Mirage/mesmer is OP?

[Carighan.6758]

I'd argue for 1v1 combat, Mirage is indeed overpowered.

The main issue however, to me, is less our individual power, but two issues which are game-wide and just happen to meet on this character:

• First, conditions as a whole need a serious look. They should be far far far less frequent, but in return more potent. Getting afflicted with say, Torment, should make you consider standing still, for a single stack. Because it'd be lethal if you move. However if you say cleanse it, you won't see it again for a while. In turn, if something you applied gets cleansed, you know the cleanse won't be back soon, either.
• Second, balancing a MMORPG for 1v1 is a laughable prospect. And I mean this. It's entirely utopian, and anyone who expects it should genuinely - to avoid future disappointment - seek the door. You won't find happiness because that's not how class-based games work. Period. However on a more serious note, at least it should be balanced for something else then, say mass-combat. DAoC made that work, and WvW is clearly inspired by RvR while missing all the parts which actually made it work (Darkness Falls, slow sieges, relics as motivation for PvE players to defend, sparse class setups to enforce meshing, etc). Could it be balanced for, say, 20v20? Sure. Though for real balance you need to plan for sides to be as large or larger than the effective number of player classes, which should be ~20-30 in GW2 once you include all frequently used specs.

[viquing.8254]

@"Brighteluden.2974" said:When a class is being viewed as OP by the vast majority of the community. It's OP..That's just the way it is. Mesmer mains generally will be biased, so it's not really fair.

The right citation is :"When a class is being viewed as OP by the vast majority of the forum mafia. Then we can hurt it easily and remove entire sections of gameplay."(cf clone death and somes other major nerf.)

[Catchyfx.5768]

IDK if that OP still but is very annoying to play against(Condi)

Conffusion-hurts you if you spell somethingTorment-hurt you while you move

So you need to stand still and dont cast anything :) and eat hits (brilliant mechanism)you can avoid it by condicleanse but it must work like guard condi cleans you just strip them out of you. If it works like transfer it deasnt work cuz condi mesmer have high evade uptime so you miss a lot.

You can beat them if you learn how or have counterbuild or counterclass. Glory to pMirages shame for cMirages my personal opinion :D

[Noha.3749]

Condi/hybrid mirage is the only thing that could be "considered" op.But more so in WvW than sPvP.Scepter/torch + Sword/pistol is really really annoying to fight 1v1 - 1v2, but deals less damage than its Axe counterpart.Some staff condis have also shown up that are quite surviveable.. but well.. Overall they are just alot of work to wither down compared to more straight forward professions.

Imo Scepter instead of axe is stronger due to 4cd block which applies a savage torment on the enemy, and in a hybrid build scepter 3 deals crazy power AND condidamage.

[FaboBabo.3581]

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:Whats the point of asking if Mesmer is OP in the Mesmer Forum? Ask it in the PvP Forum if you want usefull answers.

What's the point of asking something in a forum with 90% of Players less skillfull then platinum? (this scenario is not meant aggressively , is just the flat truth)Balancing should never be designed arround the bad players.

[brappish.8715]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@"DanAlcedo.3281" said:Whats the point of asking if Mesmer is OP in the Mesmer Forum? Ask it in the PvP Forum if you want usefull answers.

What's the point of asking something in a forum with 90% of Players less skillfull then platinum? (this scenario is not meant aggressively , is just the flat truth)Balancing should never be designed arround the bad players.

Honestly there's some truth to that. But skillful doesn't 100% rely on what Spvp rank you are. I mean I my self-am gold three and was plat last season. A big reason for my lack of plat this year isn't because I'm bad, just combination of a few trash games and shitty teammates and "GG" in chat when the other team is 75 points ahead of you and then stand in the spawn. I really do think people are just too casual, want an easy fight, can't comprehend mesmer when fighting them and then QQ about it when they die from attacking/confusion killing them selves.

[FaboBabo.3581]

@brappish.8715 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@"DanAlcedo.3281" said:Whats the point of asking if Mesmer is OP in the Mesmer Forum? Ask it in the PvP Forum if you want usefull answers.

What's the point of asking something in a forum with 90% of Players less skillfull then platinum? (this scenario is not meant aggressively , is just the flat truth)Balancing should never be designed arround the bad players.

