:

But no-one has seen what kind of terms ArenaNet has in place for their employees who have signed the contract.

Almost every real company has a "Don't make the company look bad" clause in their employment policies. And make no mistake, JP made the company look bad. I won't shed the first tear for her, but I am sorry that Peter got caught up in it too.

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ponytheguardian.7439

ponytheguardian.7439

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@CETheLucid.3964 said:

@"Harper.4173" said:
  1. "The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved." - maybe employees should be more aware of these issues and try to clarify things better before they sign contracts.

But no-one has seen what kind of terms ArenaNet has in place for their employees who have signed the contract.While we can't see exactly what is on their contract, it is common practice for someone who customers may see as a "face of the company" to be required to put forth a good appearance even while not on duty. If you are a known, recognizable employee, all actions in a public space can be interpreted by customers (whether or not they should) to be actions of the company, and so you must act accordingly.

That being said, it is understandable for someone to lose their calm while under stress. I would expect some kind of warning and expectation of public apology, followed by termination if the employee refuses.

True. But if I go to JP's case, why didn't her previous "infractions" result in this outcome? Probably because internet didn't make a fuzz about those (as far as I know).

Because nobody knew it happened. Why is that an argument? It's like you make a mistake, your employer doesn't know it so he doesn't punish you. Later it gets out and you get your kitten handed to you. Difficult concept?

Trust me. These things won't go unnoticed in todays internet. If someone doesn't like you, they will dig up every piece of **** they can and destroy you. That's how internet works. There is a chance that because her target was who he is, was the actual reason for letting her go. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Are you seriously implying he sicced his followers on her? Because this is some conspiracy kitten.

I'm not a fan of digging into somebody's past just to get them fired, but that's not a free pass to be an absolute kitten to anybody.

And yes, those things do go unnoticed when out of your 10k followers only 40 care enough to actually engage you and of those 40 at least 39 of them are safely inside the same filter bubble as you

Let me translate my first quote:

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:Trust me. These things won't go unnoticed in todays internet. If someone doesn't like you, they will dig up every piece of *
they can and destroy you. That's how internet works.This is what applies to the actual community. Including random
hats in Reddit/Poorchan/Everyone-else who just like to think that the train looks fun. This was not saying that this respected content creator sent his followers after JP. No. I doubt that, greatly.

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:There is a chance that because her target was who he is, was the actual reason for letting her go. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.This means: MO didn't like her saying bad things to this respected content creator. But if there has been other situations like this that were known within the company, why didn't she get booted before? Instead, now that the target was who he is, MO let her go. And because Fries wanted to stand with her, he got a boot as well.

This is not rocket science or some illuminati theory, or is it?

Most people didn't even know who Deroir was before she went nuclear on him. Including JP apparently. Conversely most players didn't know about her sordid Twitter history until she drew all this attention to herself.

Here you say "most people didn't even know who Deroir was."

That wasn't the chans, reddit, or anyone else. That was JP. And PF unfortunately made his stand on sinking sand.

So "respected and looked up to" content creator was more or less a nobody (unless that was reference to Jebro or Inks) who actually just wanted to butt in and "play professional" on her. Well played. And snowball just got bigger and oops..

Here my response was "Deroir was more or less a nobody who actually just wanted to butt in..."

Most people != A nobody

Here you say "most people who didn't know who Deroir was != A nobody"

He has an NPC named after him in the game. Deroir is in fact a respected community content creator.

And so Deroir is a respected content creator who has merits like an NPC named after him.

He has or else had nothing but the highest respect and praise for JP's work. He had a humble and well stated opinion that in no way warranted JP's inane outburst that cost her and her friend their jobs.

So why did you say that most people didn't know who Deroir is if he in fact is respected (and seemingly passioned and dedicated) and looked up to content creator in community?

Well played indeed, pony.

I would say so again.

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Gomes.5643

Gomes.5643

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I am normally against people getting fired for openly telling their beliefs and/or opinions, but in the case of this price person I think it is one of the rare cases where it was the right decision. After I read her response to the passing of TotalBuiscuit I have really problems to have any kind of sympathies towards her. That she now tries to change the narrative into "Evil Anet supresses women" instead of admitting that it was her own questionable decisions that got her into this situation makes it impossible for me to take her serious anymore.

The only one I feel bad for is Peter Fries. His comments werent really unpolite or agressive so I didnt see a reason to give him the same punishment here. But I dont know what happened internally. It would be a really bad joke if the reason why went to defend price in first place (a woman beeing threaded unfairly) actually leaded to his downfall. Because Anet/Mike O´Brian didnt want to be pictured as sexist/ threating women unfairly - so the man involved had also to go ...........

