Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

[Silence.3702]

It's a ridiculously powerful class with stunbreak on dodge,good mobility,hard to target, very good damage and condition,alot of pressure and makes any class look weakand i just started !

so lets nerf spiteful spirit

[Crinn.7864]

Stunbreak on dodge is irrelevant. The issue is the ability to dodge while stunned regardless of whether it stunbreaks or not. Being able to dodge without interrupting casting is also a huge problem.

[Megametzler.5729]

@incisorr.9502 said:

@MyPuppy.8970 said:How Can you die 1v1 as a condi mirage? Worst Comes to worst, reset, rince & repeat.(...)ITT: low elo non-mesmer players talking about a class they don't understand and blaming their shortcomings on the game instead themselves(...)

Says the dude who didn't know the duration of MC... sorry, I can't forget it!

€: Since the topic expanded:

Make MC so that it does not work while stunned. Still good because works while immobilized and can cover attacks.

Make EM so that it is castable while stunned. Get rid of the exhaustion crap. Leave IH as it is. Maybe adjust both for balancing (cleanse 2 condis or something? Get rid of some of the clone's reductions?) over time.

This way condi mirage has to decide between being tanky and able to ignore stuns (to some degree) or do more condi damage. Actually decide between significant changes.

But let's nerf weaver evade frames first!

[Gaile Gray.6029]

There were several feedback threads about the Condi Mirage. In order to collate feedback in the most meaningful way, we've merged those threads into this one. Please share your thoughts here. (Please do not create yet another thread.)

[Silence.3702]

Hello,well. since we got your attention, i would try to elaborate as short as i can yet adress the problems that we mainly suffer from.

First of all the fact that Mirage can dodge while being stunned is a trait that provides huge bonus to the class , its unfair advantage and a mirage should have the same evade everyone has.

As well as its conditions, it can apply an immense amount of conditions on you very quickly with very little drawback, rendering it very difficult to fight against

A mirage by default has the higher ground and advantage by simply creating clones. you give it better offensive roatation, cleanses and tools to stay alive and it's gonna make any class look hopeless against it

[Huskyboy.1053]

There's really one problem with Mirage that exists with many elite specs: attack and defend at the same time. See below for what I mean. Mirage Cloak being the offender here. If Mirage Cloak had a looooooong ICD then it wouldn't be so annoying. Stealth, teleport, target break, dodge turns into invuln, all of that put together is the problem. Ideally Mirage damage would just take a nosedive since if we make Mirage way easier to hit then it loses what makes Mesmer generally distinct from other classes.

[Ithilwen.1529]

The entire point of "Mirage" is that it's not really there... attacks go through it." To remove this ability would be to abrogate the theme of the class even more thoroughly than was done with Chronomancer. ( By nerfing alacrity and distributing it to other classes )

I think that attempting to make Mesmer into a brawler is a mistake. A light armor class needs to be OP just to survive close combat. Besides.. Mesmer is a sabotage and trickery profession , not a martial artist. A d/d ele has skills and a theme suitable to close combat. A Mesmer does not.

I would also point out that numerous posters have expressed that they simply hate Mesmer and want to see it crippled.

[StabbersTheThird.6053]

Going to say no. When I can load up whatever I feel like on Mirage and randomly press buttons and still kill players consistently without much stress, there is a problem. You can't defend "can dodge while stunned without taking a trait" and "can cast while dodging without taking a trait" when Mesmer also has "create a clone when you dodge" and "get an enhanced auto when you dodge" and "reflect projectiles when you dodge". Read that for a moment. Think about it. And yes I say Mesmer/Mirage interchangeable because I don't care.

