Guardian needs help in the support area.

[Arcaedus.7290]

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Indure.5410 said:My opinions on staff:

1. Give auto attacks a 600 range. It is a support weapon and shouldn't be basically in melee range to use. If weapon cleave through walls in WvW is a problem then give it a higher base damage and nerf its damage coefficient to make it not scale with power as well.
2. Orb of light should be ground targeted so that it can be given a blast finisher.
3. Symbol of Swiftness should be removed because swiftness is the worst boon to get in a 1200 range symbol. You either have to painfully stand in it for 4s to get a reasonable amount of swiftness (which defeats its purpose), you are using it to harass or area control in which case the boons are worthless, or you are in a dungeon/raiding environment where swiftness isn't particularly valuable. I would propose a change to Symbol of Quickness. Firebrands already have a lot of quickness so it doesn't change a lot for them, while introducing a decent quickness option for core guardian. Additionally make it the only symbol that is a fire field, which makes a burst finisher from orb of light more valuable in PVE.
4. Empower is fine, although a boost to 15 might would be nice.
5. Change Line of Warding to give swiftness for 12s upon crossing (replaces swiftness lost from symbol).
6. If orb of light passes through a ward then the detonate awards 2 blast finishers from the combo field detonated on. This gives options to PVE where they can use the line of warding to greatly enhance buffs, for example on a the new fire field for 6 might for 40s (max concentration).

I like the synergy here but there's just 1 problem. Quickness. In a symbol. Symbols are too high output for Quickness.

Example:Standard Symbol 4 second duration, 5 pulses of Boon.What's a good duration for pulsing Quickness? 1 second? Alright.Standard Symbol gives a total of 5 seconds of Quickness baseline.Enter Writ of Persistence, adding 2 more pulses to the skill. That's now 7 seconds of Quickness.What kind of a Guardian uses staff? Support. Well, a support Guardian probably has maxed out Boon duration. (not in PvP though, thinking more in terms of WvW)Which makes that 14 seconds of Quickness.What's a good cooldown considering its potential and likely use? I'd say rather high, +30 second cooldown.Do you really want that skill as your third weapon skill?

It just doesn't work. Generally speaking, this is the reason there's little to none of pulsing Quickness skills in the game. The multiplicative nature of pulsing isn't suited to Quickness. But that's especially true for Guardian symbols, as long as Writ of Persistence exists.

This is true. I'd guess it's why axe didn't get quickness despite FB being focused on the boon.

The only other two left really are stability (trident UW does this) and aegis. It's hard to say if either of these could possibly be balanced. Aegis on a symbol could heavily be abused by a bunker guard in pvp and stability suffers from the same problem as quickness as far as pulsing skills go. Perhaps future elite specs could involve modifying symbols to grant quickness, aegis or stab in a single, long dura application once a symbol expires?

[Genesis.8572]

I sadly doubt guardian Staff will get a rework until the pre-balance changes of the next expansion. How long did it take for the engineer to get a rework for its healing kit? Way too long. Same with guardian Staff. If it happens, it will be awhile.

[LetoII.3782]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:

I'll be respectful and have actual discussions when players show they're intelligent enough to have a reasonable discussion.I'm sorry to add an "ArenaNet flag" to this post

Literally the fourth Anet post in this subsection and the first since PoF debugging...We aren't here to be free CSRs, if Anet wishes more control over replies made to bad suggestions, maybe consider making some?

[otto.5684]

I do not understand the all the staff buff/remake requests. It is the strongest support weapon for guardian in PvP, and FB is the strongest support build across all PvP by a huge margin. Also, support guardian in raids is not a thing, and staff has nothing to with it and will not make it so. In order for support guardian to work it needs to be able to compete with chrono and Druid by either providing 25 might stacks or alacrity. Guardian cannot do either.

So what the fuck is staff supposed to do/be?!

[Brutaly.6257]

My take on staff.