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Bloodstealer.5978

Bloodstealer.5978

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@"ponytheguardian.7439" said:I'm not a big fan of how Price responded Deroir's tweet. I also am not a fan of how she talked to Inks. The least I'm happy with Mike's "swift justice" action. That was overboard. He's now only telling the mobs in internet that it's a viable way to get people who you don't like kicked out of their jobs simply by making them act somewhat negative way and then cry about it to their employers. Mike might have saved his precious PR for the time being, but his actions probably bite back at some point.

He. Catered. To. The. Mobs. Not for the players. And now message is out. He could've just had a pep talk like a real company head but instead he went out full force and kicked not one, but two of his best narrative professionals out of the company.

Hmmm.. a pep talk. Yeah that's really going to change the attitude of someone who comes across as totally unhinged, unapproachable and devoid of any kind of people skills... and who's to know what went down internally, its all hearsay and conjecture with only MO, JP/PF and ANET HR knowing the real facts..Personally I agree with the swift action, sad as it maybe but it was all self induced and not for the first time.The real issue is it got someone else fired in the process and now ANET are down 2 devs making it even tougher for those left in the teams to keep up with the pace of and schedule of the company workload.Sure they can be replaced but it's not like you can just drop in and expect to be overly effective and efficient as soon as you sit at your desk.Fact is JP has let herself down, the company and her former colleagues down and us the community.. and as I have said before - I think PF made a bad call getting involved and tangled up in JP's web of absurdity.

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Zaklex.6308

Zaklex.6308

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@squallaus.8321 said:

His last tweet to her is completely condescending, just read it, but it most likely extends from the fact that English is not his native language, so he might not know the nuances of writing to avoid sounding condescending.

Go on quote it and explain why its condescending.

Here's his last tweet, and there's no explanation necessary, just read it....it's condescending in tone, but like I said, most likely because English isn't his native tongue:Deroir@DeroirGamingJul 4MoreYou getting mad at my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion with you, instead of just replying that I am wrong or otherwise correct me in my false assumptions, is really just disheartening for me. You do you though. I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it.

If I need to explain why it's condescending then I'm afraid this whole thing is pointless...that screams condescending.

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IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

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@ponytheguardian.7439 said:

Ah that's true. But what I initally meant, was that while buying gems with real money supports ANet, using gold to get those gems doesn't because you're not buying them with real money. Instead you put in the work required to make in-game money so you can get the amount of gems you need without using a real dime.

Gems are always in that pool. They don't go away. As far as I know, the ratio change was based on how much there is actual demand for them and price goes up and down based on how much gold or gems you trade.

Using gold to get gems does support ANet indirectly. Putting gold into the exchange has an effect on the gems-for-gold rate, just as putting gems into the exchange has an effect on the gold-for-gems rate. When the amount of gold gained per gem goes up, players who want gold have more incentive to exchange gems for gold because they get a better deal. That can mean people are more willing to spend money for gems to get gold -- and that gives ANet revenue. That's why new items in the store are a good thing for ANet. Not only do they benefit by people spending cash to get them, they benefit when people spend gold to get gems to get them, which encourages cash spenders who want gold. In the same fashion, the introduction of gold sinks (like the Gryphon mount) lowers the gold-for gems rate, making such exchanges more attractive to gold farmers who want gems.

@Ace Kenshader.1253 said:

@"lordhelmos.7623" said:

I will say that as a personal opinion, the ANET forms, Reddit, or any platform that Arenanet has given us has never felt like a place where player feedback mattered. Yes I know the president of the company came out and said "we value player feedback" but does anyone really feel like that has ever been the case?

I think the "toxicity" that comes from the community (there is always toxicity) is partially created by an environment created by ANET in which player feedback has never really had impacts. Player feedback any outreach to the players has always felt like a PR show while on the backend ANET has always had their own agenda that never changes regardless of how many players voice up about it.

Virtually every change to the game has been in response to something some segment of the player-base requested. This started with Ascended gear shortly after launch and has not let up since. Sure, ANet has attempted to present those requested things in light of how they want the game to go, but I'm having a hard time naming
anything
that has been added or changed that no one wanted or asked for.

Unfortunately, that's now how the gaming industry works nowadays, especially in MMORPG's where the goal is to have millions of people play your game on a near continual basis; gamers that, as shown, have differing ideas.