As long as Mirage can dodge whenever they want and cast whatever they want during a dodge, they'll be far stronger than they can be nerfed down to. Sticking "can dodge while stunned" onto the "stunbreak when you dodge" trait would FIX Mirage. One hit. Done. Mirage will still be strong, but at the least we can do SOMETHING. It's pretty ridiculous that Mesmer's core identity isn't "make clones" it is instead "do whatever you want whenever". Core Mesmer has, almost, too much stunbreak, dodge, teleportation, and target break. It's hard to pin down a Mesmer, it's basically impossible to pin down a Mirage. Being punished by a player for playing CORRECTLY and SUCCESSFULLY should not be an identity.

Say whatever you want here. F1, F2, F3, F4, and Dodge can be used at any point of any action or inaction. That's REALLY bad for pvp balance. I get Anet put this on the back-back-back burner, but still.

Also to clarify idgaf if you're Power Mirage. You're playing a fairly difficult build and playstyle that has high reward, good for you I respect that. Condi Mirage has so much freedom to make mistakes and still remain unpunished while dishing out really good burst damage and nutty sustained damage. That's a no-no.

[Arlette.9684]

Thank's for the merge Gaile. My overly honest opinion on the matter of all class balance threads for that matter is:

The bulk of players on the forum have either extreme views of class balance or ones that are completely disconnected from reality. It is my FIRM belief, that The Systems team, would do well to take every piece of feedback in regards to class balance (regardless of class in question) with a grain of salt the size of Texas. None of us like to lose, so in our blind rage, we tend to spew hate towards this or that class (I saw 3 separate threads, for 3 separate classes demanding nerfs, JUST TODAY), without really knowing what prompted said hate. I blame the still rather limited (it's gotten much better over the years) combat log, that doesn't provide a comprehensive enough picture to draw conclussions, as well as player ignorance that stems from the rather unintuitive way the game teaches you, about game and class mechanics.

[Dharma.9123]

Mirage mesmer just have way TOO muchPower mirage is okay. High rish - high reward.Condi mesmer in nightmare in sPvP right now.High burst damage/high pressure damage/highest mobility in game/target break/invis (also while cast spell)/non stop clone generating/good offense and good defensive/you cant run away/counters all single target builds without cleave/ even if you have cleave counters if you dont have A LOT condi cleanse.

In meta now only ONE counter - core guardian. Because it have cleave and best condi cleanse. And even then guardian can lose in 1v1.Even spellbreaker with a lot condi cleanse and resistance cant win mirage 1v1, because mesmer ALWAYS can leave fight when wants it.

This class have too much. Way to much to be balanced.

Okay. Mesmer is illusionist/tricky class what make enemy angry. Okay. We all understund. But when then tricky class have so much damage?Next one - conditionsConfusion - you cant cast skills, if only it is not condi cleaning. (I can play around that. Now problem. Good mechanic)Tornment - you cant run, or will die (Okay. I can play against it. No problem. Interesting)BLIND/BLEEDING/BURNING STACKING OVER AND OVER when you cant cast skills and cant run - ISNT FUN

Thank you!

[Faffin.6741]

I play power Soulbeast like Trevor and tried out the Shorts Mirage build. It might be I need way more practice, but it didn't seem OP and fun like scourge was back in the day, and it was way riskier. Maybe I've worked up the ranks beyond where that can happen.

What I do note though is that Mesmers are the hardest class to deal with on my Ranger, and it must be somewhat harder for Trevor if he's running Berserker.

[jportell.2197]

@Dharma.9123 said:Mirage mesmer just have way TOO muchPower mirage is okay. High rish - high reward.Condi mesmer in nightmare in sPvP right now.High burst damage/high pressure damage/highest mobility in game/target break/invis (also while cast spell)/non stop clone generating/good offense and good defensive/you cant run away/counters all single target builds without cleave/ even if you have cleave counters if you dont have A LOT condi cleanse.

In meta now only ONE counter - core guardian. Because it have cleave and best condi cleanse. And even then guardian can lose in 1v1.Even spellbreaker with a lot condi cleanse and resistance cant win mirage 1v1, because mesmer ALWAYS can leave fight when wants it.

This class have too much. Way to much to be balanced.

