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Is it still core S/D and D/P DD?


Mhina.1827
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I stepped away from my thief for a while because it feels difficult to perform against the cluster of burst and AoE that is the present state of PvP (as I see it). However, I always feel a bitdirty when I go too long without playing thief. Are Core S/D and D/P DD still the way to go for being the most efficient team player?

Thanks

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Whew, I just played about 2-3 games as thief after playing ranger since the beginning of this season and MAN it feels tough with the classic D/P DD build. Props to you guys if you're making it work in the midst of all the burst and passive sustain most of all these classes have.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:S/D will remain dominant, core or not, over D/P, so long as the boon-block+PBAoE burst meta we're in continues, as it counters boons and blocks and is one of the safer kits into the mess of AoE nuking we're in now.

I would agree with the most par but this dynamic goes on. In relative terms the Boon removal abilities of s/d in the way of effectiveness is dropping. Not only are other specs able to do it better (Necro/spellbreaker) but the boon re-application rate goes UP resulting in a boon theft being less effective. At the same time all of that PBaoe and things like Condition mesmer makes Condition removal a higher priority. Added to that if in s/d over d/p removal of stability is of less importance as you are not relying a lot on interrupts.

What I am finding as a result of this is that BT as example is losing out to trickster in my Core builds and or I am finding in relative terms the trickery trait line not as imperative.

Obviously this dynamic changes at different scales. I speak to WvW mostly and if in a 1v1 the weighting of various traits and trait lines changes than if in group fights.

The growth in AOE nuking is perhaps the single largest reason s/d remains relevant. As this stuff does not need a target and tends to apply damage and or conditions , getting OUT of a fight and cleansing some of those conditions becomes more important.

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@babazhook.6805 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:S/D will remain dominant, core or not, over D/P, so long as the boon-block+PBAoE burst meta we're in continues, as it counters boons and blocks and is one of the safer kits into the mess of AoE nuking we're in now.

I would agree with the most par but this dynamic goes on. In relative terms the Boon removal abilities of s/d in the way of effectiveness is dropping. Not only are other specs able to do it better (Necro/spellbreaker) but the boon re-application rate goes UP resulting in a boon theft being less effective. At the same time all of that PBaoe and things like Condition mesmer makes Condition removal a higher priority. Added to that if in s/d over d/p removal of stability is of less importance as you are not relying a lot on interrupts.

What I am finding as a result of this is that BT as example is losing out to trickster in my Core builds and or I am finding in relative terms the trickery trait line not as imperative.

Obviously this dynamic changes at different scales. I speak to WvW mostly and if in a 1v1 the weighting of various traits and trait lines changes than if in group fights.

The growth in AOE nuking is perhaps the single largest reason s/d remains relevant. As this stuff does not need a target and tends to apply damage and or conditions , getting OUT of a fight and cleansing some of those conditions becomes more important.

Bountiful Theft is more about being able to interrupt enemy heals, stomps and rezzes rather than simple reduction of enemy Stability up time, though.To me that's still way more valuable than lower CDs and 1 condi removal, but regarding the reason for it... yeah.

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@Alatar.7364 said:

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:S/D will remain dominant, core or not, over D/P, so long as the boon-block+PBAoE burst meta we're in continues, as it counters boons and blocks and is one of the safer kits into the mess of AoE nuking we're in now.

I would agree with the most par but this dynamic goes on. In relative terms the Boon removal abilities of s/d in the way of effectiveness is dropping. Not only are other specs able to do it better (Necro/spellbreaker) but the boon re-application rate goes UP resulting in a boon theft being less effective. At the same time all of that PBaoe and things like Condition mesmer makes Condition removal a higher priority. Added to that if in s/d over d/p removal of stability is of less importance as you are not relying a lot on interrupts.

What I am finding as a result of this is that BT as example is losing out to trickster in my Core builds and or I am finding in relative terms the trickery trait line not as imperative.

Obviously this dynamic changes at different scales. I speak to WvW mostly and if in a 1v1 the weighting of various traits and trait lines changes than if in group fights.