Skill 1 should be a single target 1200 range spell that deals moderate damage and also heals the guardian and allies that it passes thru.Skill 2 Make it ground targeted with both a damage component and a heal component. Water field with 240 radius.Skill 3 Make it a a ground targeted spell that does damage in two pulses. The first pulse deals a small amount of damage and removes one condition and the second pulse deal a high amount of damage only. Fire field and 240 radius.Skill 4 just make us able to move and keep the skill as is.Skill 15 add x sec of swiftness and make it a blast finisher and its a great support tool.

[Opopanax.1803]

@otto.5684 said:I do not understand the all the staff buff/remake requests. It is the strongest support weapon for guardian in PvP, and FB is the strongest support build across all PvP by a huge margin. Also, support guardian in raids is not a thing, and staff has nothing to with it and will not make it so. In order for support guardian to work it needs to be able to compete with chrono and Druid by either providing 25 might stacks or alacrity. Guardian cannot do either.

So what the kitten is staff supposed to do/be?!

You don't understand? It's the strongest support weapon because it is the ONLY support weapon. It's used in support builds because it is the only weapon that we have that has support. Shield is the only other one that even comes close, but is only 2 skills.

And the support that it used to have was nerfed and is still lacking when you compare it to other class support weapons.

And staff could be tweaked to make guardians give permamight, though I think the better solution is to nerf chrono/druid so they bring one permabuff, not multiples.

[LetoII.3782]

Then there's poor mace standing by itself in the corner, alone and forgotten :(

[otto.5684]

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@otto.5684 said:I do not understand the all the staff buff/remake requests. It is the strongest support weapon for guardian in PvP, and FB is the strongest support build across all PvP by a huge margin. Also, support guardian in raids is not a thing, and staff has nothing to with it and will not make it so. In order for support guardian to work it needs to be able to compete with chrono and Druid by either providing 25 might stacks or alacrity. Guardian cannot do either.

So what the kitten is staff supposed to do/be?!

You don't understand? It's the strongest support weapon because it is the ONLY support weapon. It's used in support builds because it is the only weapon that we have that has support. Shield is the only other one that even comes close, but is only 2 skills.

And the support that it used to have was nerfed and is still lacking when you compare it to other class support weapons.

And staff could be tweaked to make guardians give permamight, though I think the better solution is to nerf chrono/druid so they bring one permabuff, not multiples.

Anet can increase the might provided by Empower, Staff 4, in PvE to provide 25 stacks of might. This could put FB in a strong position to be a condi damage/support hybrid. With 100% boon duration, you can do 100% uptime of 25 might, protection, reg, quickness and fury (using sword as off hand weapon if needed). Can also add good uptime on stability and retaliation in the mix. Then go either higher in condi or healing as required.

I think for support FB and staff that is fairly good.

[Math.5123]

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@otto.5684 said:I do not understand the all the staff buff/remake requests. It is the strongest support weapon for guardian in PvP, and FB is the strongest support build across all PvP by a huge margin. Also, support guardian in raids is not a thing, and staff has nothing to with it and will not make it so. In order for support guardian to work it needs to be able to compete with chrono and Druid by either providing 25 might stacks or alacrity. Guardian cannot do either.

So what the kitten is staff supposed to do/be?!

You don't understand? It's the strongest support weapon because it is the ONLY support weapon. It's used in support builds because it is the only weapon that we have that has support. Shield is the only other one that even comes close, but is only 2 skills.

And the support that it used to have was nerfed and is still lacking when you compare it to other class support weapons.

And staff could be tweaked to make guardians give permamight, though I think the better solution is to nerf chrono/druid so they bring one permabuff, not multiples.

Mace is a support weapon.

[starlinvf.1358]

@Obtena.7952 said:Personally, I think staff tries to do too many things and just does them all like crap.

Anet, pick a focus and give it to the Staff.