Okay. Mesmer is illusionist/tricky class what make enemy angry. Okay. We all understund. But when then tricky class have so much damage?Next one - conditionsConfusion - you cant cast skills, if only it is not condi cleaning. (I can play around that. Now problem. Good mechanic)Tornment - you cant run, or will die (Okay. I can play against it. No problem. Interesting)BLIND/BLEEDING/BURNING STACKING OVER AND OVER when you cant cast skills and cant run - ISNT FUN

Thank you!

Aside from staff mesmer has access to burning only through torch.

Mesmer using staff is actually more vulnerable than sword. And doesn't have access to target breaking.

Also a little hint for everyone complaining about target breaking. The way the game works, if you tab target right after the mesmer uses axe 3 or illusionary ambush, the game will retarget to the mesmer. As long as you have the key bound to target nearest player. Works for me

[Arlette.9684]

@Faffin.6741 said:I play power Soulbeast like Trevor and tried out the Shorts Mirage build. It might be I need way more practice, but it didn't seem OP and fun like scourge was back in the day, and it was way riskier. Maybe I've worked up the ranks beyond where that can happen.

What I do note though is that Mesmers are the hardest class to deal with on my Ranger, and it must be somewhat harder for Trevor if he's running Berserker.

Mirage stomps Ranger in all its forms, it's just how it is. I have been on the receiving end of it and I understand the sense of helplessness. I still believe Trevor has it in him to look past that and accept it as a counter put there as a check and balance, much like Core Guard/Holo/Warr(to an extent) is there to check Mesmer :wink:

Edit: @jportell.2197 Who on Earth still uses Tab targeting? Point the cursor at the obvious NON-clone and keep doing whatever it was, you were doing before the detarget, sheesh.

[otto.5684]

@Huskyboy.1053 the idea of my list is what builds can do well/okay against mirage, cuz the thread direction was that mirage is industrucable.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Arlette.9684 said:

@Faffin.6741 said:I play power Soulbeast like Trevor and tried out the Shorts Mirage build. It might be I need way more practice, but it didn't seem OP and fun like scourge was back in the day, and it was way riskier. Maybe I've worked up the ranks beyond where that can happen.

What I do note though is that Mesmers are the hardest class to deal with on my Ranger, and it must be somewhat harder for Trevor if he's running Berserker.

Mirage stomps Ranger in all its forms, it's just how it is. I have been on the receiving end of it and I understand the sense of helplessness. I still believe Trevor has it in him to look past that and accept it as a counter put there as a check and balance, much like Core Guard/Holo/Warr(to an extent) is there to check Mesmer :wink:

Edit: @jportell.2197 Who on Earth still uses Tab targeting? Point the cursor at the obvious NON-clone and keep doing whatever it was, you were doing before the detarget, sheesh.

Indeed

@Faffin.6741 I did not write a thread complaining about Condi Mirage after playing against it. I wrote a thread telling a story about my experience playing as the Condi Mirage. There is a big difference. I would also like to note that not a single mention of a nerf was discussed in that thread from myself or anyone else posting.

[jportell.2197]

@Arlette.9684 said:

@Faffin.6741 said:I play power Soulbeast like Trevor and tried out the Shorts Mirage build. It might be I need way more practice, but it didn't seem OP and fun like scourge was back in the day, and it was way riskier. Maybe I've worked up the ranks beyond where that can happen.

What I do note though is that Mesmers are the hardest class to deal with on my Ranger, and it must be somewhat harder for Trevor if he's running Berserker.

Mirage stomps Ranger in all its forms, it's just how it is. I have been on the receiving end of it and I understand the sense of helplessness. I still believe Trevor has it in him to look past that and accept it as a counter put there as a check and balance, much like Core Guard/Holo/Warr(to an extent) is there to check Mesmer :wink:

Edit: @jportell.2197 Who on Earth still uses Tab targeting? Point the cursor at the obvious NON-clone and keep doing whatever it was, you were doing before the detarget, sheesh.