Not just the gaming industry. Every business that offers small ticket products (i.e., not Ferraris or the like) depends on volume sales to offset the high cost of doing business and the demands for profitability by higher-ups and/or shareholders. That's why PR is such a big deal in today's world.

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Cyrin.1035

Cyrin.1035

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@Zaklex.6308 said:

His last tweet to her is completely condescending, just read it, but it most likely extends from the fact that English is not his native language, so he might not know the nuances of writing to avoid sounding condescending.

Go on quote it and explain why its condescending.

Here's his last tweet, and there's no explanation necessary, just read it....it's condescending in tone, but like I said, most likely because English isn't his native tongue:Deroir@DeroirGamingJul 4MoreYou getting mad at my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion with you, instead of just replying that I am wrong or otherwise correct me in my false assumptions, is really just disheartening for me. You do you though. I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it.

If I need to explain why it's condescending then I'm afraid this whole thing is pointless...that screams condescending.

XD

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ponytheguardian.7439

ponytheguardian.7439

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@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

Ah that's true. But what I initally meant, was that while buying gems with real money supports ANet, using gold to get those gems doesn't because you're not buying them with real money. Instead you put in the work required to make in-game money so you can get the amount of gems you need without using a real dime.

Gems are always in that pool. They don't go away. As far as I know, the ratio change was based on how much there is actual demand for them and price goes up and down based on how much gold or gems you trade.

Using gold to get gems does support ANet indirectly. Putting gold into the exchange has an effect on the gems-for-gold rate, just as putting gems into the exchange has an effect on the gold-for-gems rate. When the amount of gold gained per gem goes up, players who want gold have more incentive to exchange gems for gold because they get a better deal. That can mean people are more willing to spend money for gems to get gold -- and that gives ANet revenue. That's why new items in the store are a good thing for ANet. Not only do they benefit by people spending cash to get them, they benefit when people spend gold to get gems to get them, which encourages cash spenders who want gold. In the same fashion, the introduction of gold sinks (like the Gryphon mount) lowers the gold-for gems rate, making such exchanges more attractive to gold farmers who want gems.

I have to admit that I might have not included indirect effects of price changes.

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Bloodstealer.5978

Bloodstealer.5978

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@Zaklex.6308 said:

His last tweet to her is completely condescending, just read it, but it most likely extends from the fact that English is not his native language, so he might not know the nuances of writing to avoid sounding condescending.

Go on quote it and explain why its condescending.

Here's his last tweet, and there's no explanation necessary, just read it....it's condescending in tone, but like I said, most likely because English isn't his native tongue:Deroir@DeroirGamingJul 4MoreYou getting mad at my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion with you, instead of just replying that I am wrong or otherwise correct me in my false assumptions, is really just disheartening for me. You do you though. I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it.

If I need to explain why it's condescending then I'm afraid this whole thing is pointless...that screams condescending.

Simply reposting something doesn't explain your point.. you made the statement it's condescending.. so please explain where and how.. personally if I was Deroir and been subjected to her absurdity I would of been a hell of a lot more direct and less apologetic for sure...There was nothing in any of his posts to even remotely suggest he was being condescending and absolutely had no gender related angled to play whatsoever.. its all in her head and a defence mechanism because she clearly just lacks the ability to take criticism or hold cordial, meaningful discussion with anyone that does not panda to her views and opinions.. pure and simple.

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DJRiful.3749

DJRiful.3749

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I really don't know why people are still attached to this issue, man I enjoy this game and kill time with it. I have work & life to enjoy.

Gosh, ... there are better thing to do than just sitting on this thread and ramble all day on it. How is this drama affects your life? I don't get it. lol

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Jimbru.6014

Jimbru.6014

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@Zaklex.6308 said:

His last tweet to her is completely condescending, just read it, but it most likely extends from the fact that English is not his native language, so he might not know the nuances of writing to avoid sounding condescending.

Go on quote it and explain why its condescending.

Here's his last tweet, and there's no explanation necessary, just read it....it's condescending in tone, but like I said, most likely because English isn't his native tongue:Deroir@DeroirGamingJul 4MoreYou getting mad at my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion with you, instead of just replying that I am wrong or otherwise correct me in my false assumptions, is really just disheartening for me. You do you though. I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it.

If I need to explain why it's condescending then I'm afraid this whole thing is pointless...that screams condescending.

That's not condescending. That's someone who wasn't looking for a fight politely walking away from an unreasonable person. Much more politely than I would have, I might add. I dare say JP was probably locked and loaded for a fight; Deroir just had the misfortune of being the one to pull her trigger. She was wrong, and nobody should be trying to deflect any responsibility from her to him for that. Nobody offends you; you choose to be offended. And that's your own fault, as it was hers.

