Holo/ENG, CC & Damage still to OP.. NERF IT!

zoopop.5630 · December 14, 2018

@Vieux P.1238 said:
@otto.5684 said:I think they should remove the CC from shockwave and everything should be okay.

It's a start..That kitten is Broken as Kitten. It's AoE is 360 Up Down & sideways..& no wall's or anything obstructs it. Gimmy some of that none obstruction advantage on my Damage skill's plz.

the skill is also beyond fucking easy to avoid and dodge. How are PEOPLE getting hit by this? Unless they coming out from stealth YOU shouldn't even be getting hit by it.

Vieux P.1238 · December 14, 2018

@zoopop.5630 said:
@Vieux P.1238 said:
@otto.5684 said:I think they should remove the CC from shockwave and everything should be okay.

It's a start..That kitten is Broken as Kitten. It's AoE is 360 Up Down & sideways..& no wall's or anything obstructs it. Gimmy some of that none obstruction advantage on my Damage skill's plz.

the skill is also beyond kitten easy to avoid and dodge. How are PEOPLE getting hit by this? Unless they coming out from stealth YOU shouldn't even be getting hit by it.

Funny how Holo mains keep saying how easy it is to avoid CC when they can chain a hole bunch of cc'S. Ok, if it's so EZ, tell me this, How do you avoid the first CC when it's done from stealth?

Solori.6025 · December 14, 2018

@zoopop.5630 said:
@Vieux P.1238 said:
@otto.5684 said:I think they should remove the CC from shockwave and everything should be okay.

It's a start..That kitten is Broken as Kitten. It's AoE is 360 Up Down & sideways..& no wall's or anything obstructs it. Gimmy some of that none obstruction advantage on my Damage skill's plz.

the skill is also beyond kitten easy to avoid and dodge. How are PEOPLE getting hit by this? Unless they coming out from stealth YOU shouldn't even be getting hit by it.

Stares in Spellbreaker

The V.8759 · December 14, 2018

Wow just read through this discussion and I've seen some good arguments going by.I'm an engineer main, but don't play holo that much. I dont get the 'engineer' feeling from it. That being said, I found that is it kind of overloaded. But yes, that is required since many other specialisation are also overloaded.In general, CC, boons and stability is handed out like sweet candy on many classes. Passive healing as well, such as the heal on cooling down photon forge. But it is needed at the moment.

Jn short: In my humble opinion, I would state that holo is balanced in comparison to most other top classes. That being said, the few top builds there are greatly overshadow core and even most HoT builds too much.

Psycoprophet.8107 · December 14, 2018

@Vieux P.1238 said:
@Naxos.2503 said:
@Vieux P.1238 said:
@Naxos.2503 said:
@herrmartell.7109 said:
@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

I dare to say they do need some nerfs.

But not just holos. In general, there are certain classes with too much CC, packed with too much boon & self healing. Compare that with other classes like Revenant & Necromancer, and it's just too kitten much. I'm not saying said classes don't have their own issues that should be addressed, but Holos are just too kitten much.

As I mentionned in another post of that nature, Holo is Very powerful, but Extremely brittle. It's most often down to impecable timing. Holo is powerful and can down a player but is not sustainable if he deals damage, and doesn't deal damage if it tries to stay sustainable.

Brittle? How does it keep sustaining it's self right in the middle of a zergfest or in a 1v1?

If it does sustain itself, it's at the cost of significant damage. As mentionned. It's biggest assets comes from -NON- Holo traits and skillsets. The removal of automatic Elixir S was one such sustain, thus severly diminishing that potential.

Holos are vulnerable to CC, and constantly carry massive tells whenever they play. They're easy to counter. The only way you Cannot counter a Holo is if they get the drop on you, and start with a knockback, which is not Something inherrent to Holos, warriors are capable of doing the same, and so do thieves : Namely classes with a known high damage output. Why holo cannot be considered a specialization that makes them on par with a DPS warrior or Thief is a mystery to me.