Honestly there's some truth to that. But skillful doesn't 100% rely on what Spvp rank you are. I mean I my self-am gold three and was plat last season. A big reason for my lack of plat this year isn't because I'm bad, just combination of a few trash games and kitten teammates and "GG" in chat when the other team is 75 points ahead of you and then stand in the spawn. I really do think people are just too casual, want an easy fight, can't comprehend mesmer when fighting them and then QQ about it when they die from attacking/confusion killing them selves.

I like the fact that as i entered Platinum, people would still panic dodge just because i blink to them.Then they will panic dodge again , while u do the "laugh" animation.

Mesmer OP.

[brappish.8715]

Lol again, mesmer is op because people are dumb.

[OlsenSan.2987]

Mesmers are op because people in forum says we are op, and when we show up in a fight they die out of fear. When they realize that people in forum doesn't know what they are talking about, they can win a fight. It's not easy to fully understand and master any class. So no class is op, and any class can be op when you master your class and are experienced enough to understand what the opposite class is bringing to a fight. I had hard times fighting some classes in other games, they were also known as op. But once I found out how to fight them, what they'd usually do, and was able to counter, interrupt and DMG them, even the high ranked ones had problem with me, and always when they'd see me, they'd want me dead. That could be in 1vs1, 1vs2 1vs Zerg or group vs group fight.Lose 1k fights against a class, learn everything they can do and what you can do to overcome it. Then you can finally tell they aren't op at all.But if you wanna join the game today and win every fight against every class, you should be playing a 1vs PC game.

[OlsenSan.2987]

It's nice if there are op classes in s game, because when you are able to defeat it, you know you are not op, but a GodPowered player.

[Levetty.1279]

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:Whats the point of asking if Mesmer is OP in the Mesmer Forum? Ask it in the PvP Forum if you want usefull answers.Reminder that people running around zerg farming in PvE know more about the game mechanics then PvP players.

[mortrialus.3062]

@MikeL.8260 said:As far as PvP is concerned yes, Mirage is op in low to mid tier divisions(bronze - gold3/plat1) and slightly above average in high tiers (high plat2+).

Definitely op in any sort of PvE.

In PvE? There are a few fights where Mirage is definitely over performing (Soulless Horror, Cairn, Conjured Amalgamate, Largos Twins). But on pretty much every other encounter it's middling at best.

Unless you mean Chrono is op in PvE. And yeah, that is definitely the case.

[Daishi.6027]

A lot of it is how you define OP.

People with bad Seme will complain about mirages 1v1 in PvP, but Portal is what made it meta when mesmer was objectively worse than thief.If that amount of team mobility is imba then I think a clear argument needs to be made, and not just nerf the class to compensate.

If you consider it "not a free kill that you actually have to play around 1v1" and there fore it is OP. I think you need to change your criteria.If it could last forever 2-3v1 on point and contest safely without getting pushed off until allies can help, in the context of conquest yeah that would be OP.

IMO nothing is OP in PvE, and if something ever was; NPCs can be buffed without directly gutting classes.

[apharma.3741]

@Julius Seizure.4985 said:The thing about Mesmer is that it has an extremely bloated tool kit. This becomes very obvious when you dig deeper into traits and design.

I’ll give one simple example. Flash Spark is an Engineer toolbelt skill that provides an instant cast PBAoE blind— it has been given a 40 second recharge for balance. This type of skill is pretty powerful, as it is effectively a free dodge/miss that becomes more valuable the better you are. Using it on a key skill can completely change the course of a fight.

Blinding Dissipation is a single Mesmer trait that turns every shatter skill into the equivalent of Flash Spark, an instant cast PBAoE blind, with recharges of 12, 25, 38, and 50 seconds. What this means is that not only can a good Mesmer use its dodges on key skills, but it almost always has the option to employ at least one PBAoE blind should they happen to be out of dodges while in melee range.

Now, this might not seem like a lot, but at high play levels it allows a good Mesmer to further shut down key skills used by opponents, and when you add it all up this one trait effectively gives Mesmers the ability to have an instant cast blind every 6-7seconds. Or for comparison, what is valued at 40 seconds recharge for one class is given to Mesmer four times over for a single master trait and recharges of 12, 25, 38, and 50 seconds.

The problem with Mesmer is that it has both a low skill floor, but also when you dig deeper that it has been granted far and away the highest skill ceiling.