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CETheLucid.3964

CETheLucid.3964

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@ponytheguardian.7439 said:

@"Harper.4173" said:
  1. "The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved." - maybe employees should be more aware of these issues and try to clarify things better before they sign contracts.

But no-one has seen what kind of terms ArenaNet has in place for their employees who have signed the contract.While we can't see exactly what is on their contract, it is common practice for someone who customers may see as a "face of the company" to be required to put forth a good appearance even while not on duty. If you are a known, recognizable employee, all actions in a public space can be interpreted by customers (whether or not they should) to be actions of the company, and so you must act accordingly.

That being said, it is understandable for someone to lose their calm while under stress. I would expect some kind of warning and expectation of public apology, followed by termination if the employee refuses.

True. But if I go to JP's case, why didn't her previous "infractions" result in this outcome? Probably because internet didn't make a fuzz about those (as far as I know).

Because nobody knew it happened. Why is that an argument? It's like you make a mistake, your employer doesn't know it so he doesn't punish you. Later it gets out and you get your kitten handed to you. Difficult concept?

Trust me. These things won't go unnoticed in todays internet. If someone doesn't like you, they will dig up every piece of **** they can and destroy you. That's how internet works. There is a chance that because her target was who he is, was the actual reason for letting her go. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Are you seriously implying he sicced his followers on her? Because this is some conspiracy kitten.

I'm not a fan of digging into somebody's past just to get them fired, but that's not a free pass to be an absolute kitten to anybody.

And yes, those things do go unnoticed when out of your 10k followers only 40 care enough to actually engage you and of those 40 at least 39 of them are safely inside the same filter bubble as you

Let me translate my first quote:

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:Trust me. These things won't go unnoticed in todays internet. If someone doesn't like you, they will dig up every piece of *
they can and destroy you. That's how internet works.This is what applies to the actual community. Including random
hats in Reddit/Poorchan/Everyone-else who just like to think that the train looks fun. This was not saying that this respected content creator sent his followers after JP. No. I doubt that, greatly.

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:There is a chance that because her target was who he is, was the actual reason for letting her go. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.This means: MO didn't like her saying bad things to this respected content creator. But if there has been other situations like this that were known within the company, why didn't she get booted before? Instead, now that the target was who he is, MO let her go. And because Fries wanted to stand with her, he got a boot as well.

This is not rocket science or some illuminati theory, or is it?

Most people didn't even know who Deroir was before she went nuclear on him. Including JP apparently. Conversely most players didn't know about her sordid Twitter history until she drew all this attention to herself.

Here you say "most people didn't even know who Deroir was."

That wasn't the chans, reddit, or anyone else. That was JP. And PF unfortunately made his stand on sinking sand.

So "respected and looked up to" content creator was more or less a nobody (unless that was reference to Jebro or Inks) who actually just wanted to butt in and "play professional" on her. Well played. And snowball just got bigger and oops..

Here my response was "Deroir was more or less a nobody who actually just wanted to butt in..."

Most people != A nobody

Here you say "most people who didn't know who Deroir was != A nobody"

He has an NPC named after him in the game. Deroir is in fact a respected community content creator.

And so Deroir is a respected content creator who has merits like an NPC named after him.

He has or else had nothing but the highest respect and praise for JP's work. He had a humble and well stated opinion that in no way warranted JP's inane outburst that cost her and her friend their jobs.

So why did you say that most people didn't know who Deroir is if he in fact is respected (and seemingly passioned and dedicated) and looked up to content creator in community?

Well played indeed, pony.

I would say so again.

Wonderful. I'm glad I could get you to speed there on your initial fallacy.

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ponytheguardian.7439

ponytheguardian.7439

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@CETheLucid.3964 said:

@"Harper.4173" said:
  1. "The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved." - maybe employees should be more aware of these issues and try to clarify things better before they sign contracts.

But no-one has seen what kind of terms ArenaNet has in place for their employees who have signed the contract.While we can't see exactly what is on their contract, it is common practice for someone who customers may see as a "face of the company" to be required to put forth a good appearance even while not on duty. If you are a known, recognizable employee, all actions in a public space can be interpreted by customers (whether or not they should) to be actions of the company, and so you must act accordingly.

That being said, it is understandable for someone to lose their calm while under stress. I would expect some kind of warning and expectation of public apology, followed by termination if the employee refuses.