Every good players i faced use there huge CC followed by the huge attack with massive damage that takes 3/4 of your life points cuz your CC'ed FROM STEALTH MOD.

This^Earlier today there was a holo camping outside of the spawn camp. He one shot my ranger out of stealth,I had zero chance. I spawned again and sat on wall and watched him do it over and over until a 3vs1 ended him

Psycoprophet.8107 · December 14, 2018

It’s funny because a holo can do this,umm shouldn’t that be thief’s thing,oh wait that’s arents balance lol

Psycoprophet.8107 · December 14, 2018

DD or core are embarrassing compared to holo at its own job lol

mortrialus.3062 · December 14, 2018

@"Naxos.2503" said:Oh for crying out loud.
You do not base a Nerf on -One- build, if it affects All the other builds ! That was the point of my post. Again just because I play differently, doesn't mean I dont know how to play. I only play my Holo in competitive, and win slightly more than half of my matches, depending on what kind of team I face.
A nerf to damage affects All builds. A nerf to core abilities does too. It's a L2P issue, that much I agree on. Can we agree that I have My playstyle that I enjoy, and you have yours yet ?
If I can down a player using my rotation, it's successful. If it can be countered by most classes it's balanced. That should be simple.If we cant atleast be Civil, and you cant stop saying I dont know how to play, then go right ahead and tell me how better you fare. I have 37 matches won out 50, all 100% on engineer, pray tell, tell me how I dont know how to play my class.
Some of your points are obvious. In regard to warriors, that's an example that I already learned. Just because I've seen it once, doesn't mean I slam my head in the wall in the same manner. Doesn't make the argument any less valid. They can negate the entire chain if they so desire, that's the point of counter play.
I've said several times that I willingly choose to make my setup more brittle in order to get the "outrageous" damage everyone speaks of. It does the trick for me, because I know how to use it, and I can still be countered if I face someone with the right setup. I think that is Proper counterplay and thus doesn't need to be changed. One core issue with balances and nerfs is that people only look at the "offending" class, and never look at what all the other classes have available to counter it. When I face someone who Has the means to negate/mitigate/counter my damage and return my CC, I have a challenge. Sometime I fight players who also play a brittle class, and that when caught off guard get smushed, just as easily as I would, if I was caught off guard. There is Nothing wrong with that, if that is how people want to play and it yield results.

I fundamentally disagree with this entire philosophy. The number one goal of balance is to have a varied meta where every class has at least one build run on a meta level. Every other build that can be run as a side grade to the other in the context of PvP is gravy. Tasty gravy, but gravy. And the dream of a meta where everything is run at similarly effectiveness is a Utopian pipe dream.

At the end of the day, if one build is overperforming, the build should be adjusted. Almost by definition, builds that barely see play getting nerfed as a result of collateral damage will negatively impact less players compared to than letting over performing builds run wild.

To use an extreme example, a core condition engineer getting nerfed, basically impacts no one in this game. Almost no one is playing that build, almost no one will play it afterwords that nerfing it really doesn't impact anyone. Now, you shouldn't go around nerfing unused builds for the sake of kicking someone while they're down. But if a meta build abuses a core aspect and as a result is massively overperforming, then sadly the core ability needs to get nerfed for the sake of creating a healthier meta. It sucks, it's not fun for anyone, but it's what's actually important for the most number of players because one build running wild impacts everyone. The five or so core engineers caught in the crossfire are substantially less people and the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few.

Anyway, dunno how I feel about Holosmith at the moment. I do dislike the levels of self quickness conceptually but I'm happy to wait and see how the class settles after the Auto Elixir S nerf before saying anything.