The Staff does have focus.... the problem is the PvE Meta doesn't value what it can offer. PvP/WvW have largely found ways to bypass it, but its still convenient in WvW Zerg play between group swiftness, zero cost opening might stacks, and the Ward adding hazard against Stability. But beyond the opening push, and possibly retreating, the Staff sees almost no use.

New light aura is pretty strong, good swiftness upkeep, 12 stacks of on-demand might + healing, and a Ward Line that blocks enemy movement.

PVE:

• Doesn't inflict enough conditions for light aura to stand out.
• Swiftness only matters between fights, but never during
• You can get tons of might from multiple sources now, and the healing amount is of marginal value at best
• The AI movement makes Ward feel like a waste to even cast

As you can see, its not a lack of focus thats the problem. Its the fact that we could get most of what it offers through other methods that do not cost a precious weapon slot. Staff is just one of those things that never got power creeped to keep up with Especs. And even then, at launch it was it went mostly ignored, due to a combination of Guardian being able to get huge amount of mileage out of DPS spec and weapon utility, might was the only boon consideration, with Ele being the dominant provider for Dungeon meta, and every class's self-sustain being incredibly high in that era. But the one unique aspect of Staff at the time was born from Guards lacking reliable non-melee AOE; with Staff 1 Fan offering respectable range for area tagging..... thus the Loot stick meme was born. Looking back, I'm pretty sure that was Staff 1's intended purpose. To help a Support guard tag enemies, so they can get credit in a pre-assist tagging system.

[LetoII.3782]

@otto.5684 said:

(using sword as off hand weapon if needed).Guardian has offhand sword?

[Indure.5410]

@Yannir.4132 said:I like the synergy here but there's just 1 problem. Quickness. In a symbol. Symbols are too high output for Quickness.

Example:Standard Symbol 4 second duration, 5 pulses of Boon.What's a good duration for pulsing Quickness? 1 second? Alright.Standard Symbol gives a total of 5 seconds of Quickness baseline.Enter Writ of Persistence, adding 2 more pulses to the skill. That's now 7 seconds of Quickness.What kind of a Guardian uses staff? Support. Well, a support Guardian probably has maxed out Boon duration. (not in PvP though, thinking more in terms of WvW)Which makes that 14 seconds of Quickness.What's a good cooldown considering its potential and likely use? I'd say rather high, +30 second cooldown.Do you really want that skill as your third weapon skill?

It just doesn't work. Generally speaking, this is the reason there's little to none of pulsing Quickness skills in the game. The multiplicative nature of pulsing isn't suited to Quickness. But that's especially true for Guardian symbols, as long as Writ of Persistence exists.

Your completely right. Even if you rethink how the symbol works, symbols will always have to much uptime for the quickness boon. Unfortunately like Arcaedus said that only leaves aegis and stability as the remaining boons that no other symbol gives which most likely can't be balance as well. How about instead of a boon it reapplies blind every second to the symbol area. Gives it better support in PVP/WVW ( and leaves counter play), but gives it very little support in PVE since all bosses are immune.

[otto.5684]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@otto.5684 said:

(using sword as off hand weapon if needed).Guardian has offhand sword?

I meant as off weapon to staff. Off hand will be cool though B)

[Yannir.4132]

@Indure.5410 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:I like the synergy here but there's just 1 problem. Quickness. In a symbol. Symbols are too high output for Quickness.

Example:Standard Symbol 4 second duration, 5 pulses of Boon.What's a good duration for pulsing Quickness? 1 second? Alright.Standard Symbol gives a total of 5 seconds of Quickness baseline.Enter Writ of Persistence, adding 2 more pulses to the skill. That's now 7 seconds of Quickness.What kind of a Guardian uses staff? Support. Well, a support Guardian probably has maxed out Boon duration. (not in PvP though, thinking more in terms of WvW)Which makes that 14 seconds of Quickness.What's a good cooldown considering its potential and likely use? I'd say rather high, +30 second cooldown.Do you really want that skill as your third weapon skill?