True. But if I go to JP's case, why didn't her previous "infractions" result in this outcome? Probably because internet didn't make a fuzz about those (as far as I know).

Because nobody knew it happened. Why is that an argument? It's like you make a mistake, your employer doesn't know it so he doesn't punish you. Later it gets out and you get your kitten handed to you. Difficult concept?

Trust me. These things won't go unnoticed in todays internet. If someone doesn't like you, they will dig up every piece of **** they can and destroy you. That's how internet works. There is a chance that because her target was who he is, was the actual reason for letting her go. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Are you seriously implying he sicced his followers on her? Because this is some conspiracy kitten.

I'm not a fan of digging into somebody's past just to get them fired, but that's not a free pass to be an absolute kitten to anybody.

And yes, those things do go unnoticed when out of your 10k followers only 40 care enough to actually engage you and of those 40 at least 39 of them are safely inside the same filter bubble as you

Let me translate my first quote:

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:Trust me. These things won't go unnoticed in todays internet. If someone doesn't like you, they will dig up every piece of *
they can and destroy you. That's how internet works.This is what applies to the actual community. Including random
hats in Reddit/Poorchan/Everyone-else who just like to think that the train looks fun. This was not saying that this respected content creator sent his followers after JP. No. I doubt that, greatly.

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:There is a chance that because her target was who he is, was the actual reason for letting her go. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.This means: MO didn't like her saying bad things to this respected content creator. But if there has been other situations like this that were known within the company, why didn't she get booted before? Instead, now that the target was who he is, MO let her go. And because Fries wanted to stand with her, he got a boot as well.

This is not rocket science or some illuminati theory, or is it?

Most people didn't even know who Deroir was before she went nuclear on him. Including JP apparently. Conversely most players didn't know about her sordid Twitter history until she drew all this attention to herself.

Here you say "most people didn't even know who Deroir was."

That wasn't the chans, reddit, or anyone else. That was JP. And PF unfortunately made his stand on sinking sand.

So "respected and looked up to" content creator was more or less a nobody (unless that was reference to Jebro or Inks) who actually just wanted to butt in and "play professional" on her. Well played. And snowball just got bigger and oops..

Here my response was "Deroir was more or less a nobody who actually just wanted to butt in..."

Most people != A nobody

Here you say "most people who didn't know who Deroir was != A nobody"

He has an NPC named after him in the game. Deroir is in fact a respected community content creator.

And so Deroir is a respected content creator who has merits like an NPC named after him.

He has or else had nothing but the highest respect and praise for JP's work. He had a humble and well stated opinion that in no way warranted JP's inane outburst that cost her and her friend their jobs.

So why did you say that most people didn't know who Deroir is if he in fact is respected (and seemingly passioned and dedicated) and looked up to content creator in community?

Well played indeed, pony.

I would say so again.

Wonderful. I'm glad I could get you to speed there on your initial fallacy.

But I was only using your words... in the last one.

:)

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CETheLucid.3964

CETheLucid.3964

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@ponytheguardian.7439 said:

@"Harper.4173" said:
  1. "The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved." - maybe employees should be more aware of these issues and try to clarify things better before they sign contracts.

But no-one has seen what kind of terms ArenaNet has in place for their employees who have signed the contract.While we can't see exactly what is on their contract, it is common practice for someone who customers may see as a "face of the company" to be required to put forth a good appearance even while not on duty. If you are a known, recognizable employee, all actions in a public space can be interpreted by customers (whether or not they should) to be actions of the company, and so you must act accordingly.

That being said, it is understandable for someone to lose their calm while under stress. I would expect some kind of warning and expectation of public apology, followed by termination if the employee refuses.

True. But if I go to JP's case, why didn't her previous "infractions" result in this outcome? Probably because internet didn't make a fuzz about those (as far as I know).

Because nobody knew it happened. Why is that an argument? It's like you make a mistake, your employer doesn't know it so he doesn't punish you. Later it gets out and you get your kitten handed to you. Difficult concept?

Trust me. These things won't go unnoticed in todays internet. If someone doesn't like you, they will dig up every piece of **** they can and destroy you. That's how internet works. There is a chance that because her target was who he is, was the actual reason for letting her go. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Are you seriously implying he sicced his followers on her? Because this is some conspiracy kitten.

I'm not a fan of digging into somebody's past just to get them fired, but that's not a free pass to be an absolute kitten to anybody.