Naxos.2503 · December 14, 2018

I'm still unsure why everyone insist Holo not to be able to do what other classes can. Warrior can CC insanely better and still retain more or less the same damage, can still be as tanky. Ranger and Thief, it's parent classes have a much stronger damage, from farther away, coupled with more sustain, even more so without Elixir S. Firebrand condi can inflict the same if not more condi, as can Necro, ontop of being much tankier..Holo in my eyes was a specialization that was based on Offense, just like Scrapper was based on Defense/support. This was meant to push the base engineer up, considering the only benefit an engineer has, is versatility, and is consistently outperformed in Every category by every other classes. Holosmith let engineer be able to deal damage on par with pistol/pistol thief, and have some heavy CC like a warrior. Scrapper now let it support groups better, so that it's barely usable, even if there are much better alternatives out there.

Are people just focusing on Engineer as "still that quirky class" and thus dont allow it to rival the other classes ? I have a significant amount of Power in my build, and my damage is still inferior to a warrior running the same gear. And they can still take hits better. If holo gets gutted without properly addressing the inherent Weakness of Scrapper and Core Engi (on Anything other than condi) exactly how is an engineer supposed to get by ? Rifle power can only get you so far, it's slow and wont replace the damage output of a photon forge combo, not to mention removing what little Might Holos can get would be blatantly unfair, considering the means to get such Might as a holosmith, let alone engineer is severly limited. I'd plead people to actually play as a holosmith to look and see if they honestly cant see other alternative to this raw damage, because that is all that Elite spec brings to core engineer and scrapper, and both are less than stelar when playing power based.

Lincolnbeard.1735 · December 14, 2018

The problem is that holo has the damage of a glass cannon and the survival of a tank.I would shave stab and vigor or a leap/blast.

Pengu.7481 · December 14, 2018

@Vieux P.1238 said:
@Naxos.2503 said:
@herrmartell.7109 said:
@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

I dare to say they do need some nerfs.

But not just holos. In general, there are certain classes with too much CC, packed with too much boon & self healing. Compare that with other classes like Revenant & Necromancer, and it's just too kitten much. I'm not saying said classes don't have their own issues that should be addressed, but Holos are just too kitten much.

As I mentionned in another post of that nature, Holo is Very powerful, but Extremely brittle. It's most often down to impecable timing. Holo is powerful and can down a player but is not sustainable if he deals damage, and doesn't deal damage if it tries to stay sustainable.

Brittle? How does it keep sustaining it's self right in the middle of a zergfest or in a 1v1?

thats the thing tho, only thing it got going is the high sustain, holo's die easy to a wellplaced burst (just like everything else in this game) its not the bunker sd/protection holo ure fighting , if u keep pressure up on holo and make them burn elixir S its much easier to down them now when they arent getting the second passive s to kite away/waste time to get healing skill back up etc, sure the new passive is nice and all but yday after burning my elixir s , a war cc'd me and 1 hit ko with 8.5k arcing slice while the new passive procced btw so yea xD

mortrialus.3062 · December 14, 2018

@toxic.3648 said:
@Vieux P.1238 said:
@Naxos.2503 said:
@herrmartell.7109 said:
@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

I dare to say they do need some nerfs.

But not just holos. In general, there are certain classes with too much CC, packed with too much boon & self healing. Compare that with other classes like Revenant & Necromancer, and it's just too kitten much. I'm not saying said classes don't have their own issues that should be addressed, but Holos are just too kitten much.

As I mentionned in another post of that nature, Holo is Very powerful, but Extremely brittle. It's most often down to impecable timing. Holo is powerful and can down a player but is not sustainable if he deals damage, and doesn't deal damage if it tries to stay sustainable.

