Does anyone else hate relying on healers/support?

[STIHL.2489]

And yes.. I hold people who need to play role-based games in contempt, because I view it as the lowest form of gaming, akin to being nothing more then some NPC in a single player game group make up.. We have Black Mage, White Mage, Red Warrior, Yellow Monk, and Green Ranger.. go mighty myopic task force.

Yes it was a regression from this games original design, back to a stone age of game design to put in roles into this game.

[Cyndercat.7615]

@STIHL.2489 said:

I see the problem now, you never learned how to play as a team, so much so, when you were not given a static role or task to do, you, and yours, could not figure out how to work as a together with what you had.

When I ended up with people like yourself for example, that only knew how to work together by hitting F is someone was downed

But thanks.. I see through your own admittance that the original grouping system and team work design was in fact too complex for a player like yourself, and that you needed to regress back to some stone age system or roles to be able to do anything for your team mates.

Last time I will bother replying. You make the assumption multiple times that I dont understand how supportive buffs or combo fields work. I do and did back in 2012 too.

You assume the system was too complex, implying im too stupid to understand it. Thats incredibly rude, since you know nothing about me or how I play.

I will reiterate 1 more time. I understand the combat system gw2 had at launch. My point is, using all these systems, like buffing stability on kholer and using light fields to cleans conditions were pointless and useless for even the average pug, considering the boss could just be dpsed down, before he even began casting the pull.

This was true for 90% of group content. Any oher bosses that took longer could just be dodged. No reason at all to sacrifice dps for support when everyone except totally new players could dodge and complete dungeons without it. And this pointlessness of skills was a direct result of anets design policy on group content, which was a failure. I explained this above.

If anet had decided to require certain classes in content. Like stability was NEEDED to beat kholer or the group instawiped, I would probably agree with you that there was team play at gw2's lauch. But that didnt happen.

[Morte de Angelis.7986]

Kholer example was a bad one of teamplay. I did AC many times and not once was "Stand your Ground" required or even used. You can dodge the attack, meaning that you don't get pulled nor require the Condi cleanse and you don't even need the DPS to kill him before that to boot.

My first run of AC was mostly one or two experienced people carrying 3 lowbie asses through AC. They had never met before but knew how / what to dodge. They were 100% reliant on only themselves. They used no combo fields in the entire fight with Ghost Easter and only used teamwork when it was required (Ghost Traps). Being 100% reliant on only yourself in my mind isn't teamwork. You don't require anything from the team and I would suspect that given enough time those two players could of cleared the run solo. If I can clear something myself but a team just speed it up then it isn't teamwork. There is no I in Team.

Whether forced to or not, a team is a team. Its not "your" team and just a temporary team but is it a team. You also don't need healers in raids. You mention a few times about picking up a bunch a friends playing whatever build they want and just running into a Dungeon and completing it. Well why don't you do that with raids? I don't really see what you are trying to do with this post other then complain about raids, which you are not forced to do, and say that the game no longer has teamwork. Druids aren't just healers, they also buff. A chrono isn't just a tank, they also buff. The off-Chrono isn't even a tank and is just a buffer. A Warrior is a DPS that also buffs. VG has been done with two people. The "Tank" Chrono and a Druid. The Druid could be replaced with pretty much any other healer. The "Tank" Chrono could be replaced with any other classes with tanky gear as they as they could survive. The other 8 people could die at the first hit and you could still complete the encouter.

I really do not understand people that will go out of their way to complain about a game mode that on the whole does not affect them. Open World can be done with pretty much any build under the sun that the changes done to classes because of raids is negligible(?). The Dev team responsible for raids / fractals is completely different to the Dev team responsible for Open World and Living Story. So raids does not affect Dev time for those people who only play Open World. I personally dislike Open World where most of it comes down to just farming for things and a lot of people auto attack afking just so they can get carried by other people so they can get loot off other people's work but you don't find me making a thread every week about how pointless I find Open World. So I really don't get the people that do the same for raids.

But I guess thats where my understanding ends. I enjoy raids because they offer a challenge that not other part of the game has I guess some people just don't like that and that's okay. Different people like different things. There's no need to be rude or condescending to either side however and I apologise in advance if I come across as rude or condescending in this post.