And yes, those things do go unnoticed when out of your 10k followers only 40 care enough to actually engage you and of those 40 at least 39 of them are safely inside the same filter bubble as you

Let me translate my first quote:

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:Trust me. These things won't go unnoticed in todays internet. If someone doesn't like you, they will dig up every piece of *
they can and destroy you. That's how internet works.This is what applies to the actual community. Including random
hats in Reddit/Poorchan/Everyone-else who just like to think that the train looks fun. This was not saying that this respected content creator sent his followers after JP. No. I doubt that, greatly.

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:There is a chance that because her target was who he is, was the actual reason for letting her go. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.This means: MO didn't like her saying bad things to this respected content creator. But if there has been other situations like this that were known within the company, why didn't she get booted before? Instead, now that the target was who he is, MO let her go. And because Fries wanted to stand with her, he got a boot as well.

This is not rocket science or some illuminati theory, or is it?

Most people didn't even know who Deroir was before she went nuclear on him. Including JP apparently. Conversely most players didn't know about her sordid Twitter history until she drew all this attention to herself.

Here you say "most people didn't even know who Deroir was."

That wasn't the chans, reddit, or anyone else. That was JP. And PF unfortunately made his stand on sinking sand.

So "respected and looked up to" content creator was more or less a nobody (unless that was reference to Jebro or Inks) who actually just wanted to butt in and "play professional" on her. Well played. And snowball just got bigger and oops..

Here my response was "Deroir was more or less a nobody who actually just wanted to butt in..."

Most people != A nobody

Here you say "most people who didn't know who Deroir was != A nobody"

He has an NPC named after him in the game. Deroir is in fact a respected community content creator.

And so Deroir is a respected content creator who has merits like an NPC named after him.

He has or else had nothing but the highest respect and praise for JP's work. He had a humble and well stated opinion that in no way warranted JP's inane outburst that cost her and her friend their jobs.

So why did you say that most people didn't know who Deroir is if he in fact is respected (and seemingly passioned and dedicated) and looked up to content creator in community?

Well played indeed, pony.

I would say so again.

Wonderful. I'm glad I could get you to speed there on your initial fallacy.

But I was only using your words... in the last one.

:)

... Only for you to walk into another one. Ah, internet.

:lol:

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IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

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@Zaklex.6308 said:

His last tweet to her is completely condescending, just read it, but it most likely extends from the fact that English is not his native language, so he might not know the nuances of writing to avoid sounding condescending.

Go on quote it and explain why its condescending.

Here's his last tweet, and there's no explanation necessary, just read it....it's condescending in tone, but like I said, most likely because English isn't his native tongue:Deroir@DeroirGamingJul 4MoreYou getting mad at my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion with you, instead of just replying that I am wrong or otherwise correct me in my false assumptions, is really just disheartening for me. You do you though. I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it.

If I need to explain why it's condescending then I'm afraid this whole thing is pointless...that screams condescending.

That's an opinion, not an explanation or analysis, which is what was requested. "It's condescending because it's obvious that it's condescending."

"You getting mad at my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion with you"

This phrase contains two assumptions. One, that JP is mad. Two, that his post was an "obvious attempt to create (etc.)." Generally, it's not a good idea to tell someone you think is angry that they're angry, or to assume that something obvious to you is obvious to someone else. Poor judgment? Yes. Condescending? Not seeing it.

"... instead of just replying that I am wrong or otherwise correct me in my false assumptions, is really just disheartening for me."

Expression of personal feelings with an offering of what the poster believes would have been more conducive to dialogue. JP in no way asked for an expression of feelings. Her statement was meant as a brush off and was not taken as such. Again, bad judgment. Perhaps there's something in offering what would have been taken as a better way to respond, but I can't see hurt feelings as smug superiority. If that "screams condescension," to people in general, then I fear for humanity's ability to have discourse.

"You do you though."

I had to look this one up. Apparently it's kind of like the older, "Keep on keeping on." I'm more familiar with. No condescension.

"I'm sorry if it offended."

Apology, not condescension -- unless saying we're sorry is now smug superiority.

"I'll leave you to it."

Bye. Again, nothing there.

In hindsight, it might have been better for Deroir to simply say the last two sentences and leave out the rest. However, the damage was already done. Other posters chimed in, taking JP to task for her initial response to Deroir. It's important to note that the statements JP made that were most objected to were made after Deroir had left, and others began pouring oil on a fire. If we're going to excuse JP for being provoked, then perhaps we should focus on them instead of Deroir, who looks more like a fan who was (perhaps clumsily) trying to engage a dev he respected than he does a poster for male superiority.

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