Brittle? How does it keep sustaining it's self right in the middle of a zergfest or in a 1v1?

thats the thing tho, only thing it got going is the high sustain, holo's die easy to a wellplaced burst (just like everything else in this game) its not the bunker sd/protection holo ure fighting , if u keep pressure up on holo and make them burn elixir S its much easier to down them now when they arent getting the second passive s to kite away/waste time to get healing skill back up etc, sure the new passive is nice and all but yday after burning my elixir s , a war cc'd me and 1 hit ko with 8.5k arcing slice while the new passive procced btw so yea xD

I thought that was the entire point of Holosmith; it's supposed to be so high risk / high reward that it's in serious danger of blowing itself up. Instead it's sustain and defensive capabilities and synergies with Elixirs trait line makes it both top tier damage and great survivability, completely muscling out scrapper.

zoopop.5630 · December 14, 2018

@Vieux P.1238 said:
@zoopop.5630 said:
@Vieux P.1238 said:
@"otto.5684" said:I think they should remove the CC from shockwave and everything should be okay.

It's a start..That kitten is Broken as Kitten. It's AoE is 360 Up Down & sideways..& no wall's or anything obstructs it. Gimmy some of that none obstruction advantage on my Damage skill's plz.

the skill is also beyond kitten easy to avoid and dodge. How are PEOPLE getting hit by this? Unless they coming out from stealth YOU shouldn't even be getting hit by it.

Funny how Holo mains keep saying how easy it is to avoid CC when they can chain a hole bunch of cc'S. Ok, if it's so EZ, tell me this, How do you avoid the first CC when it's done from stealth?

MOST Classes RUN energy sigil, and AT least HAVE 1-2 Stun breaks. I play necro now and I have at least 2 stun breaks on my necro, Engi has 2, Mesmers Have More then 2 ways to avoid CC locks, Ele Have A buttload of ways to "dodge" and Break CC, Rangers Have an INSANE amount of stability Up time, Thiefs Have a few as well (however are very squishy so this might be 1 out of the few classes that should complain) over all. Every other Class shouldn't be getting CC lock by a single holo UNLESS you are just blowing through everything like a monkey on drugs or Running some sort off meta build that isn't even viable at all.

Btw "engi" main has noting to do with anything, I been playing necro more then anything lately and this class gets shitted on by almost everything in solo Q rank/unrank especially now with the nerf fb got. I just dont go around complaining or crying about every single thing about 1 Class after it got gutted to death from a balance patch few days ago. Holo AT the moment are Shit tier UNLESS you are playing Sword/Shield holo as a "bunker" which isn't the best selection for a side noder at the moment when you can have Mesmer/Rangers do that much better.

This entire Post is a L2P issue.

Naxos.2503 · December 14, 2018

I'd like to put Something else into perspective though : If the class was So imba that it basically Overperform over other classes, why isn't it more present during matches ?

Quick tally :Thief : Mandatory (Core Thief : rare / Daredevil : Very Frequent / Deadeye : Very Frequent)Ranger : Mandatory ( Core ranger : present / Druid : very rare / Soulbeast : Very Frequent)Engineer : Present (Core Engineer : very rare / Scrapper : Absent / Holosmith : Frequent)Mesmer : Very Frequent (Core Mesmer : present / Chronomancer : rare / Mirage : Very Frequent)Elementalist : Very Rare (Core Ele : Rare / Tempest : Absent / Weaver : Rare)Necromancer : Very Frequent (Core Necromancer : Absent / Reaper : present / Scourge : Very Frequent)Warrior : Mandatory (Core Warrior : Frequent / Berserker : Frequent / Spellbreaker : Frequent)Guardian : Very Frequent (Core Guardian : present / Dragonhunter : Frequent / Firebrand : FrequentRevenant : Very rare (Core Revenant : Absent / Herald : Very Rare / Renegade : Very rare)

All you do, by gutting Holo's damage, is reinforce the perspective that the master classes of PvP are Thieves, Rangers, Mesmer, Necromancer, Warrior and Guardian. It alls but make Engineer Impossible to play efficiently in PvP, just like Revenant and Elementalist are. Keep in mind that almost all of Engineer's setup require ground aiming, have avoidable turrets that can easily be destroyed, or require very specific conditions in order to perform well in PvP. Things that other classes dont have to deal with, said classes are in the "Master" classes of PvP. If the goal is to basically make PvP catter specifically to certain classes, then yes, gutting Holo will do so. If the goal is to make PvP more interesting, and give more choices to players as to how they want to go about things, then you actually Want Holo to deal some direct damage that doesn't require a ludicrous set of conditions in order to perform as well as other classes.

