How should chrono be nerfed?

[Carighan.6758]

@"saloja.7920" said:Take away quickness or alacrity from the mesmer repertoire. Should open the doors for some other classes.

But thematically it fits.

If GW2 employed "tightly" designed classes like most RPGs, we'd have a class which is basically done at Quickness, Alacrity and Slow. Nothing else. Pure buff/debuff support. And it could be made to work. In MMORPGs in particular you need a similarly convenient "package" from another class, even if the specific selection is not quite the same. So long as 2-3 specs bring each effect, you'll probably have any raid-relevant effect at least once.

But even that doesn't work in GW2, because you need the gear and all to go along with it. I don't just buff up Quickness with a raid-wide buff I have to re-apply once an hour.

[Belishine.7493]

wow this is hard to talk about becouse the chrono is a in a sence a time wizard. if chrono was only a suport and not the tank i could see the meta geting i huge shake up for good reson. in theory the chrono should be what is called the buffer/debuffer meaning we buff party with stuff like quickness and healing like regen and debuff like slow and bleed from a skill/spell called open wounds. this means no tanking but a huge support role for chrono and would feel more like the original class set up that it was basses off of. now the way it is in the game right now yes your both the tank and support in the part and no one can compet with it. i think this is were the mess up is were mes can tank and support with very little skill. i think chrono should just be more of a support then the king support/tank.

[Refia Montes.3205]

@saloja.7920 said:Take away quickness or alacrity from the mesmer repertoire. Should open the doors for some other classes.

take away quickness and alacrity from Chronomancer :thonking:

[InsaneQR.7412]

@saloja.7920 said:Take away quickness or alacrity from the mesmer repertoire. Should open the doors for some other classes.

You do not even cut it all away. Make it compeed.Chrono should be able to do both, but not at once. This way we need an alacrity support and a quickness support. And because harrier exists on of them could also be easily the healer.As i mentioned above this how i would structure chrono traits:

Minors:Time Splitter: defaultTime catches up: Interupting a foe slows them. Shattering deals increased dmg against movement impaired foes.*Time marches on: default

Adept:All well that ends well: default

Time Shift: (replaces delayed reaction) : applying slow gives quickness.

Improved Alacrity: default+Interupting a foes gives alacrity.

Master:Danger Time: default

Seize the moment: Gain quickness for each phantasm summoned.

Flow of time: Gain alacrity for each clone you shatter.

GM:

Lost time: Default. (maybe improve it, like a boonrip or something like that)

Chronophantasma: default

Illusionary reversion: reduced threshold to 1 clone.

Thats how i would do it.Still be strong but distinct roles.Dmg orientedPhantasms and quickness orientedAlacrity and clone oriented

Ofc it will tune down the versatility but it would open different playstyles IMO. Additionally the well trait is now compeeding with the other boon traits which only benefits iffhealers now and not pure buffers.

Ofc dome ideas may be a little bit over the top but its mostly for conceptional effect.

[saloja.7920]

@InsaneQR.7412 said:Chrono should be able to do both, but not at once.This sounds good as well.

[starlinvf.1358]

@"Belishine.7493" said:wow this is hard to talk about becouse the chrono is a in a sence a time wizard. if chrono was only a suport and not the tank i could see the meta geting i huge shake up for good reson. in theory the chrono should be what is called the buffer/debuffer meaning we buff party with stuff like quickness and healing like regen and debuff like slow and bleed from a skill/spell called open wounds. this means no tanking but a huge support role for chrono and would feel more like the original class set up that it was basses off of. now the way it is in the game right now yes your both the tank and support in the part and no one can compet with it. i think this is were the mess up is were mes can tank and support with very little skill. i think chrono should just be more of a support then the king support/tank.

But likes its been pointed out before..... you can't just take out the tank aspect, because much of that comes from Core Mesmer. And killing too much of the boon share functions on top of that (or reducing to only alacrity and quickness) makes it a one/two trick pony that puts it in the same boat as Druid. The main reason Druid is still in is because of the Unique buffs and Grace of the Land being an easy might stack. Take away the might stacking, and the choice is less obvious as you're now taking a non-dps slot for only a 10% power damage buff, when you can still get all the other buffs off a DPS Soulbeast build plus extra burst damage from stance sharing.

They'd have to redesign chorno from the ground up to replace the Illusion and Shatter mechanics to move all the defenses into the weapon skills, and take Quickness and Alacrity out of the Wells, and into the F-skills as a replacement. But theres still the question of Chaos and Inspiration interaction with the "not illusion" mechanics.

