Endurance, Mirages and Deadeyes

[Shagaliscious.6281]

@MUDse.7623 said:i dunno holo and warrior deal decent damage on dodge, ranger gains protection wich also will heal the ranger. guardian gets large aoe heal.id say just 3 professions have rather weak on dodge skills: ele, rev, necro.

Weavers generally run arcane spec, and evasive arcana means condi clear on dodge in water, and blast finisher on dodge in earth. It's a pretty strong trait.

[spectrito.8513]

@"FaboBabo.3581" said:

Every class has its own features.

Yeah, but a Weaver for example, if you make a mistake you are dead.

But as a Mirage, if you make a mistake you can just press dodge.Mirage is WAY too forgiving by a average (potato) playerand WAY too strong by a skilled player

"Oh but EM sucks now"In my opnion it's still a good trait for new players.You only get caught in a hard CC if you're bad/new

Experienced players dont need EM as long as they can dodge before the CCIH was always a better trait for damageEndurance boosts just allow Mirage to do EVEN MORE damage while invulnerable.

A nerf to endurance boosts like Adventure's rune, Energy sigil and food would be a direct nerf to Mirages and Deadeyes ability to spam dodges.Forcing them to chose more wisely when to dodge

edit: word

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Honestly deadeye permastealth is a non issue since the patch, just bait them near a friendly sentry or paint them with the new trick and watch them waste all their shadow melds while they're marked. That build cannot function without stealth due to the way valk and hidden killer work, and if they're zerk and you struggle to kill it when it's hit with a 6s reveal every time it dodges or uses it's profession mechanic I don't know what else to tell you. Yeah, encroaching on their territory is dangerous, but it is equally dangerous for them to encroach on yours now so honestly it's pretty fair.

Mirage dodges are pure BS, but that's because getting evade frames without an animation is inherently OP. Same as using shatters to burst when stunned tho, mesmer has had access to that sort of stuff for a while. Changing the endurance regen foods etc won't help, with the mobility and spike damage they have they don't have to stick around so it just means they bug out that much sooner if the burst fails. OP mechanic is OP by design.

[spectrito.8513]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Mirage dodges are pure BS, but that's because getting evade frames without an animation is inherently OP. Same as using shatters to burst when stunned tho, mesmer has had access to that sort of stuff for a while. Changing the endurance regen foods etc won't help, with the mobility and spike damage they have they don't have to stick around so it just means they bug out that much sooner if the burst fails. OP mechanic is OP by design.

A nerf to endurances boosts means less dodges, less dodges means less ambush attacks,less ambush attacks means less mobility and damage from ambush attacks.

Overall it's a nerf to it's OP mechanic

[apharma.3741]

@spectrito.8513 said:

@"FaboBabo.3581" said:

Every class has its own features.

Yeah, but a Weaver for example, if you make a mistake you are dead.

But as a Mirage, if you make a mistake you can just press dodge.Mirage is WAY too forgiving by a average (potato) playerand WAY too strong by a skilled player

"Oh but EM sucks now"In my opnion it's still a good trait for new players.You only get caught in a hard CC if you're bad/new

Experienced players dont need EM as long as they can dodge before the CCIH was always a better trait for damageEndurance boosts just allow Mirage to do EVEN MORE damage while invulnerable.

A nerf to endurance boosts like Adventure's rune, Energy sigil and food would be a direct nerf to Mirages and Deadeyes to spam dodges.Forcing them to chose more wisely when to dodge

That works great till you realise they gutted mesmer vigor access in the last balance patch and ambush skills are locked behind dodges.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_InfusionAugust 28, 2018 - The vigor duration of this trait has been reduced from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP and WvW

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nomad%27s_EnduranceAugust 28, 2018 - The vigor duration of this trait has been reduced from 3 seconds to 1.5 seconds in PvP and WvW.

So now vigor access on core mesmer is terrible if not possibly one of the worst of all classes currently and I don't know if you've been playing a lot of core mesmer but it sucks, it really sucks. Mirage can just about keep up high vigor uptime if they can get off 2-3 clone shatters most of the time and take duelling trait line with precision for crits but you're really hitting that fine line between playable and falling apart.

