Give a skill that has the "revealed" effect to all classes with no access to stealth

[Nuka Cola.8520]

The more nerfs to stealth, the better.

[BlueMelody.6398]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Shagaliscious.6281 said:

@archmagus.7249 said:Yeah they gave every class revealed. Whenever you hit someone from stealth, they become revealed.

Are you saying that a thief in stealth gets revealed when they do damage, or that if you hit an opponent in stealth they become revealed? Because the latter is not true.

They're both true actually.

You spam Auto Attack and when you chain starts to cycle through, you know you're hitting them. Simple trick that has been used since game release, does it not work anymore or something or are people asking for an even easier way to deal with it?

That isn't remotely the same thing as revealed, and it has no use if your autoattack has 120 range and they're already 600 away and moving in a direction you can't see.

[Anthony.3207]

Engineer has both - great anti stealth reveling - and good group stealth.

Engineers have elixir S toss / stealth gyro on scrapper / and they can smoke bomb blast 10 people into stealth for a few seconds.

Engineers are pretty stealthy and great counter to stealth. But they don't have evades and mobility like thief do.

[Xenash.1245]

I'm not a big fan of stealth spamming either, but I don't think adding more revels into the game is the solution here.

[ugrakarma.9416]

Stealth, tricks and so, forces many ppl choose the spammiest class they found to counter it. Actually im happy with scrapper and his mass reveal. is basically is very anti-mesmer thiev class.

[sephiroth.4217]

@BlueMelody.6398 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Shagaliscious.6281 said:

@"archmagus.7249" said:Yeah they gave every class revealed. Whenever you hit someone from stealth, they become revealed.

Are you saying that a thief in stealth gets revealed when they do damage, or that if you hit an opponent in stealth they become revealed? Because the latter is not true.

They're both true actually.

You spam Auto Attack and when you chain starts to cycle through, you know you're hitting them. Simple trick that has been used since game release, does it not work anymore or something or are people asking for an even easier way to deal with it?

That isn't remotely the same thing as revealed, and it has no use if your autoattack has 120 range and they're already 600 away and moving in a direction you can't see.

It's best to start learning how you as a player can deal with these situations because if I knew the thief was 600 range away and I had a weapon range of 120, I wouldn't bother spamming my auto attack but you're more than welcome too if you like.Are there even any reveals that work at 600+ range away either? If there was besides "Sic Em", I'm unaware of it.

I don't know what class you play or build but I'm positive you have the tools to deal with it, If I can handle it on my Tempest then I presume most other classes would have an easier time as Lightning Whip doesn't really have that AA chain indication (I could use fire yes but that messes my rotations) and I have to rely on landing my Earthquake ontop of my Lightning Flash location and spamming AoE's...

Anyway: Seems most people in the thread forgot that every class has access to stealth, so it would mean that no one would be getting revealed.

[SoulSin.5682]

@BlueMelody.6398 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:Take stealth out of the game, problem solved.

Agree 100%. Stealth in this game is implemented terribly and should be removed, with thieves given extra dodges (oops, they already have that) or mobility (hmm, they have that too) to compensate.

Ok, no compensation needed.

Also the one and only warrior reveal utility is not useful in any realistic build, so warrior basically has no practical reveal either.

• Someone complaining about something that has being okay for 6 years?
• Someone who is also no aware that Thieves always had 3 dodges with the old Feline Grace? That perhaps forgot that the 3 dodges locked on Daredevil was in fact, a nerf to the Acrobatic Core trait line?
• Someone that also forgot that every class has its own mobility skills nowadays. And that the biggest downside of the very DeadEye he is conplaining about is the least mobily of all thief builds?
• A Spellbreaker complaining about thief?

Here is the advice that was repeated hundred times in this discussion.If stealth is a problem for you, please play a class and/or build that can counter it properly.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

Spam more aoes!