The growth in AOE nuking is perhaps the single largest reason s/d remains relevant. As this stuff does not need a target and tends to apply damage and or conditions , getting OUT of a fight and cleansing some of those conditions becomes more important.

Bountiful Theft is more about being able to interrupt enemy heals, stomps and rezzes rather than simple reduction of enemy Stability up time, though.To me that's still way more valuable than lower CDs and 1 condi removal, but regarding the reason for it... yeah.

The opportunites to use BT in conjunction with SOH to provide an interrupt are just too limited in the set IMO (It is SOF after all that gives that Interrupt, it requiring no stability in order to work thus the BT). Unlike d/p where you can use headshot for the same when steal on Cooldown, all you have for interrupts on the s/d set is that steal. Thus if you happen to use steal and a firend downed immediately after, you are out of luck. Added to this there the issue of all that Pbaoe. There just too many times you do NOT want to Port to en enemy even if it garners an interrupt because all those red circles surround him. There no Port away as there is with #2 on the s/d set after a steal so as far as I am concerned you might as well stick to d/p if you are looking for interrupts.

I would also add that traiting up SA can be more effective at securing a stomp or preventing one then using that singular interrupt, With hidden thief Port to Target as the enemy tries to rez his downed friend and do your Stomp. With Hidden thief port to ally who is downed and being stomped and do a Merciful ambush. In both instances you are saving cycles .

As to Trickster it far more then just one added Condition cleanse. it an added cleanse to ALL of your traited tricks PLUS a lower ICD on the same. On withdraw alone this means more heals in every 30 second time slice and more cleanses. Condi mesmer is one of the builds I find the hardest to deal with and it is TRickster that helps the most here and not that SOH interrupt (I am getting all BOONS on a steal in any case so why do I need 3 more?)

Now there certainly opponents where the SOH BT combo beneficial over TR but I find those opponents generally an "easier" fight in any case.

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@DragonSlayer.1087 said:I saw a video of S/D thief with Daggerstorm. Now that is has evade, it's somewhat valuable in aiding team fights. CD is long again tho...

Yes it works very well and especially with some combo of Improv/Trickster and Payback traited. For what it does 90 seconds rather long but 72 much better. s/d with Daggerstorm and Instant reflexes gives a lot more in the way of outs when s/d in trouble.

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@Alatar.7364 said:Bountiful Theft is more about being able to interrupt enemy heals, stomps and rezzes rather than simple reduction of enemy Stability up time, though.To me that's still way more valuable than lower CDs and 1 condi removal, but regarding the reason for it... yeah.

I use it to land full bursts on enemies that fart out protection like they ate it from a can of baked beans.

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They're still viable, but for some reason Arenanet has decided that nerfing them and buffing cheesy one-shot deadeye builds was a good idea, and now the way you're expected to play if you just want to not be at disadvantage is playing stealth spamming builds that have diluted the class to a one-shot monkey. I'm really concerned right now about the future of thief, because I'm pretty sure that Anet is going to fuck up more stuff and make every single mechanic as clunky as possible instead of changing the stuff that really needs to be changed.

I'm really mad at Arenanet's balance team right now.

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@lkilian.1854 said:They're still viable, but for some reason Arenanet has decided that nerfing them and buffing cheesy one-shot deadeye builds was a good idea, and now the way you're expected to play if you just want to not be at disadvantage is playing stealth spamming builds that have diluted the class to a one-shot monkey. I'm really concerned right now about the future of thief, because I'm pretty sure that Anet is going to kitten up more stuff and make every single mechanic as clunky as possible instead of changing the stuff that really needs to be changed.

I'm really mad at Arenanet's balance team right now.

Thieves wanted de to be viable and have a different playstyle and they got it. Still not too good for ats tho but still hillarious in ranked

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@Coolguy.8702 said:

@lkilian.1854 said:They're still viable, but for some reason Arenanet has decided that nerfing them and buffing cheesy one-shot deadeye builds was a good idea, and now the way you're expected to play if you just want to not be at disadvantage is playing stealth spamming builds that have diluted the class to a one-shot monkey. I'm really concerned right now about the future of thief, because I'm pretty sure that Anet is going to kitten up more stuff and make every single mechanic as clunky as possible instead of changing the stuff that really needs to be changed.