However classes like holo, ranger, ele, thief have perma vigor that is quite easy for them to get through one way or another. Some classes have flat endurance regeneration in traits or skills, engineer, ranger, daredevil, warrior, revenant on shiro and that weird tempest trait that no-one ever runs.

Sure if you're a necro player you might have grounds to complain but then you'd also not want these runes and sigils removing because it makes your life a lot worse.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Mirage dodges are pure BS, but that's because getting evade frames without an animation is inherently OP. Same as using shatters to burst when stunned tho, mesmer has had access to that sort of stuff for a while. Changing the endurance regen foods etc won't help, with the mobility and spike damage they have they don't have to stick around so it just means they bug out that much sooner if the burst fails. OP mechanic is OP by design.

A nerf to endurances boosts means less dodges, less dodges means less ambush attacks,less ambush attacks means less mobility and damage from ambush attacks.

Overall it's a nerf to it's OP mechanic

Maybe, I don't have a problem with nerfing endurance regen stuff btw, I'm just skeptical about how effective it will be is all. I guess the only real solution is try it and see how it pans out.

[spectrito.8513]

@apharma.3741 said:

So now vigor access on core mesmer is terrible if not possibly one of the worst of all classes currently and I don't know if you've been playing a lot of core mesmer but it sucks, it really sucks.

Well, Anet's fault.As a Ele player i really feel you.

Anet way to balance often hurts core classes instead of nerfing elite specs. I cant talk for everyone but i don't agree with it and i dont think it's the way to goI would dare to say it's one of the main reason why people complain so much about it

[spectrito.8513]

@Straegen.2938 said:They can have the thief dodges when they nerf the hell out of boons... seriously try to take down a boon spam Holosmith, Tempest, Druid, Firebrand and then complain about thief dodges.

It's WvW, people tends to play tougher builds in order to survive on zergsYou can't expect to one shot minstrel FB's

[LetoII.3782]

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Straegen.2938 said:They can have the thief dodges when they nerf the hell out of boons... seriously try to take down a boon spam Holosmith, Tempest, Druid, Firebrand and then complain about thief dodges.

It's WvW, people tends to play tougher builds in order to survive on zergsYou can't expect to one shot minstrel FB's

Not to mention a minstrels FB has zero chance of killing you back.

[Klypto.1703]

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Straegen.2938 said:They can have the thief dodges when they nerf the hell out of boons... seriously try to take down a boon spam Holosmith, Tempest, Druid, Firebrand and then complain about thief dodges.

It's WvW, people tends to play tougher builds in order to survive on zergsYou can't expect to one shot minstrel FB's

What is worse is that anet is listening to these bad players who depend on tags, zergs, necro traits/broken condi's and then complain if someone counter plays them. So anet just destroys the stealth aspect that is core parts of mesmer and thief but more so thief and pretty much the entire spec of deadeye. Which what I don't get is you come out with deadeye then completely redo the whole spec just to kill it with this nerf. I guess they want thieves and revs to be pve only classes now.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

'destroy' thieves? really? thieves complaining? about what? that they can't camp perma stealth and take out people without fear of reataliation?

[apharma.3741]

@Klypto.1703 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@"Straegen.2938" said:They can have the thief dodges when they nerf the hell out of boons... seriously try to take down a boon spam Holosmith, Tempest, Druid, Firebrand and then complain about thief dodges.

It's WvW, people tends to play tougher builds in order to survive on zergsYou can't expect to one shot minstrel FB's

What is worse is that anet is listening to these bad players who depend on tags, zergs, necro traits/broken condi's and then complain if someone counter plays them. So anet just destroys the stealth aspect that is core parts of mesmer and thief but more so thief and pretty much the entire spec of deadeye. Which what I don't get is you come out with deadeye then completely redo the whole spec just to kill it with this nerf. I guess they want thieves and revs to be pve only classes now.

Yeah this is something I don't think people have really cottoned onto yet. The marked change completely cripples anything that has relied on stealth to avoid damage and re position. If you don't like fighting things with stealth just lure them to anything that will mark them or lay a mark trap. Whenever they go into stealth they will have it limited to 2s and be slapped with 5s reveal and you can't remove marked at all so for those classes it's like fighting with 1 hand tied behind your back. To be clear to other people reading this, I'm not referring to builds with 10-infinite stealth, I mean builds that might have two 3-4s stealth abilities on 30s CDs.

"but but mobility, stealth, DAMAGE!!!1" - yeah that's very 2017, this is 2018 and we have PoF power creep where everything does insane damage without taking damage traits, half the classes have tons of stealth if they want it and mobility is only a complaint for necros and possibly guardians at this point but they also have the sustain and active defences which they used to have on top.

[spectrito.8513]

@Klypto.1703 said:

What is worse is that anet is listening to these bad players who depend on tags, zergs, necro traits/broken condi's and then complain if someone counter plays themStrictly roaming player here.It doesnt mean much but i'm a plat player, i'm not the best but i'm not bad.There's no problem with being counterplayedThe problem is to be counterplayed with an uncounterplayble mechanic. In most cases you can't do shit about stealth

@Klypto.1703 said:So anet just destroys the stealth aspect that is core parts of mesmer and thief but more so thief and pretty much the entire spec of deadeye. Which what I don't get is you come out with deadeye then completely redo the whole spec just to kill it with this nerf.

I dont agree with the new marked mechanic, it will turn some not-that-good skills into useless skills on certain situations, it's a lazy solution

I think nerfing endurance boosts is a better solution cuz it dont mess with core classes and it can stop this currently dodge spamfest of invulnerabilitys and permastealth.

[BlueMelody.6398]

@Lucentfir.7430 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:As usual non-mirage players talk without knowing what's up. Mirage used to have 0.75 dodge too, it was so awful than a normal dodge was better.With the vigor nerf other professions have more evade uptime then mirage.Please L2P.

I roam with mirage players that are untouchable in WvW. And so are the few good ones we run into.

This spec knows only two limitations when fully buffed by all endurance granting stuff: overextending and lack of skill.

In WvW I'm inclined to agree. especially Condi mirage, it's absolute Ebola in the roaming scene/ very small scale. Access to Dire/Trailblaizer stats + energy sigils (50 Endurance), Endurance Regen food + Vigor, adventure runes. Playing it for a couple hours last night trying to get a better idea how to fight them, I learned nothing aside from i can face roll everything that isn't another decently played condi mirage and a Condi DD that can skip out when it gets too hot. You really have to go out of your way to die on it.

The other night we were taking the circle on SWT when a small roaming group entered, thinking to slow us down. But they realized they couldn't reach us in time, so they bailed. Except one mirage got caught right at the portal when it flipped. We had him targeted and in combat instantly, but he stimply turned, ran through us, up the stairs, off the wall, blinked away, turned, and bowed. 35 people hitting him with cc's, max damage with nothing on cd, and he never dropped below 80% health. No class should be able to run through a 35-man zerg, while targeted by everyone, ignoring all cc's, and basically thumb his nose at us.

Mirage is grossly OP when played by anyone with a clue.

[Riba.3271]

@BlueMelody.6398 said:

The other night we were taking the circle on SWT when a small roaming group entered, thinking to slow us down. But they realized they couldn't reach us in time, so they bailed. Except one mirage got caught right at the portal when it flipped. We had him targeted and in combat instantly, but he stimply turned, ran through us, up the stairs, off the wall, blinked away, turned, and bowed. 35 people hitting him with cc's, max damage with nothing on cd, and he never dropped below 80% health. No class should be able to run through a 35-man zerg, while targeted by everyone, ignoring all cc's, and basically thumb his nose at us.

Mirage is grossly OP when played by anyone with a clue.

Thats just issue of you guys not using CC like lines of wardings, statics, slick shoes etc. This invuln troll thingy is normal tho, ele, DD, engi, war can do the same but with less weakness to CC.

Overall Mirage is busted ye but its just the fact that mirage has too much endurance regen (which translates into mobility), stealth, clone generation etc, not being immune for a few seconds.

[Taobella.6597]

if you want to punish someone that spam dodges learn how dodging work. there an aftercast delay an start up delay on All eva mech (that are not instant trigger) in the game.

the end of a dodge roll is .75 from .75 to .765 open frame where thief can take Unavoidable dmg. this (.015) double if thief double dodges.

All Fix animation skills in the game suffer from this engine flaw. Fix animation meaning you can not weapon stow cancel it.