[Grogba.6204]

Why even dodge/stability against kholer when reflects broke the majority of dungeon fights.

Lupicus. Feedback/Wall of Reflection./Thread:wink:

[STIHL.2489]

@Grogba.6204 said:Why even dodge/stability against kholer when reflects broke the majority of dungeon fights.

Lupicus. Feedback/Wall of Reflection./Thread:wink:

LOL, wish I had thought of that.. we would stack speed buffs on a thief, they would kite him around and we would beat him up.. again.. while using speed buffs like save yourself.

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

I see the problem now, you never learned how to play as a team, so much so, when you were not given a static role or task to do, you, and yours, could not figure out how to work as a together with what you had.

When I ended up with people like yourself for example, that only knew how to work together by hitting F is someone was downed

But thanks.. I see through your own admittance that the original grouping system and team work design was in fact too complex for a player like yourself, and that you needed to regress back to some stone age system or roles to be able to do anything for your team mates.

Last time I will bother replying. You make the assumption multiple times that I dont understand how supportive buffs or combo fields work. I do and did back in 2012 too.

You assume the system was too complex, implying im too stupid to understand it. Thats incredibly rude, since you know nothing about me or how I play.

I will reiterate 1 more time. I understand the combat system gw2 had at launch. My point is, using all these systems, like buffing stability on kholer and using light fields to cleans conditions were pointless and useless for even the average pug, considering the boss could just be dpsed down, before he even began casting the pull.

This was true for 90% of group content. Any oher bosses that took longer could just be dodged. No reason at all to sacrifice dps for support when everyone except totally new players could dodge and complete dungeons without it. And this pointlessness of skills was a direct result of anets design policy on group content, which was a failure. I explained this above.

If anet had decided to require certain classes in content. Like stability was NEEDED to beat kholer or the group instawiped, I would probably agree with you that there was team play at gw2's lauch. But that didnt happen.

Needing Stability would be Lame. Having it as an Option is what makes it work. You could dodge, you could use stability, you could use fields/finishers, reflects, there was a LOT of options open and all of them worked.... the fact that people didn't didn't use them... meant they didn't know how to play.

But I get it.. players could not figure out how to work as a team using the tools they were given, so they took the most simpleton path they could think of, which was trying to win by using crude mindless brute force via DPS, and with that said.. Raids haven't been an improvement on that method either, as VG is really just a timed DPS challenge.. the Irony.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Grogba.6204 said:Why even dodge/stability against kholer when reflects broke the majority of dungeon fights.

Lupicus. Feedback/Wall of Reflection./Thread:wink:

It's even simpler: stack next to the pillar and kill him before he even uses his pull skill. It requires the players to know how to play and be competent of course, terrible groups will dodge, use stability, or reflects to beat Kholer and most dungeon bosses. They are open world loot pinatas anyway

[Grogba.6204]

@maddoctor.2738 said:It's even simpler: stack next to the pillar and kill him before he even uses his pull skill. It requires the players to know how to play and be competent of course, terrible groups will dodge, use stability, or reflects to beat Kholer and most dungeon bosses. They are open world loot pinatas anyway

One shotting Lupicus is faster though.

Besides, which time are we talking? current? so just chrono, warr and soulbeasts and instagib him?

[STIHL.2489]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Grogba.6204 said:

Why even dodge/stability against kholer when reflects broke the majority of dungeon fights.

Lupicus. Feedback/Wall of Reflection./Thread:wink:

It's even simpler: stack next to the pillar and kill him before he even uses his pull skill. It requires the players to know how to play and be competent of course, terrible groups will dodge, use stability, or reflects to beat Kholer and most dungeon bosses. They are open world loot pinatas anyway

Or just kite him to the troll.. why bother playing at all..

[maddoctor.2738]

@Grogba.6204 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:It's even simpler: stack next to the pillar and kill him before he even uses his pull skill. It requires the players to know how to play and be competent of course, terrible groups will dodge, use stability, or reflects to beat Kholer and most dungeon bosses. They are open world loot pinatas anyway

One shotting Lupicus is faster though.

Besides, which time are we talking? current? so just chrono, warr and soulbeasts and instagib him?

It was more about Kholer, I don't think you can kill Lupi before he can do any of his big attacks

[STIHL.2489]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Grogba.6204 said:

Why even dodge/stability against kholer when reflects broke the majority of dungeon fights.