I'm really mad at Arenanet's balance team right now.

Thieves wanted de to be viable and have a different playstyle and they got it. Still not too good for ats tho but still hillarious in ranked

One thing i dont' get is how come there aren't better stuff for stealth in the stealth tree? I think stealth could use rework in giving improved stuff like more stuff of:If you get a hit or Stealth duration for one ability to last a bit longer(4-6 seconds)

Maybe its me but i am not liking the way it works

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To be honest I think I'm done. Thank you guys for all of your answers. I'm personally just not a good enough thief player to perform/carry in this meta, and I've been playing ranger instead but it's still not the same. Doesn't feel fun. It seems whoever has the most invulns and burst potential just wins now. I could just sound like a bitter, skill less player, and maybe I am. But I just don't enjoy it anymore. Good luck to you guys in your endeavors, and I hope you see thief returned to its former glory without feeling like a spam bot. Have fun

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@Mhina.1827 said:To be honest I think I'm done. Thank you guys for all of your answers. I'm personally just not a good enough thief player to perform/carry in this meta, and I've been playing ranger instead but it's still not the same. Doesn't feel fun. It seems whoever has the most invulns and burst potential just wins now. I could just sound like a bitter, skill less player, and maybe I am. But I just don't enjoy it anymore. Good luck to you guys in your endeavors, and I hope you see thief returned to its former glory without feeling like a spam bot. Have fun

Most (I think everyone except Chaithh at this point?) of the ex-pro scene/high-ranked players in previous years have left the game for the same reasons and felt the same way even before PoF.

Where you stand on the bracket is largely irrelevant at this point - the gameplay experience in the PvP modes is horrendous and ANet simply does not care about what's fun/fair to play against, and would rather run with peoples' power-fantasies and design things for PvE powercreep. The game is just simply not the same we had at/around launch.

It got dramatically worse in PoF and a lot of people share the sentiment. I only really play at this point when I'm bored and am unable to do other things. I'd rather sleep than play GW2 for longer than a few minutes.

It's a shame there's nothing remotely decent out there that reflects GW2's combat systems, but doing virtually anything else simply is or feels more rewarding.

@Axl.8924 said:

@lkilian.1854 said:They're still viable, but for some reason Arenanet has decided that nerfing them and buffing cheesy one-shot deadeye builds was a good idea, and now the way you're expected to play if you just want to not be at disadvantage is playing stealth spamming builds that have diluted the class to a one-shot monkey. I'm really concerned right now about the future of thief, because I'm pretty sure that Anet is going to kitten up more stuff and make every single mechanic as clunky as possible instead of changing the stuff that really needs to be changed.

I'm really mad at Arenanet's balance team right now.

Thieves wanted de to be viable and have a different playstyle and they got it. Still not too good for ats tho but still hillarious in ranked

One thing i dont' get is how come there aren't better stuff for stealth in the stealth tree? I think stealth could use rework in giving improved stuff like more stuff of:If you get a hit or Stealth duration for one ability to last a bit longer(4-6 seconds)

Maybe its me but i am not liking the way it works

Currently the only real reason Deadeye is broken is because SA gives too much for camping stealth.

Camping stealth is just bad for sPvP and only sPvP because you can't capture points while stealthed. It's otherwise arguably the strongest defensive trait line in the game, maybe except Defense on Warrior.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Axl.8924 said:So i presume that the perma stealth trap thief is gone for good?

I just saw a youtube video where a guy was perma stealthed dropping traps in WVW and it was insane.he killed so many folks.

Yeah it's been gone for over a year now. Someone took the build and solo'd a raid and it was patched within a week.