It just doesn't work. Generally speaking, this is the reason there's little to none of pulsing Quickness skills in the game. The multiplicative nature of pulsing isn't suited to Quickness. But that's especially true for Guardian symbols, as long as Writ of Persistence exists.

Your completely right. Even if you rethink how the symbol works, symbols will always have to much uptime for the quickness boon. Unfortunately like Arcaedus said that only leaves aegis and stability as the remaining boons that no other symbol gives which most likely can't be balance as well. How about instead of a boon it reapplies blind every second to the symbol area. Gives it better support in PVP/WVW ( and leaves counter play), but gives it very little support in PVE since all bosses are immune.

I've tried to make a Quickness symbol work multiple times when coming up with new Espec ideas or reworks to existing ones but there's always an issue somewhere down the line. The only way to make it work even slightly is to place it as a 5 skill to a two-handed weapon. Even in that case you just get a slightly underwhelming 5 skill as the symbol uptime itself becomes terrible.

[Kam.4092]

@Artyport.2084 said:Firebrand brings a lot of support and its cool in its own ways.And base guardian has tons of ways to not actively help allies.BUTThe Guardian Does feel like it could be achieving these things way better and more actively. So I'm Gonna suggest a few changes that I think it needs.THE STAFF.At its current state its the Guardians weakest asset and it needs to be moved to a full support style weapon.Wave Of Wraith- Just bring the distance back.Orb of light- I like that it grants the the aura at explosion but it should really heal allies it passes through and that shouldn't be reliant on the explosion. make healing number bigger reduce damge.Symbol of swiftness-I'm Cool with that.Empower- Let me MOVE!!!!! or apply aegis to allies and my self on the first pulse. BUT LET ME MOVE!!!Line of warding- SHOULD BE SCRAPPED. Id like to see it changed to Warding Spell- Channel a ward for the duration of the channel you are held in place but knockback foes who try to enter your circle.I'm sure some of that is OP but we can talk about that later.

Spirit weapons SHOULD BE SCRAPPED and changed to work like the ritualist of old.Splinter weapon- charge allies weapon. during this charge allies gain retaliation and might.Restorative weapon- allies next heal for the duration of the charge.Disruptive Weapon- allies next attack interrupt foesFlaming Weapon- allies attack burn for the duration of the charge.

These kinda work like the soulbeast's stances once traited but would only effect allies and would have to be traited to effect you as well

Your suggestions have good ides behind them, but would break some game modes.

[Waisenpai.6028]

I'd say core guardian needs 25% speed boost tratline some where. Fb is a wonderful healbot so we don't need core being that. Core lacks base speed. If you have 25% speed in a core line lets say virtues. I'm sure guard would be much more versatile atleast in wvw. with the freedom with runes.

[LetoII.3782]

@otto.5684 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@otto.5684 said:

(using sword as off hand weapon if needed).Guardian has offhand sword?

I meant as off weapon to staff. Off hand will be cool though B)

I know!Got excited for a second

[Khaliel.3918]

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:Staff one needs to be ranged. We have only one ranged weapon: Scepter. Make staff ranged like it should be.

Make 2 ground targetable and faster moving so it doesn't bug out on terrain and add a blast to it.

Make three castable while moving, or give it more reward for the risk.

Lastly this needs to be said: If this makes FB too powerful, then FB needs to be toned down somewhere. Core guardian needs a boost to healing, not FB.

Staff 3 is castable while moving and carries no risk...Giving core guard a boost in healing - especially if it comes from a boost to staff - won't change a thing about core guard's viability or guards viability as a healer in PvE. Especially not if the boosts are the changes you just suggested.

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

I'll be respectful and have actual discussions when players show they're intelligent enough to have a reasonable discussion. I have 0 intention of spoonfeeding players who show their insight into the game is so low they shouldn't be giving ANY feedback, they should be ASKING for feedback on how the game works.