The people who are griping about mirage I'm sure use tab targeting. We are getting so many of these complaint threads it's ridiculous.

[Amaranthe.3578]

The problem players are having with the Mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it doesnt work out as well is does for them in a regular mid-fight.The Mirage is a duelist and is extremely fragile when caught with his pants down without an evade....you suggest to take away his dueling capability and leave him with what....exactly?

[Aza.2105]

@Amaranthe.3578 said:The problem players are having with Mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it doesnt work out quite so fantastic is does for them in a regular mid-fight.The Mirage is a duelist and is extremely fragile when caught with his pants down....you suggest to take away his dueling capability and leave him with what....exactly?

They are not fragile. The best form of tanking is not getting hit at all. And mesmer is master of not taking direct damage. Don't pretend like you don't know why they don't. With that said, even when the tankiest class specs for max toughness or health and purposely takes every defensive type skill and trait. They will melt in seconds. Ultimately, Condi Mesmers problem is just a reflection of bigger problems going on with the game itself. Damage is too high overall in pvp, boons are too abundant.

[Amaranthe.3578]

@Aza.2105 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:The problem players are having with Mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it doesnt work out quite so fantastic is does for them in a regular mid-fight.The Mirage is a duelist and is extremely fragile when caught with his pants down....you suggest to take away his dueling capability and leave him with what....exactly?

They are not fragile. The best form of tanking is not getting hit at all. And mesmer is master of not taking direct damage. Don't pretend like you don't know why they don't. With that said, even when the tankiest class specs for max toughness or health and purposely takes every defensive type skill and trait. They will melt in seconds. Ultimately, Condi Mesmers problem is just a reflection of bigger problems going on with the game itself. Damage is too high overall in pvp, boons are too abundant.

I still stay behind what I said. They have evades but are fragile....similar to thieves.Im not going to claim to know much since I only play at gold 1-2 but I am not seeing an over representation of mirages...if anything the most popular class I see is necro by far.I can also say that as a mirage I saw a huge difference from unranked to silver to gold like I didnt with other classes, in silver especially people constantly attack my clones and cuss and me - this doenst happen at gold at all.

[Fearless.3569]

First up I want to start out as I'm new to the game. I plays Ranger I'm thinking it's going to be my main. I'm trying to get into PvP over here. I'm rank 19 almost to rank 20 to start doing Ranked matches.So now to the point. In matches I'm finding fighting against Mirages a impossible battle so far. Much of it is due to my skills. Yes I know. However I must ask the players. How do yall counter and kill Mirages?

They seem to have every thing from stealth, to damage that I can't keep up with, while being super tanky. Most of my attack don't connect. And when that do connect it's like I'm hitting a brick wall. It's seems that I can't have enough dodges or cleanses to deal with their damage. And after all of that if I start getting them low they just disappear.

Please help me!

[Amaranthe.3578]

Start with attacking the actual Mirage and not his clones. The best and pretty much the only way is to log on to a mirage and see which skills he has so you can learn what to expect.

[Jaka.3182]

I play core ranger and dh and I m at g3-plat1 division and can only tell you from my perspective. I cant beat them. I avoid them, if mirage focus me I am dead. Either he is invul., stealth or there is hundreds of illusions and all is just a complete blur. Mostly all I do is searching for target until I m dead or I just wait till they kill me and I try to avoid them even more. "Fighting" a mirage is something that shouldn't be called pvp at all. All you do is hitting clones or an invuln. blur while whole screen is exploding around you dealing constant condi dmg. There is no actual fighting there. But if you somehow beat them to low morale, they will simply port/blink/whatever to safety because they are loaded with getaway skills. And no one can follow, specially not my core ranger or dh.If you play pof2win specs you ll be better of as they are also broken just not that much.

[Megametzler.5729]

@Amaranthe.3578 said:The problem players are having with the Mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it doesnt work out as well is does for them in a regular mid-fight.The Mirage is a duelist and is extremely fragile when caught with his pants down without an evade....you suggest to take away his dueling capability and leave him with what....exactly?