Lupicus. Feedback/Wall of Reflection./Thread:wink:

It's even simpler: stack next to the pillar and kill him before he even uses his pull skill. It requires the players to know how to play and be competent of course, terrible groups will dodge, use stability, or reflects to beat Kholer and most dungeon bosses. They are open world loot pinatas anyway

Actually this a great example of Myopic Simple minded play, where when given a ton of tools to work with, they instead chose to just go mindless DPS, which just exonerates @zombyturtle.5980 point about players not grouping or working together at all, but instead just being solo DPS players running in the same path.

Pitiful that this is perceived as some meta style of group play, when it is the apex example of an inability to work together at all, and a prime display at how players can praise the most rudimentary of skill sets, where as opposed to wanting to use all the tools open to them and expand their interaction, they opt to just be crude hammers.. and worship this as meta.

Anyway.. I will never understand the desire for Role's in a game.. but as I said, the a game can only progress as far as it's players, so I see why they ended up putting them in. I still think it is sad and a regression to how great this game could have been, like return to the stone age of gaming.. but then again.. this post shows that is all the players really understood.

[Astralporing.1957]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Grogba.6204 said:

Why even dodge/stability against kholer when reflects broke the majority of dungeon fights.

Lupicus. Feedback/Wall of Reflection./Thread:wink:

It's even simpler: stack next to the pillar and kill him before he even uses his pull skill. It requires the players to know how to play and be competent of course, terrible groups will dodge, use stability, or reflects to beat Kholer and most dungeon bosses. They are open world loot pinatas anyway

Actually this a great example of Myopic Simple minded play, where when given a ton of tools to work with, they instead chose to just go mindless DPS, which just exonerates @zombyturtle.5980 point about players not grouping or working together at all, but instead just being solo DPS players running in the same path.No, it is a great example of simple solutions working best. Your solution is more complicated than the situation warrants, and gives several points of failure that can easily wipe a group. Pillar tactics is simple, and really hard to fail. So, why someone would want to use more complicated, harder to execute tactics with lower chances of success over a simple, easy to pull off and highly succesful one?

[Grogba.6204]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:So, why someone would want to use more complicated, harder to execute tactics with lower chances of success over a simple, easy to pull off and highly succesful one?

Boss design in a nutshell. Unless failing the mechanic kills your party (Arkk Bombs and Solar Blossoms or many breakbars in Raids) it's more of a hassle to execute the mechanic "properly" than to play around it i.E. VG greens, Gorse updrafts, Cairn greens, dedicated kiters for Dhuum and Deimos, etc.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

I can't hate what I do not do.

[Dami.5046]

I miss my GW monk. It's fun to heal and do something else then getting the K's on Damage.

[STIHL.2489]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Grogba.6204 said:

Why even dodge/stability against kholer when reflects broke the majority of dungeon fights.

Lupicus. Feedback/Wall of Reflection./Thread:wink:

It's even simpler: stack next to the pillar and kill him before he even uses his pull skill. It requires the players to know how to play and be competent of course, terrible groups will dodge, use stability, or reflects to beat Kholer and most dungeon bosses. They are open world loot pinatas anyway

Actually this a great example of Myopic Simple minded play, where when given a ton of tools to work with, they instead chose to just go mindless DPS, which just exonerates @zombyturtle.5980 point about players not grouping or working together at all, but instead just being solo DPS players running in the same path.No, it is a great example of simple solutions working best. Your solution is more complicated than the situation warrants, and gives several points of failure that can easily wipe a group. Pillar tactics is simple, and really hard to fail. So, why someone would want to use more complicated, harder to execute tactics with lower chances of success over a simple, easy to pull off and highly succesful one?

No, what is really happening, is people are given a rudimentary method that works, and then as opposed to looking for other solutions and expanding their of skills, branching off and challenging themselves, they just parrot what their betters have told them to do.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"STIHL.2489" said:No, what is really happening, is people are given a rudimentary method that works, and then as opposed to looking for other solutions and expanding their of skills, branching off and challenging themselves, they just parrot what their betters have told them to do.Yes. Because that "rudimentary" method works better than those other solutions. It doesn't matter if they "parrot" what they've been told by their "betters" or not - the end result is still exactly the same. The tactics they use is the best one. There's no gain whatsoever in picking those other options over it.