[MikeL.8260]

As long as there is room for all classes in a raid which is the case atm. there's no need whatsoever to nerf anything at all.

[Walhalla.5473]

How to nerf chrono hmm... I wouldn't nerf chrono. Not now.

The problem right now is not that chrono is OP. The problem is that no other class can do alacrity AND quickness, if we nerf chrono then we have the risk that the two chrono slots will be replaced by 4 slots for firebrands and revs, which for raids just sucks. We had mirror comp for a long time which wasn't really fun or diverse, this would be a step back towards it.

We need real alternatives for the chrono, right now nerfing chrono wouldn't create a real alternative it would just restrict the meta thanks to how boons work right now and that no other spec can give out both alacrity and quickness. Both things need to change.

First. I would make sure that boon application in raids will hit 10 players. No questions here, raids are 10 man content, 5 man boons are just bullshit. ( this change would be step away from chronojail and destroy the last remnant of the mirror comp )Second. I would either make a new spec with both alacrity and quickness application or I would change fb and herald ( the supposed supporter for rev ) to make sure that each of them can give perma alacrity and quickness. ( renegade needs to loose quickness application then if we make this for herald otherwise just change renegade )Then, implement the changes and observe for a few weeks. If we have a real alternative but noone is taking it, then we can look if chrono needs a nerf or if the alternative needs a buff.

With this, we could see more varied comps.

Again right now the problem isn't the chrono, its the lack of any real alternative and we need some. Those alternatives are not created by nerfs but by changes and buffs to other support specs.

[castillle.5248]

As someone who has 0 experience with raids, has not done cms, does a whopping 3-5k dps on both daredevil and holosmith in t4s, gets carried every single time, is a certified silver rank in pvp with a 3-1 loss-win ratio, and gets gifts of battle in wvw by flipping camps no one defends before semi afk-ing with turrets in the path of dolyaks, this is what I would do.

Engineer, Tempest, Herald, and Necromancer get access to storm and frost spirit aura replacementsRangers and Warriors get bannersChronos can choose between some alacrity and quickness, a lot of alacrity and a little quickness, or a lot of quickness and little alacrity for the team. They can maintain perma quickness and alacrity on themselves regardless.Renegade can choose to provide alacrity permanently.Firebrand can choose to provide quickness permanently.

For raids you still need 4 support type characters - Banners (Ranger or Warrior), Quickness (Chrono or Firebrand), Alacrity (2nd Chrono or Renegade), Frost Spirit, Storm Spirit, Heals, and Might (Engineer, Herald, Tempest, or Necromancer).

