Is elementalist under-performing in raids too?

[lLobo.7960]

Its simple.

The way attunements and traits work on the ele makes it a class a class that can specialize to the extreme.Weaver reduces the delay it takes to go from one attunement to the other, while giving it some new skills in the transition (dual skils).So an ele can specialize in dps more than any other class, by having no defense or utility.

This makes the dps ele very dependent on his teamates for heals and support but gives the ele amazing dps.

So they nerfed it.

Now, the ele can do really good dps if it has great support and heals.

In fractals (cms/t4s) for example,With a good group (druid/chrono/guard/warrior) the ele can push over 20-24k dps on most fights. If the chrono fails to give buffs (or if he doesnt pre-buff) or the druid fails to keep the ele healed, this can fall easily to 10k or below. And in that scenario is when all other dpsers will be doing better.

A lot of pugs use ARC and only look at the dps bar. I get blamed to be bad dps in quite a few, and they fail to realize that support is lacking. Quickness uptime, boom cover, heals it all effects the ele way more than other dps builds/classes.

So (TL/DR) a good dps Ele is only underperforming if the groups support is underperforming.

[tekfan.3179]

Going by benchmarks at a passive, stationary golem with a hitbox the size of a worldboss, the ele is still a choice for dps if you need cleave.If you run into a realistic raid-situation, where you got support that may not be able to create the same situation of a stationary target and no need to dodge or sustaining yourself, then soulbeast or deadeye are better choices.

[Quasar.1756]

@MaxwellM.2075 said:You could get a raid spot easier as holosmith for DPS and in WvW mediscrapper is a great secondary healer. Engi is doing better. Scourges are wanted everywhere but PvE. Ele is wanted no where.

Ahhhhh!!!! (Eagerly tries to pull the knife out of my chest)

I don't know pause if Eles will make it pauses again due to pain to the next balance patch :(

Begins to pass out in the Aerodrome due to excessive blood loss

[supreme.3602]

@Shagaliscious.6281 said:A good weaver is far from a joke in WVW. The good weavers in the squads I run with in WVW are always top of the DPS meter, always.

Yes, it's true. We are always/most of the time on top, but us weavers have to work our asses off to get there. Our positioning has to be top notch. Our damage placement has to be precise. If we don't do that, we're screwed. And let's not forget about our rotation. If we make a mistake, we're screwed again. Every little thing that we do is in order to place damage at a specific time and not in an instant like some classes. Commanders can call for wells with ease, but when they want meteors, we have to anticipate the things that would happen and the enemy's movements five seconds beforehand.

All in all, we were fine before, but right now, our class is severely lacking. What should have been done was to split the changes to pve only. Doing that would have allowed the pvp and wvw players to carry on as normal, while the nerf would be attached to the pve side only--a place where none of the former ever visit.

The changes were uncalled for, and it seems the people in charge of it listened to a select group of whiners instead of the people who actively play the class and know its ins and outs.

[Feanor.2358]

@tekfan.3179 said:Going by benchmarks at a passive, stationary golem with a hitbox the size of a worldboss, the ele is still a choice for dps if you need cleave.If you run into a realistic raid-situation, where you got support that may not be able to create the same situation of a stationary target and no need to dodge or sustaining yourself, then soulbeast or deadeye are better choices.

And if you need cleave you'd pick ele over holosmith becaaaaause....? You enjoy putting a lot more effort for the same results?

[Megametzler.5729]

Wait... was this moved to the ele forum to exclude other classes' opinions? :lol:

[Emberheart.8426]

No, it was moved because it does not belong in the general discussion section. While moving the Ele Is Still Trash Btw thread from the PvP sub-forum was baffling, this time it was justified.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

Stop calling for Buffs ... but call the design rework instead. Ele can't be an healthy class right now as it is in this game situation.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

5k more hp. meteor and piledriver cast on the move, problem solved :P

[Feanor.2358]

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:Stop calling for Buffs ... but call the design rework instead. Ele can't be an healthy class right now as it is in this game situation.

Why? I see no problem with ele being high-skill glass cannon like it used to be. It is fitting and rewarding. The problem is literally only the too low current damage output.