I think you should maybe compare holosmith traits with mirage traits. Holosmith traits all buff holoforge and give holosmith a ton of flexibility in how to play and what other trait lines to run depending on build etc. Mirage traits on the other hand are not universally as good and require additional traits or skills to really get the most out of them. You could literally get random traits in holosmith and it would still be good on top of holoforge baseline being incredibly strong.

Self deception: Useless without deception skills, arguably not a great trait as well.Renewing oasis: Not bad but not that good and 4s regen isn't a lot so is best with chaos line. Remember mirage is best in a 1v1 and many classes vastly better for 2v2 and up.

Mirage mantle: See Renewing oasis. Not a good trait really.Mirrored axes: Strong with the axe, useless without.Desert distortion: Depends where your clones are, can be amazing, can be really poor. AoE heavy classes make the trait poor because you will get 1 mirror most of the time.

Dune cloak: Terrible, not even good in PvE.

Also mesmer doesn't have a low skill floor, mirage and chrono have low skill floor, playing core mesmer requires far more skill than most core specs now. Yes the skill floor is lower than launch but the core of the class is not easy to play and certainly not close to competitive like other classes.

Edit: You also conveniently missed out spectrum shield which is part of the requirement for having that skill. 50% reduced damage for 4s while being a stunbreak on a 30s cool down? 22.5s cool down if used with 50% or more heat without mentioning how it used to be 15s CD for a long time also. The comparison is apples to oranges.

[viquing.8254]

Also mesmer doesn't have a low skill floor, mirage and chrono have low skill floor, playing core mesmer requires far more skill than most core specs now. Yes the skill floor is lower than launch but the core of the class is not easy to play and certainly not close to competitive like other classes.

Can we please stop saying things like :

• "Power mirage is skilled ++ compared to condi mirage."
• "core mes(and near every other core class.) is skilled than powercreep spec."

Just watch this video (just the first 15 sec to get the idea.) :

Is it skill ? (well, in a certain way.)Can someone with skilled feet win against a top player ? (no, for many reasons.)

In PvP we are talking about efficiency regarding the current meta.Taking it for granted that the less efficient (and by definition the more skilled.) build you play, the better player you are is a silly way of thinking. (at last for me.)

That said, you are right, mirage didn't bring much looking at branch otpions apart ambush and evade mecanic.

[cryorion.9532]

Mesmer in general is the most op class in game because of it's toolkit. The class has access to basically everything.Why some people even argue that it's not, is beyond me.

[Arlette.9684]

@"cryorion.9532" said:Mesmer in general is the most op class in game because of it's toolkit. The class has access to basically everything.Why some people even argue that it's not, is beyond me.

We love it, when people generalize our toolkit with statements like "have everything."

[viquing.8254]

@cryorion.9532 said:Mesmer in general is the most op class in game because of it's toolkit. The class has access to basically everything.Why some people even argue that it's not, is beyond me.

Talk about toolkit, what did you think about FB :

• Every boon in the game apart alacrity.
• Access to 7 different conditions.
• 1 pull with a 5.25 sec cd during F1, 1 Knock back aoe CC on 24 sec cd, 1 pull on a 12 sec CD, 1 taunt on a 2.75 sec CD during F3,
• Water, light and fire combo fields, 1 blast Finisher,
• A reflect buble on a 5.25 sec CD during F3, a face reflect on a 15 cd.
• A target teleport.
• 7 Breakstunt on short CD and some stability stacks.
• Somes condiclear.
• A good healing teamplay ability even when build for 1v1 point holder.
• Most of skills have aoe effect (on allies or ennemies.)

So apart portal. Only portal. No, mesmer haven't the best toolkit, even if we don't look at FB extreme.That said, even on class that haven't much variety in their toolkit, they are more performant at the little tool they have.

[cryorion.9532]

@viquing.8254 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:Mesmer in general is the most op class in game because of it's toolkit. The class has access to basically everything.Why some people even argue that it's not, is beyond me.

Talk about toolkit, what did you think about FB :

• Every boon in the game apart alacrity.
• Access to 7 different conditions.
• 1 pull with a 5.25 sec cd during F1, 1 Knock back aoe CC on 24 sec cd, 1 pull on a 12 sec CD, 1 taunt on a 2.75 sec CD during F3,
• Water, light and fire combo fields, 1 blast Finisher,
• A reflect buble on a 5.25 sec CD during F3, a face reflect on a 15 cd.
• A target teleport.
• 7 Breakstunt on short CD and some stability stacks.
• Somes condiclear.
• A good healing teamplay ability even when build for 1v1 point holder.
• Most of skills have aoe effect (on allies or ennemies.)