Now, taking away sustain is Something I'd personally be alright with : As long as it only impact Holos and not the other specs of Engineer. Engineer is niche enough as it is.

Ario.8964 · December 14, 2018

I'd like to see damage and cc reduced all around and holo is no exception. It definitely stands out in terms of cc output and forge damage is still a bit overtuned imo. However, other classes have a plethora of problems that need to be addressed as well or holo will drop out of meta with nerfs to damage and cc.

Cerioth.7062 · December 14, 2018

@"Naxos.2503" said:I'd like to put Something else into perspective though : If the class was So imba that it basically Overperform over other classes, why isn't it more present during matches ?
Quick tally :Thief : Mandatory (Core Thief : rare / Daredevil : Very Frequent / Deadeye : Very Frequent)Ranger : Mandatory ( Core ranger : present / Druid : very rare / Soulbeast : Very Frequent)Engineer : Present (Core Engineer : very rare / Scrapper : Absent / Holosmith : Frequent)Mesmer : Very Frequent (Core Mesmer : present / Chronomancer : rare / Mirage : Very Frequent)Elementalist : Very Rare (Core Ele : Rare / Tempest : Absent / Weaver : Rare)Necromancer : Very Frequent (Core Necromancer : Absent / Reaper : present / Scourge : Very Frequent)Warrior : Mandatory (Core Warrior : Frequent / Berserker : Frequent / Spellbreaker : Frequent)Guardian : Very Frequent (Core Guardian : present / Dragonhunter : Frequent / Firebrand : FrequentRevenant : Very rare (Core Revenant : Absent / Herald : Very Rare / Renegade : Very rare)
All you do, by gutting Holo's damage, is reinforce the perspective that the master classes of PvP are Thieves, Rangers, Mesmer, Necromancer, Warrior and Guardian. It alls but make Engineer Impossible to play efficiently in PvP, just like Revenant and Elementalist are. Keep in mind that almost all of Engineer's setup require ground aiming, have avoidable turrets that can easily be destroyed, or require very specific conditions in order to perform well in PvP. Things that other classes dont have to deal with, said classes are in the "Master" classes of PvP. If the goal is to basically make PvP catter specifically to certain classes, then yes, gutting Holo will do so. If the goal is to make PvP more interesting, and give more choices to players as to how they want to go about things, then you actually Want Holo to deal some direct damage that doesn't require a ludicrous set of conditions in order to perform as well as other classes.
Now, taking away sustain is Something I'd personally be alright with : As long as it only impact Holos and not the other specs of Engineer. Engineer is niche enough as it is.

I heavily disagree with your list. I see a TON of scrappers, core thieves, core engis are rare but not very. Chronos are still around too. Tempest are definitely not absent, and weavers are very frequent. Core necros have been favouried a lot lately as well. And heralds have been showing up a lot.