! Auras! All stat boosting auras now provide 200 of their stat at level 80! Spotter, Pinpoint Distribution, Strength in Numbers, Empower Allies, and Assasins Presence now grants 200 for their respective stat at level 80.! Frost Spirit Aura now provides Precision and Ferocity. Does not stack with Banner of Discipline, Spotter, or Assassins Presence.! Storm Spirit Aura now provides Power and Condition Damage. Does not stack with Banner of Strength, Empower Allies or Pinpoint Distribution.! Stone Spirit Aura now provides Toughness and Vitality. Does not stack with Banner of Defense or Strength in Numbers.!! Buffs -! Empowered - Increase damage dealt by 5%.! Armor Piercing - Attacks Apply Vulnerability(3 stacks, 10 sec duration) on hit.!! Engineer! HIGH - Elixir Throw & Aoe Elixirs now affect 10 players and grant the empowered boon. Elixirs have 20% longer duration, 20% shorter recharge, and grant might.! Iron Blooded Potion Mists - Reduce Physical and condition damage for each boon you have. If you have more than 3 boons, Elixir H, B, U, and R will also affect 4 nearby players with 50% efficiency and grant empowered!! Acid Bomb - No longer an elixir skill. Grants Armor Piercing to allies in a radius.! Infusion Bomb - Now considered an elixir skill!! Elementalist! Tempestuous Aria - Grants Armor Piercing to allies when using shouts.! Switch position of Harmonious Conduit and Unstable Conduit! Harmonious Conduit - Grant empowered to allies when an overload becomes available.! Imbued Melodies - Warhorn skills now affect 10 allies. Boons granted by warhorn lasts 50% longer.! Unstable conduit - Grants Stability and a random boon at the start of overload and 3 random boons at the end. Deal 2% more damage for each boon.! Lucid Singularity - Overloads grant you Quickness and Alacrity while removing movement impairing effects. Damage increased by 10% when under quickness or alacrity.!!! Feel The Burn - CD reduced to 15 seconds. Grants fury and might instead of fire aura.! Heat Sync - Boons shared is standardized with Signet of Inspiration.!
! Guardian! Potent Haste - Quickness granted is now 3 seconds. Might removed.! Pure of Voice - Shouts now grant boons to 10 allies. Recharge reduction removed.! Stalwart Speed - Granting quickness gives aegis(8 sec cd). Mantras now provide boons to 10 allies in a radius and effects provided by mantras last 20% longer.! Altruistic Healing - Now has an internal cooldown of 1 second per ally and heals both the ally and the firebrand! Weighted Terms - Mantra cast time reduced from 2 3/4th secs to 1 1/2 sec. Final Charge now inflicts Immobilize to nearby enemies and armor piercing to nearby allies.
!! Overwhelming Celerity - Now grants 10 stacks of might!! Mesmer! Lost Time - Wells now affect 10 allies! Improved Alacrity - Well of recall will now grant 1 sec of alacrity per pulse! Illusionary ReversionImproved Quickness - Well of action will now grant 1 sec of quickness per pulse! Switch the position of Danger Time and All's Well that Ends Well! All's Well that Ends Well - Recharge time of wells is also reduced by 20%. Wells now heal per interval! Chronophantasma - The first time a phantasm would become a clone, it also resummons itself and attacks again! Flow of Time - Alacrity you grant yourself lasts 2x longer! Seize the Moment - Quickness you grant yourself lasts 2x longer. +10% more damage when under the effects of quickness! Time Catches Up - Gain 1 sec of Quickness and Alacrity per clone when shattering. Shatters do 10% more damage to movement impaired foes!! Well of Action - CD Increased to 35 seconds! Well of Recall - Alacrity Duration reduced to 2 seconds! Lesser Signet of Inspiration - Boon duration no longer affects boons shared by lesser signet of inspiration.! Tides of Time - Grants alacrity and quickness for 1 second and aegis for 5 seconds to allies it passes through. Touching the returning wave reduces cooldown of shatter abilities by 10 seconds!! Necromancer! Augury of Death - Shouts will also grant armor piercing to allies.! Abrasive Gift - Granting Barier now provides Armor Piercing to allies.! Vampiric Rituals - Wells gain reduced recharge time. They now grant protection to allies when cast, and Fury with every pulse. Siphoning health grants allies empowered.! Sand Savant - Barriers fading in the sand shade causes it to erupt into flames and grant might.!! Signet of Vampirism - Increased duration to 10 seconds and no longer has a 25 stack limit. Active siphon heal will now use the lesser passive siphon heal amounts.!! Ranger! Grace of the Land - Grant 2 stacks of might and the Empowered boon! Predators Cunning - Attacking from behind or the side now grants armor piercing to allies.!! Spirits are now considered objects and are untargettable. Spirits have no cooldown unless it is sacrificed before its timer expires. Sacrificing a spirit refreshes their aura/boons as they fade! Cold Snap now provides slow in addition to chills! Call lightning is now a 3 second stun! Quicksand now grants Barrier to allies with each pulse in addition to the cripple & Immobilize! Solar Flare - Radius increased to 400! Call of the Wild & Lesser Call of the Wild - Number of targets increased to 10!!! Revenant! Lasting Legacy - Kalla's Fervor you inspire lasts longer and is more potent. Heroic Command grants more might per stack of Kalla's Fervor and empowered! Serene Rejuvenation - Natural Harmony grants aegis for 5s when it starts charging! Soothing Bastion - Shield skills now prevent the next skill from using energy. No longer increases duration of boons for nearby allies.!! Renegade legends are now invulnerable to damage but maintains a defiance bar! Facet boons now affect 10 players! Consuming a facet applies Armor Piercing to allies.! Facet of Nature - Now pr! ovides the empowered boon instead of 33% increased boon duration! Righteous Rebel - Now also increases the number of targets affected by Orders from Above to 10 allies!! Warrior! Phalanx Strength - Grants allies empowered when you grant yourself might.!

[TanksK.4795]

Heal spot: can be druid necro tempest engi whateverBuff druid, necro, tempest engi to give might, fury to 10 man

Buff spot: Chrono Fb ReBuff fb and re to both give ala and quickness to 10 man.Buff Chrono boon share to 10 man.

Comp without Tank roleMeta: heal + fb/re best dps but low CC, no other boons such as vigor, retaliation for 10 man squad. Need to stack tight. Could bring a more CC but will lose dps.Safer comp: heal + chrono : more CC more boons

With Tank comp.Now every class can tank in the meta comp. ……….Or just have those Fb, Re, Chrono tank while providing buff ( hard ).Done.Don't have to nerf anyone, ez life

Something something like that

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

Right now there is only one thing that can be done to dethrone chrono and that is removeing his permanent quickness/alacrity. In my oppinion that is bad aproach since it doesnt encourage teamplay. The problem is not that chrono is OP. You cannot say chrono is op because there is nothing that do similar job. Only possible replacement is firebrand/renegade. This would be fine on some bosses IF firebrand mantra would select targets not based on distance but based on subgroups. I am convinved that if firebrand mantras will get fixed and maybe if renegade alacrity is changed to 10 man then on multiple bosses fb/ren would be better.

For those that remember in the beggining there was only 1 chrono in raids and anet nerfed it so 2 are better.You guys need to understand that there will always be best option. If you want diversity then you need diferent best option based on bosses (like you have with dps now). You will be supriced but there are multiple q/a providere based on bosses. Right now those are 3-4 DIFERENT builds so it is not like there is no diversity. If you want another class there then it has to overcome all options on some bosses.

[Crackmonster.2790]

Many are suggesting to nerf tank aspects into the ground - let me remind you chrono is a shield specialization, tanking is in the genes to butcher that would be sad.

The bigger issue is in overall game design and also maybe too many things on chrono. The biggest problem of them all is that a few classes get way too much boosting power compared to other classes. One class can boost damage by what 30-50% or something, this makes the few classes who can do that almost mandatory, which in turn reduces the viability of other classes/builds. That is the biggest root of the issue, it is even inherited in fractal setups where to optimize small group dps output you need these classes because their boosts are too large.

Additionally i should discuss separation of boons. As there seem to be multiple types of boons - the long duration uptime ones: Fury, alacrity, might, quickness, vigor and maybe swiftness, but there are also the high powered shorter duration ones: Aegis, protection, retaliation and stability, finally there is regeneration which is more a healing thing of it's own. In this post i address mainly the long duration boons.

How then, would you nerf them? We have seen a lot of talk here about how the chrono "time" theme fits quickness and alacrity, and some have realized that having full uptime on both is too much - they then suggest not being able to keep up durations of both because they are afraid to lose one. Let me warn you against this approach - it will lead to class stacking instead in order to achieve full uptime on the most powerful buffs. Instead i would suggest to strip away the multiboon boosting across the board, and making it easier for single classes to share a particular single boon. In fact i would attack the whole support class ideology. What is that all about? having a wanker there just because his passive buffs are game breaking? - there is another way to achieve the same support but i will get to that further down.

First, let me address alacrity and quickness, the supposed "time" theme. Actually, only alacrity truly fits that theme of time magic, interfering with time by speeding up cooldowns. Quickness is more an agility trait, a physical trait. Therefore i suggest most strongly to preserve alacrity over quickness.

If we look at the greater perspective and more classic designs of games throughout time - i find wisdom in each class being able to share a particular thing. This gives them all more relevance, a relevance that can also help to overall overcome them lacking dps compared to some others when picking raid compositions. I again question the value of dedicated support builds. A build for slackers who don't have to work as hard to earn their rewards? A role which only undermines others' and makes less classes viable? I will also bring you back to remember that not being able to achieve full uptime promotes class stacking. With that in mind:

• Dial back all multiboonsharing classes as they only undermine the roles and spots of other classes
• Seek to ideally only have 1 boon reliably shared by each class, with some classes sharing the same boon and the highest dps builds not sharing any. Classes can still apply other boons only to themselves
• Make it easier to achieve full uptime on the classes main party buff, provided you use your rotation well as a normal good player would
• Remove Concentration from the game. This stat serves no real purpose - it screams: "hey i take this and my performance matters not so much, coz i just need to be here for buffs, and an abitrary demand for concentration to be able to maintain them". Everyone should contribute equally. There is no need for a slacker role at all, healers are already the real support role. Again it only undermines roles of other classes. It makes people gear to be wanker and less relevant in other content/own play.

At the end of the day - if you do not remove big chunks of the abused power(primarily boonsharing) from the most broken classes, you will have the same meta and things will not change. This is why when chronos are scared coz they don't want to lose either quickness or alacrity and seeks to undermine such changes - it is no good for the game overall health.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@"Crackmonster.2790" said:Many are suggesting to nerf tank aspects into the ground - let me remind you chrono is a shield specialization, tanking is in the genes to butcher that would be sad.

The bigger issue is in overall game design and also maybe too many things on chrono. The biggest problem of them all is that a few classes get way too much boosting power compared to other classes. One class can boost damage by what 30-50% or something, this makes the few classes who can do that almost mandatory, which in turn reduces the viability of other classes/builds. That is the biggest root of the issue, it is even inherited in fractal setups where to optimize small group dps output you need these classes because their boosts are too large.

Additionally i should discuss separation of boons. As there seem to be multiple types of boons - the long duration uptime ones: Fury, alacrity, might, quickness, vigor and maybe swiftness, but there are also the high powered shorter duration ones: Aegis, protection, retaliation and stability, finally there is regeneration which is more a healing thing of it's own. In this post i address mainly the long duration boons.

How then, would you nerf them? We have seen a lot of talk here about how the chrono "time" theme fits quickness and alacrity, and some have realized that having full uptime on both is too much - they then suggest not being able to keep up durations of both because they are afraid to lose one. Let me warn you against this approach - it will lead to class stacking instead in order to achieve full uptime on the most powerful buffs. Instead i would suggest to strip away the multiboon boosting across the board, and making it easier for single classes to share a particular single boon. In fact i would attack the whole support class ideology. What is that all about? having a kitten there just because his passive buffs are game breaking? - there is another way to achieve the same support but i will get to that further down.

First, let me address alacrity and quickness, the supposed "time" theme. Actually, only alacrity truly fits that theme of time magic, interfering with time by speeding up cooldowns. Quickness is more an agility trait, a physical trait. Therefore i suggest most strongly to preserve alacrity over quickness.

If we look at the greater perspective and more classic designs of games throughout time - i find wisdom in each class being able to share a particular thing. This gives them all more relevance, a relevance that can also help to overall overcome them lacking dps compared to some others when picking raid compositions. I again question the value of dedicated support builds. A build for slackers who don't have to work as hard to earn their rewards? A role which only undermines others' and makes less classes viable? I will also bring you back to remember that not being able to achieve full uptime promotes class stacking. With that in mind:

• Dial back all multiboonsharing classes as they only undermine the roles and spots of other classes
• Seek to ideally only have 1 boon reliably shared by each class, with some classes sharing the same boon and the highest dps builds not sharing any. Classes can still apply other boons only to themselves
• Make it easier to achieve full uptime on the classes main party buff, provided you use your rotation well as a normal good player would
• Remove Concentration from the game. This stat serves no real purpose - it screams: "hey i take this and my performance matters not so much, coz i just need to be here for buffs, and an abitrary demand for concentration to be able to maintain them". Everyone should contribute equally. There is no need for a slacker role at all, healers are already the real support role. Again it only undermines roles of other classes. It makes people gear to be kitten and less relevant in other content/own play.

At the end of the day - if you do not remove big chunks of the abused power(primarily boonsharing) from the most broken classes, you will have the same meta and things will not change. This is why when chronos are scared coz they don't want to lose either quickness or alacrity and seeks to undermine such changes - it is no good for the game overall health.

If every class can share only 1 boon then:If each boon can be shared only by 1 class then to get all of them you need all classes -> no variation in squads.If multiple class can share same boon then one will be best and rest will be usless since they have no place to fit in (since you dont have free spots in squads anymore)If you remove concentration then there will be no way to run support build. Support builds are only viable if they provide more actual dps then a dps class and without concentration it is no longer case (since you need multiple classes to stack those boons anyway you dont need a class that sacrifice damage for those boons).

And last thing if you remove support builds raids will be 10 individuals instead of 10 man strong team. Chrono is not a porblem. There will always be best option be it support or dps class. Chrono is best option just because there is nothing that can provide same buffs. Also there are players (like me) that enjoy playing supports and do not enjoy dps.

[Crackmonster.2790]

I know there are players like you who enjoy playing support so you don't have to perform and can get carried! - face it support role is just a nonsensical i lol along for passives, role. The only reason you like it more is because you can relax and not worry about performing. There is a reason games arent generally built around having such a role. They have healers to aid and support, actively. But those who gain power from something are always afraid to lose it and will always seek to preserve it, except some rare individuals stricken by guilt or insight. Especially when that power comes more easily than otherwise.Also, you missed reading some parts it seems as i didn't say only 1 class should have the boons.

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

@"RabbitUp.8294" said:The problem is deeper than just chrono. Making a 10-man game mode when support skills are limited to 5 players creates the problem of mirror comp. It reached a point where 6 classes were supporting 4 dps.

Even if we ignore the amount of different boons Chaos chrono provides, chrono in general provides too much role compression. For just 1 raid spot, it tanks, heals, and provides CC, boon removal, reflect, quickness and alacrity. There's no other class with both those boons in their kit, and that's the core of the problem. FB and Rene were created to work together, and that's why the alt comp couldn't compete, since chrono and druid don't have the same problem; they complement each other, but can still function independently, especially chrono.

So then shouldn't the logical next step be to make Chrono/Druid need each other more the way FB/Rev "need each other"? Ideally while also giving each pairing a niche they are better at.

Only nerf I think Chrono needs is to delete might, resistance, stability and aegis from SoI. Also delete might on phantasm summon and Chaos traited F1. Dom/Inspiration can still share aegis but it's not high duration. Stability is on mantra of concentration but won't have high up time. Resistance from Chaos is short duration and mutually exclusive with aegis share. Druids can apply aoe 25 might and Chrono cannot help with it. This pair will have low aegis, stability and resistance but other boons are covered. Strong CC from both Chrono and Druid.

Fix FB mantra boon sharing to go to their sub group first. FB/Rev combo has high healing, aegis, resistance, and stability up time compared to Druid/Chrono but weaker CC.

Now certain DPS classes/fights favor different combos. DPS variants of Ele or Guard with arcane or virtues trait lines want the support with lots of boons (1-2% dmg bonus per boon) and aegis (20% bonus damage) so ideally FB/Rev BUT have to deal with low CC from their support.

[Ooops.8694]

It could actually be more effective to nerf druid's mightstacking to 5 targets than to nerf chronos. This way each subgroup can play chrono/druid or fb/renegade (or chrono/warri & fb/renegade if you don't want a second healer).

[Imperadordf.2687]

@Crackmonster.2790 said:I know there are players like you who enjoy playing support so you don't have to perform and can get carried! - face it support role is just a nonsensical i lol along for passives, role. The only reason you like it more is because you can relax and not worry about performing. There is a reason games arent generally built around having such a role. They have healers to aid and support, actively. But those who gain power from something are always afraid to lose it and will always seek to preserve it, except some rare individuals stricken by guilt or insight. Especially when that power comes more easily than otherwise.Also, you missed reading some parts it seems as i didn't say only 1 class should have the boons.

Dude what? Chrono is always the one who carries pleb DPS players. That is an absolute fact.

[Crackmonster.2790]

So it's not the support role you really like - it's the amount of power, or the overwhelming numbers of tools to handle situations you like?

Either way, both those rebuttals have nothing to do with support role in itself more general overpoweredness and thereby is a slick strawman to distract from the point at hand.

In the best case, you like that the role means everything goes faster and smoother while simultaneously you can slack more. This is exactly what i criticize, the passive buffer try to keep his role in game so he can slack more and provide his benefits passively.

All other benefits, like aegis sharing etc can be done as regular build no need support for that - support is for the slacker who enjoys he can slack along and still be relevant to group.

[Zaraki.5784]

It should be nerfed by removing all the support it gives while tanking, to make it on par with other classes who can just tank without offering anything more to that.

[Bunny.9834]

nerf GS too

[Imperadordf.2687]

@"Crackmonster.2790" said:So it's not the support role you really likeNo, it is exactly what I like. Buffing my group for them to do more DPS, handling some mechanics so my DPS players can do damage without getting interrupted, healing them if needed...it's the amount of power, or the overwhelming numbers of tools to handle situations you like?You're saying it like I am a dark lord who abuses chrono or something lol.Yes, I like handling more than one thing. Is this bad? I handle more things, my dps doesn't have to do many mechanics, so it can dps better. It's not "overwhelming numbers of tools" to handle situations "I like (I don't like Feedback'ing Matthias, I don't like being Cavechrono on Escort, tanking Deimos)". It's doing what I'm responsible for.Either way, both those rebuttals have nothing to do with support role in itself more general overpoweredness and thereby is a slick strawman to distract from the point at hand.:thinking:In the best case, you like that the role means everything goes faster and smoother while simultaneously you can slack more. This is exactly what i criticize, the passive buffer try to keep his role in game so he can slack more and provide his benefits passively.Do you know what "passive" means?"not involving visible reaction or active participation" pulled from dictionary.com.Saying support is a passive role in this game is a straight up lie.All other benefits, like aegis sharing etc can be done as regular build no need support for that - support is for the slacker who enjoys he can slack along and still be relevant to group.Try playing a support chrono and try "slacking" while playing it. See me if you get any kills without getting kicked. I would accept even Escort and VG.

[Crackmonster.2790]

Actually i just wanted to flesh out your arguments so they can be revealed. See you try to mix them up and bring em under one umbrella so you can argue to preserve it. Most of what you are talking about, are specifically chrono related - not support ideology related. - these things can already be integrated in tank or healer role, a role that has to perform on level with all others.

The case will always be this: The support role you wish to preserve is one where you can lul around and do thing here and there, mostly have to do enough cooldown use to keep passive buffs up and besides that can run around like a happy uncle helping here or there, but the only reason the "support" is really there is for the passive benefit through boonsharing, this already is all needed to earn the spot. Besides that, most pressure is taken off the class.

I am aware that if you truly slack on chrono you won't be providing your boonsharing much and yes that will get you kicked - when i say slacker i mean there is a minimum level which isn't too great which is essentially all you need to do for your passive buffs then besides that you can lul around and as you say have time to land a random spell here or there while every single other member of the group have to push the hardest, maybe except healer in some cases. But these passive buffs can be integrated in other roles so every single member of the team have to work as hard as as the next man instead of some not really being needed big time outside passive buffs and can find time to lul around and do exactly as you say - cast a thing here or there whereever it can come to some kinda use and tralala.

This is what you like - not being demanded for performance in the same way so you can tralala and be useful in doing random here and there in additional to keeping passive buffs up. The reason in the first place that you have awareness to really do this is exactly because your performance isn't required in the same way so you have more time to look around and this is and that, you are not as focused to optimize rotation at every moment in time. It's slacker role. Your job is to provide passive buffs for other classes so they can work max hard to land the kills. It came into being simply by it possible to optimize group power because 1 or a few classes had gotten too much ability to give buffs everywhere. The other side of the argument is the serious utility creep on chrono - the way you want it preserved with tools for every situation should then be shared to more classes and the game with have serious serious utility creep all across the line.

Who knows, maybe Anet really thinks such a role is a good idea - who knows. I am simply fleshing out why i think it's a lame role.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@Crackmonster.2790 said:I know there are players like you who enjoy playing support so you don't have to perform and can get carried! - face it support role is just a nonsensical i lol along for passives, role. The only reason you like it more is because you can relax and not worry about performing. There is a reason games arent generally built around having such a role. They have healers to aid and support, actively. But those who gain power from something are always afraid to lose it and will always seek to preserve it, except some rare individuals stricken by guilt or insight. Especially when that power comes more easily than otherwise.Also, you missed reading some parts it seems as i didn't say only 1 class should have the boons.

Have you actually played chrono? There's nothing relaxing about it, it's one of the most demanding roles in the game, in terms of rotation, performance during the encounter and even gearing. Meanwhile, the top dps build right now presses 3 buttons.

Playing dps is not getting carried? With chrono providing stability, aegis and protection and druid healing, you can ignore 95% of the mechanics and do golem rotations.

[Imperadordf.2687]

@"Crackmonster.2790" said:Actually i just wanted to flesh out your arguments so they can be revealed. See you try to mix them up and bring em under one umbrella so you can argue to preserve it. Most of what you are talking about, are specifically chrono related - not support ideology related. - these things can already be integrated in tank or healer role, a role that has to perform on level with all others.

The case will always be this: The support role you wish to preserve is one where you can lul around and do thing here and there, mostly have to do enough cooldown use to keep passive buffs up and besides that can run around like a happy uncle helping here or there, but the only reason the "support" is really there is for the passive benefit through boonsharing, this already is all needed to earn the spot. Besides that, most pressure is taken off the class.