D:

[Eramonster.2718]

Stealth was never okay from day one, unless the class profession you're using have access and is actively using it :lol:. Stealth trap as a solution? Supplies needed aside, you need to lure the invisible enemy in. What if the user's intention is to persue a running target from going stealth to escape or resetting? And channeling 4 seconds to setup the trap while the enemy is lurking? :lol:. Not to mention there are ways to remove or survive "revealed". ahem*

[bq pd.2148]

@"Eramonster.2718" said:Stealth was never okay from day one, unless the class profession you're using have access and is actively using it :lol:. Stealth trap as a solution? Supplies needed aside, you need to lure the invisible enemy in. What if the user's intention is to persue a running target from going stealth to escape or resetting? And channeling 4 seconds to setup the trap while the enemy is lurking? :lol:. Not to mention there are ways to remove or survive "revealed". ahem*

the problem with the trap is the much longer duration reveal then just those 1-6 seconds skill based reveals offer + it being undodgeable.the trap is not an issue in 1 vs 1 fights as your right channeling 4s often means they are dead. still everyday people use those traps against me, not in 1 on 1 but then i am already outnumbered because then i cannot avoid those traps being planted, if planted outside my FoV i might step into it in a bad moment and die. yes i often survive those traps, the problem is i have to remove that revealed or i am dead because it lasts just way too long. against a stealth heavy build reveal is nearly as strong as a stun yet they never last 20 seconds and you got way more options to get rid of them.sure everyone can have a reveal but the reveal has to be of reasonable duration and application, therefor also avoidable if you see the reveal comming.

what bothers me more is that there are very few people actually playing builds depending on stealth, for many builds utilizing stealth they will most likely survive even revealed so this is not really what is going to help against em, as they still have plenty of mobility, endurance etc. and well there are not really counters to dodging and teleporting so even with a reveal you wont catch them, they still will escape.

[morrolan.9608]

@"Anthony.3207" said:Ironic that their is annoying in wvw and "engineer" is a great counter to stealth. They have the anti stealth tier 2 trait and they have stealth gyro f5 anti stealth Field.

Which is on scrapper not core engi and so is effectively useless

@SoulSin.5682 said:

• Someone complaining about something that has being okay for 6 years?

There have been complaints about the implementation of stealth in this game since beta. Its the worst implementation of stealth in any game ever because anet just has to do things differently even if they work in other games.

[bq pd.2148]

@morrolan.9608 said:

@"Anthony.3207" said:Ironic that their is annoying in wvw and "engineer" is a great counter to stealth. They have the anti stealth tier 2 trait and they have stealth gyro f5 anti stealth Field.

Which is on scrapper not core engi and so is effectively useless

lock on is way stronger then detection pulse and is on core engi.

[morrolan.9608]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@morrolan.9608 said:

@"Anthony.3207" said:Ironic that their is annoying in wvw and "engineer" is a great counter to stealth. They have the anti stealth tier 2 trait and they have stealth gyro f5 anti stealth Field.

Which is on scrapper not core engi and so is effectively useless

lock on is way stronger then detection pulse and is on core engi.

You have to hit or disable an enemy and the revealed is just as long I don't see how its better.

[bq pd.2148]

@morrolan.9608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@morrolan.9608 said:

@"Anthony.3207" said:Ironic that their is annoying in wvw and "engineer" is a great counter to stealth. They have the anti stealth tier 2 trait and they have stealth gyro f5 anti stealth Field.

Which is on scrapper not core engi and so is effectively useless

lock on is way stronger then detection pulse and is on core engi.

You have to hit or disable an enemy and the revealed is just as long I don't see how its better.

i can evade detection pulse, yet lock on doesnt go on cooldown unless it actually did reveal. wich means i have to avoid ALL hits while stealthed wich is alot harder then avoiding 1 detection pulse wave every 20 seconds that i even can outrange if i know when it will be up again.