[Klypto.1703]

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Klypto.1703 said:

What is worse is that anet is listening to these bad players who depend on tags, zergs, necro traits/broken condi's and then complain if someone counter plays themStrictly roaming player here.It doesnt mean much but i'm a plat player, i'm not the best but i'm not bad.There's no problem with being counterplayedThe problem is to be counterplayed with an uncounterplayble mechanic. In most cases you can't do kitten about stealth

@Klypto.1703 said:So anet just destroys the stealth aspect that is core parts of mesmer and thief but more so thief and pretty much the entire spec of deadeye. Which what I don't get is you come out with deadeye then completely redo the whole spec just to kill it with this nerf.

I dont agree with the new marked mechanic, it will turn some not-that-good skills into useless skills on certain situations, it's a lazy solution

I think nerfing endurance boosts is a better solution cuz it dont mess with core classes and it can stop this currently dodge spamfest of invulnerabilitys and permastealth.

LOL Thief of every ability they have none of them create an invuln which is false and you can press dodge all you want for stealth it doesn't perma stealth the thief. A thief has to use an alternate method even with the food to maintain it so they are using their initiative and endurance. So once you catch up to your target you have to wait for it to come back to high enough level to time the attack right. So what this change has done is just let a player run to a sentry/watchtower or drop a trap to completely counter a spec like deadeye that mostly uses stealth for the little sustain it has. As before you could counterplay a deadeye but now the non-deadeyes actually have that trap to use or again the sentry/watchtower to counter without worry of being counterplayed just by throwing down one item. Its pretty much the cries from the players who relied on necro carrying them so they have a new crutch to stand on. Hopefully if anet cares about players who actually play deadeye or stealth in wvw they will reverse this or have some kind of balance to this since I'm just going to go elsewhere to play where I've invested time into I just know personally anet won't be getting any more support from me.

[spectrito.8513]

@Klypto.1703 said:

LOL Thief of every ability they have none of them create an invuln which is false and you can press dodge all you want for stealth it doesn't perma stealth the thief. A thief has to use an alternate method even with the food to maintain it so they are using their initiative and endurance. So once you catch up to your target you have to wait for it to come back to high enough level to time the attack right. So what this change has done is just let a player run to a sentry/watchtower or drop a trap to completely counter a spec like deadeye that mostly uses stealth for the little sustain it has. As before you could counterplay a deadeye but now the non-deadeyes actually have that trap to use or again the sentry/watchtower to counter without worry of being counterplayed just by throwing down one item. Its pretty much the cries from the players who relied on necro carrying them so they have a new crutch to stand on. Hopefully if anet cares about players who actually play deadeye or stealth in wvw they will reverse this or have some kind of balance to this since I'm just going to go elsewhere to play where I've invested time into I just know personally anet won't be getting any more support from me.

This threat is not only about Thieves.

When i made this post i didnt knew this was coming.As i said before, i dont like this change, it just kills other builds/skills.

The problem was the stealth uptime from Deadeyes inside structures (permastealth)

So Anet instead of limiting the amount of Stealth Deadeyes haveThey screwed every other stealth user, which was not the problem.Now Deadeyes and Mirages are still untouchable due to how much endurance they can get from boostsAnd all stealth users will be affected by this.

It's just a new problem.

[DemonSeed.3528]

Speaking of which, since we have marked traps now they could probably undo the reveal on thief traps since it would be redundant and it would not pose a problem now.

[Dawdler.8521]

@spectrito.8513 said:And all stealth users will be affected by this.Not really, only those that use so much stealth that their mediocre build becomes unviable without it. On my mesmer I wouldnt even use the torch if Anet hadnt nerfed the offhand sword, because no one ever used torch of course...

The endurance claim remain ridiculous. All other classes has builds that easily rivals the mesmer and thief in terms of OP mechanics.

[spectrito.8513]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

Not really, only those that use so much stealth that their mediocre build becomes unviable without it.It will affect any skill with more then 2 sec stealth.Marked: This effect has been updated and will now reveal enemies for 5 seconds if they remain in stealth for 2 seconds or more. This effect is referred to as Detected!

On my mesmer I wouldnt even use the torch if Anet hadnt nerfed the offhand sword, because no one ever used torch of course...The endurance claim remain ridiculous. All other classes has builds that easily rivals the mesmer and thief in terms of OP mechanics.

Yes, classes have OP mechanics, but only Mirage and Deadeyes can abuse from boosts that much to make it to another level.Mirage and Deadeyes are too safe, low risk high reward.It's like playing god mode, no one can kill you.

[apharma.3741]

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

Not really, only those that use so much stealth that their mediocre build becomes unviable without it.It will affect any skill with more then 2 sec stealth.Marked: This effect has been updated and will now reveal enemies for 5 seconds if they remain in stealth for 2 seconds or more. This effect is referred to as Detected!

On my mesmer I wouldnt even use the torch if Anet hadnt nerfed the offhand sword, because

no one

ever used torch of course...The endurance claim remain ridiculous. All other classes has builds that

easily

rivals the mesmer and thief in terms of OP mechanics.

Yes, classes have OP mechanics, but only Mirage and Deadeyes can abuse from boosts that much to make it to another level.Mirage and Deadeyes are too safe, low risk high reward.It's like playing god mode, no one can kill you.

Yeah but the 2s duration is far too short and will cut most stealth abilities off forcing you to be revealed. Remember thief and mesmer are balanced around stealth being their active defence. If this change was meant to curtail deadeyes staying stealthed in towers they would increase this to 10s so it doesn't interfere with normal use of stealth as a disengage or positioning tool and shadow meld would run out after 30s.

It also doesn't really help against towers unless upgraded and it was breached, very niche. The change was just a flat nerf to stealth and most notably mesmer, thief and scrapper.

[Dawdler.8521]

@apharma.3741 said:It also doesn't really help against towers unless upgraded and it was breached, very niche. The change was just a flat nerf to stealth and most notably mesmer, thief and scrapper.I do find it amusing you didnt mention druid as they got access to more stealth than the scrapper and mesmer combined.

[apharma.3741]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@apharma.3741 said:It also doesn't really help against towers unless upgraded and it was breached, very niche. The change was just a flat nerf to stealth and most notably mesmer, thief and scrapper.I do find it amusing you didnt mention druid as they got access to more stealth than the scrapper and mesmer combined.

I didn't because I barely see them but thanks for bringing them up.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Ranger:Already have +25% endurance regen in Wilderness Survival + Companion's Defense + Rugged Growth.With food it means +65% endurance, one dodge every 6sec, each dodge gives 2s protection and 520 heals.

Holosmith :You have Adrenal implant in tool spec : +50% endurance regen. Or you can take kinteic battery ( which works way too strong with Photon Forge and major traits, but ok) and the food +40% endurance + perma vigor.Thermal release Wave is 2k dmg easily + burning + -15% heat + Edit* HEAL.

Warrior :Reckless Dodge + MMR, each dodge do dmg + gives power that heals to 133 and give 2%endurance.With food it means you earn 2 mights and heal to 266, 4% endurance every dodge.Okai MMR got nerfed, but now with mending update, with runes and sigils which give 5 mights it's quite viable ; with food, the more you have endurance > the more you have mights and endurance, it's exponentially insane.

Deadeye/daredevil :Need to explain ? Daredevil : Spamming Bounding Dodger + staff #5 + Escapist Absolution + Driven Fortitude + Endless Stamina + food + (perma) vigor + sigil and all the endurance gain from skills and staff, you have a dodge every <4sec (Try it, I don't lie)Actually Darevil in WvW is really stupidly strong ( not only in raid): staff (#5) + acrobatics + Trickery + food + Rune of the Daredevil, (why not sigil of intelligence), you can be 80% of the time evading atttacks, it's just insane.Deadeye : more stealth, more stealth attacks ...

Mirage :Same as thief. With vigor, food and sigil, mirage cloak is >20%invulnerability uptime, more ambushs, more daze, more mirror, more infinite horizon, more dune cloak, etc etc.

Vigor is fair, vigor is a boon, you have to manage to get it, to get more duration, the enemy can remove/corrupt it. But Gameplay mechanics on Endurance ???? But food ??????? Food shoud not be the lifeblood of a build.Sigil of Energy ... hmmmmmmmm it could be 25% like in PvP.

Edit: there is weaver/elem too with arcane Grandmaster trait, but I won't talk about it because elem is already dying since years and I don't want Balance team to nerf it to the underground.