I am aware that if you truly slack on chrono you won't be providing your boonsharing much and yes that will get you kicked - when i say slacker i mean there is a minimum level which isn't too great which is essentially all you need to do for your passive buffs then besides that you can lul around and as you say have time to land a random spell here or there while every single other member of the group have to push the hardest, maybe except healer in some cases. But these passive buffs can be integrated in other roles so every single member of the team have to work as hard as as the next man instead of some not really being needed big time outside passive buffs and can find time to lul around and do exactly as you say - cast a thing here or there whereever it can come to some kinda use and tralala.

This is what you like - not being demanded for performance in the same way so you can tralala and be useful in doing random here and there in additional to keeping passive buffs up. The reason in the first place that you have awareness to really do this is exactly because your performance isn't required in the same way so you have more time to look around and this is and that, you are not as focused to optimize rotation at every moment in time. It's slacker role. Your job is to provide passive buffs for other classes so they can work max hard to land the kills. It came into being simply by it possible to optimize group power because 1 or a few classes had gotten too much ability to give buffs everywhere. The other side of the argument is the serious utility creep on chrono - the way you want it preserved with tools for every situation should then be shared to more classes and the game with have serious serious utility creep all across the line.

Who knows, maybe Anet really thinks such a role is a good idea - who knows. I am simply fleshing out why i think it's a lame role.

I am now %100 sure. You haven't played with or as a chrono in your entire life. I'm actually done. Really. You won.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@DuckDuckBOOM.4097 said:

@"RabbitUp.8294" said:The problem is deeper than just chrono. Making a 10-man game mode when support skills are limited to 5 players creates the problem of mirror comp. It reached a point where 6 classes were supporting 4 dps.

Even if we ignore the amount of different boons Chaos chrono provides, chrono in general provides too much role compression. For just 1 raid spot, it tanks, heals, and provides CC, boon removal, reflect, quickness and alacrity. There's no other class with both those boons in their kit, and that's the core of the problem. FB and Rene were created to work together, and that's why the alt comp couldn't compete, since chrono and druid don't have the same problem; they complement each other, but can still function independently, especially chrono.

So then shouldn't the logical next step be to make Chrono/Druid need each other more the way FB/Rev "need each other"? Ideally while also giving each pairing a niche they are better at.

Only nerf I think Chrono needs is to delete might, resistance, stability and aegis from SoI. Also delete might on phantasm summon and Chaos traited F1. Dom/Inspiration can still share aegis but it's not high duration. Stability is on mantra of concentration but won't have high up time. Resistance from Chaos is short duration and mutually exclusive with aegis share. Druids can apply aoe 25 might and Chrono cannot help with it. This pair will have low aegis, stability and resistance but other boons are covered. Strong CC from both Chrono and Druid.

Fix FB mantra boon sharing to go to their sub group first. FB/Rev combo has high healing, aegis, resistance, and stability up time compared to Druid/Chrono but weaker CC.

Now certain DPS classes/fights favor different combos. DPS variants of Ele or Guard with arcane or virtues trait lines want the support with lots of boons (1-2% dmg bonus per boon) and aegis (20% bonus damage) so ideally FB/Rev BUT have to deal with low CC from their support.

SoI provides 1 stack of might, it's not really the issue. Resistance is also pretty short duration and can't be provided on demand. But I don't really like the idea of removing specific boons from SoI, it makes little sense and is a bit too heavy-handed for my tastes.

Druid is still very much responsible for providing the bulk of might needed as it is right now, but that doesn't make chrono and druid reliant on each other. FB/Rev work together because there's nobody else who can provide quickness or alacrity, besides chrono who can provide both. Might can be provided by a number of other builds, it's just that druid does it for 10 people while also providing spirit buffs to those 10 people. But in fractals druid is not even meta anymore, chrono and banner warrior can cover all the boon support needed in just 2 spots, while the extra dps spot makes up for the loss of spirits.

And FB/Rev are not even that bad at cc, revenant staff 5 is as good as an instant Gravity Well on a fraction of the cooldown, and FB has axe 3 and Bane Signet for 450 break bar damage, and can sacrifice some dps for Hammer of Wisdom for another 200.

The problem will always be about role compression. The alt comp requires 2 of each FB and Rev to replace 2 chronos, so it's not only double the amount of spots, but also double the amount of builds. Druid is just an added thing, not connected to chrono, like banner warrior. The alt comp can't substitute for druid anyway, since there's no replacement for spirits, so you would probably have to bring a soulbeast with spirits, adding 1 more niche build requirement to the mix.