Anet seeing stupid thing happening in PvP/WvW: wait for the next balance patch

Anet seeing stupid thing boosting raid completion: patch immediately

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Mhina.1827 said:To be honest I think I'm done. Thank you guys for all of your answers. I'm personally just not a good enough thief player to perform/carry in this meta, and I've been playing ranger instead but it's still not the same. Doesn't feel fun. It seems whoever has the most invulns and burst potential just wins now. I could just sound like a bitter, skill less player, and maybe I am. But I just don't enjoy it anymore. Good luck to you guys in your endeavors, and I hope you see thief returned to its former glory without feeling like a spam bot. Have fun

Most (I think everyone except Chaithh at this point?) of the ex-pro scene/high-ranked players in previous years have left the game for the same reasons and felt the same way even before PoF.

Where you stand on the bracket is largely irrelevant at this point - the gameplay experience in the PvP modes is horrendous and ANet simply does not care about what's fun/fair to play against, and would rather run with peoples' power-fantasies and design things for PvE powercreep. The game is just simply not the same we had at/around launch.

It got dramatically worse in PoF and a lot of people share the sentiment. I only really play at this point when I'm bored and am unable to do other things. I'd rather sleep than play GW2 for longer than a few minutes.

It's a shame there's nothing remotely decent out there that reflects GW2's combat systems, but doing virtually anything else simply is or feels more rewarding.

@Axl.8924 said:

@lkilian.1854 said:They're still viable, but for some reason Arenanet has decided that nerfing them and buffing cheesy one-shot deadeye builds was a good idea, and now the way you're expected to play if you just want to not be at disadvantage is playing stealth spamming builds that have diluted the class to a one-shot monkey. I'm really concerned right now about the future of thief, because I'm pretty sure that Anet is going to kitten up more stuff and make every single mechanic as clunky as possible instead of changing the stuff that really needs to be changed.

I'm really mad at Arenanet's balance team right now.

Thieves wanted de to be viable and have a different playstyle and they got it. Still not too good for ats tho but still hillarious in ranked

One thing i dont' get is how come there aren't better stuff for stealth in the stealth tree? I think stealth could use rework in giving improved stuff like more stuff of:If you get a hit or Stealth duration for one ability to last a bit longer(4-6 seconds)

Maybe its me but i am not liking the way it works

Currently the only real reason Deadeye is broken is because SA gives too much for camping stealth.

Camping stealth is just bad for sPvP and only sPvP because you can't capture points while stealthed. It's otherwise arguably the strongest defensive trait line in the game, maybe except Defense on Warrior.

I could be ok with SA it's just stealth on dodge is a mechanic that should not exist just as bound -> stealth, no counterplays whatsoever which dumbs the game down

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@bluri.2653 said:

@Mhina.1827 said:To be honest I think I'm done. Thank you guys for all of your answers. I'm personally just not a good enough thief player to perform/carry in this meta, and I've been playing ranger instead but it's still not the same. Doesn't feel fun. It seems whoever has the most invulns and burst potential just wins now. I could just sound like a bitter, skill less player, and maybe I am. But I just don't enjoy it anymore. Good luck to you guys in your endeavors, and I hope you see thief returned to its former glory without feeling like a spam bot. Have fun

Most (I think everyone except Chaithh at this point?) of the ex-pro scene/high-ranked players in previous years have left the game for the same reasons and felt the same way even before PoF.

Where you stand on the bracket is largely irrelevant at this point - the gameplay experience in the PvP modes is horrendous and ANet simply does not care about what's fun/fair to play against, and would rather run with peoples' power-fantasies and design things for PvE powercreep. The game is just simply not the same we had at/around launch.

It got dramatically worse in PoF and a lot of people share the sentiment. I only really play at this point when I'm bored and am unable to do other things. I'd rather sleep than play GW2 for longer than a few minutes.

It's a shame there's nothing remotely decent out there that reflects GW2's combat systems, but doing virtually anything else simply is or feels more rewarding.

@Axl.8924 said:

@"lkilian.1854" said:They're still viable, but for some reason Arenanet has decided that nerfing them and buffing cheesy one-shot deadeye builds was a good idea, and now the way you're expected to play if you just want to not be at disadvantage is playing stealth spamming builds that have diluted the class to a one-shot monkey. I'm really concerned right now about the future of thief, because I'm pretty sure that Anet is going to kitten up more stuff and make every single mechanic as clunky as possible instead of changing the stuff that really needs to be changed.