So apart portal.

Only portal

. No, mesmer haven't the best toolkit, even if we don't look at FB extreme.That said, even on class that haven't much variety in their toolkit, they are more performant at the little tool they have.

FB can't disengage so easily and doesn't have access to stealth, you forgot that for some reason.Please, don't act like FB is more op than mirage/chrono. Although, I am not saying FB is not op.Also, it's generalized for all game modes.

[cryorion.9532]

@Arlette.9684 said:

@"cryorion.9532" said:Mesmer in general is the most op class in game because of it's toolkit. The class has access to basically everything.Why some people even argue that it's not, is beyond me.

We love it, when people generalize our toolkit with statements like "have everything."

Because you do. We also love mesmer players trying to argue that their class is not op :smile:

[viquing.8254]

FB can't disengage so easily and doesn't have access to stealth, you forgot that for some reason.They don't need to disengage and stealth because they have plenty of other way to mitigate incoming damage. What is more efficient between a solo stealth/teleport or a skill with a good aoe affect on allies/ennemies ?Like the majority of other meta spec who are better with less teleport/stealth, they can perform better in teamfight and point fight.

Please, don't act like FB is more op than mirage/chrono.Fact is that leaderboard is full of holo/SB/gard (core,fb) more than mesm/chrono.Where were mesmers lasts mAt ?Look at www.twitch.tv/jawgeous overview, the few mes who where there can't hold a point and were usefull only to portal, even with their OP disengage (lol) they died easily when focused.Find me a vid of the actual op mesmer in action please.I would like to learn how they do.

[cryorion.9532]

@viquing.8254 said:

FB can't disengage so easily and doesn't have access to stealth, you forgot that for some reason.They don't

need

to disengage and stealth because they have plenty of other way to mitigate incoming damage. What is more efficient between a solo stealth/teleport or a skill with a good aoe affect on allies/ennemies ?Like the majority of other meta spec who are better with less teleport/stealth, they can perform better in teamfight and point fight.

I said, it's generalized for all game modes and that includes PvE and WvW.

[viquing.8254]

Yeah and I said your statements are false at last for PvP because I don't PvE and last time I was playing WvW was 3.5 years ago.

[Amaranthe.3578]

@Brighteluden.2974 said:When a class is being viewed as OP by the vast majority of the community. It's OP..That's just the way it is. Mesmer mains generally will be biased, so it's not really fair.

Thats nonsense. The vast majority can be wrong.Mesmer is exceptionally good against bad/new/inexperienced players, when fighting good players he is completely fine.If you nerf him he will be fine against bad players and will totally suck against competent players.

[apharma.3741]

@"viquing.8254" said:

Also mesmer doesn't have a low skill floor, mirage and chrono have low skill floor, playing core mesmer requires far more skill than most core specs now. Yes the skill floor is lower than launch but the core of the class is not easy to play and certainly not close to competitive like other classes.

Can we please stop saying things like :

• "Power mirage is skilled ++ compared to condi mirage."
• "core mes(and near every other core class.) is skilled than powercreep spec."

Just watch this video (just the first 15 sec to get the idea.) :

Is it skill ?

(well, in a certain way.)Can someone with skilled feet win against a top player ? (no, for many reasons.)

In PvP we are talking about efficiency regarding the current meta.Taking it for granted that the less efficient (and by definition the more skilled.) build you play, the better player you are is a silly way of thinking. (at last for me.)

That said, you are right, mirage didn't bring much looking at branch otpions apart ambush and evade mecanic.

There is a clear distinction to be made as there are a few classes where core builds are actually viable. Without mirage or chrono many mesmer builds aren't competitive and it is the elite specs that largely make the skills viable now after the ham handed nerfs to the class. You will never see a viable phantasm mirage build. You'll likely not see a viable interrupt build that isn't mirage now chrono shield 5 isn't good for interrupting with a long cast, same for gravity well even though both are bigger CC's. When the next elite spec comes along and mantras or glamour skills become insanely broken with them they will be nerfed to a point where they're OK if not a little weak on that and largely weaksauce without.

The same cannot be said for most other classes where it's been the elite specs were targeted for nerfs rather than the core class leaving the core class yes weaker than the elite spec but it's not weaker than it has been before.