[Xevyr.9168]

Uhm..Hey guys.. I just recently started playing this game (like 2 months ago), mainly due to the fact that I'm a streamer and I stumbled upon this game again (I played it for a single afternoon up to level 5 like 2 years ago, and it seemed too... chaotic and non new-player friendly back then, despite having played GW1 before.. so I abandoned it instantly).Now, giving the game a second try, mainly to have something consistent I can always stream, I actually began to like it..As luck would have it, apparently I choose the squishiest / weirdest class to level as my first... I leveled it up completely on stream with dual daggers.. then my viewers told me I should try the staff.. so I did.. and like one month after hitting 80, here I am as a staff weaver... 1 earring away from having full ascended berserker gear and scratching my head as to why can't I get close to those 40-45k 'promised' DPS values on the golem that all the guides have been advertising.. (or even 30 for that matter).The best I could do with all the buffs on the golem is a 22k burst at the beginning and an average of 16k over the course of the 1 million or so HP the weakest one has.Sure, I'm fairly new and the thing has like a 2 page rotation :) but I am quite a fast learner and MMOs are nothing new to me so I was kinda questioning whether I'm missing something... So I started googling and landed here..Based on what I read here, apparently the staff weaver has been nerfed not so long ago and it's not just me being super bad and new at the game? Did I just invest all my time (and money, since I had to throw some at it to catch up with people without having to play 24/7) to a class that is.. uhm.. 'dying out'? :)

Now obviously I am slightly joking here with the dying out part as I sill like my weaver and despite being a glass-cannon (or just a piece of glass with no cannon) I've taken a liking in it. I do share the concerns about open world and the likes thou.. as so far I thought this game is actually meant to be hard... (like some MMO dark souls), but I recently used one of my boosters to make a level 80 revenant just to experiment with and I was literally laughing at the fact that I can simply turn on the spinning hammers and go AFK in the middle of an angry mob, regardless of their numbers, then come back to find all of them dead and my character at full HP, while previously on my weaver I was used to the fact that if I missed a dodge and got hit by a NORMAL (not even veteran) monster.. I got downed :D Fun times!

Anyway, just wanted to ask if the damage values I mentioned there are at least 'decent'?.. and is there a patch notes anyone can link when the actual 'big nerf' happened? Just wanna put it into perspective so that I see how I'm doing regardless of the nerf. Oh, and feel free to add me ingame and give me weaver tips to maximize dps and stuff.

Cheers!

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

@lLobo.7960 said:Its simple.

The way attunements and traits work on the ele makes it a class a class that can specialize to the extreme.Weaver reduces the delay it takes to go from one attunement to the other, while giving it some new skills in the transition (dual skils).So an ele can specialize in dps more than any other class, by having no defense or utility.

This makes the dps ele very dependent on his teamates for heals and support but gives the ele amazing dps.

So they nerfed it.

Now, the ele can do really good dps if it has great support and heals.

In fractals (cms/t4s) for example,With a good group (druid/chrono/guard/warrior) the ele can push over 20-24k dps on most fights. If the chrono fails to give buffs (or if he doesnt pre-buff) or the druid fails to keep the ele healed, this can fall easily to 10k or below. And in that scenario is when all other dpsers will be doing better.

A lot of pugs use ARC and only look at the dps bar. I get blamed to be bad dps in quite a few, and they fail to realize that support is lacking. Quickness uptime, boom cover, heals it all effects the ele way more than other dps builds/classes.

So (TL/DR) a good dps Ele is only underperforming if the groups support is underperforming.

I know when Tempest was meta we hadn't this problem this much.Especially the air variant because the second thing where it depends is on the last arcane trait with 2% dmg increase for each boon.

Problem is air variant is gone and even Weaver has less DPS the Tempest had 3-6 months before PoF startSimple said the dependence problem is more of a weaver problem instead of the Ele and not of old design like someone said because the weaver is relative new.

Also under real conditions those differences getting extremely small

In general I have no idea what they are planning its no just the balancing its also the question how should the content look like ?

PvP: One shot skills and mechanics which rips teams apart is this how it should be ?

WvW : Where is the focus on zerging, roaming, or on siege war with siege gear ? And where is the position of classes with low HP in there like Ele or Thief ?