I'm really mad at Arenanet's balance team right now.

Thieves wanted de to be viable and have a different playstyle and they got it. Still not too good for ats tho but still hillarious in ranked

One thing i dont' get is how come there aren't better stuff for stealth in the stealth tree? I think stealth could use rework in giving improved stuff like more stuff of:If you get a hit or Stealth duration for one ability to last a bit longer(4-6 seconds)

Maybe its me but i am not liking the way it works

Currently the only real reason Deadeye is broken is because SA gives too much for camping stealth.

Camping stealth is just bad for sPvP and only sPvP because you can't capture points while stealthed. It's otherwise arguably the strongest defensive trait line in the game, maybe except Defense on Warrior.

I could be ok with SA it's just stealth on dodge is a mechanic that should not exist just as bound -> stealth, no counterplays whatsoever which dumbs the game down

Agreed, and BP + Bound is a separate issue due to the endurance refunding available on Daredevil (though it was more oppressive historically than currently as they nerfed CV/SoA/etc.).

Heavily depends on gameplay context, too; SA is much less a problem in sPvP because it hurts point capture potential as I mentioned above, while it basically makes a good DE unkillable in WvW while also buffing the stealth uptime on Silent Scope.

Really, the whole "dumbing down" aspect can be applied almost everywhere, though, and is generally something I think is implicit. A lot of the core game stuff is being made just as frustrating/overpowered as the expansion content.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Mhina.1827 said:To be honest I think I'm done. Thank you guys for all of your answers. I'm personally just not a good enough thief player to perform/carry in this meta, and I've been playing ranger instead but it's still not the same. Doesn't feel fun. It seems whoever has the most invulns and burst potential just wins now. I could just sound like a bitter, skill less player, and maybe I am. But I just don't enjoy it anymore. Good luck to you guys in your endeavors, and I hope you see thief returned to its former glory without feeling like a spam bot. Have fun

Most (I think everyone except Chaithh at this point?) of the ex-pro scene/high-ranked players in previous years have left the game for the same reasons and felt the same way even before PoF.

Where you stand on the bracket is largely irrelevant at this point - the gameplay experience in the PvP modes is horrendous and ANet simply does not care about what's fun/fair to play against, and would rather run with peoples' power-fantasies and design things for PvE powercreep. The game is just simply not the same we had at/around launch.

It got dramatically worse in PoF and a lot of people share the sentiment. I only really play at this point when I'm bored and am unable to do other things. I'd rather sleep than play GW2 for longer than a few minutes.

It's a shame there's nothing remotely decent out there that reflects GW2's combat systems, but doing virtually anything else simply is or feels more rewarding.

@Axl.8924 said:

@"lkilian.1854" said:They're still viable, but for some reason Arenanet has decided that nerfing them and buffing cheesy one-shot deadeye builds was a good idea, and now the way you're expected to play if you just want to not be at disadvantage is playing stealth spamming builds that have diluted the class to a one-shot monkey. I'm really concerned right now about the future of thief, because I'm pretty sure that Anet is going to kitten up more stuff and make every single mechanic as clunky as possible instead of changing the stuff that really needs to be changed.

I'm really mad at Arenanet's balance team right now.

Thieves wanted de to be viable and have a different playstyle and they got it. Still not too good for ats tho but still hillarious in ranked

One thing i dont' get is how come there aren't better stuff for stealth in the stealth tree? I think stealth could use rework in giving improved stuff like more stuff of:If you get a hit or Stealth duration for one ability to last a bit longer(4-6 seconds)

Maybe its me but i am not liking the way it works

Currently the only real reason Deadeye is broken is because SA gives too much for camping stealth.

Camping stealth is just bad for sPvP and only sPvP because you can't capture points while stealthed. It's otherwise arguably the strongest defensive trait line in the game, maybe except Defense on Warrior.