[NuhDah.9812]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@"Eramonster.2718" said:Stealth was never okay from day one, unless the class profession you're using have access and is actively using it :lol:. Stealth trap as a solution? Supplies needed aside, you need to lure the invisible enemy in. What if the user's intention is to persue a running target from going stealth to escape or resetting? And channeling 4 seconds to setup the trap while the enemy is lurking? :lol:. Not to mention there are ways to remove or survive "revealed". ahem*

the problem with the trap is the much longer duration reveal then just those 1-6 seconds skill based reveals offer + it being undodgeable.the trap is not an issue in 1 vs 1 fights as your right channeling 4s often means they are dead. still everyday people use those traps against me, not in 1 on 1 but then i am already outnumbered because then i cannot avoid those traps being planted, if planted outside my FoV i might step into it in a bad moment and die. yes i often survive those traps, the problem is i have to remove that revealed or i am dead because it lasts just way too long. against a stealth heavy build reveal is nearly as strong as a stun yet they never last 20 seconds and you got way more options to get rid of them.sure everyone can have a reveal but the reveal has to be of reasonable duration and application, therefor also avoidable if you see the reveal comming.

what bothers me more is that there are very few people actually playing builds depending on stealth, for many builds utilizing stealth they will most likely survive even revealed so this is not really what is going to help against em, as they still have plenty of mobility, endurance etc. and well there are not really counters to dodging and teleporting so even with a reveal you wont catch them, they still will escape.

You realize that a fair battle isn't just about one player managing to survive against an enemy... surviving that way doesn't contribute to defeating the enemy it only contributes to wasting your own time and letting the enemy still do what they want. And while there are builds specifically build for escaping capabilities that don't even need stealth to escape some slower foes, the same complaint you can have against builds that you can use all the stealth and mobility in the game to fight against and still not be able to win.

The way stealth is implemented in gw2 is one of the more ineresting designs in my opinion since it's not permanent, it's short duration, but it can stack up to 5 times, it doesn't make you immune to damage, on the other hand dmg doesn't specifically take you out of stealth, it has a timer you are locked out of it after lending direct dmg and there are also some abilities and sigils that have this specific function.

While I don't think there is a place for perma stealth builds in the game for anything else than trolling, anet did remove most of the offenders in time, so perma stealth isn't something that still exists in the game.

[bq pd.2148]

@NuhDah.9812 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@"Eramonster.2718" said:Stealth was never okay from day one, unless the class profession you're using have access and is actively using it :lol:. Stealth trap as a solution? Supplies needed aside, you need to lure the invisible enemy in. What if the user's intention is to persue a running target from going stealth to escape or resetting? And channeling 4 seconds to setup the trap while the enemy is lurking? :lol:. Not to mention there are ways to remove or survive "revealed". ahem*

the problem with the trap is the much longer duration reveal then just those 1-6 seconds skill based reveals offer + it being undodgeable.the trap is not an issue in 1 vs 1 fights as your right channeling 4s often means they are dead. still everyday people use those traps against me, not in 1 on 1 but then i am already outnumbered because then i cannot avoid those traps being planted, if planted outside my FoV i might step into it in a bad moment and die. yes i often survive those traps, the problem is i have to remove that revealed or i am dead because it lasts just way too long. against a stealth heavy build reveal is nearly as strong as a stun yet they never last 20 seconds and you got way more options to get rid of them.sure everyone can have a reveal but the reveal has to be of reasonable duration and application, therefor also avoidable if you see the reveal comming.

what bothers me more is that there are very few people actually playing builds depending on stealth, for many builds utilizing stealth they will most likely survive even revealed so this is not really what is going to help against em, as they still have plenty of mobility, endurance etc. and well there are not really counters to dodging and teleporting so even with a reveal you wont catch them, they still will escape.

You realize that a fair battle isn't just about one player managing to survive against an enemy... surviving that way doesn't contribute to defeating the enemy it only contributes to wasting your own time and letting the enemy still do what they want. And while there are builds specifically build for escaping capabilities that don't even need stealth to escape some slower foes, the same complaint you can have against builds that you can use all the stealth and mobility in the game to fight against and still not be able to win.

The way stealth is implemented in gw2 is one of the more ineresting designs in my opinion since it's not permanent, it's short duration, but it can stack up to 5 times, it doesn't make you immune to damage, on the other hand dmg doesn't specifically take you out of stealth, it has a timer you are locked out of it after lending direct dmg and there are also some abilities and sigils that have this specific function.