The problem players are having playing mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it works out and they do tons of damage.The mirage is a duelist and is not fragile at all when caught without evades - they have plenty of other disengaging tools like teleports, on demand stealth, portal and more. If they fuck up, hardly any class can stop them from disengaging. Core guard for example only has 2 gap closers, Sword 2 usually being used in fight for blind and symbol. That is what makes it high reward, low risk. I think mesmer should have to choose between high sustain and high damage in their traitlines - the split I mentioned above would be my spontaneous idea. Doesn't address the various teleports, but I might be okay with those if they tune other things.

And while I usually only play power mesmer from time to time (until the CS nerf lol), I did try condi mirage a bit in Plat. Without any training, any muscle memory - and I did way too good. The same only worked with scourge a couple of months ago - well, I admit, that was even easier. :lol:

Because I might be developing some kind of fetish here: Yes, they should tune down holo, spellbreaker and stuff as well. Don't worry, I am not only complaining about mirage. :smile: These classes limit build diversity extremely. When did we have a condi build being strong that was not scourge or mirage...?

[Meteor.3720]

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:The entire point of "Mirage" is that it's not really there... attacks go through it." To remove this ability would be to abrogate the theme of the class even more thoroughly than was done with Chronomancer. ( By nerfing alacrity and distributing it to other classes )

I think that attempting to make Mesmer into a brawler is a mistake. A light armor class needs to be OP just to survive close combat. Besides.. Mesmer is a sabotage and trickery profession , not a martial artist. A d/d ele has skills and a theme suitable to close combat. A Mesmer does not.

I would also point out that numerous posters have expressed that they simply hate Mesmer and want to see it crippled.

You're right that is the "theme" of mirage, as well as generally being hard to distinguish from the clones (the one dodging always gave away who was real when the clones stood still).That does not mean that the "theme" isn't broken or a bad idea in general, nor that it shouldn't be changed. The fact it can dodge whilst stunned and casting other skills (even without elusive mind which is thoroughly nerfed) is just a bad mechanic, broken, and should be changed.

For example, what about keeping the ambush and mirage cloak aspect of mirage, but removing the ability to dodge whilst stunned/ casting skills. That still keeps in line with the "theme" of hard to differentiate from clones, still gives dodge a unique mechanic, doesn't really affect pve much, and will have a much healthier impact on pvp.

[Amaranthe.3578]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:The problem players are having with the Mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it doesnt work out as well is does for them in a regular mid-fight.The Mirage is a duelist and is extremely fragile when caught with his pants down without an evade....you suggest to take away his dueling capability and leave him with what....exactly?

The problem players are having playing mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it works out and they do tons of damage.The mirage is a duelist and is not fragile at all when caught without evades - they have plenty of other disengaging tools like teleports, on demand stealth, portal and more. If they kitten up, hardly any class can stop them from disengaging. Core guard for example only has 2 gap closers, Sword 2 usually being used in fight for blind and symbol. That is what makes it high reward, low risk. I think mesmer should have to choose between high sustain and high damage in their traitlines - the split I mentioned above would be my spontaneous idea. Doesn't address the various teleports, but I might be okay with those if they tune other things.

And while I usually only play power mesmer from time to time (until the CS nerf lol), I did try condi mirage a bit in Plat. Without any training, any muscle memory - and I did way too good. The same only worked with scourge a couple of months ago - well, I admit, that was even easier. :lol:

Because I might be developing some kind of fetish here: Yes, they should tune down holo, spellbreaker and stuff as well. Don't worry, I am not only complaining about mirage. :smile: These classes limit build diversity extremely. When did we have a condi build being strong that was not scourge or mirage...?

To my mind the meaning of fragile is something that takes a lot of damage when you hit it...which is exactly the case with mirage.By your meaning thieves are not fragile because they have lots of evade and disengage potential.