[STIHL.2489]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"STIHL.2489" said:No, what is really happening, is people are given a rudimentary method that works, and then as opposed to looking for other solutions and expanding their of skills, branching off and challenging themselves, they just parrot what their betters have told them to do.Yes. Because that "rudimentary" method works

better

than those other solutions. It doesn't matter if they "parrot" what they've been told by their "betters" or not - the end result is still exactly the same. The tactics they use is the best one. There's no gain whatsoever in picking those other options over it.

No.. it did not work BETTER, it was just Crudely Effective, and had a low skill cap to reproduce, as such it was the easiest tactic, not the best one. Which is ironic that people that would praise the use of the most crude simpleton methods would be the ones asking for more "challenge" in their game, don't you think?

[Vinceman.4572]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:No, what is really happening, is people are given a rudimentary method that works, and then as opposed to looking for other solutions and expanding their of skills, branching off and challenging themselves, they just parrot what their betters have told them to do.Yes. Because that "rudimentary" method works

better

than those other solutions. It doesn't matter if they "parrot" what they've been told by their "betters" or not - the end result is still exactly the same. The tactics they use is the best one. There's no gain whatsoever in picking those other options over it.

No.. it did not work BETTER, it was just Crudely Effective, and had a low skill cap to reproduce, as such it was the easiest tactic, not the best one. Which is ironic that people that would praise the use of the most crude simpleton methods would be the ones asking for more "challenge" in their game, don't you think?

Well, even if you don't dps bosses like Kholer down in seconds the better player in the group would either have dodged his spin attack and kill him afterwards while 4 players are down or having an own utility slot with stuff like "Endure pain" on war and kill Kholer after usage while - here we go again - the other 4 are in downstate. That's the best option in pugs. Better than relying on the others, rez them and possibly go down as well. If having a reflect would be the best option it would be mandatory for the group otherwise it isn't the best option.

[Zenith.7301]

I hate how necessary support chrono is because I want to play power chrono DPS or mirage in peace but have to instead joinLFG's as a different class to not be expected to go support chrono so I can swap back to mesmer DPS when the group fills and receive complaints about playing mesmer DPS instead of DH/weaver/daredevil.

Chrono/druid unique utility is simply too oppressive to comp diversity.

[Astralporing.1957]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:No, what is really happening, is people are given a rudimentary method that works, and then as opposed to looking for other solutions and expanding their of skills, branching off and challenging themselves, they just parrot what their betters have told them to do.Yes. Because that "rudimentary" method works

better

than those other solutions. It doesn't matter if they "parrot" what they've been told by their "betters" or not - the end result is still exactly the same. The tactics they use is the best one. There's no gain whatsoever in picking those other options over it.

No.. it did not work BETTER, it was just Crudely Effective, and had a low skill cap to reproduce, as such it was the easiest tactic, not the best one. Which is ironic that people that would praise the use of the most crude simpleton methods would be the ones asking for more "challenge" in their game, don't you think?None of the options you mentioned worked any better, and all of them had, as you yourself said, higher skill cap. That's why it was (and still is) the best tactics. Why should you use a more complicated tactics with a higher failure rate if it offers you no advantage over an easier one? That's a question you haven't answered so far.

@Zenith.7301 said:I hate how necessary support chrono is because I want to play power chrono DPS or mirage in peace but have to instead joinLFG's as a different class to not be expected to go support chrono so I can swap back to mesmer DPS when the group fills and receive complaints about playing mesmer DPS instead of DH/weaver/daredevil.

Chrono/druid unique utility is simply too oppressive to comp diversity.That has nothing to do with chrono superiority and a lot with power mesmer being subpar compared to other dps options (Mirage i see noone complaining about if it's one of the bosses it's good on. Only when you try to use it where it't not that good that people might ask for switch - but then, the same is with other dps-es).

[Deepcuts.9740]

I am starting to see the hate for relying on healers.Being a Druid main, when I am on my Guardian and have to rely on others for boons and healing....and seeing lots of Druids giving very few boons with very low duration and crappy heals most of the time, I really do start seeing the hate some people have.Then, once in a blue moon, I get a very good Druid and I forget about it.

[STIHL.2489]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:No, what is really happening, is people are given a rudimentary method that works, and then as opposed to looking for other solutions and expanding their of skills, branching off and challenging themselves, they just parrot what their betters have told them to do.Yes. Because that "rudimentary" method works

better

than those other solutions. It doesn't matter if they "parrot" what they've been told by their "betters" or not - the end result is still exactly the same. The tactics they use is the best one. There's no gain whatsoever in picking those other options over it.

No.. it did not work BETTER, it was just Crudely Effective, and had a low skill cap to reproduce, as such it was the easiest tactic, not the best one. Which is ironic that people that would praise the use of the most crude simpleton methods would be the ones asking for more "challenge" in their game, don't you think?None of the options you mentioned worked any better, and all of them had, as you yourself said, higher skill cap. That's why it was (and still is) the best tactics. Why should you use a more complicated tactics with a higher failure rate if it offers you no advantage over an easier one? That's a question you haven't answered so far.

Reflects seem to work great, not that I used them, but @Gorbulas.1354 mentioned being able to kill Lupin in one hit, that, is awesome! In fact that is epic, and that is well played and amazing tactics at work. I so wish I had played with them, to see that kind of skill and play knowledge unfold.. no.. I often stood behind the pillar like the rest of the scrubs, or used what I could think of when in a group that thought that tactic was tacky. But I wager things like reflects also ripped Kholer apart as well, as it was explained that it made most boss battles a joke. No doubt it has a higher skill demand, and thus a higher chance of failure, but it was an overall better tactic, for those with the skills to pull it off.

Now, as for your question. You shouldn't .. I mean really, why would anyone seek pointless challenge when tedium works?

Do you now See the Irony of the same people that praise simplistic rudimentary methods asking for more challenge?

Now, your turn, answer me this, Why should Aent try to challenge you, when you won't even challenge yourself?

[Astralporing.1957]

@STIHL.2489 said:Reflects seem to work great, not that I used them, but @Gorbulas.1354 mentioned being able to kill Lupin in one hit, that, is awesome! In fact that is epic, and that is well played and amazing tactics at work. I so wish I had played with them, to see that kind of skill and play knowledge unfold.. no.. I often stood behind the pillar like the rest of the scrubs, or used what I could think of when in a group that thought that tactic was tacky. But I wager things like reflects also ripped Kholer apart as well, as it was explained that it made most boss battles a joke.

Nope. The reflected damage on him is not high enough to immediately burst him. In case of Lupi it is different, because Lupi shoots a lot of missiles (and their damage adds up to a really massive amount even when each individual one is not so strong). Additionally, reflects (or stability) do nothing about the second reason why groups wiped on Kholer originally. His summons.Pillar is situated in location where all those summons conveniently appear within melee range or really close by, easy to pull, which makes dealing with them easy. With it, most players end up not even being aware that this mechanic exists, but in his original spawn point you ended up fighting within a crowd of mobs that were attacking you from all sides. This can be really painful in less skilled groups.

No doubt it has a higher skill demand, and thus a higher chance of failure, but it was an overall better tactic, for those with the skills to pull it off.Why exactly it is a better tactics when it offers absolutely no advantage over the pillar one? Because it seeme you are only considering it better for artistic purposes, not for its efficiency.

[STIHL.2489]

@Astralporing.1957

I want you to know.. That I noticed you have not addressed my question.. or my answer to your actual question.

Till you do.. we are done.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"STIHL.2489" said:Now, your turn, answer me this, Why should Aent try to challenge you, when you won't even challenge yourself?

This question has a very simple answer: because those are two completely different types of challenge. You need to understand the difference between an actual challenge and a self imposed challenge.

The actual challenge is finding and then executing the best possible method(s) of defeating the content, the self imposed challenge is intentionally using worse tactics just to make the content artificially more challenging. It's like the ages old argument of "if you want the game to be hard, just play with white gear!" which is incredibly silly, that's not challenge, that's tedium. I want the encounter to challenge me to find the best method of defeating it, not to gimp myself using lackluster methods of beating content "just because".

Which is why dungeons were never an actual challenge once you figured most bosses were loot pinatas and why a solo community was formed around them.