deadeye needs nerf.

[babazhook.6805]

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:here just an example of the Soulbeast one shot. A thread was started on this some time ago. These guys can kill a DE pretty quick even if the DE stealths. It harder for them to kill a dredevil because the daredevil better able to dodge. Soulbeasts I tend to see in WvW with this tend to use Smokescale to stealth.

https://clips.twitch.tv/TastyUninterestedSlothDatSheffy

This is a clip of Harsh Master in sPvP. You won't see a build quite like his in WvW simply because there's too much open space for a glass melee soulbeast (glass with both gear and traits) to be successful without getting melted horribly before it can close in with most targets. Harsh Master uses dagger/warhorn and greatsword for stealth stacking with the smokescale's smoke field before stalking a target on a node.That ele player probably was just slow. Maybe he should play soulbeast a week and stuff becomes a lot easier and he react quicker.

It does not matter if it Pvp. PvP does less damage overall due to foods ETC available in WvW. . It demonstrates that other buids can acheive the same burst. I am not going to search out such hits in WvW. I have been subjected to them and have seen people fall to them. (Chat was filled with people speaking of a one shout soul beast killing them all and reporting bursts as high as any DJ) Yes you better dodge that burst because stealth wont save you.

When you speak of being "melted" before they can close to range, that generally refers to group fights or taking on things like Necro/holo etc. The same weaknesses apply to DE trying to melee which is why so many stick to range.

Now as stated I am not really familiar with playing the Soulbeast build in question. I might well try to invest some time into it in the future . I DO have a rifle using warrior however that is built around damage in WvW. He does not have the survivability of the DE using stealth but he can pump out like burst which brings me to another point about The "Meta". On my second warrior, which is by definition a tank, I do not use HS as the heal. HS does not do a heck of a lot against the Burst specs. I find either to the limit or mending act better as heals. To the limit can often heal a full DJ taken and more (plus add two dodges) and Mending has a very low ICD with Condition clears. This guys role is to soak up damage and use On My mark and bloody roar to help burn off the Stealths of a DE. By design he is intended to work in a group and it quite effective hunting down a DE. If I was using "warrior meta" he would be much less effective which just reinforces the point. Do not complain about the DE if you insist you must play the meta.

None of this means I do not thing DE not in need of toning down. I do not thing such should be in the way of damage unless that tone down happens across the board for a number of professions. Damage is in line with what others can do when also factoring in having much lower health from the get go and being much flimsier then other professions. I HAVE stated and have done for some time that there needs to be a tweak to stealth stacking. It does not need to be major , it just a shave that would force a DE to use stealth more deliberately and give more time for others to react when the thief comes out of stealth.

[snh.7091]

Agree with the OP. While I bought this expansion solely for the Deadeye I deleted it after some time as it's just a no-skill class like the warrior. The only thing you gotta learn is to stack stealth properly and you're unkillable.

Adding a sniper class to an MMO is a very bad decision for the game's health. This specialization should be replaced with something else.

[Turk.5460]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@nativity.3057 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:People try to tell how to fight against deadeye, but it's not like you have any time to fight. You run somewhere and you are dead before you can do anything. It's not like you get any signs than deadeye is close. Even if you see smokefield you can't just dodge random time and hope that deadeye backstab same time.

If the DE is using backstab they not necessarily Rifle specced. They can use d/p to stack stealth and they could always do this. DE does let you know a DE about because you get that MARK above your head. DJ from rifle in such a case is easier to avoid then is that backstab.