How open should the meta be ? One patch before when Weaver had still 40k SC said they can run raids with 8 of 9 DPS classes/variants and the other hand druid and chrono are not replaceable

Maybe I should ask them the next Q/A if I have the chance.

[Feanor.2358]

Sorry, the problem seems to be on your side. Ele as a whole was nerfed, but not by this much (which would be completely unplayable). It is entirely possible to get ~30k overall and 40k+ opening burst even now. But it is still mediocre damage output for very complex gameplay. There are other builds which achieve pretty much the same results far easier and more reliable.

[GoodWithGravy.8019]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:5k more hp. meteor and piledriver cast on the move, problem solved :P

Rooting skills are pretty bad across the board for ele, like the ones on sword that come with no decent mobility to compensate.

Also - what is with all the Necro players trying to pretend that

PvPWvWBarrierBoon corruptsCC

Don’t exist....

The game shouldn’t balance golem numbers it should balance risk vs reward. Ele is in a uniquely bad position for that in all game modes, and has been in most since PoF.

[Xevyr.9168]

@"Feanor.2358" said:Sorry, the problem seems to be on your side. Ele as a whole was nerfed, but not by this much (which would be completely unplayable). It is entirely possible to get ~30k overall and 40k+ opening burst even now. But it is still mediocre damage output for very complex gameplay. There are other builds which achieve pretty much the same results far easier and more reliable.

Thank you! That is helpful :) This is the build I've been linked by a guildmate and the one I'm using, is it legit? https://snowcrows.com/raids/elementalist/weaver/staff/

[Feanor.2358]

@Xevyr.9168 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:Sorry, the problem seems to be on your side. Ele as a whole was nerfed, but not by this much (which would be completely unplayable). It is entirely possible to get ~30k overall and 40k+ opening burst even now. But it is still mediocre damage output for very complex gameplay. There are other builds which achieve pretty much the same results far easier and more reliable.

Thank you! That is helpful :) This is the build I've been linked by a guildmate and the one I'm using, is it legit?

https://snowcrows.com/raids/elementalist/weaver/staff/

Yup. I recommend checking out

video. It is a good starting point in understanding the rotation, even though it is outdated. The basics are very much the same, if anything the opener is easier now.

[Xevyr.9168]

Yup. I recommend checking out

video. It is a good starting point in understanding the rotation, even though it is outdated. The basics are very much the same, if anything the opener is easier now.

Just for clarification btw, I was only using boons and none of the class-specific buffs like spotter.. etc.. and I was using the full rotation listed on the snowcrows website. The only major difference I see here watching that video is that he uses the glyph of storms always in air, instead of using it in fir and only using it in air near the end as that website suggests and the fact that he picks up the second instance of his conjured weapons, which I never did before, but that shouldn't factor into the initial burst.

[Feanor.2358]

You should use the standard set of boons and profession-specific enhancements listed on SC website. Using Fire glyph is correct now, I would guess it's mostly a matter of execution and timings.

[Xevyr.9168]

@Feanor.2358 said:You should use the standard set of boons and profession-specific enhancements listed on SC website. Using Fire glyph is correct now, I would guess it's mostly a matter of execution and timings.

Alright.. did that.. still nothing major :)) 23k burst, 18k avg over the 1 million hp.. Ah well, sorry for temporarily hijacking the thread...Have a nice day :P

Edit: Apparently people also debuff the golem when measuring these values.. so with vulnerability added to the golem I can do 30k burst and 20k avg... getting closer I guess.. I mean it didn't make sense that I'm missing ~20k dps.. it's not like I'm falling asleep at the keyboard...

[Theros.1390]

@RazielSpecter.6295 said:Is Ele worst than Necro?

In PvE Weav deals more damages with a much harder rotation.

In PvP or WvW, you just wouldn't ask that question ;)

[Jski.6180]

And its in the ele forms i guess we should be happy it lasted in the light for a full 2 days? now its in the dark of the ele forms.

If you want to keep it in the gen. forms you need to use bigger ideals like the elite spec vs core classes (as ele core is more of the problem then weaver or even tempest).

[Kalendraf.9521]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Kalendraf.9521 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Kalendraf.9521 said:Ele's are doing fine. Necros are the ones with a

bone to pick

.

Eeeeeeeeeyyyyy

But in all seriousness, ele’s seem fine.I still see them pop in raids in big numbers

Check

Raidar

. Ele's damage is unimpressive and its popularity is dwindling as a result. DE has 67% higher representation and Holosmith has 17% higher. Holosmith stats outline the issue perfectly - while its 99th percentile is only 8% higher than Weaver's, its 50th percentile is over 30% higher. Both are far more reliable, and, as a result, more popular. The usual mantra of "cleave" doesn't apply either - Holosmith's

cleave

is only marginally worse (10.8k added damage vs 12.1k on Weaver, both at 50th percentile) with higher boss dps.

Based on the values on that site, it appears that Weaver is currently near the middle of the pack. (Power - 4 classes with higher DPS, Condi - 6 classes with higher DPS) Ideally, the stronger classes will get rebalanced downward, and those at the bottom should need help to get rebalanced upward. Meanwhile, the DPS on Weaver looks really good compared to the necro options (comparison of their 50th percent numbers):Power - Weaver: 13358Power - Reaper: 10954Weaver is 22% higher DPS

Condi - Weaver: 14404Condi - Scourge: 12551Weaver is 15% higher DPS

Based on that site, every class has higher DPS Condi options than Necro. Every class except warrior has stronger DPS Power options than Necro, but Warriors have various group buffs so even there they're still a better option. Also, the snowcrows benchmarks (

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

) show necro is in even worse shape trailing every single class in both power and condi options. Necro needs a lot of help just to get it up to the middle of the pack. By comparison, ele seems to be in a pretty good spot.

At the same time Scourge is meta in PVP, meta in WVW, you can defeat the hardest PVE boss while in downed state, finish any story instances without making a single change to your "snowcrows" meta build. All while Elementalists need to change items, traits and/or skills just to survive and at the same time tank their DPS way below Necro levels. Also at the same time they are trash in PVP and trash in WVW, outside of Meteor Staff spammers to clear some siege I guess.

Necro is better than Elementalist in the vast majority of the game's content, and the difference is so huge it's similar to pre-nerf Staff Weaver vs after-nerf Scourge on a huge target.

Title of thread specifically mentions raids. The Raidar and Snowcrows benchmarks are for raids. If you want to discuss game modes that aren't pertinent to the thread's topic, perhaps consider creating a different thread.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Kalendraf.9521" said:Title of thread specifically mentions raids. The Raidar and Snowcrows benchmarks are for raids. If you want to discuss game modes that aren't pertinent to the thread's topic, perhaps consider creating a different thread.

Title of the thread contains the word "too" in it if you haven't noticed.Plus the actual content of the first post is:

Elementalist is nothing more of a joke in WvW and sPvP and I've been told it's pretty bad in PvE also. Is this true?I think it's self explanatory.

[Girlyvader.9078]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Poelala.2830 said:Elementalist is nothing more of a joke in WvW and sPvP and I've been told it's pretty bad in PvE also. Is this true?

Elementalist is a joke in PVE story missions too. It's probably the worst profession to do any of the newer story instances and the recent damage nerfs made it even worse. While other professions can follow the full DPS potential when soloing in story instances, Elementalists have to adapt and use different tactics which makes their hits tickle. Also, in story instances most bosses are rather mobile too which makes the Elementalist even worse.

In general, if you like Elementalist you can follow big blobs in open world PVE and pretend you are doing better than others (you are not btw) or play the damage bot on large hitbox Raid bosses while your pet healers are keeping you alive. For anything else, play literally any other profession, it does a far better job than Elementalist.

And since all the balance in the game happens by how much damage someone deals on stationary golems, you can expect this to get even worse until you will no longer be able to even finish story instances on Elementalist.

I just finished the personal story on my lvl 80 guardian. I spent the last 2 and a half years trying, off and on, to finish the personal story on my ele, which has been lvl 80 for most of that. I did the entire story, playing casually, in about 2 weeks after I finished leveling and gearing the guardian [didn't touch story til 80 because all I had to reference how much of a pain it would be was ele gameplay]. WTB reason for people to join personal story please, it would make the story on ele so much less painful if other wanted to join for rewards.

[Ceistebi.4023]

The day my support ele in wvw becomes functionally worthless is the day I quit gw2.