While I don't think there is a place for perma stealth builds in the game for anything else than trolling, anet did remove most of the offenders in time, so perma stealth isn't something that still exists in the game.

permastealth while not attacking does exist, the old condi builds that killed without ever being visible got nerfed ofc to no longer being a threat. the problem is many people like to discard the investment into stealth and think a thief that stays in permastealth between his fights will still have everything else the class offers. as i said stealth is only of short duration but stackable, to keep it permanent you have to permanently use resources be it ini, cooldowns or with silent scope endurance. resources you might lack infight. the issue in discussing stealth is that most people participating in the discussion only fought against it and never actually played it themselves enough to face experienced opponents showing them their limits. this makes it really hard to explain the effects of demanded changes.

[BlueMelody.6398]

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@BlueMelody.6398 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:Take stealth out of the game, problem solved.

Agree 100%. Stealth in this game is implemented terribly and should be removed, with thieves given extra dodges (oops, they already have that) or mobility (hmm, they have that too) to compensate.

Ok, no compensation needed.

Also the one and only warrior reveal utility is not useful in any realistic build, so warrior basically has no practical reveal either.

• Someone complaining about something that has being okay for 6 years?

It has never been okay.

• Someone who is also no aware that Thieves always had 3 dodges with the old Feline Grace? That perhaps forgot that the 3 dodges locked on Daredevil was in fact, a nerf to the Acrobatic Core trait line?

That statement has no relevance to the point. Even the least mobile thief build has enough stealth and mobility to be unkillable if played with even a modicum of skill.

• Someone that also forgot that every class has its own mobility skills nowadays.

Don't make me laugh. No class can match a thief for mobility, and some can't come remotely close. There are very few builds a thief can't escape from at any point they choose to do so.

• A Spellbreaker complaining about thief?

Thieves/stealth classes are the most impossible for a spellbreaker to kill, so yes, that makes perfect sense.

Here is the advice that was repeated hundred times in this discussion.If stealth is a problem for you, please play a class and/or build that can counter it properly.

Telling someone that the solution to a broken mechanic is to play another class is admitting that there is a problem.

[bq pd.2148]

@BlueMelody.6398 said:

• A Spellbreaker complaining about thief?

Thieves/stealth classes are the most impossible for a spellbreaker to kill, so yes, that makes perfect sense.

the problem for a warrior vs a thief is not really the stealth. it is the highly telegraphed animations on his side. thief is desinged to avoid hits and stealth is the weakest and strongest tool for this in one. weakest because you still take damage and i daily kill thieves that are in stealth but strongest as it breaks target wich makes it hard to focus you in a group fight and in 1 vs 1 many will stop their skill spamming.my issue with this thread is that a way too general solution to a general issue is proposed. i assume the thread opener is a necro, for a necro even a reveal utility (not just core necro shroud5) wont help him fighting deadeyes as their issue against them is range advantage and the inability for the nekro to pressure hard enough and fast enough on that range, a reveal utility wont fix that. thats similar to warrior situation, warrior has 2 reveal skills and neither helps in a 1 vs 1 to kill the deadeye because there are other issues in the fight. reveal skill in most cases are only usefull in Xvs1 thief as you need to be able to kill them right away, if you pressure them hard without killing them they will do what every roamer does - disengage. i mean i find myself on my thief often in 1 vs X situation but i am not sure we need tools that only are usefull when you outnumber your opponent. what you would need is better gap closers/range pressure especially on necro + warrior, those are the 2 easier to kill opponents as deadeye because of their lack in that regard. maybe you will get something like that in your next elite spec.also as this is a group game a really good defense against a deadeye is stealth because he has no reveal. now other thieves stealth i mostly am able to disrupt but fighting a group if they got a scrapper i cant just attack that gyro with 5 stealthed players inside. in 1 vs 1 i can, but as this game is more about groups, there i cant. giving everyone a reveal would mean that wouldnt protect you from a deadeye anymore and in most cases that reveal wont help you to kill the deadeye. the deadeye has the high damage, the builds struggleing to kill deadeyes usually dont.

[eley crey.2905]

Honestly, I've been main-ing thief through two different accounts since 2012 and I think stealth is and always has been the most broken, anti-competitive, mechanic I've ever seen. With that said I guarantee it's not going anywhere since they just nerfed the non-stealth using condi build to the ground while buffing perma stealth. Either way playing perma stealth is boring so I'm switching to my guard for a main.