I could be ok with SA it's just stealth on dodge is a mechanic that should not exist just as bound -> stealth, no counterplays whatsoever which dumbs the game down

Agreed, and BP + Bound is a separate issue due to the endurance refunding available on Daredevil (though it was more oppressive historically than currently as they nerfed CV/SoA/etc.).

Heavily depends on gameplay context, too; SA is much less a problem in sPvP because it hurts point capture potential as I mentioned above, while it basically makes a good DE unkillable in WvW while also buffing the stealth uptime on Silent Scope.

Really, the whole "dumbing down" aspect can be applied almost everywhere, though, and is generally something I think is implicit. A lot of the core game stuff is being made just as frustrating/overpowered as the expansion content.

Yeah i do agree as well that recent core buffs are lazy balancing for example swindlers equillibrium

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@bluri.2653 said:

@Mhina.1827 said:To be honest I think I'm done. Thank you guys for all of your answers. I'm personally just not a good enough thief player to perform/carry in this meta, and I've been playing ranger instead but it's still not the same. Doesn't feel fun. It seems whoever has the most invulns and burst potential just wins now. I could just sound like a bitter, skill less player, and maybe I am. But I just don't enjoy it anymore. Good luck to you guys in your endeavors, and I hope you see thief returned to its former glory without feeling like a spam bot. Have fun

Most (I think everyone except Chaithh at this point?) of the ex-pro scene/high-ranked players in previous years have left the game for the same reasons and felt the same way even before PoF.

Where you stand on the bracket is largely irrelevant at this point - the gameplay experience in the PvP modes is horrendous and ANet simply does not care about what's fun/fair to play against, and would rather run with peoples' power-fantasies and design things for PvE powercreep. The game is just simply not the same we had at/around launch.

It got dramatically worse in PoF and a lot of people share the sentiment. I only really play at this point when I'm bored and am unable to do other things. I'd rather sleep than play GW2 for longer than a few minutes.

It's a shame there's nothing remotely decent out there that reflects GW2's combat systems, but doing virtually anything else simply is or feels more rewarding.

@Axl.8924 said:

@"lkilian.1854" said:They're still viable, but for some reason Arenanet has decided that nerfing them and buffing cheesy one-shot deadeye builds was a good idea, and now the way you're expected to play if you just want to not be at disadvantage is playing stealth spamming builds that have diluted the class to a one-shot monkey. I'm really concerned right now about the future of thief, because I'm pretty sure that Anet is going to kitten up more stuff and make every single mechanic as clunky as possible instead of changing the stuff that really needs to be changed.

I'm really mad at Arenanet's balance team right now.

Thieves wanted de to be viable and have a different playstyle and they got it. Still not too good for ats tho but still hillarious in ranked

One thing i dont' get is how come there aren't better stuff for stealth in the stealth tree? I think stealth could use rework in giving improved stuff like more stuff of:If you get a hit or Stealth duration for one ability to last a bit longer(4-6 seconds)

Maybe its me but i am not liking the way it works

Currently the only real reason Deadeye is broken is because SA gives too much for camping stealth.

Camping stealth is just bad for sPvP and only sPvP because you can't capture points while stealthed. It's otherwise arguably the strongest defensive trait line in the game, maybe except Defense on Warrior.

I could be ok with SA it's just stealth on dodge is a mechanic that should not exist just as bound -> stealth, no counterplays whatsoever which dumbs the game down

Agreed, and BP + Bound is a separate issue due to the endurance refunding available on Daredevil (though it was more oppressive historically than currently as they nerfed CV/SoA/etc.).

Heavily depends on gameplay context, too; SA is much less a problem in sPvP because it hurts point capture potential as I mentioned above, while it basically makes a good DE unkillable in WvW while also buffing the stealth uptime on Silent Scope.

Really, the whole "dumbing down" aspect can be applied almost everywhere, though, and is generally something I think is implicit. A lot of the core game stuff is being made just as frustrating/overpowered as the expansion content.

Yeah i do agree as well that recent core buffs are lazy balancing for example swindlers equillibrium

Come back to us god

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