Stealth

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Also thinking about this a little more:

They just have to put an ICD on the stealth combo and perma stealth is gone

, nobody can ever complain again.

nope. thats the issue with alot of feedback, people just got no clue. you dont need a combo for permastealth as thief.

Enlighten me then. Dropping a field and leaping through it is the most common way. That's a combo.

oke because i am too lazy to make a new video, here from right after last deadeye rework. now you dont even need kneel anymore and if you use ontop utilities you can drop some of the endurance regen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuKkepUNx1c

and you still have all the resources to currently do the combo ontop!

Yeeeeeaaaaaah but who is using Acro with DE? xD

Oh nvm I thought you were gaining vigor from acro w/withdraw, didn't pay attention to your trait screen.

well i did play trickery right after rework as i thought i need the boonrip i did lose from cursed bullet, now i play with SA+CS again for higher damage so i use a combination of endurance and the combo to stealth. but i use rifle + dagger combo as that is 12s stealth for 16 ini wich is ~100% uptime for builds with shadows rejuv.

[schokelmei.8271]

@cobbah.3102 said:Or just delete thief problem solved !!!

Best solution. And it makes the balancing a lot better.

[joneirikb.7506]

Thought: Change reveal, so you get reveal on any attack. That means the thief has to actively stop attacking for 3 seconds before stealthing. Curious how that would change the interactions.

[Justine.6351]

@Brigg.3961 said:Norns can stealth, so technically, any class can stealth

Oh, that's why I have so many norn characters... ;-)

[bq pd.2148]

@joneirikb.7506 said:Thought: Change reveal, so you get reveal on any attack. That means the thief has to actively stop attacking for 3 seconds before stealthing. Curious how that would change the interactions.

it would render stealth pretty useless aside from an opener to gank but it wouldnt adress your issue. many people dont like fighting thieves no matter the thieves build and that is because thief cant trade hits. if the thief is build for stealth hes actually way more vulnerable then one build for mobility / evades /interrupts /blinds or a combination of it all, because they actually avoid the damage, many thieves i kill go downstate while they are in stealth.

[Rezzet.3614]

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:Everyone gets a 60sec CD on stealth but Thief has it with any CD and can perma stealth cheese zergs? Great idea.

No, what should be done is a rework of stealth as a whole. This is long overdue. And the reason why they haven't done it is because they'll have to rework Thief completely, something they prefer avoiding and make gem store items instead

pretty much this

[Rezzet.3614]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@joneirikb.7506 said:Thought: Change reveal, so you get reveal on any attack. That means the thief has to actively stop attacking for 3 seconds before stealthing. Curious how that would change the interactions.

it would render stealth pretty useless aside from an opener to gank but it wouldnt adress your issue. many people dont like fighting thieves no matter the thieves build and that is because thief cant trade hits. if the thief is build for stealth hes actually way more vulnerable then one build for mobility / evades /interrupts /blinds or a combination of it all, because they actually avoid the damage, many thieves i kill go downstate while they are in stealth.

daredevil proved that mentality incorrect though , thieves were getting all up on people's faces for months

[Nuka Cola.8520]

And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol.

[bq pd.2148]

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol.

ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking.also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad.

[bq pd.2148]

@Rezzet.3614 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@joneirikb.7506 said:Thought: Change reveal, so you get reveal on any attack. That means the thief has to actively stop attacking for 3 seconds before stealthing. Curious how that would change the interactions.

it would render stealth pretty useless aside from an opener to gank but it wouldnt adress your issue. many people dont like fighting thieves no matter the thieves build and that is because thief cant trade hits. if the thief is build for stealth hes actually way more vulnerable then one build for mobility / evades /interrupts /blinds or a combination of it all, because they actually avoid the damage, many thieves i kill go downstate while they are in stealth.

daredevil proved that mentality incorrect though , thieves were getting all up on people's faces for months

yes while evading , interrupt spamming or blinding their opponent. doesnt mean they did trade hits.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol.

ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking.also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad.

the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running.

[bq pd.2148]

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol.

ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking.also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad.

the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running.

no a perma stealth thief is easier to apply my damage to then it is to a mirage. because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage, yet evade does and the mirage is faster then my deadeye so if i do not onehit them, they often run to reset the fight. also the thief is vulnerable while dealing damage, the mirage not.

[Rezzet.3614]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Rezzet.3614 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@joneirikb.7506 said:Thought: Change reveal, so you get reveal on any attack. That means the thief has to actively stop attacking for 3 seconds before stealthing. Curious how that would change the interactions.

it would render stealth pretty useless aside from an opener to gank but it wouldnt adress your issue. many people dont like fighting thieves no matter the thieves build and that is because thief cant trade hits. if the thief is build for stealth hes actually way more vulnerable then one build for mobility / evades /interrupts /blinds or a combination of it all, because they actually avoid the damage, many thieves i kill go downstate while they are in stealth.

daredevil proved that mentality incorrect though , thieves were getting all up on people's faces for months

yes while evading , interrupt spamming or blinding their opponent. doesnt mean they did trade hits.

even better

[Nuka Cola.8520]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol.

ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking.also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad.

the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running.

no a perma stealth thief is easier to apply my damage to then it is to a mirage. because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage, yet evade does and the mirage is faster then my deadeye so if i do not onehit them, they often run to reset the fight. also the thief is vulnerable while dealing damage, the mirage not.

Stealth doesn't prevent any damage, yeah, but what are you gonna burst with your condi that sits in stealth in 600-1200 range from you? You won't do anything, and even if you do, the condi cleanse from SA will get all the condis removed.

The windown of the cheeseye vulnerability while attacking is like 3sec. Then he's back in stealth. That is not a valid point about them being vulnerable at all.

[bq pd.2148]

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol.

ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking.also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad.

the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running.

no a perma stealth thief is easier to apply my damage to then it is to a mirage. because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage, yet evade does and the mirage is faster then my deadeye so if i do not onehit them, they often run to reset the fight. also the thief is vulnerable while dealing damage, the mirage not.

Stealth doesn't prevent any damage, yeah, but what are you gonna burst with your condi that sits in stealth in 600-1200 range from you? You won't do anything, and even if you do, the condi cleanse from SA will get all the condis removed.

The windown of the cheeseye vulnerability while attacking is like 3sec. Then he's back in stealth. That is not a valid point about them being vulnerable at all.

you are correct trying to burst with condis doesnt really work that good, because condis are not meant to burst and they can too easily be countered by cleanses. with SA thief can use a very good cleanse, even tho many deadeyes i run into prefer concealed deafeat over shadows embrace. now if you were a power mirage, you could kill the deadeye in the 3s window easily. downside is then he can actually oneshot you, while on trailblaizer you might have a chance to survive.btw when you still want your condis to tick against an SA thief with shadows embrace you need damaging cover conditions as that trait removes only damaging conditions. use sigil of doom for example on your mesmer. this can potentially give your other conditions 3 more seconds to tick.

[schokelmei.8271]

Ok, so it's ok for you that thief builds hard counter most of the condi builds in the game and still be able to escape most power builds, but arguing in my reveal thread that "reveal" is to much of a counter vs. thief gameplay?

Hypocrite much, yes?This whole argument is all "Please, don't touch my cheesy builds"

[bq pd.2148]

no thief builds do not harcounter condi builds.i marely said shadows embrace is a good condi cleanse, when used on a build wich is build around stealth you ofc profit more from this trait. but on the flipside fighting a condi core nekro you need to be careful because he can apply condi + reveal wich means no condi cleanse.being able to escape is surely overpowered from a nekros perspective.

and you also didnt understand anything i wrote in your reveal thread. i just want every reveal skill also to have counterplay / be avoidable.currently the anti stealth trap is not dodgeable and engis lock on trait has too low requirements to apply reveal for it not going on cooldown unless actually applied.what i want is reveals that i can aswell dodge or that i can play around or more frequent reveal removes as i can build depending on stealth. but aslong as i can avoid reveals with correct play i dont mind everyone having a reveal.

[Turk.5460]

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol.

ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking.also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad.

the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running.

no a perma stealth thief is easier to apply my damage to then it is to a mirage. because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage, yet evade does and the mirage is faster then my deadeye so if i do not onehit them, they often run to reset the fight. also the thief is vulnerable while dealing damage, the mirage not.

Stealth doesn't prevent any damage, yeah, but what are you gonna burst with your condi that sits in stealth in 600-1200 range from you? You won't do anything, and even if you do, the condi cleanse from SA will get all the condis removed.

The windown of the cheeseye vulnerability while attacking is like 3sec. Then he's back in stealth. That is not a valid point about them being vulnerable at all.

Did....wait...did...what....ok...did...

Did a condi Mirage just call something else cheesy?

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol.

ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking.also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad.

the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running.

no a perma stealth thief is easier to apply my damage to then it is to a mirage. because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage, yet evade does and the mirage is faster then my deadeye so if i do not onehit them, they often run to reset the fight. also the thief is vulnerable while dealing damage, the mirage not.

Stealth doesn't prevent any damage, yeah, but what are you gonna burst with your condi that sits in stealth in 600-1200 range from you? You won't do anything, and even if you do, the condi cleanse from SA will get all the condis removed.

The windown of the cheeseye vulnerability while attacking is like 3sec. Then he's back in stealth. That is not a valid point about them being vulnerable at all.

Did....wait...did...what....ok...did...

Did a

condi Mirage

just call something else cheesy?

No. Its a mirage.....

Nothing to see here.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol.

ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking.also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad.

the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running.

no a perma stealth thief is easier to apply my damage to then it is to a mirage. because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage, yet evade does and the mirage is faster then my deadeye so if i do not onehit them, they often run to reset the fight. also the thief is vulnerable while dealing damage, the mirage not.

Stealth doesn't prevent any damage, yeah, but what are you gonna burst with your condi that sits in stealth in 600-1200 range from you? You won't do anything, and even if you do, the condi cleanse from SA will get all the condis removed.

The windown of the cheeseye vulnerability while attacking is like 3sec. Then he's back in stealth. That is not a valid point about them being vulnerable at all.

Did....wait...did...what....ok...did...

Did a

condi Mirage

just call something else cheesy?

Since launch of this game, there was never a cheesier build(s) than perma stealth. So yes, cheesier than Mirage.

[ZDragon.3046]

imo Stealth should be considered as camouflage which means you can still be seen as a slight shimmer when moving (even more so up close within 400 range) but not directly targeted and taking damage should knock you out of it.

It would be hard to notice them if you are focused on some one else and camouflage effects would be most useful above 900range where its nearly impossible to see the person even with the shimmer or while moving.
Helpful when you want to sneak around from longer range and only moderately useful during combat but not over bearing like the current version of stealth on other professions.

Thief should be the only ones that have a trait that makes camouflage true stealth making them completely unseen and allowing them to retain it when taking damage in stealth.

Thats probably asking a bit much and im sure almost no one would like this idea but that that would have been how I implemented it in this game personally.

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

It is funny how stealth has been a major point for me in terms of balance for years, and it sounds like it has been a consistent one for many others, and yet I dont think ive heard anyone at Arenanet directly address the issue with it. If someone can point me to an article where they do, their design philosophy behind it, I would be very interested!

For me personally, Team Fortress 2 always had some of the best stealth mechanics, you used stealth to get around, but once stealth dropped, you had better get done what you need to get done or you will be out of luck. Right now, there seems to be no downside to stealth in this game, especially when it is coupled with such high mobility, it seems to be used less as a guaranteed first attack and not to get hit, and more of a get of jail free card. For me , there should always be a trade off in skills. If you choose a high damage build, you should be more easily damaged yourself. Right now, for stealth classes, it seems like they get the best of both worlds, yes their hit points might not be high, but because they have such high mobility and stealth, they are essentially invulnerable and untouchable whenever they choose to be. There seems to be no downside to it.

I would love for arenanet at some point to make a very serious discussion about stealth, explain their idea/philosophy behind it and propose changes to it that address people's concerns. Otherwise I think we will end up with a stealth thread on the WvW forums every week or so. Maybe eventually they will notice! We can only hope!

[bq pd.2148]

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:For me personally, Team Fortress 2 always had some of the best stealth mechanics, you used stealth to get around, but once stealth dropped, you had better get done what you need to get done or you will be out of luck. Right now, there seems to be no downside to stealth in this game, especially when it is coupled with such high mobility, it seems to be used less as a guaranteed first attack and not to get hit, and more of a get of jail free card. For me , there should always be a trade off in skills. If you choose a high damage build, you should be more easily damaged yourself. Right now, for stealth classes, it seems like they get the best of both worlds, yes their hit points might not be high, but because they have such high mobility and stealth, they are essentially invulnerable and untouchable whenever they choose to be. There seems to be no downside to it.

what kind of downside do you expect?what is the downside for evading, for blocking , for healing, for teleporting etc?

what ever you put into your build you give up the option to take something else, you cannot pick all traitlines, not every trait combination in each line, you cannot have every weapon skill as you only have 1-2 weapon sets, you can only pick a few utilities one heal and one elite. everything you pick means you give that slot up for something else you could have.i also did play games without this 100% invisibility so if you payed attention you could spot them, but those games didng have most of their damage as AoE/Cleave, many skills there required a target, you could see the stealthed player but not target them. this gave you the option to defend against their attacks and with some attacks maybe even attack them. so it provided more than just being invisible, it provided protection from many attacks. in gw2 even with a slight silhouette stealth would be pretty much useless aside from traits connected to it because most skills are cleave/AoE and for half the targeted skills you would just use action cam. gw2 doesnt provide long stealth by single skills wich many other games do, you have to keep stacking it if you want to keep it and every stealth stacking has a visual animation. there is one you can hide, thatone they can fix i dont care. i think anet tried to balance stealth in that you need to constantly put resources into it be it cooldowns, endurance or ini wich you could use when fighting. and ofc that you get visible by hitting, i have seen games were you did not leave stealth when hitting an opponent. the sometimes proposed make them visible when they get hit in stealth again wouldnt fit into gw2 as there is way too much AoE /cleave for this, also the reason why Lock on is problematic.

[BlueMelody.6398]

One major issue with stealth is that you can't target stealthed characters at all, and for classes that have no (or minimal) ranged aoe, and where stealth can be reapplied as fast as a targeted skill can channel (thus target is lost thus skill is useless), killing a stealth-based character is next to impossible. GW2 already has a serious issue with targeting, as the various tab versions all work like crap, clicking manually is incredibly difficult in the middle of a fight, and stacking often makes it literally impossible to target the correct item or player. Add in the ability to shed your target every couple of seconds, and high-stealth players are essentially invulvnerable outside of ranged aoe.

Add this to the ability to one-shot (or rapid-burst) from stealth for some builds, and you have a fundamental problem: a zero-risk/high-reward build. The complete lack of balance between risk and reward creates a flaw in the gameplay, and the thief-main defenders who constantly defend this nonsense are a major part of the problem.

[Optimator.3589]

Even WoW, for as crappy a game as it is, has historically handled stealth far better than this game ever has.