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deadeye needs nerf.

Slaughter.6379

By Slaughter.6379
in World vs. World

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Kayowin.9217

Kayowin.9217

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:Funny enough, I agree because this was posted in the WvW subsection. I also have two potential fixes: either remove PvE gear from WvW, or remove the ability for DE to use rifle in WvW. Nothing short of those will fix this, because WvW is inherently broken and impossible to balance.

Remove rifle and promote more use of malicious backstab as a result? (The more prevalent issue with DE)

Oh yes I forgot about that. Remove mainhand dagger too.

Glad you are not on the balance team....

Yes I'm unironically wanting to remove weapons, because thats a thing we do. Last week we removed chainsaw from warrior and hola-hoop from mesmer.

Noted. :)
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babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

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@"ventusthunder.5067" said:Shadow Meld is a terrible design. I think everyone can agree that in a game there should be play and counterplay.

Play: Stealth.

Counterplay: Reveal.

Counter-counterplay: Shadow Meld.

Specifically designing a skill to counter-counterplay your counterplay is an absolute garbage idea.

It goes both ways.

Play "cast spell X on target"

Counterplay "Stealth"

Counter Counter play "reveal".

Smeld can go when Reveal is removed.

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nativity.3057

nativity.3057

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@babazhook.6805 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:People try to tell how to fight against deadeye, but it's not like you have any time to fight. You run somewhere and you are dead before you can do anything. It's not like you get any signs than deadeye is close. Even if you see smokefield you can't just dodge random time and hope that deadeye backstab same time.

If the DE is using backstab they not necessarily Rifle specced. They can use d/p to stack stealth and they could always do this. DE does let you know a DE about because you get that MARK above your head. DJ from rifle in such a case is easier to avoid then is that backstab.

The way to counter that incoming malicious backstab is the same means one used to counter a backstab prior to DE. The consequences of failing to counter are worse but you DO have more warning , not less. One thing I like to do on my warrior when marked is rely an about face a lot , do not move in straight lines, use AOE and cleave. He still has to get close up and you do not necessarily have to SEE him to help mitigate that damage. You do not necessarily have to dodge that attack , but if you manage to turn around at the right time, or get weakness on the enemy it will hurt a lot less.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

Except what? the person indicated he was not marked. There is no added damage multiplier if you are not marked.

the person indicated that he backstabbed after the mark cast time finished.

my other points are still holds true.

Do you even know how malice works?

This is what the person posted.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

When someone says hey got backstabbed for 20k damage without a mark then he was not marked.

A second person then showed how he was able to get around the warning given to a target that he was marked by marking and immediately attacking. This is not the person I originally responded to. Were this the case there was NO MALICE so no added damage.

Finally to your other points. What other points? The spec DE is premised around malice wherein a marked target will take more damage from attacks. The spec does that. Complaining Core specs for thief can not do that is like complaining that Core specs do not have as many dodges as Daredevil.

Then it was an issue of me mistaking who you were replying to. I was considering the Twitch video clip instead.

Maybe a comparison to core classes was unfair because many core specs were left in the dust when expansions came.BUT, for daredevils, the tradeoff is apparent with what weapons you take. Shortbow is for the mobility, x/pistol for comboing smoke fields. Staff can do big damage, but the animations for it is huge and easily dodged.Then you have rifle that gives you easy access to both stealth and mobility.

@Bazsi.2734 said:

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

Dodge only stealths you if you have a rifle equipped when you dodge, and only if you traited for it. Given the 10 seconds weaponswap cooldown, if the enemy DE downs you with mainly Malicious Backstabs, rifle dodge cannot be the way he maintained steath.

You can stealth for more than 10 secs with rifle then swap into dagger/x for the sweet Malicious backstab. The problem is that backstab is singular at the moment, not plural.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:Shadow Meld is a terrible design. I think everyone can agree that in a game there should be play and counterplay.

Play: Stealth.

Counterplay: Reveal.

Counter-counterplay: Shadow Meld.

Specifically designing a skill to counter-counterplay your counterplay is an absolute garbage idea.

It goes both ways.

Play "cast spell X on target"

Counterplay "Stealth"

Counter Counter play "reveal".

Smeld can go when Reveal is removed.

Except only Glint Revs have access to meta reveal skills. Not to mention the reveal skill is a short ranged cone in front of the Rev.DH has reveal on Spear of Justice, but it's a slow moving projectile with a large cast time and long CD compared to meld.Rangers and Warriors will have to take a non-meta utility skill just to deal with one class, not to mention the CD is much longer.Core necro reveal on shroud skill is a meme. Same for Scrappers.

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babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

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@nativity.3057 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:People try to tell how to fight against deadeye, but it's not like you have any time to fight. You run somewhere and you are dead before you can do anything. It's not like you get any signs than deadeye is close. Even if you see smokefield you can't just dodge random time and hope that deadeye backstab same time.

If the DE is using backstab they not necessarily Rifle specced. They can use d/p to stack stealth and they could always do this. DE does let you know a DE about because you get that MARK above your head. DJ from rifle in such a case is easier to avoid then is that backstab.

The way to counter that incoming malicious backstab is the same means one used to counter a backstab prior to DE. The consequences of failing to counter are worse but you DO have more warning , not less. One thing I like to do on my warrior when marked is rely an about face a lot , do not move in straight lines, use AOE and cleave. He still has to get close up and you do not necessarily have to SEE him to help mitigate that damage. You do not necessarily have to dodge that attack , but if you manage to turn around at the right time, or get weakness on the enemy it will hurt a lot less.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

Except what? the person indicated he was not marked. There is no added damage multiplier if you are not marked.

the person indicated that he backstabbed after the mark cast time finished.

my other points are still holds true.

Do you even know how malice works?

This is what the person posted.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

When someone says hey got backstabbed for 20k damage without a mark then he was not marked.

A second person then showed how he was able to get around the warning given to a target that he was marked by marking and immediately attacking. This is not the person I originally responded to. Were this the case there was NO MALICE so no added damage.

Finally to your other points. What other points? The spec DE is premised around malice wherein a marked target will take more damage from attacks. The spec does that. Complaining Core specs for thief can not do that is like complaining that Core specs do not have as many dodges as Daredevil.

Then it was an issue of me mistaking who you were replying to. I was considering the Twitch video clip instead.

Maybe a comparison to core classes was unfair because many core specs were left in the dust when expansions came.BUT, for daredevils, the tradeoff is apparent with what weapons you take. Shortbow is for the mobility, x/pistol for comboing smoke fields. Staff can do big damage, but the animations for it is huge and easily dodged.Then you have rifle that gives you easy access to both stealth and mobility.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

Dodge only stealths you if you have a rifle equipped when you dodge, and only if you traited for it. Given the 10 seconds weaponswap cooldown, if the enemy DE downs you with mainly Malicious Backstabs, rifle dodge cannot be the way he maintained steath.

You can stealth for more than 10 secs with rifle then swap into dagger/x for the sweet Malicious backstab. The problem is that backstab is singular at the moment, not plural.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:Shadow Meld is a terrible design. I think everyone can agree that in a game there should be play and counterplay.

Play: Stealth.

Counterplay: Reveal.

Counter-counterplay: Shadow Meld.

Specifically designing a skill to counter-counterplay your counterplay is an absolute garbage idea.

It goes both ways.

Play "cast spell X on target"

Counterplay "Stealth"

Counter Counter play "reveal".

Smeld can go when Reveal is removed.

Except only Glint Revs have access to meta reveal skills. Not to mention the reveal skill is a short ranged cone in front of the Rev.DH has reveal on Spear of Justice, but it's a slow moving projectile with a large cast time and long CD compared to meld.Rangers and Warriors will have to take a non-meta utility skill just to deal with one class, not to mention the CD is much longer.Core necro reveal on shroud skill is a meme. Same for Scrappers.

It not material whether the reveals given other classes a meme or not. People can trait them. Again my warrior will trait up on my mark with bloody roar as soon as he encounters DE and it works very well. That the skill is not used is the META is not relevant. We can not base game design around Meta. If you play the meta exclusively and have a weakness to players using stealth it on you.

DE is one of the easiest opponents where one can switch up their utility or trait load on the fly.

As to Mobility, rifle relatively weak compared to the other sets mobility wise. s/d , s/p , p/d and d/p all have as much and more. Rifle specced with Silent scope does NOT have more mobility then a d/p Daredevil and one of the reasons why D/p daredevil can counter them.

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nativity.3057

nativity.3057

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@babazhook.6805 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:People try to tell how to fight against deadeye, but it's not like you have any time to fight. You run somewhere and you are dead before you can do anything. It's not like you get any signs than deadeye is close. Even if you see smokefield you can't just dodge random time and hope that deadeye backstab same time.

If the DE is using backstab they not necessarily Rifle specced. They can use d/p to stack stealth and they could always do this. DE does let you know a DE about because you get that MARK above your head. DJ from rifle in such a case is easier to avoid then is that backstab.

The way to counter that incoming malicious backstab is the same means one used to counter a backstab prior to DE. The consequences of failing to counter are worse but you DO have more warning , not less. One thing I like to do on my warrior when marked is rely an about face a lot , do not move in straight lines, use AOE and cleave. He still has to get close up and you do not necessarily have to SEE him to help mitigate that damage. You do not necessarily have to dodge that attack , but if you manage to turn around at the right time, or get weakness on the enemy it will hurt a lot less.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

Except what? the person indicated he was not marked. There is no added damage multiplier if you are not marked.

the person indicated that he backstabbed after the mark cast time finished.

my other points are still holds true.

Do you even know how malice works?

This is what the person posted.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

When someone says hey got backstabbed for 20k damage without a mark then he was not marked.

A second person then showed how he was able to get around the warning given to a target that he was marked by marking and immediately attacking. This is not the person I originally responded to. Were this the case there was NO MALICE so no added damage.

Finally to your other points. What other points? The spec DE is premised around malice wherein a marked target will take more damage from attacks. The spec does that. Complaining Core specs for thief can not do that is like complaining that Core specs do not have as many dodges as Daredevil.

Then it was an issue of me mistaking who you were replying to. I was considering the Twitch video clip instead.

Maybe a comparison to core classes was unfair because many core specs were left in the dust when expansions came.BUT, for daredevils, the tradeoff is apparent with what weapons you take. Shortbow is for the mobility, x/pistol for comboing smoke fields. Staff can do big damage, but the animations for it is huge and easily dodged.Then you have rifle that gives you easy access to both stealth and mobility.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

Dodge only stealths you if you have a rifle equipped when you dodge, and only if you traited for it. Given the 10 seconds weaponswap cooldown, if the enemy DE downs you with mainly Malicious Backstabs, rifle dodge cannot be the way he maintained steath.

You can stealth for more than 10 secs with rifle then swap into dagger/x for the sweet Malicious backstab. The problem is that backstab is singular at the moment, not plural.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:Shadow Meld is a terrible design. I think everyone can agree that in a game there should be play and counterplay.

Play: Stealth.

Counterplay: Reveal.

Counter-counterplay: Shadow Meld.

Specifically designing a skill to counter-counterplay your counterplay is an absolute garbage idea.

It goes both ways.

Play "cast spell X on target"

Counterplay "Stealth"

Counter Counter play "reveal".

Smeld can go when Reveal is removed.

Except only Glint Revs have access to meta reveal skills. Not to mention the reveal skill is a short ranged cone in front of the Rev.DH has reveal on Spear of Justice, but it's a slow moving projectile with a large cast time and long CD compared to meld.Rangers and Warriors will have to take a non-meta utility skill just to deal with one class, not to mention the CD is much longer.Core necro reveal on shroud skill is a meme. Same for Scrappers.

It not material whether the reveals given other classes a meme or not. People can trait them. Again my warrior will trait up on my mark with bloody roar as soon as he encounters DE and it works very well. That the skill is not used is the META is not relevant. We can not base game design around Meta. If you play the meta exclusively and have a weakness to players using stealth it on you.

DE is one of the easiest opponents where one can switch up their utility or trait load on the fly.

As to Mobility, rifle relatively weak compared to the other sets mobility wise. s/d , s/p , p/d and d/p all have as much and more. Rifle specced with Silent scope does NOT have more mobility then a d/p Daredevil and one of the reasons why D/p daredevil can counter them.

People can trait them, swap them on the fly, but they're specifically going into a niche to counter one spec. It becomes useless once DE isn't the only enemy.

Sword 2 is a port that can't be put on CD unless you use the second chain. Dagger 2 is 450 leap while Death's Retreat is 600 (and note: "The leap has no vertical movement, making it less than useful for crossing gaps."). D/P Shadowshot only works if you hit the target in range. Even Guardian's Sword 2 is a better port than Shadowshot.

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babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

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@nativity.3057 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:People try to tell how to fight against deadeye, but it's not like you have any time to fight. You run somewhere and you are dead before you can do anything. It's not like you get any signs than deadeye is close. Even if you see smokefield you can't just dodge random time and hope that deadeye backstab same time.

If the DE is using backstab they not necessarily Rifle specced. They can use d/p to stack stealth and they could always do this. DE does let you know a DE about because you get that MARK above your head. DJ from rifle in such a case is easier to avoid then is that backstab.

The way to counter that incoming malicious backstab is the same means one used to counter a backstab prior to DE. The consequences of failing to counter are worse but you DO have more warning , not less. One thing I like to do on my warrior when marked is rely an about face a lot , do not move in straight lines, use AOE and cleave. He still has to get close up and you do not necessarily have to SEE him to help mitigate that damage. You do not necessarily have to dodge that attack , but if you manage to turn around at the right time, or get weakness on the enemy it will hurt a lot less.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

Except what? the person indicated he was not marked. There is no added damage multiplier if you are not marked.

the person indicated that he backstabbed after the mark cast time finished.

my other points are still holds true.

Do you even know how malice works?

This is what the person posted.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

When someone says hey got backstabbed for 20k damage without a mark then he was not marked.

A second person then showed how he was able to get around the warning given to a target that he was marked by marking and immediately attacking. This is not the person I originally responded to. Were this the case there was NO MALICE so no added damage.

Finally to your other points. What other points? The spec DE is premised around malice wherein a marked target will take more damage from attacks. The spec does that. Complaining Core specs for thief can not do that is like complaining that Core specs do not have as many dodges as Daredevil.

Then it was an issue of me mistaking who you were replying to. I was considering the Twitch video clip instead.

Maybe a comparison to core classes was unfair because many core specs were left in the dust when expansions came.BUT, for daredevils, the tradeoff is apparent with what weapons you take. Shortbow is for the mobility, x/pistol for comboing smoke fields. Staff can do big damage, but the animations for it is huge and easily dodged.Then you have rifle that gives you easy access to both stealth and mobility.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

Dodge only stealths you if you have a rifle equipped when you dodge, and only if you traited for it. Given the 10 seconds weaponswap cooldown, if the enemy DE downs you with mainly Malicious Backstabs, rifle dodge cannot be the way he maintained steath.

You can stealth for more than 10 secs with rifle then swap into dagger/x for the sweet Malicious backstab. The problem is that backstab is singular at the moment, not plural.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:Shadow Meld is a terrible design. I think everyone can agree that in a game there should be play and counterplay.

Play: Stealth.

Counterplay: Reveal.

Counter-counterplay: Shadow Meld.

Specifically designing a skill to counter-counterplay your counterplay is an absolute garbage idea.

It goes both ways.

Play "cast spell X on target"

Counterplay "Stealth"

Counter Counter play "reveal".

Smeld can go when Reveal is removed.

Except only Glint Revs have access to meta reveal skills. Not to mention the reveal skill is a short ranged cone in front of the Rev.DH has reveal on Spear of Justice, but it's a slow moving projectile with a large cast time and long CD compared to meld.Rangers and Warriors will have to take a non-meta utility skill just to deal with one class, not to mention the CD is much longer.Core necro reveal on shroud skill is a meme. Same for Scrappers.

It not material whether the reveals given other classes a meme or not. People can trait them. Again my warrior will trait up on my mark with bloody roar as soon as he encounters DE and it works very well. That the skill is not used is the META is not relevant. We can not base game design around Meta. If you play the meta exclusively and have a weakness to players using stealth it on you.

DE is one of the easiest opponents where one can switch up their utility or trait load on the fly.

As to Mobility, rifle relatively weak compared to the other sets mobility wise. s/d , s/p , p/d and d/p all have as much and more. Rifle specced with Silent scope does NOT have more mobility then a d/p Daredevil and one of the reasons why D/p daredevil can counter them.

People can trait them, swap them on the fly, but they're specifically going into a niche to counter one spec. It becomes useless once DE isn't the only enemy.

Sword 2 is a port that can't be put on CD unless you use the second chain. Dagger 2 is 450 leap while Death's Retreat is 600 (and note: "The leap has no vertical movement, making it less than useful for crossing gaps."). D/P Shadowshot only works if you hit the target in range. Even Guardian's Sword 2 is a better port than Shadowshot.

Again if people do not want to go niche to fight DE and his stealth it on them. Your are suggesting that META builds be able to deal with this as easily and this is the absolute WRONG thing to do. You do not build diversity and only encourage a locked in Meta when the Meta build can do everything. If your meta build can not deal with a DE do not play meta. Added to this , if those DE builds faced are indeed so infrequent that adding a way to counter them considered niche, then there is no issue is there and this counters the claims these builds everywhere and taking over all formats.

To mobility once more. That shadowport on d/p #3 is longer then DR. D/P users use this to close the gap on DE and it does excellent damage with blind when you do. Cleave followup works very well here and Rifle thief will neither do damage or be able to maintain the gap if relying on Deaths retreat.

Daredevil also has far more access to dodges , some 5 of which can be used in short order, swiftness and immobility cleanses . DE is very susceptible to CC in comparison. Staff also has inherent cleanses and evasive gap closers. While it does not have the same overall mobility of s/d or d/p it does have built in evades and cleanses along with the inherent dodge advantage via the DD spec.

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nativity.3057

nativity.3057

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@babazhook.6805 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:People try to tell how to fight against deadeye, but it's not like you have any time to fight. You run somewhere and you are dead before you can do anything. It's not like you get any signs than deadeye is close. Even if you see smokefield you can't just dodge random time and hope that deadeye backstab same time.

If the DE is using backstab they not necessarily Rifle specced. They can use d/p to stack stealth and they could always do this. DE does let you know a DE about because you get that MARK above your head. DJ from rifle in such a case is easier to avoid then is that backstab.

The way to counter that incoming malicious backstab is the same means one used to counter a backstab prior to DE. The consequences of failing to counter are worse but you DO have more warning , not less. One thing I like to do on my warrior when marked is rely an about face a lot , do not move in straight lines, use AOE and cleave. He still has to get close up and you do not necessarily have to SEE him to help mitigate that damage. You do not necessarily have to dodge that attack , but if you manage to turn around at the right time, or get weakness on the enemy it will hurt a lot less.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

Except what? the person indicated he was not marked. There is no added damage multiplier if you are not marked.

the person indicated that he backstabbed after the mark cast time finished.

my other points are still holds true.

Do you even know how malice works?

This is what the person posted.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

When someone says hey got backstabbed for 20k damage without a mark then he was not marked.

A second person then showed how he was able to get around the warning given to a target that he was marked by marking and immediately attacking. This is not the person I originally responded to. Were this the case there was NO MALICE so no added damage.

Finally to your other points. What other points? The spec DE is premised around malice wherein a marked target will take more damage from attacks. The spec does that. Complaining Core specs for thief can not do that is like complaining that Core specs do not have as many dodges as Daredevil.

Then it was an issue of me mistaking who you were replying to. I was considering the Twitch video clip instead.

Maybe a comparison to core classes was unfair because many core specs were left in the dust when expansions came.BUT, for daredevils, the tradeoff is apparent with what weapons you take. Shortbow is for the mobility, x/pistol for comboing smoke fields. Staff can do big damage, but the animations for it is huge and easily dodged.Then you have rifle that gives you easy access to both stealth and mobility.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

Dodge only stealths you if you have a rifle equipped when you dodge, and only if you traited for it. Given the 10 seconds weaponswap cooldown, if the enemy DE downs you with mainly Malicious Backstabs, rifle dodge cannot be the way he maintained steath.

You can stealth for more than 10 secs with rifle then swap into dagger/x for the sweet Malicious backstab. The problem is that backstab is singular at the moment, not plural.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:Shadow Meld is a terrible design. I think everyone can agree that in a game there should be play and counterplay.

Play: Stealth.

Counterplay: Reveal.

Counter-counterplay: Shadow Meld.

Specifically designing a skill to counter-counterplay your counterplay is an absolute garbage idea.

It goes both ways.

Play "cast spell X on target"

Counterplay "Stealth"

Counter Counter play "reveal".

Smeld can go when Reveal is removed.

Except only Glint Revs have access to meta reveal skills. Not to mention the reveal skill is a short ranged cone in front of the Rev.DH has reveal on Spear of Justice, but it's a slow moving projectile with a large cast time and long CD compared to meld.Rangers and Warriors will have to take a non-meta utility skill just to deal with one class, not to mention the CD is much longer.Core necro reveal on shroud skill is a meme. Same for Scrappers.

It not material whether the reveals given other classes a meme or not. People can trait them. Again my warrior will trait up on my mark with bloody roar as soon as he encounters DE and it works very well. That the skill is not used is the META is not relevant. We can not base game design around Meta. If you play the meta exclusively and have a weakness to players using stealth it on you.

DE is one of the easiest opponents where one can switch up their utility or trait load on the fly.

As to Mobility, rifle relatively weak compared to the other sets mobility wise. s/d , s/p , p/d and d/p all have as much and more. Rifle specced with Silent scope does NOT have more mobility then a d/p Daredevil and one of the reasons why D/p daredevil can counter them.

People can trait them, swap them on the fly, but they're specifically going into a niche to counter one spec. It becomes useless once DE isn't the only enemy.

Sword 2 is a port that can't be put on CD unless you use the second chain. Dagger 2 is 450 leap while Death's Retreat is 600 (and note: "The leap has no vertical movement, making it less than useful for crossing gaps."). D/P Shadowshot only works if you hit the target in range. Even Guardian's Sword 2 is a better port than Shadowshot.

Again if people do not want to go niche to fight DE and his stealth it on them. Your are suggesting that META builds be able to deal with this as easily and this is the absolute WRONG thing to do. You do not build diversity and only encourage a locked in Meta when the Meta build can do everything. If your meta build can not deal with a DE do not play meta. Added to this , if those DE builds faced are indeed so infrequent that adding a way to counter them considered niche, then there is no issue is there and this counters the claims these builds everywhere and taking over all formats.

To mobility once more. That shadowport on d/p #3 is longer then DR. D/P users use this to close the gap on DE and it does excellent damage with blind when you do. Cleave followup works very well here and Rifle thief will neither do damage or be able to maintain the gap if relying on Deaths retreat.

Daredevil also has far more access to dodges , some 5 of which can be used in short order, swiftness and immobility cleanses . DE is very susceptible to CC in comparison. Staff also has inherent cleanses and evasive gap closers. While it does not have the same overall mobility of s/d or d/p it does have built in evades and cleanses along with the inherent dodge advantage via the DD spec.

The fact that Shadow Meld is an ammo skill is what people take issue with. Using a Reveal skill is useless because of the said ammo charge. If Shadow Meld wasn't an ammo skill (maybe some might/other boons to compensate), people would relax a bit on it. It would make going into the niche traits/utilities meaningful. Right now, using those skills has minimum impact because the deadeye has another charge.

Yes, D/P shadowport is 900 range. But it requires a target and you need to be in range. Rifle thief doesn't rely on Death's Retreat as the main disengage. The disengage is the dodge stealth. People were up in arms about DD having 3 dodge bars. Right now, the best dodges are Mirage's and Deadeye's. Might Makes Right was nerfed when ANet realized extra sustain on dodge rolls was strong; I don't see why stealth on dodge is left as is.

Having extra dodges is extremely useful against Deadeyes. I still take issue to DJ becoming unblockable. It forces the only counterplay to be dodging, since not every class has easy access to invulnerability.

EDIT: Additionally, Daredevil dodges aren't that huge of a deal because of the animation lock. You can time your CC at the end of Daredevil's dodge and boom, dead thief. Stealthing removes that possibility because you can't follow up.

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Sleepwalker.1398

Sleepwalker.1398

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Currently there are many other roaming classes besides DE that are op and can kill you in a couple of moves.I haven't seen a DE take out a full zerg and i haven't seen a zerg full of DE either.So these ppl complaining must be roamers or wannabe salty roamers.The roamers that have idea about DE weaknesses will hang around for a fight and also not run and often get the DE.The ones that have no idea and not bothered to learn about the class are the entitled ones that expect a trophy for finishing last type and ones to come to forums to complain.

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duillyn.2697

duillyn.2697

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Dude, DE is hide and seek wars. I kill so many of them but it changes zero from the fact that it's a toxic build to stand and wait for the DE to decide what to do. My time is more valuable to me than your time. No 1v1 fight should give the (much) larger amount of agency to one side. It's as simple as that, DE is a poorly designed class.

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Junkpile.7439

Junkpile.7439

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@Sleepwalker.1398 said:Currently there are many other roaming classes besides DE that are op and can kill you in a couple of moves.I haven't seen a DE take out a full zerg and i haven't seen a zerg full of DE either.So these ppl complaining must be roamers or wannabe salty roamers.The roamers that have idea about DE weaknesses will hang around for a fight and also not run and often get the DE.The ones that have no idea and not bothered to learn about the class are the entitled ones that expect a trophy for finishing last type and ones to come to forums to complain.How can you learn when you always die before you can even start to fight back? Still nobody haven't told me how you can dodge one hit skill that come from stealth. :D

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meri.9187

meri.9187

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@duillyn.2697 said:Dude, DE is hide and seek wars. I kill so many of them but it changes zero from the fact that it's a toxic build to stand and wait for the DE to decide what to do. My time is more valuable to me than your time. No 1v1 fight should give the (much) larger amount of agency to one side. It's as simple as that, DE is a poorly designed class.

I feel like this is pretty accurate. It's just a bad design. It's not fun to play against. It's boring and uninteractive with a low skill cap. Simple.

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DaVid Darksoul.4985

DaVid Darksoul.4985

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I myself am having a very hard time against Deadeyes, and I play necro class. People say just run away but its kind of hard to run away when you are downed with 2 shots. If I can manage to survive the surprise assault they just retreat beyond my range and hammer me, nothing I can do. Have had some success trait the fear when down with damage when feared using reaper mode (adds chill and bleed). Have had thieves that were stalking me for easy kills suddenly down themselves on their first hit. But against the 1500 range I have nothing (that seems to include Rangers 1500 range rapid shots). Also have seen an increase in mirages who somehow manage to unleash all their skilss in one shot, seriously I run most times with combat log open and suddenly see it fill up with every mirage skill hitting me...insta kill. No class should be able to put out so much danmage as to 1-2 shot someone.

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babazhook.6805

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@nativity.3057 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:People try to tell how to fight against deadeye, but it's not like you have any time to fight. You run somewhere and you are dead before you can do anything. It's not like you get any signs than deadeye is close. Even if you see smokefield you can't just dodge random time and hope that deadeye backstab same time.

If the DE is using backstab they not necessarily Rifle specced. They can use d/p to stack stealth and they could always do this. DE does let you know a DE about because you get that MARK above your head. DJ from rifle in such a case is easier to avoid then is that backstab.

The way to counter that incoming malicious backstab is the same means one used to counter a backstab prior to DE. The consequences of failing to counter are worse but you DO have more warning , not less. One thing I like to do on my warrior when marked is rely an about face a lot , do not move in straight lines, use AOE and cleave. He still has to get close up and you do not necessarily have to SEE him to help mitigate that damage. You do not necessarily have to dodge that attack , but if you manage to turn around at the right time, or get weakness on the enemy it will hurt a lot less.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

Except what? the person indicated he was not marked. There is no added damage multiplier if you are not marked.

the person indicated that he backstabbed after the mark cast time finished.

my other points are still holds true.

Do you even know how malice works?

This is what the person posted.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

When someone says hey got backstabbed for 20k damage without a mark then he was not marked.

A second person then showed how he was able to get around the warning given to a target that he was marked by marking and immediately attacking. This is not the person I originally responded to. Were this the case there was NO MALICE so no added damage.

Finally to your other points. What other points? The spec DE is premised around malice wherein a marked target will take more damage from attacks. The spec does that. Complaining Core specs for thief can not do that is like complaining that Core specs do not have as many dodges as Daredevil.

Then it was an issue of me mistaking who you were replying to. I was considering the Twitch video clip instead.

Maybe a comparison to core classes was unfair because many core specs were left in the dust when expansions came.BUT, for daredevils, the tradeoff is apparent with what weapons you take. Shortbow is for the mobility, x/pistol for comboing smoke fields. Staff can do big damage, but the animations for it is huge and easily dodged.Then you have rifle that gives you easy access to both stealth and mobility.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

Dodge only stealths you if you have a rifle equipped when you dodge, and only if you traited for it. Given the 10 seconds weaponswap cooldown, if the enemy DE downs you with mainly Malicious Backstabs, rifle dodge cannot be the way he maintained steath.

You can stealth for more than 10 secs with rifle then swap into dagger/x for the sweet Malicious backstab. The problem is that backstab is singular at the moment, not plural.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:Shadow Meld is a terrible design. I think everyone can agree that in a game there should be play and counterplay.

Play: Stealth.

Counterplay: Reveal.

Counter-counterplay: Shadow Meld.

Specifically designing a skill to counter-counterplay your counterplay is an absolute garbage idea.

It goes both ways.

Play "cast spell X on target"

Counterplay "Stealth"

Counter Counter play "reveal".

Smeld can go when Reveal is removed.

Except only Glint Revs have access to meta reveal skills. Not to mention the reveal skill is a short ranged cone in front of the Rev.DH has reveal on Spear of Justice, but it's a slow moving projectile with a large cast time and long CD compared to meld.Rangers and Warriors will have to take a non-meta utility skill just to deal with one class, not to mention the CD is much longer.Core necro reveal on shroud skill is a meme. Same for Scrappers.

It not material whether the reveals given other classes a meme or not. People can trait them. Again my warrior will trait up on my mark with bloody roar as soon as he encounters DE and it works very well. That the skill is not used is the META is not relevant. We can not base game design around Meta. If you play the meta exclusively and have a weakness to players using stealth it on you.

DE is one of the easiest opponents where one can switch up their utility or trait load on the fly.

As to Mobility, rifle relatively weak compared to the other sets mobility wise. s/d , s/p , p/d and d/p all have as much and more. Rifle specced with Silent scope does NOT have more mobility then a d/p Daredevil and one of the reasons why D/p daredevil can counter them.

People can trait them, swap them on the fly, but they're specifically going into a niche to counter one spec. It becomes useless once DE isn't the only enemy.

Sword 2 is a port that can't be put on CD unless you use the second chain. Dagger 2 is 450 leap while Death's Retreat is 600 (and note: "The leap has no vertical movement, making it less than useful for crossing gaps."). D/P Shadowshot only works if you hit the target in range. Even Guardian's Sword 2 is a better port than Shadowshot.

Again if people do not want to go niche to fight DE and his stealth it on them. Your are suggesting that META builds be able to deal with this as easily and this is the absolute WRONG thing to do. You do not build diversity and only encourage a locked in Meta when the Meta build can do everything. If your meta build can not deal with a DE do not play meta. Added to this , if those DE builds faced are indeed so infrequent that adding a way to counter them considered niche, then there is no issue is there and this counters the claims these builds everywhere and taking over all formats.

To mobility once more. That shadowport on d/p #3 is longer then DR. D/P users use this to close the gap on DE and it does excellent damage with blind when you do. Cleave followup works very well here and Rifle thief will neither do damage or be able to maintain the gap if relying on Deaths retreat.

Daredevil also has far more access to dodges , some 5 of which can be used in short order, swiftness and immobility cleanses . DE is very susceptible to CC in comparison. Staff also has inherent cleanses and evasive gap closers. While it does not have the same overall mobility of s/d or d/p it does have built in evades and cleanses along with the inherent dodge advantage via the DD spec.

The fact that Shadow Meld is an ammo skill is what people take issue with. Using a Reveal skill is useless because of the said ammo charge. If Shadow Meld wasn't an ammo skill (maybe some might/other boons to compensate), people would relax a bit on it. It would make going into the niche traits/utilities meaningful. Right now, using those skills has minimum impact because the deadeye has another charge.

Yes, D/P shadowport is 900 range. But it requires a target and you need to be in range. Rifle thief doesn't rely on Death's Retreat as the main disengage. The disengage is the dodge stealth. People were up in arms about DD having 3 dodge bars. Right now, the best dodges are Mirage's and Deadeye's. Might Makes Right was nerfed when ANet realized extra sustain on dodge rolls was strong; I don't see why stealth on dodge is left as is.

Having extra dodges is extremely useful against Deadeyes. I still take issue to DJ becoming unblockable. It forces the only counterplay to be dodging, since not every class has easy access to invulnerability.

EDIT: Additionally, Daredevil dodges aren't that huge of a deal because of the animation lock. You can time your CC at the end of Daredevil's dodge and boom, dead thief. Stealthing removes that possibility because you can't follow up.

You continue to understae the abilities and advantages of a daredevil in a Daredevil vs DE fight. I see Daredevils wreck DE's have wrecked them using a DD and have been wrecked. One thing continually missed or ignored is that virtually all the DE utility skills and traits AND a number of the Rifle Skills only work against the Mark, unlike a Daredevil where skills and traits used are equally effective against any opponent.

This gives the DE an advantage in a good number of 1v1's but that is EXACTLY what the community asked for. Previous iterations of thief were seen as +1 combatants and or hit and run types that used mobility and stealth to escape fights they could not win. DE is given significant tools to deal against a single opponet (The mark) so as to deal more damage and people complain about that ability. If you come on any fight where a DE targets an ally and you are on a DD spec, you have plenty of tools to take that DE out and specifically those ports. That shadowstrike port hits the Glassier builds HARD and will port before a restealth. You have plenty of these available. Id the DE does not switch off targets and make the DD the mark he will be hard pressed to come out of such a matchup intact and will often leave the scene entirely.

I had been playing DE in various forms for some time since release and recently wnet back to my Daredevil Staff/ D/P build and am having no real issues with them even without a reveal. Yes you can be downed if not paying attention and tied up with another but you can do the same thing in turn.

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babazhook.6805

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@DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:I myself am having a very hard time against Deadeyes, and I play necro class. People say just run away but its kind of hard to run away when you are downed with 2 shots. If I can manage to survive the surprise assault they just retreat beyond my range and hammer me, nothing I can do. Have had some success trait the fear when down with damage when feared using reaper mode (adds chill and bleed). Have had thieves that were stalking me for easy kills suddenly down themselves on their first hit. But against the 1500 range I have nothing (that seems to include Rangers 1500 range rapid shots). Also have seen an increase in mirages who somehow manage to unleash all their skilss in one shot, seriously I run most times with combat log open and suddenly see it fill up with every mirage skill hitting me...insta kill. No class should be able to put out so much danmage as to 1-2 shot someone.

It a poor matchup all around but then any ranged spec is hard for a Necormancer to manage. Warriors with Rifle can wreck a necro as well. The only real think you have is that Posion Cloud to help prevent malice buildup. Then dodg the DJ , granted easier said then done. Those same mirages can also wreck a DE using the same move when the DE pops out to shoot. Ranger also has Worldy Impact which cna lay on lots of hurt at once.

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nativity.3057

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@babazhook.6805 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:People try to tell how to fight against deadeye, but it's not like you have any time to fight. You run somewhere and you are dead before you can do anything. It's not like you get any signs than deadeye is close. Even if you see smokefield you can't just dodge random time and hope that deadeye backstab same time.

If the DE is using backstab they not necessarily Rifle specced. They can use d/p to stack stealth and they could always do this. DE does let you know a DE about because you get that MARK above your head. DJ from rifle in such a case is easier to avoid then is that backstab.

The way to counter that incoming malicious backstab is the same means one used to counter a backstab prior to DE. The consequences of failing to counter are worse but you DO have more warning , not less. One thing I like to do on my warrior when marked is rely an about face a lot , do not move in straight lines, use AOE and cleave. He still has to get close up and you do not necessarily have to SEE him to help mitigate that damage. You do not necessarily have to dodge that attack , but if you manage to turn around at the right time, or get weakness on the enemy it will hurt a lot less.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

Except what? the person indicated he was not marked. There is no added damage multiplier if you are not marked.

the person indicated that he backstabbed after the mark cast time finished.

my other points are still holds true.

Do you even know how malice works?

This is what the person posted.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

When someone says hey got backstabbed for 20k damage without a mark then he was not marked.

A second person then showed how he was able to get around the warning given to a target that he was marked by marking and immediately attacking. This is not the person I originally responded to. Were this the case there was NO MALICE so no added damage.

Finally to your other points. What other points? The spec DE is premised around malice wherein a marked target will take more damage from attacks. The spec does that. Complaining Core specs for thief can not do that is like complaining that Core specs do not have as many dodges as Daredevil.

Then it was an issue of me mistaking who you were replying to. I was considering the Twitch video clip instead.

Maybe a comparison to core classes was unfair because many core specs were left in the dust when expansions came.BUT, for daredevils, the tradeoff is apparent with what weapons you take. Shortbow is for the mobility, x/pistol for comboing smoke fields. Staff can do big damage, but the animations for it is huge and easily dodged.Then you have rifle that gives you easy access to both stealth and mobility.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

Dodge only stealths you if you have a rifle equipped when you dodge, and only if you traited for it. Given the 10 seconds weaponswap cooldown, if the enemy DE downs you with mainly Malicious Backstabs, rifle dodge cannot be the way he maintained steath.

You can stealth for more than 10 secs with rifle then swap into dagger/x for the sweet Malicious backstab. The problem is that backstab is singular at the moment, not plural.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:Shadow Meld is a terrible design. I think everyone can agree that in a game there should be play and counterplay.

Play: Stealth.

Counterplay: Reveal.

Counter-counterplay: Shadow Meld.

Specifically designing a skill to counter-counterplay your counterplay is an absolute garbage idea.

It goes both ways.

Play "cast spell X on target"

Counterplay "Stealth"

Counter Counter play "reveal".

Smeld can go when Reveal is removed.

Except only Glint Revs have access to meta reveal skills. Not to mention the reveal skill is a short ranged cone in front of the Rev.DH has reveal on Spear of Justice, but it's a slow moving projectile with a large cast time and long CD compared to meld.Rangers and Warriors will have to take a non-meta utility skill just to deal with one class, not to mention the CD is much longer.Core necro reveal on shroud skill is a meme. Same for Scrappers.

It not material whether the reveals given other classes a meme or not. People can trait them. Again my warrior will trait up on my mark with bloody roar as soon as he encounters DE and it works very well. That the skill is not used is the META is not relevant. We can not base game design around Meta. If you play the meta exclusively and have a weakness to players using stealth it on you.

DE is one of the easiest opponents where one can switch up their utility or trait load on the fly.

As to Mobility, rifle relatively weak compared to the other sets mobility wise. s/d , s/p , p/d and d/p all have as much and more. Rifle specced with Silent scope does NOT have more mobility then a d/p Daredevil and one of the reasons why D/p daredevil can counter them.

People can trait them, swap them on the fly, but they're specifically going into a niche to counter one spec. It becomes useless once DE isn't the only enemy.

Sword 2 is a port that can't be put on CD unless you use the second chain. Dagger 2 is 450 leap while Death's Retreat is 600 (and note: "The leap has no vertical movement, making it less than useful for crossing gaps."). D/P Shadowshot only works if you hit the target in range. Even Guardian's Sword 2 is a better port than Shadowshot.

Again if people do not want to go niche to fight DE and his stealth it on them. Your are suggesting that META builds be able to deal with this as easily and this is the absolute WRONG thing to do. You do not build diversity and only encourage a locked in Meta when the Meta build can do everything. If your meta build can not deal with a DE do not play meta. Added to this , if those DE builds faced are indeed so infrequent that adding a way to counter them considered niche, then there is no issue is there and this counters the claims these builds everywhere and taking over all formats.

To mobility once more. That shadowport on d/p #3 is longer then DR. D/P users use this to close the gap on DE and it does excellent damage with blind when you do. Cleave followup works very well here and Rifle thief will neither do damage or be able to maintain the gap if relying on Deaths retreat.

Daredevil also has far more access to dodges , some 5 of which can be used in short order, swiftness and immobility cleanses . DE is very susceptible to CC in comparison. Staff also has inherent cleanses and evasive gap closers. While it does not have the same overall mobility of s/d or d/p it does have built in evades and cleanses along with the inherent dodge advantage via the DD spec.

The fact that Shadow Meld is an ammo skill is what people take issue with. Using a Reveal skill is useless because of the said ammo charge. If Shadow Meld wasn't an ammo skill (maybe some might/other boons to compensate), people would relax a bit on it. It would make going into the niche traits/utilities meaningful. Right now, using those skills has minimum impact because the deadeye has another charge.

Yes, D/P shadowport is 900 range. But it requires a target and you need to be in range. Rifle thief doesn't rely on Death's Retreat as the main disengage. The disengage is the dodge stealth. People were up in arms about DD having 3 dodge bars. Right now, the best dodges are Mirage's and Deadeye's. Might Makes Right was nerfed when ANet realized extra sustain on dodge rolls was strong; I don't see why stealth on dodge is left as is.

Having extra dodges is extremely useful against Deadeyes. I still take issue to DJ becoming unblockable. It forces the only counterplay to be dodging, since not every class has easy access to invulnerability.

EDIT: Additionally, Daredevil dodges aren't that huge of a deal because of the animation lock. You can time your CC at the end of Daredevil's dodge and boom, dead thief. Stealthing removes that possibility because you can't follow up.

You continue to understae the abilities and advantages of a daredevil in a Daredevil vs DE fight. I see Daredevils wreck DE's have wrecked them using a DD and have been wrecked. One thing continually missed or ignored is that virtually all the DE utility skills and traits AND a number of the Rifle Skills only work against the Mark, unlike a Daredevil where skills and traits used are equally effective against any opponent.

This gives the DE an advantage in a good number of 1v1's but that is EXACTLY what the community asked for. Previous iterations of thief were seen as +1 combatants and or hit and run types that used mobility and stealth to escape fights they could not win. DE is given significant tools to deal against a single opponet (The mark) so as to deal more damage and people complain about that ability. If you come on any fight where a DE targets an ally and you are on a DD spec, you have plenty of tools to take that DE out and specifically those ports. That shadowstrike port hits the Glassier builds HARD and will port before a restealth. You have plenty of these available. Id the DE does not switch off targets and make the DD the mark he will be hard pressed to come out of such a matchup intact and will often leave the scene entirely.

I had been playing DE in various forms for some time since release and recently wnet back to my Daredevil Staff/ D/P build and am having no real issues with them even without a reveal. Yes you can be downed if not paying attention and tied up with another but you can do the same thing in turn.

Deadeye was a spec made by the community. Doesn't mean DE is a balanced spec by any means.Core thief was a high skill cap profession where misplaying meant dying, but playing it to its optimum meant stomping. Mirror thief matchups were fun, and core thieves dueling different specs required the thief player to be better than others (obviously there are certain counters good thief players couldn't overcome, but that was part of the fun). Deadeye is legitimately a low skill cap playstyle that came about when bad thieves couldn't play their damn profession.

You're focusing in on the Daredevil vs Deadeye matchup. Daredevils have more utility to deal with a Deadeye than other specs, aka a counter in some sense. It would make sense that you don't have issue taking the fight because you are meant to win that matchup. Try playing different classes into Deadeye, and you'll realize why many players are annoyed.

Compared to the other thief builds, Deadeye is the easiest to play with little drawback due its damage, range, and disengage. You being able to do well with it doesn't mean you're a better player; just one who abuses meta builds. It's similar to players who duel on Condi Mirage and think they're the best ever, but in reality they're just abusing a spec meant to win 1v1s.

No other class can achieve single damage burst similar to Deadeye. The only remotely close class that can is Fresh Air Weaver, but they need to chain other skills to land their huge burst.Sorry to say, but you're simply one of the many players who enjoy having their classes being meta/top and will argue against those who would even think of a nerf. I understand wanting to keep your favorite class at the top since it's more fun, but please, get a grip and realize it's not healthy for the game.

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Fat Disgrace.4275

Fat Disgrace.4275

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@Junkpile.7439 said:

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:Currently there are many other roaming classes besides DE that are op and can kill you in a couple of moves.I haven't seen a DE take out a full zerg and i haven't seen a zerg full of DE either.So these ppl complaining must be roamers or wannabe salty roamers.The roamers that have idea about DE weaknesses will hang around for a fight and also not run and often get the DE.The ones that have no idea and not bothered to learn about the class are the entitled ones that expect a trophy for finishing last type and ones to come to forums to complain.How can you learn when you always die before you can even start to fight back? Still nobody haven't told me how you can dodge one hit skill that come from stealth. :D

By playing 1 your self, give it a week or so and stuff becomes a lot easier and you react quicker but you wont survive all de encounters.

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babazhook.6805

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@nativity.3057 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:People try to tell how to fight against deadeye, but it's not like you have any time to fight. You run somewhere and you are dead before you can do anything. It's not like you get any signs than deadeye is close. Even if you see smokefield you can't just dodge random time and hope that deadeye backstab same time.

If the DE is using backstab they not necessarily Rifle specced. They can use d/p to stack stealth and they could always do this. DE does let you know a DE about because you get that MARK above your head. DJ from rifle in such a case is easier to avoid then is that backstab.

The way to counter that incoming malicious backstab is the same means one used to counter a backstab prior to DE. The consequences of failing to counter are worse but you DO have more warning , not less. One thing I like to do on my warrior when marked is rely an about face a lot , do not move in straight lines, use AOE and cleave. He still has to get close up and you do not necessarily have to SEE him to help mitigate that damage. You do not necessarily have to dodge that attack , but if you manage to turn around at the right time, or get weakness on the enemy it will hurt a lot less.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

Except what? the person indicated he was not marked. There is no added damage multiplier if you are not marked.

the person indicated that he backstabbed after the mark cast time finished.

my other points are still holds true.

Do you even know how malice works?

This is what the person posted.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

When someone says hey got backstabbed for 20k damage without a mark then he was not marked.

A second person then showed how he was able to get around the warning given to a target that he was marked by marking and immediately attacking. This is not the person I originally responded to. Were this the case there was NO MALICE so no added damage.

Finally to your other points. What other points? The spec DE is premised around malice wherein a marked target will take more damage from attacks. The spec does that. Complaining Core specs for thief can not do that is like complaining that Core specs do not have as many dodges as Daredevil.

Then it was an issue of me mistaking who you were replying to. I was considering the Twitch video clip instead.

Maybe a comparison to core classes was unfair because many core specs were left in the dust when expansions came.BUT, for daredevils, the tradeoff is apparent with what weapons you take. Shortbow is for the mobility, x/pistol for comboing smoke fields. Staff can do big damage, but the animations for it is huge and easily dodged.Then you have rifle that gives you easy access to both stealth and mobility.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

Dodge only stealths you if you have a rifle equipped when you dodge, and only if you traited for it. Given the 10 seconds weaponswap cooldown, if the enemy DE downs you with mainly Malicious Backstabs, rifle dodge cannot be the way he maintained steath.

You can stealth for more than 10 secs with rifle then swap into dagger/x for the sweet Malicious backstab. The problem is that backstab is singular at the moment, not plural.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:Shadow Meld is a terrible design. I think everyone can agree that in a game there should be play and counterplay.

Play: Stealth.

Counterplay: Reveal.

Counter-counterplay: Shadow Meld.

Specifically designing a skill to counter-counterplay your counterplay is an absolute garbage idea.

It goes both ways.

Play "cast spell X on target"

Counterplay "Stealth"

Counter Counter play "reveal".

Smeld can go when Reveal is removed.

Except only Glint Revs have access to meta reveal skills. Not to mention the reveal skill is a short ranged cone in front of the Rev.DH has reveal on Spear of Justice, but it's a slow moving projectile with a large cast time and long CD compared to meld.Rangers and Warriors will have to take a non-meta utility skill just to deal with one class, not to mention the CD is much longer.Core necro reveal on shroud skill is a meme. Same for Scrappers.

It not material whether the reveals given other classes a meme or not. People can trait them. Again my warrior will trait up on my mark with bloody roar as soon as he encounters DE and it works very well. That the skill is not used is the META is not relevant. We can not base game design around Meta. If you play the meta exclusively and have a weakness to players using stealth it on you.

DE is one of the easiest opponents where one can switch up their utility or trait load on the fly.

As to Mobility, rifle relatively weak compared to the other sets mobility wise. s/d , s/p , p/d and d/p all have as much and more. Rifle specced with Silent scope does NOT have more mobility then a d/p Daredevil and one of the reasons why D/p daredevil can counter them.

People can trait them, swap them on the fly, but they're specifically going into a niche to counter one spec. It becomes useless once DE isn't the only enemy.

Sword 2 is a port that can't be put on CD unless you use the second chain. Dagger 2 is 450 leap while Death's Retreat is 600 (and note: "The leap has no vertical movement, making it less than useful for crossing gaps."). D/P Shadowshot only works if you hit the target in range. Even Guardian's Sword 2 is a better port than Shadowshot.

Again if people do not want to go niche to fight DE and his stealth it on them. Your are suggesting that META builds be able to deal with this as easily and this is the absolute WRONG thing to do. You do not build diversity and only encourage a locked in Meta when the Meta build can do everything. If your meta build can not deal with a DE do not play meta. Added to this , if those DE builds faced are indeed so infrequent that adding a way to counter them considered niche, then there is no issue is there and this counters the claims these builds everywhere and taking over all formats.

To mobility once more. That shadowport on d/p #3 is longer then DR. D/P users use this to close the gap on DE and it does excellent damage with blind when you do. Cleave followup works very well here and Rifle thief will neither do damage or be able to maintain the gap if relying on Deaths retreat.

Daredevil also has far more access to dodges , some 5 of which can be used in short order, swiftness and immobility cleanses . DE is very susceptible to CC in comparison. Staff also has inherent cleanses and evasive gap closers. While it does not have the same overall mobility of s/d or d/p it does have built in evades and cleanses along with the inherent dodge advantage via the DD spec.

The fact that Shadow Meld is an ammo skill is what people take issue with. Using a Reveal skill is useless because of the said ammo charge. If Shadow Meld wasn't an ammo skill (maybe some might/other boons to compensate), people would relax a bit on it. It would make going into the niche traits/utilities meaningful. Right now, using those skills has minimum impact because the deadeye has another charge.

Yes, D/P shadowport is 900 range. But it requires a target and you need to be in range. Rifle thief doesn't rely on Death's Retreat as the main disengage. The disengage is the dodge stealth. People were up in arms about DD having 3 dodge bars. Right now, the best dodges are Mirage's and Deadeye's. Might Makes Right was nerfed when ANet realized extra sustain on dodge rolls was strong; I don't see why stealth on dodge is left as is.

Having extra dodges is extremely useful against Deadeyes. I still take issue to DJ becoming unblockable. It forces the only counterplay to be dodging, since not every class has easy access to invulnerability.

EDIT: Additionally, Daredevil dodges aren't that huge of a deal because of the animation lock. You can time your CC at the end of Daredevil's dodge and boom, dead thief. Stealthing removes that possibility because you can't follow up.

You continue to understae the abilities and advantages of a daredevil in a Daredevil vs DE fight. I see Daredevils wreck DE's have wrecked them using a DD and have been wrecked. One thing continually missed or ignored is that virtually all the DE utility skills and traits AND a number of the Rifle Skills only work against the Mark, unlike a Daredevil where skills and traits used are equally effective against any opponent.

This gives the DE an advantage in a good number of 1v1's but that is EXACTLY what the community asked for. Previous iterations of thief were seen as +1 combatants and or hit and run types that used mobility and stealth to escape fights they could not win. DE is given significant tools to deal against a single opponet (The mark) so as to deal more damage and people complain about that ability. If you come on any fight where a DE targets an ally and you are on a DD spec, you have plenty of tools to take that DE out and specifically those ports. That shadowstrike port hits the Glassier builds HARD and will port before a restealth. You have plenty of these available. Id the DE does not switch off targets and make the DD the mark he will be hard pressed to come out of such a matchup intact and will often leave the scene entirely.

I had been playing DE in various forms for some time since release and recently wnet back to my Daredevil Staff/ D/P build and am having no real issues with them even without a reveal. Yes you can be downed if not paying attention and tied up with another but you can do the same thing in turn.

Deadeye was a spec made by the community. Doesn't mean DE is a balanced spec by any means.Core thief was a high skill cap profession where misplaying meant dying, but playing it to its optimum meant stomping. Mirror thief matchups were fun, and core thieves dueling different specs required the thief player to be better than others (obviously there are certain counters good thief players couldn't overcome, but that was part of the fun). Deadeye is legitimately a low skill cap playstyle that came about when bad thieves couldn't play their kitten profession.

You're focusing in on the Daredevil vs Deadeye matchup. Daredevils have more utility to deal with a Deadeye than other specs, aka a counter in some sense. It would make sense that you don't have issue taking the fight because you are meant to win that matchup. Try playing different classes into Deadeye, and you'll realize why many players are annoyed.

Compared to the other thief builds, Deadeye is the easiest to play with little drawback due its damage, range, and disengage. You being able to do well with it doesn't mean you're a better player; just one who abuses meta builds. It's similar to players who duel on Condi Mirage and think they're the best ever, but in reality they're just abusing a spec meant to win 1v1s.

No other class can achieve single damage burst similar to Deadeye. The only remotely close class that can is Fresh Air Weaver, but they need to chain other skills to land their huge burst.Sorry to say, but you're simply one of the many players who enjoy having their classes being meta/top and will argue against those who would even think of a nerf. I understand wanting to keep your favorite class at the top since it's more fun, but please, get a grip and realize it's not healthy for the game.

I also play warrior against DE and can win that match. I have seen Gaurdian/dhs beating DE's handily. While I play all professions I can not speak much as to how they do it myself. Ranger is also a good matchup against a DE as is the Holo.

Necro and Ele are likely at the bottom of the barrel . See I PLAY a DE even as I do play other classes. I play Daredevil. I play them for hours on end and there all manner of players I encounter in WvW that know how to deal with them. Sorry to say it but your suggesting the DE is meta and top of the heap is simply false.

You sound very much like that guy who posted some years ago complaining about the Daredevil theif long before there was a DE. He indicated he had no problems killing any other class and only the Daredevil created problems for him. He wanted them toned down. Do you see the problem with that logic? As to single burst damage you are wrong. Soulbeast can recreate the same and I have gotten that high damage on my kill shot warrior.

here just an example of the Soulbeast one shot. A thread was started on this some time ago. These guys can kill a DE pretty quick even if the DE stealths. It harder for them to kill a dredevil because the daredevil better able to dodge. Soulbeasts I tend to see in WvW with this tend to use Smokescale to stealth.

https://clips.twitch.tv/TastyUninterestedSlothDatSheffy

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Shadowcat.2680

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@"babazhook.6805" said:here just an example of the Soulbeast one shot. A thread was started on this some time ago. These guys can kill a DE pretty quick even if the DE stealths. It harder for them to kill a dredevil because the daredevil better able to dodge. Soulbeasts I tend to see in WvW with this tend to use Smokescale to stealth.

https://clips.twitch.tv/TastyUninterestedSlothDatSheffy

This is a clip of Harsh Master in sPvP. You won't see a build quite like his in WvW simply because there's too much open space for a glass melee soulbeast (glass with both gear and traits) to be successful without getting melted horribly before it can close in with most targets. Harsh Master uses dagger/warhorn and greatsword for stealth stacking with the smokescale's smoke field before stalking a target on a node.

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Junkpile.7439

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:here just an example of the Soulbeast one shot. A thread was started on this some time ago. These guys can kill a DE pretty quick even if the DE stealths. It harder for them to kill a dredevil because the daredevil better able to dodge. Soulbeasts I tend to see in WvW with this tend to use Smokescale to stealth.

This is a clip of Harsh Master in sPvP. You won't see a build quite like his in WvW simply because there's too much open space for a glass melee soulbeast (glass with both gear and traits) to be successful without getting melted horribly before it can close in with most targets. Harsh Master uses dagger/warhorn and greatsword for stealth stacking with the smokescale's smoke field before stalking a target on a node.That ele player probably was just slow. Maybe he should play soulbeast a week and stuff becomes a lot easier and he react quicker.

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Shroud.2307

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@"DaVid Darksoul.4985" said:I myself am having a very hard time against Deadeyes, and I play necro class. People say just run away but its kind of hard to run away when you are downed with 2 shots. If I can manage to survive the surprise assault they just retreat beyond my range and hammer me, nothing I can do. Have had some success trait the fear when down with damage when feared using reaper mode (adds chill and bleed). Have had thieves that were stalking me for easy kills suddenly down themselves on their first hit. But against the 1500 range I have nothing (that seems to include Rangers 1500 range rapid shots). Also have seen an increase in mirages who somehow manage to unleash all their skilss in one shot, seriously I run most times with combat log open and suddenly see it fill up with every mirage skill hitting me...insta kill. No class should be able to put out so much danmage as to 1-2 shot someone.

Get familiar with Flesh Wurm. It's your best friend in WvW, trust me. You can use it both defensively and offensively, it just takes some practice learning how/where to place it.

If I'm in a zerg and anticipating that we'll be engaging on a losing fight, I'll place my Wurm some where out of sight like on a hill or behind a wall to give myself a safety net. If I'm being attacked by a ranged player like a Deadeye or Soulbeast, I'll start running away from them while looking behind me summoning my Wurm. I can then instantly teleport to it as soon as it's summoned and I'll be right on top of them. Of course this doesn't always work, but it's also not the only way to use it offensively, I'm just giving an example of how to do so.

As has been stated by many people, Deadeye is just poorly designed and Necro has a hard time against ranged attackers. Although Corrosive Poison Cloud is an acceptable utility skill, there are far better things to take in it's place. Flesh Wurm may not block projectiles, but it can help you to close the gap or make quick escapes making it an extremely valuable skill for a class with no scaling defenses.

If you're a Reaper, a fun trick with Flesh Wurm is to summon the Wurm close to someone and pre-cast "Chilled to the Bone!" Since it has a lengthy cast time, you can begin the shout at a safe distance from your target and teleport to your Wurm, now within range of your target, just as the shout fully casts. Against average players it has a pretty high rate of success but takes a little juking and maneuvering against more skilled opponents. Still, it's something to keep in mind.

As a long time Necro who likes to float around solo, my rule of thumb is to always have an escape plan. Wurm is often a big part of that plan. It's especially useful in SMC where I can use it to teleport directly to the second or third floor, or on top of gates after they've opened.

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Turk.5460

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@nativity.3057 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:People try to tell how to fight against deadeye, but it's not like you have any time to fight. You run somewhere and you are dead before you can do anything. It's not like you get any signs than deadeye is close. Even if you see smokefield you can't just dodge random time and hope that deadeye backstab same time.

If the DE is using backstab they not necessarily Rifle specced. They can use d/p to stack stealth and they could always do this. DE does let you know a DE about because you get that MARK above your head. DJ from rifle in such a case is easier to avoid then is that backstab.

The way to counter that incoming malicious backstab is the same means one used to counter a backstab prior to DE. The consequences of failing to counter are worse but you DO have more warning , not less. One thing I like to do on my warrior when marked is rely an about face a lot , do not move in straight lines, use AOE and cleave. He still has to get close up and you do not necessarily have to SEE him to help mitigate that damage. You do not necessarily have to dodge that attack , but if you manage to turn around at the right time, or get weakness on the enemy it will hurt a lot less.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

a 20% modifier at that. 10% from iron sight, 10% from first malice stack.

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babazhook.6805

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@Turk.5460 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:People try to tell how to fight against deadeye, but it's not like you have any time to fight. You run somewhere and you are dead before you can do anything. It's not like you get any signs than deadeye is close. Even if you see smokefield you can't just dodge random time and hope that deadeye backstab same time.

If the DE is using backstab they not necessarily Rifle specced. They can use d/p to stack stealth and they could always do this. DE does let you know a DE about because you get that MARK above your head. DJ from rifle in such a case is easier to avoid then is that backstab.

The way to counter that incoming malicious backstab is the same means one used to counter a backstab prior to DE. The consequences of failing to counter are worse but you DO have more warning , not less. One thing I like to do on my warrior when marked is rely an about face a lot , do not move in straight lines, use AOE and cleave. He still has to get close up and you do not necessarily have to SEE him to help mitigate that damage. You do not necessarily have to dodge that attack , but if you manage to turn around at the right time, or get weakness on the enemy it will hurt a lot less.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

a 20% modifier at that. 10% from iron sight, 10% from first malice stack

Not a heck of a lot more then the mods one gets from CS or DA. Again DE is designed round more single target damage and again those mods do not work unless there a mark. If I was on a non DE build I lose no damage switching a target.

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