The way to counter that incoming malicious backstab is the same means one used to counter a backstab prior to DE. The consequences of failing to counter are worse but you DO have more warning , not less. One thing I like to do on my warrior when marked is rely an about face a lot , do not move in straight lines, use AOE and cleave. He still has to get close up and you do not necessarily have to SEE him to help mitigate that damage. You do not necessarily have to dodge that attack , but if you manage to turn around at the right time, or get weakness on the enemy it will hurt a lot less.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

Then you would get the same damage from a regular backstab. Malicious only adds damage if you marked. if not it regular backstab damage.

except for core thieves to get 20k backstabs they need to blow almost all utilities (and slot utilities that boost damage). That means they have less access to stealth and need to combo smoke fields. Malicious backstab gets a free damage multiplier by just pressing F1, while having easy access to stealth via dodge mechanic.

a 20% modifier at that. 10% from iron sight, 10% from first malice stack

Not a heck of a lot more then the mods one gets from CS or DA. Again DE is designed round more single target damage and again those mods do not work unless there a mark. If I was on a non DE build I lose no damage switching a target.

While you are correct that it is single target and dependent on mark, it is however more than you can get out of DA right off the bat - DA only would give 4% as opposed to the 20% from DE. I'd say that is indeed a heck of a lot more mods. CS is already part of the build, anyway, so that's not really a comparable point.

@Inoki.6048 said:Agree with the OP. While I bought this expansion solely for the Deadeye I deleted it after some time as it's just a no-skill class like the warrior. The only thing you gotta learn is to stack stealth properly and you're unkillable.

Adding a sniper class to an MMO is a very bad decision for the game's health. This specialization should be replaced with something else.

If that's the only reason why you deleted your DE, then why not just make different builds that aren't no-skill? Perhaps ones that don't rely so much on Stealth? To the same effect you could play something like Hybrid Berserker for your enjoyment rather than the No-Skill Core/SpellB Warriors.

[LetoII.3782]

Once upon a time I watched an Anet Dev recoil in horror and say it'd never happen when asked about thief getting a rifle.

He must've forgot to tell Karl why before moving on

[Shadowcat.2680]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:here just an example of the Soulbeast one shot. A thread was started on this some time ago. These guys can kill a DE pretty quick even if the DE stealths. It harder for them to kill a dredevil because the daredevil better able to dodge. Soulbeasts I tend to see in WvW with this tend to use Smokescale to stealth.

https://clips.twitch.tv/TastyUninterestedSlothDatSheffy

This is a clip of Harsh Master in sPvP. You won't see a build quite like his in WvW simply because there's too much open space for a glass melee soulbeast (glass with both gear and traits) to be successful without getting melted horribly before it can close in with most targets. Harsh Master uses dagger/warhorn and greatsword for stealth stacking with the smokescale's smoke field before stalking a target on a node.That ele player probably was just slow. Maybe he should play soulbeast a week and stuff becomes a lot easier and he react quicker.

It does not matter if it Pvp. PvP does less damage overall due to foods ETC available in WvW. . It demonstrates that other buids can acheive the same burst. I am not going to search out such hits in WvW. I have been subjected to them and have seen people fall to them. (Chat was filled with people speaking of a one shout soul beast killing them all and reporting bursts as high as any DJ) Yes you better dodge that burst because stealth wont save you.

When you speak of being "melted" before they can close to range, that generally refers to group fights or taking on things like Necro/holo etc. The same weaknesses apply to DE trying to melee which is why so many stick to range.

I commented about that particular clip simply because it's been discussed at length in sPvP threads. If you watch closely toward the beginning of the clip, you can see Harsh Master near the blue portal. And after the ele teleports to the top of the cliff, the camera pans past Harsh Master's smokescale smoke field for a brief instant. Of course these things are easy to notice when watching a vid vs being the player yourself, but Harsh Master is able to wait out the ele going through evades and a teleport because of how much stealth stacking greatsword + dagger/wh can pull off (3 leap finishers and 1 blast finisher when 2 of the leap finishers grant quickness).

I didn't mean group fights when I said it'd have trouble closing in. I meant the lower stealth duration from soulbeasts in WvW not using dagger 3 (an ammo skill leap finisher granting quickness) for more stealth stacking before stalking a target for the one-shot. Mainhand dagger is subpar to sword or greatsword in competitive modes and only ever sees use for that stealth stacking. In WvW, hiding the smokescale's smoke field around a corner will rarely escape a capable enemy's notice with so much open terrain. Harsh Master's build dies if sneezed at and cannot easily vanish back into stealth. It can only re-stealth briefly if it traits Lesser Call of the Wild for its blast finisher, assuming the soulbeast manages to drop out of beastmode and pet swaps after using the smokescale's f2.

Such a build can do as much damage as deadeye in a single burst (if not more) but it doesn't have the ability to disengage and immediately try again if its big hit (worldly impact) fails. It might hope to finish an enemy off with maul (and the maul will hurt like kitten too), but maul has one of the most recognizable telegraphs of any ranger weapon skill, and the build won't be able to survive for long while trying to go toe to toe in melee range with something dealing damage of its own.

[babazhook.6805]

While you are correct that it is single target and dependent on mark, it is however more than you can get out of DA right off the bat - DA only would give 4% as opposed to the 20% from DE. I'd say that is indeed a heck of a lot more mods. CS is already part of the build, anyway, so that's not really a comparable point.

Well let us ignore the DA traitline given you not using it in the build.

Take DD over DE. Assume the prupose here is just that initial single strike damage wherein the target has no idea he to be attacked.

In the Case of the DE you do this my an attack immediately after a mark garnering 10 percent damage from iron sight and 10 percent from the mark. You stacked stealth prior to engaging and had to be close enough to target so that you could get that strike in using footspeed alone.

The DD on the other hand traits Havoc Mastery and Bounding. He has stacked stealth using bounding garnering a 10 percent bonus from Bounding dodger. While dodgers bonus is only 4 seconds your time to use mark and strike before the mark light goes on is less then that. DD also can use steal port to engage from a greater distance. You re talking about 3 percent difference in that initial strike.

[Caedmon.6798]

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:People try to tell how to fight against deadeye, but it's not like you have any time to fight. You run somewhere and you are dead before you can do anything. It's not like you get any signs than deadeye is close. Even if you see smokefield you can't just dodge random time and hope that deadeye backstab same time.

If the DE is using backstab they not necessarily Rifle specced. They can use d/p to stack stealth and they could always do this. DE does let you know a DE about because you get that MARK above your head. DJ from rifle in such a case is easier to avoid then is that backstab.

The way to counter that incoming malicious backstab is the same means one used to counter a backstab prior to DE. The consequences of failing to counter are worse but you DO have more warning , not less. One thing I like to do on my warrior when marked is rely an about face a lot , do not move in straight lines, use AOE and cleave. He still has to get close up and you do not necessarily have to SEE him to help mitigate that damage. You do not necessarily have to dodge that attack , but if you manage to turn around at the right time, or get weakness on the enemy it will hurt a lot less.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

It's cus of the 10% dmg modifier on malicious backstab Per malice,which imo is too much.Thats 70% more dmg on stab with full malice,and theres tons of other ways to boost that dmg.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Trait "Hidden thief"+ Trait "be quick or be killed" + the power signet, you don't need more; death's judgement + spam 3, dead in <2sec.

[Swagger.1459]

I use to play a game where the “thief” class could be permanently invisible until engaging in combat... and then fall back to being invisible once out of combat... Somehow, fights ended up being way more manageable, and more fun, for all parties involved... go figure.

Edit- and there also happened to be fully fleshed out stealth and counter stealth systems... and one where any class could gain access to a certain level of stealth mechanics, just not as great as the “thief” class.

[MedievalThings.5417]

@"Swagger.1459" said:I use to play a game where the “thief” class could be permanently invisible until engaging in combat... and then fall back to being invisible once out of combat... Somehow, fights ended up being way more manageable, and more fun, for all parties involved... go figure.

Edit- and there also happened to be fully fleshed out stealth and counter stealth systems... and one where any class could gain access to a certain level of stealth mechanics, just not as great as the “thief” class.

I actually prefer the style from DAoC, which may be what (or like what) you are thinking of. Perma-stealth with no skill usage necessary to maintain it, although standing directly on top of someone stealthed, you could see them, and some classes could trait to make the "see" window larger. Also, aoe damage would knock players out of stealth too. I could see that working in GW2. Just add perma-stealth, allow players to see stealthers if they walk through them, and maybe a utility or two that allows stealthing while in combat like we have. Too much aoe/cleave to make damage break stealth in this game though. Also, I never really get why Anet thinks stealth should increase movement speed in this game? If you are trying to be stealthy, you should not be moving faster than all the noisy, visible people around you. /shrug

[Turk.5460]

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:People try to tell how to fight against deadeye, but it's not like you have any time to fight. You run somewhere and you are dead before you can do anything. It's not like you get any signs than deadeye is close. Even if you see smokefield you can't just dodge random time and hope that deadeye backstab same time.

If the DE is using backstab they not necessarily Rifle specced. They can use d/p to stack stealth and they could always do this. DE does let you know a DE about because you get that MARK above your head. DJ from rifle in such a case is easier to avoid then is that backstab.

The way to counter that incoming malicious backstab is the same means one used to counter a backstab prior to DE. The consequences of failing to counter are worse but you DO have more warning , not less. One thing I like to do on my warrior when marked is rely an about face a lot , do not move in straight lines, use AOE and cleave. He still has to get close up and you do not necessarily have to SEE him to help mitigate that damage. You do not necessarily have to dodge that attack , but if you manage to turn around at the right time, or get weakness on the enemy it will hurt a lot less.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

It's cus of the 10% dmg modifier on malicious backstab Per malice,which imo is too much.Thats 70% more dmg on stab with full malice,and theres tons of other ways to boost that dmg.

I mean he did mention without any mark.

[Caedmon.6798]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:People try to tell how to fight against deadeye, but it's not like you have any time to fight. You run somewhere and you are dead before you can do anything. It's not like you get any signs than deadeye is close. Even if you see smokefield you can't just dodge random time and hope that deadeye backstab same time.

If the DE is using backstab they not necessarily Rifle specced. They can use d/p to stack stealth and they could always do this. DE does let you know a DE about because you get that MARK above your head. DJ from rifle in such a case is easier to avoid then is that backstab.

The way to counter that incoming malicious backstab is the same means one used to counter a backstab prior to DE. The consequences of failing to counter are worse but you DO have more warning , not less. One thing I like to do on my warrior when marked is rely an about face a lot , do not move in straight lines, use AOE and cleave. He still has to get close up and you do not necessarily have to SEE him to help mitigate that damage. You do not necessarily have to dodge that attack , but if you manage to turn around at the right time, or get weakness on the enemy it will hurt a lot less.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

It's cus of the 10% dmg modifier on malicious backstab Per malice,which imo is too much.Thats 70% more dmg on stab with full malice,and theres tons of other ways to boost that dmg.

I mean he did mention

without any mark

.

Yeah but i mean in general,even while im playing it i think the 10% per malice is just too much.The nerfs from today wont rlly hurt de in anyway either.

[Turk.5460]

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:People try to tell how to fight against deadeye, but it's not like you have any time to fight. You run somewhere and you are dead before you can do anything. It's not like you get any signs than deadeye is close. Even if you see smokefield you can't just dodge random time and hope that deadeye backstab same time.

If the DE is using backstab they not necessarily Rifle specced. They can use d/p to stack stealth and they could always do this. DE does let you know a DE about because you get that MARK above your head. DJ from rifle in such a case is easier to avoid then is that backstab.

The way to counter that incoming malicious backstab is the same means one used to counter a backstab prior to DE. The consequences of failing to counter are worse but you DO have more warning , not less. One thing I like to do on my warrior when marked is rely an about face a lot , do not move in straight lines, use AOE and cleave. He still has to get close up and you do not necessarily have to SEE him to help mitigate that damage. You do not necessarily have to dodge that attack , but if you manage to turn around at the right time, or get weakness on the enemy it will hurt a lot less.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

It's cus of the 10% dmg modifier on malicious backstab Per malice,which imo is too much.Thats 70% more dmg on stab with full malice,and theres tons of other ways to boost that dmg.

I mean he did mention

without any mark

.

...The nerfs from today wont rlly hurt de in anyway either.

It really will only hurt DE's ability to sustain damage on Keep/Tower Lords...kinda....not really.

[Caedmon.6798]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:People try to tell how to fight against deadeye, but it's not like you have any time to fight. You run somewhere and you are dead before you can do anything. It's not like you get any signs than deadeye is close. Even if you see smokefield you can't just dodge random time and hope that deadeye backstab same time.

If the DE is using backstab they not necessarily Rifle specced. They can use d/p to stack stealth and they could always do this. DE does let you know a DE about because you get that MARK above your head. DJ from rifle in such a case is easier to avoid then is that backstab.

The way to counter that incoming malicious backstab is the same means one used to counter a backstab prior to DE. The consequences of failing to counter are worse but you DO have more warning , not less. One thing I like to do on my warrior when marked is rely an about face a lot , do not move in straight lines, use AOE and cleave. He still has to get close up and you do not necessarily have to SEE him to help mitigate that damage. You do not necessarily have to dodge that attack , but if you manage to turn around at the right time, or get weakness on the enemy it will hurt a lot less.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

It's cus of the 10% dmg modifier on malicious backstab Per malice,which imo is too much.Thats 70% more dmg on stab with full malice,and theres tons of other ways to boost that dmg.

I mean he did mention

without any mark

.

...The nerfs from today wont rlly hurt de in anyway either.

It really will only hurt DE's ability to sustain damage on Keep/Tower Lords...kinda....not really.

Meh,the flow is a bit slower but it's still all the same,not much changed.

[Kayowin.9217]

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:People try to tell how to fight against deadeye, but it's not like you have any time to fight. You run somewhere and you are dead before you can do anything. It's not like you get any signs than deadeye is close. Even if you see smokefield you can't just dodge random time and hope that deadeye backstab same time.

If the DE is using backstab they not necessarily Rifle specced. They can use d/p to stack stealth and they could always do this. DE does let you know a DE about because you get that MARK above your head. DJ from rifle in such a case is easier to avoid then is that backstab.

The way to counter that incoming malicious backstab is the same means one used to counter a backstab prior to DE. The consequences of failing to counter are worse but you DO have more warning , not less. One thing I like to do on my warrior when marked is rely an about face a lot , do not move in straight lines, use AOE and cleave. He still has to get close up and you do not necessarily have to SEE him to help mitigate that damage. You do not necessarily have to dodge that attack , but if you manage to turn around at the right time, or get weakness on the enemy it will hurt a lot less.

I get +20k malicious backstabs without any mark.

It's cus of the 10% dmg modifier on malicious backstab Per malice,which imo is too much.Thats 70% more dmg on stab with full malice,and theres tons of other ways to boost that dmg.

I mean he did mention

without any mark

.

Yeah but i mean in general,even while im playing it i think the 10% per malice is just too much.The nerfs from today wont rlly hurt de in anyway either.

It hurts the DE's that use rifle and don't rely on MB or DJ more than the current meta. Funny thing is the patch will encourage more of what people complain about. (Other than the root issues with stealth) DJ's and MB's for all.

[Burnfall.9573]

@LetoII.3782 said:Once upon a time I watched an Anet Dev recoil in horror and say it'd never happen when asked about thief getting a rifle.

He must've forgot to tell Karl why before moving on

[Solaris.2489]

11k instant DJ from stealth, 24k backstab with built up malice from stealth and worst of all - you can camp with 10 people in a keep, put stealth disruptor traps everywhere and the deadeye can run around in there for 1h with perma stealth for a good moment to solo the lord WITH ZERO COUNTERPLAY!!

[Noha.3749]

Deadeyes just got dumped on with their trippletap spam. To deal same(+a a bit extra) damage they need to play with trickery instead of SE. So they cant "permastealth" and deal the same amount of damage anymore.

I think their damage is fine but the stealth upkeep is not. They should have nerfed revealremove/stealth instead of its damage upkeep.

[rng.1024]

They really ought to give the thief 3 seconds of unblockable upon steal (which when traited has a 20 sec cooldown) instead of on weapon skills (which used to be how the profession handled it). So when you got marked, you knew there was a 3 sec window where death's judgement would be unblockable, albeit at slightly lower damage should the deadeye choose to use it then. Counter play.

[Offair.2563]

Simply give every class/build access to perma stealth with 20k+ dmg skills as its fuuuuuuuuun.

[Salshazar.7023]

I agree that the malicious backstabs with the power signet are a big problem, because there's just no tell on it.However the rifle, even with permanent stealth, is certainly not an offender and anyone who has issues with it needs to learn to play.Pretty much every skill on the rifle, especially deaths judgement, has an obvious tell, not only visually but auditory also, which allows you to just dodge it or use a cool down to soak its damage. If you get hit by a death judgement while not suffering CC then you need to rethink your world vs world build and probably your play Style.The moment the Deadeye shows his face, dodge and burst him back. If the deadeye is any threat in the first place, he will not have the defensive stats to survive a well coordinated counter burst. This works especially well if you combine the burst with a stun.I can do this on my daredevil, my warrior, my power mesmer and even my elementalist.Just do what every thief player in a PVP environment has to do in order to be viable and learn what other classes are capable of and where their weaknesses lie and you can dispatch them very easily.But I guess it is easier to just get on the forums and QQ in order to vent some of that frustration, than to actually learn how to play and become a better player... isn't that right?

[babazhook.6805]

@"Salshazar.7023" said:I agree that the malicious backstabs with the power signet are a big problem, because there's just no tell on it.However the rifle, even with permanent stealth, is certainly not an offender and anyone who has issues with it needs to learn to play.Pretty much every skill on the rifle, especially deaths judgement, has an obvious tell, not only visually but auditory also, which allows you to just dodge it or use a cool down to soak its damage. If you get hit by a death judgement while not suffering CC then you need to rethink your world vs world build and probably your play Style.The moment the Deadeye shows his face, dodge and burst him back. If the deadeye is any threat in the first place, he will not have the defensive stats to survive a well coordinated counter burst. This works especially well if you combine the burst with a stun.I can do this on my daredevil, my warrior, my power mesmer and even my elementalist.Just do what every thief player in a PVP environment has to do in order to be viable and learn what other classes are capable of and where their weaknesses lie and you can dispatch them very easily.But I guess it is easier to just get on the forums and QQ in order to vent some of that frustration, than to actually learn how to play and become a better player... isn't that right?

Yep. I do not play elementalist or mesmer to any great degree but the DE is countered quite effectively by Warrior and Daredevil. The ranger can do this very well too. Rifle is not an issue from the damage perspective. Nor did the dagger AA need a nerf.

The single biggest issue is stealth stacking, nothing more and while I do not think the fix "remove stealth on dodge" as malicious backstab users do not stealth in this manner , a slight shave to the seconds in stealth one could gain via stacking multiple stealths in a row was all that was needed.

[LetoII.3782]

Yeah guys, he's only 1500 range and was visible for almost a second, git gud

[Traveller.7496]

I've started to Alt+F4 out rather than give these guys the satisfaction to stomp.

[Turk.5460]

@Traveller.7496 said:I've started to Alt+F4 out rather than give these guys the satisfaction to stomp.

Oooooh...bad move. Seeing an alt-f4 is FAR more satisfying than a stomp.