I think there are two easy solutions to it, have stealth be a camo that blends you into the environment but still leaves you somewhat visible if you pay attention or just not have it break target lock.

Thieves aren't the only problem here either, mesmers are ridiculous., though lately they seem like they've been nerfed. I think it just comes down to DE being buffed up to FoTM status. Give it some time and it'll be brought back down.

[Absconditus.6804]

In my eyes, the only issue with Stealth stems from one skill; Backstab. The Thief class has had this skill pretty much untouched for all these years when it honestly should have been gutted and re-worked long ago. I'll admit to having enjoyed cheesing my way around on Thief for a good portion of a year in the past, it's kinda fun being all-powerful and without too many weaknesses, but I did acknowledge to myself that there were no real skill involved in my roaming kills when I instantly put someone into downed state. It's a dumb skill and pretty terrible game design. Stealth is in my eyes not that big a problem. One skill's insane burst from Stealth is. No skill should instantly down another player without there being proper counter play and/or visual projection to it. That is just bad game design.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@BlueMelody.6398 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

• Someone who is also no aware that Thieves always had 3 dodges with the old Feline Grace? That perhaps forgot that the 3 dodges locked on Daredevil was in fact, a nerf to the Acrobatic Core trait line?

That statement has no relevance to the point. Even the least mobile thief build has enough stealth and mobility to be unkillable if played with even a modicum of skill.

In previous metas, sure, but this just isn't true today. Play D/D and tell me how that goes.

• Someone that also forgot that every class has its own mobility skills nowadays.

Don't make me laugh. No class can match a thief for mobility, and some can't come remotely close. There are very few builds a thief can't escape from at any point they choose to do so.

Mirage has higher landspeed and 3D movement in general than the thief, and warrior as superior movespeed on flat surfaces.

• A Spellbreaker complaining about thief?

Thieves/stealth classes are the most impossible for a spellbreaker to kill, so yes, that makes perfect sense.

This is just downright false. A number of videos have come out from pro-level warriors/thieves which basically all agree the thief can beat the spellbreaker if and only if it plays 100% perfectly. One mistake or mistimed skill and the spellbreaker auto-wins unless they just outright suck or aren't playing a remotely good build. I've done in-game testing with a few warriors at the top end of the scale and we've been able to mutually conclude that D/D thief is hard-countered at every single angle of a fight into warrior for example, with literally no advantages, often times making the matchup mathematically unwinnable for the thief depending on builds selected, or otherwise requiring the warrior to have a seemingly negative IQ...

Here is the advice that was repeated hundred times in this discussion.If stealth is a problem for you, please play a class and/or build that can counter it properly.

Telling someone that the solution to a broken mechanic is to play another class is admitting that there is a problem.

It's not a problem innately. Stealth is a problem by current skill implementation in how it stacks and how it's casted so frequently without risk to cover major animations like MB/Triclone shatter and various Holo Forge skills. I kill stealthed players with single-target skills all the time because their patterns are almost always super predictable. You're just refusing to accept the fact you're wrong and clearly aren't willing to actually learn how it works firsthand or accept the advice on how to deal with it.

[archmagus.7249]

@Anthony.3207 said:Engineer has both - great anti stealth reveling - and good group stealth.

Engineers have elixir S toss / stealth gyro on scrapper / and they can smoke bomb blast 10 people into stealth for a few seconds.

Engineers are pretty stealthy and great counter to stealth. But they don't have evades and mobility like thief do.

Detection pulse is good, but it can be interrupted and has an animation which can be dodged. Don't forget about lesser utility goggles, which is instant cast, and applies 10 stacks of vulnerability. Though, I have had that skill evaded once.

[Jitters.9401]

J was gone for 5 years. Just reading this now but should be addressed for future complaints. 

 

My thief has no more dodges than any other tool I have. So 1 lie dismissed.

Plus every profession has a means to increase endurance... whether by weapon swap or abilities.  If you don't use either the issue is yours fault not the Thiel class.

[ASP.8093]

9 minutes ago, Jitters.9401 said:

J was gone for 5 years. Just reading this now but should be addressed for future complaints.

You are replying to a thread from 2018.