No. You will be -- as all members are required to be -- respectful by either not engaging in a discussion or expressing your thoughts in a less insulting and demeaning manner. No one is asking you to be arbiter of feedback. No one is suggesting that you set a "bar" for feedback, nor judge someone's intelligence.

No one is requiring you to engage with those with whom you disagree if your are able to do so only in a disagreeable manner.

I'm sorry to add an "ArenaNet flag" to this post for moderation-related comments, but reading through this, it seems worthwhile to make clear the very real and very reasonable expectations about this forums as held by other members and held by us, your hosts.

BTW, I think your feedback is very good, and your thoughtful comments -- those that don't involve direct and indirect insults -- deserve a read. Even the OP feels that way, and they hold a differing opinion. Please consider not just

what

you present but

how

you present it, for maximum value to the forum members and the devs. Thank you.

You're breaking your own forum rules by calling me out specifically and discussing forum rules publically. Something tells me if I reply or defend myself here I'll be infracted, posts removed and banned for exactly that. I'll also be told it's supposed to be making us feel safe and secure. Yet very few players even post here and other media regularly have complaints about how heavy this place is moderated, making them feel the exact opposite.

Why is it that you're allowed to break your own rules but we get banned for so much as refering to them? Do you think everyone feels safe in an environment which is heavily moderated and where policies aren't even up for discussion - as even refering to them results in a blanket ban? I thought that level of communication control / propaganda was reserved for dystopia's.

I wonder if there are any ... subtle signs towards the forums not being as safe, secure and a happy place as you'd like to have us believe. I hear searching "forums" in relation to GW2 doesn't lead to anyone saying they're safe, secure and fun. I hear they lead to many many posts and screenshots of users being banned or infracted for some rather innocent posts.

I'd like to have an actual discussion about balance issues or anything else. But even after your post, there hasn't been a single user suggesting changes that would make staff better in PvE rather than completely bonkers in PvP / WvW it's clear that this is not the place nor the medium. I find it entertaining how being nice to everyone is important, yet virtually every suggestion here refuses to take other playstyles into account. It just has to feel nice for me and screw balance, screw other gamemodes, screw efficiency in my own gamemode and if you disagree with my feelings that's rude and condescending. I made 5 posts trying to explain why their balance changes were fundamentally problematic which were pretty nice. And the reply to all of them can be summarized into "I don't care about balance, other gamemodes or other playstyles. I care about mine where staff is not fun enough and doesn't fullfil my fantasies". Funny, cause the original post clearly speaks about what it does and doesn't from a gameplay / functionality point of view.

As a result it's clear this is no place for people who are interested in feedback. This is an echochamber to "politely" complain about our L2P issues and write them off as balance issues. It's no suprise that the only dev posts out here are the ones policing to see if we're nice enough, not anyone looking for feedback or inspiration. I will safely assume I'll get banned for posting this, which solves both our problems. Your forums are safe and secure to your standards, and I won't be tempted to reply to very polite posts that say "I don't care about other users and if you disagree with my opinions you're mean" type players. Who obviously don't mean anything badly, they just lack the knowledge to be able to speak or suggest while keeping other players and playstyles in mind. But don't you dare suggest that - that's not safe, secure and polite to anyone and everyone's feelings are equally valid.

boi u got roasted just take the L and leave before it's too late :astonished:

[Genesis.8572]

@Genesis.8572 said:I sadly doubt guardian Staff will get a rework until the pre-balance changes of the next expansion. How long did it take for the engineer to get a rework for its healing kit? Way too long. Same with guardian Staff. If it happens, it will be awhile.ArenaNet has unexpectedly served me my words for dinner.

[Yannir.4132]

@Genesis.8572 said:

@Genesis.8572 said:I sadly doubt guardian Staff will get a rework until the pre-balance changes of the next expansion. How long did it take for the engineer to get a rework for its healing kit? Way too long. Same with guardian Staff. If it happens, it will be awhile.ArenaNet has unexpectedly served me my words for dinner.

You want a hat, or a shoe maybe, to chow down with them? :trollface: