terrible change for lead attack

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Everyone blaming DE for this nerf really should have been having a look at the oneshot staff build people have been using recently, which also got nerfed in this patch. You can't lay the blame solely on DE and it's damage when daredevils were running around slapping people for 20k+ vaults abusing the shadowstep trick to play it like a backstab.

Yea but they fixed that shadowstep trick so there was really no point of the lead attacks nerf based on that. Staff already did a ton of damage even without it. Vault slamming isn't new.

Yeah, vault slamming isn't new, but this general trend of reducing damage potential across all classes is, and daredevil can pull off similar numbers to DE if built for it. Also, I don't necessarily agree with the LA changes, I'm just pointing out that the decision was probably made with more than just DE in mind.

[Elxdark.9702]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Everyone blaming DE for this nerf really should have been having a look at the oneshot staff build people have been using recently, which also got nerfed in this patch. You can't lay the blame solely on DE and it's damage when daredevils were running around slapping people for 20k+ vaults abusing the shadowstep trick to play it like a backstab.

but this wasn't a problem in pvp, when will Anet understand that WvW is full of BS builds and PvP has max like 1-2 builds per class.They can't do balance for WvW and put it in PvP as well because WvW is full of one shot builds or whatever they have there.

This trait hurts every thief build because it's used in every thief build (at least in pvp) instead of nerfing the skills from the one shot builds (Vault/DJ) this is just truly Anet way to nerf stuff, I'm not surprised they did this but at the same time it's so stupid.Yeah and probably s/d monkey thieves are happy since they can just jump around and spamming 3 + steal, happy that they don't have to play d/p again cuz they don't know how to do it.

[omgdracula.6345]

@Elxdark.9702 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Everyone blaming DE for this nerf really should have been having a look at the oneshot staff build people have been using recently, which also got nerfed in this patch. You can't lay the blame solely on DE and it's damage when daredevils were running around slapping people for 20k+ vaults abusing the shadowstep trick to play it like a backstab.

but this wasn't a problem in pvp, when will Anet understand that WvW is full of BS builds and PvP has max like 1-2 builds per class.They can't do balance for WvW and put it in PvP as well because WvW is full of one shot builds or whatever they have there.

This trait hurts every thief build because it's used in every thief build (at least in pvp) instead of nerfing the skills from the one shot builds (Vault/DJ) this is just truly Anet way to nerf stuff, I'm not surprised they did this but at the same time it's so stupid.Yeah and probably s/d monkey thieves are happy since they can just jump around and spamming 3 + steal, happy that they don't have to play d/p again cuz they don't know how to do it.

This exactly. I play D/P because the build is fun as hell to play. But now stacking stealth with a benefit is gone so I might as well not waste time stealthing or initiative and just play S/D. Silly

WvW is just an unrealistic mode to even try to balance.

[Derenaya.3479]

D/P DD WAS fun as hell but now it does even less damage then it did before.

[foste.3098]

after playing around i found that this build is the most effective for daredevil if anyone is hellbent on playing the elite spec.It has utility, it has stealth (dodge through smoke fields), it has damage (average 8k pistol whips on light golems) the only issue it has is the fact you get rooted during pw which makes the flow of combat feel sluggish.Buuuut the best part of it is the fact it is super frustrating to play against so go on and start up your own sodium mine on ladder.

Keep in mind that the editor is not yet updated.

[bq pd.2148]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Everyone blaming DE for this nerf really should have been having a look at the oneshot staff build people have been using recently, which also got nerfed in this patch. You can't lay the blame solely on DE and it's damage when daredevils were running around slapping people for 20k+ vaults abusing the shadowstep trick to play it like a backstab.

i guess its just people trying to find a reason outside their build to explain that nerf, pretty normal. i personally also dont understand it, but maybe future changes will show their intention. right now its a little confusing change but i am pretty certain that its not because of any oneshot build, both DJ and Vault got their nerfs seperately. the LA is a nerf to everyone using trickery and not some specific build, i am sure anet is aware of that. MBackstab scaling did not get changed so i guess its fine for the risk involved (maybe we will see next a shadowstepping cancels backstabs ;) )

[Taobella.6597]

i agree with the change stacking buff outside of combat is a dumb design.

[omgdracula.6345]

@Taobella.6597 said:i agree with the change stacking buff outside of combat is a dumb design.

Thief isn't the only class that has effects like this though. That is one of the other issues.

[DemonSeed.3528]

Hm should life force generation also be included in combat only scenarios instead of passively earned (passive is probably a bad way of putting it)? What other skills (on whichever classes) should be changed to require combat only? Would it be a fair thing or is it an apples/oranges thing when it comes to that? Just thinking out loud here.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@DemonSeed.3528 said:Hm should life force generation also be included in combat only scenarios instead of passively earned (passive is probably a bad way of putting it)? What other skills (on whichever classes) should be changed to require combat only? Would it be a fair thing or is it an apples/oranges thing when it comes to that? Just thinking out loud here.

thief dosnt need lead attacks to win fights, necros do actually NEED life force.

kentic battery has the same thing as lead attacks

[DemonSeed.3528]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@DemonSeed.3528 said:Hm should life force generation also be included in combat only scenarios instead of passively earned (passive is probably a bad way of putting it)? What other skills (on whichever classes) should be changed to require combat only? Would it be a fair thing or is it an apples/oranges thing when it comes to that? Just thinking out loud here.

thief dosnt need lead attacks to win fights, necros do actually NEED life force.

kentic battery has the same thing as lead attacks

That's true - in fact I don't think I've ever relied on lead attacks (at least not conciously) - most of my fights usually start with barely any so this change hasn't really affected me at all.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@DemonSeed.3528 said:Hm should life force generation also be included in combat only scenarios instead of passively earned (passive is probably a bad way of putting it)? What other skills (on whichever classes) should be changed to require combat only? Would it be a fair thing or is it an apples/oranges thing when it comes to that? Just thinking out loud here.

If the life force level grants damage boost, then yes, I would agree to restrict it to combat only, however it doesn't grant damage boost so yes, apple and oranges.

If I remember correctly, Adrenaline used to linger for a long time after combat. It was changed so it depletes as soon as combat ends. This way you cannot bring a full adrenaline to start a new fight and initiate with a Burst attack.

[Taobella.6597]

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Taobella.6597 said:i agree with the change stacking buff outside of combat is a dumb design.

Thief isn't the only class that has effects like this though. That is one of the other issues.

an in my personal view they should all be change so that there only active in combat. over buffing yourself outside of combat is just dumb.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:Everyone blaming DE for this nerf really should have been having a look at the oneshot staff build people have been using recently, which also got nerfed in this patch. You can't lay the blame solely on DE and it's damage when daredevils were running around slapping people for 20k+ vaults abusing the shadowstep trick to play it like a backstab.

"Recently?"

This has been a thing since before HoT came out and when Vault still had the better damage coef than Backstab with no conditions and a lower case time lol.It's the same with all elite specs. Way too overtuned compared to core on the baseline values. No amount of nerfing core will keep things in check.

As for LA, I get the intentions of the change in respects to SA/DE, but it really should have just been a nerf to MBS and a reason to rework SA. This is low-hanging fruit again and really doesn't do anyone any good long-term. Even here I think it'd have been okay to cap the LA stacks at like 5 when OOC or something. This hurts a lot of play with Infil Strike since to maximize the disengage you need to combo it with steal and it usually involves a precast of something like FS/PW/DDagger/etc.

[bq pd.2148]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:Everyone blaming DE for this nerf really should have been having a look at the oneshot staff build people have been using recently, which also got nerfed in this patch. You can't lay the blame solely on DE and it's damage when daredevils were running around slapping people for 20k+ vaults abusing the shadowstep trick to play it like a backstab.

"Recently?"

This has been a thing since before HoT came out and when Vault still had the better damage coef than Backstab with no conditions and a lower case time lol.It's the same with all elite specs. Way too overtuned compared to core on the baseline values. No amount of nerfing core will keep things in check.

As for LA, I get the intentions of the change in respects to SA/DE, but it really should have just been a nerf to MBS and a reason to rework SA. This is low-hanging fruit again and really doesn't do anyone any good long-term. Even here I think it'd have been okay to cap the LA stacks at like 5 when OOC or something. This hurts a lot of play with Infil Strike since to maximize the disengage you need to combo it with steal and it usually involves a precast of something like FS/PW/DDagger/etc.

why do you think to nerf SA DE they would even remotely think of nerfing LA? do you really think they dont know that they dont run trickery?

[DeceiverX.8361]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:Everyone blaming DE for this nerf really should have been having a look at the oneshot staff build people have been using recently, which also got nerfed in this patch. You can't lay the blame solely on DE and it's damage when daredevils were running around slapping people for 20k+ vaults abusing the shadowstep trick to play it like a backstab.

"Recently?"

This has been a thing since before HoT came out and when Vault still had the better damage coef than Backstab with no conditions and a lower case time lol.It's the same with all elite specs. Way too overtuned compared to core on the baseline values. No amount of nerfing core will keep things in check.

As for LA, I get the intentions of the change in respects to SA/DE, but it really should have just been a nerf to MBS and a reason to rework SA. This is low-hanging fruit again and really doesn't do anyone any good long-term. Even here I think it'd have been okay to cap the LA stacks at like 5 when OOC or something. This hurts a lot of play with Infil Strike since to maximize the disengage you need to combo it with steal and it usually involves a precast of something like FS/PW/DDagger/etc.

why do you think to nerf SA DE they would even remotely think of nerfing LA? do you really think they dont know that they dont run trickery?

That only applies to DE. I speak for Core SA and Daredevil D/P which both would maintain permanent 15 stacks while camping stealth and not falling low on initiative, either.

Notice I specified rework to SA. I don't think the interaction was strictly OP, but I do not think the interaction is/was intended or very healthy considering a maxed LA is offering potentially similar damage gains as CS depending on choice of trait selection across the lines.

And if they reworked SA to get rid of camping stealth it wouldn't have really been a problem interaction on DE as it was, and maybe could be reverted.

[bq pd.2148]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:Everyone blaming DE for this nerf really should have been having a look at the oneshot staff build people have been using recently, which also got nerfed in this patch. You can't lay the blame solely on DE and it's damage when daredevils were running around slapping people for 20k+ vaults abusing the shadowstep trick to play it like a backstab.

"Recently?"

This has been a thing since before HoT came out and when Vault still had the better damage coef than Backstab with no conditions and a lower case time lol.It's the same with all elite specs. Way too overtuned compared to core on the baseline values. No amount of nerfing core will keep things in check.

As for LA, I get the intentions of the change in respects to SA/DE, but it really should have just been a nerf to MBS and a reason to rework SA. This is low-hanging fruit again and really doesn't do anyone any good long-term. Even here I think it'd have been okay to cap the LA stacks at like 5 when OOC or something. This hurts a lot of play with Infil Strike since to maximize the disengage you need to combo it with steal and it usually involves a precast of something like FS/PW/DDagger/etc.

why do you think to nerf SA DE they would even remotely think of nerfing LA? do you really think they dont know that they dont run trickery?

That only applies to DE. I speak for Core SA and Daredevil D/P which both would maintain permanent 15 stacks while camping stealth and not falling low on initiative, either.

Notice I specified

rework

to SA. I don't think the interaction was strictly OP, but I do not think the interaction is/was intended or very healthy considering a maxed LA is offering potentially similar damage gains as CS depending on choice of trait selection across the lines.

And if they reworked SA to get rid of camping stealth it wouldn't have really been a problem interaction on DE as it was, and maybe could be reverted.

again its just assumption wich totaly off meta builds would cause such a change.

[lodjur.1284]

@DemonSeed.3528 said:Hm should life force generation also be included in combat only scenarios instead of passively earned (passive is probably a bad way of putting it)? What other skills (on whichever classes) should be changed to require combat only? Would it be a fair thing or is it an apples/oranges thing when it comes to that? Just thinking out loud here.

Making lifeforce only obtainable in combat would be more like making thief iniative only obtainable in combat, which I am sure is something you'd also support then. In fact necromancer already have extremely few ways of generating lifeforce outside of combat, Your soul is mine and dessicate being the only ones that come to mind. So I guess that already is more or less the case...

Lifeforce working more like energy (locked at 50% out of combat) would be a great change for necro and be positive in every conceivable way

[Exitus.3297]

I don't get why people are comparing a damage modifier to core class mechanics like Warrior Adrenaline and Necro Life Force. They aren't even remotely comparable. It would be comparable to compare those mechanics to Initiative.

I want to state first that I would have been okay with a nerf to Thieves, as long as it is done in a way that makes sense. For example, I personally would have been okay with a nerf to Dagger Storm because of how hard it got power-creeped.

Anyway, here is an example that I hope helps players understand why the nerf doesn't make sense. Imagine that Core Guardians using Hammer with Radiance were over-performing in some way (maybe they actually are, I don't think so but bear with me anyway). Keep in mind, it is Core Guardian's utilizing the Radiance trait line with a Hammer specifically that are the problem in this example. To combat this, ANet then proceeds to change the trait Virtue of Retribution in the Virtue trait line to make it so Guardians must be in combat for their Virtues to give them Retaliation. They do this specifically to reduce the burst of Guardians by keeping them from priming themselves with Retaliation before bursting into a fight with a Might Blow > Judge's Intervention. In this instance, even though it was Retaliation or the Hammer over-performing, they take aim at the Virtues passive trait that may affect multiple builds. Between that and the fact it wasn't warranted, I'm sure core Guardians wouldn't like this change because it doesn't make sense.

Another example I can think of is Engineers. They have a trait called Excessive Energy in the Tools trait line, where having Vigor grants them a 10% damage boost. Imagine if they took every trait in the game that gave them Vigor, such as Invigorating Speed (gain Vigor when you gain Swiftness) and made it so they don't work until they are in combat. Imagine they did this because specifically Holosmiths are overperforming, despite that it is a trait a lot of Engi builds use. (I know if a core build that goes by the nickname "Bursty Boi" if I remember correctly.)

Even though to some degree both changes would accomplish the goal of bringing these classes in line if they were overperforming, they are done so in a way that harms the entire class as a whole instead of addressing the real problem. That is the Lead Attacks change for Thief mains right now; punishing the whole class because of one thing that was out of line.

[omgdracula.6345]

@Taobella.6597 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Taobella.6597 said:i agree with the change stacking buff outside of combat is a dumb design.

Thief isn't the only class that has effects like this though. That is one of the other issues.

an in my personal view they should all be change so that there only active in combat. over buffing yourself outside of combat is just dumb.

If they did it across the board I would be perfectly fine with it.

[Menyus.4610]

Me clicking on gw2 icon on desktop, see game has update

google ---> gw2 patch notes

Click on dec 11 release notes

scroll down to thief

see LA change

me close gw2

google --> good games for 2018 winterbreak