Naxos.2503 · December 14, 2018

@Cerioth.7062 said:
@"Naxos.2503" said:I'd like to put Something else into perspective though : If the class was So imba that it basically Overperform over other classes, why isn't it more present during matches ?
Quick tally :Thief : Mandatory (Core Thief : rare / Daredevil : Very Frequent / Deadeye : Very Frequent)Ranger : Mandatory ( Core ranger : present / Druid : very rare / Soulbeast : Very Frequent)Engineer : Present (Core Engineer : very rare / Scrapper : Absent / Holosmith : Frequent)Mesmer : Very Frequent (Core Mesmer : present / Chronomancer : rare / Mirage : Very Frequent)Elementalist : Very Rare (Core Ele : Rare / Tempest : Absent / Weaver : Rare)Necromancer : Very Frequent (Core Necromancer : Absent / Reaper : present / Scourge : Very Frequent)Warrior : Mandatory (Core Warrior : Frequent / Berserker : Frequent / Spellbreaker : Frequent)Guardian : Very Frequent (Core Guardian : present / Dragonhunter : Frequent / Firebrand : FrequentRevenant : Very rare (Core Revenant : Absent / Herald : Very Rare / Renegade : Very rare)
All you do, by gutting Holo's damage, is reinforce the perspective that the master classes of PvP are Thieves, Rangers, Mesmer, Necromancer, Warrior and Guardian. It alls but make Engineer Impossible to play efficiently in PvP, just like Revenant and Elementalist are. Keep in mind that almost all of Engineer's setup require ground aiming, have avoidable turrets that can easily be destroyed, or require very specific conditions in order to perform well in PvP. Things that other classes dont have to deal with, said classes are in the "Master" classes of PvP. If the goal is to basically make PvP catter specifically to certain classes, then yes, gutting Holo will do so. If the goal is to make PvP more interesting, and give more choices to players as to how they want to go about things, then you actually Want Holo to deal some direct damage that doesn't require a ludicrous set of conditions in order to perform as well as other classes.
Now, taking away sustain is Something I'd personally be alright with : As long as it only impact Holos and not the other specs of Engineer. Engineer is niche enough as it is.

I heavily disagree with your list. I see a TON of scrappers, core thieves, core engis are rare but not very. Chronos are still around too. Tempest are definitely not absent, and weavers are very frequent. Core necros have been favouried a lot lately as well. And heralds have been showing up a lot.

Hmm, disregard then, maybe it's a matter of brackets.

Regardless, I'd much rather see Holosmith's damage retained, considering that's what the specialization was based on, and there really isn't such a great alternative for engineers for direct damage. Instead, lowering it's sustain seems more logical, since it reinforce the original "edge" mentality it started with.I do fear that much of that sustain comes from Core engineer traits though, and that nerfing those would essentially nerf an already very difficult to play class.

herrmartell.7109 · December 14, 2018

I don't remember a match with no Holos in the past months. But hey, maybe that's just me.

zoopop.5630 · December 14, 2018

@herrmartell.7109 said:I don't remember a match with no Holos in the past months. But hey, maybe that's just me.

Ya, and after the balance patch they aren't around as much as they were a month ago. Theirs only 1 build on holo at the moment that i'm aware of that's even consider solid to play..... Holo went from 2 builds being meta into just 1 now and majority of the players don't even play it anymore because of the elixir S rework to elixir c.

If we can find/see a NEW rifle DPS build for holo then everyone complaining or crying about holo would have a legit reason to QQ but at the moment they shouldn't be complaining to much about a class that has 1 spec that isn't even consider meta lol.

mortrialus.3062 · December 15, 2018

@"Naxos.2503" said:I'd like to put Something else into perspective though : If the class was So imba that it basically Overperform over other classes, why isn't it more present during matches ?
Quick tally :Thief : Mandatory (Core Thief : rare / Daredevil : Very Frequent / Deadeye : Very Frequent)Ranger : Mandatory ( Core ranger : present / Druid : very rare / Soulbeast : Very Frequent)Engineer : Present (Core Engineer : very rare / Scrapper : Absent / Holosmith : Frequent)Mesmer : Very Frequent (Core Mesmer : present / Chronomancer : rare / Mirage : Very Frequent)Elementalist : Very Rare (Core Ele : Rare / Tempest : Absent / Weaver : Rare)Necromancer : Very Frequent (Core Necromancer : Absent / Reaper : present / Scourge : Very Frequent)Warrior : Mandatory (Core Warrior : Frequent / Berserker : Frequent / Spellbreaker : Frequent)Guardian : Very Frequent (Core Guardian : present / Dragonhunter : Frequent / Firebrand : FrequentRevenant : Very rare (Core Revenant : Absent / Herald : Very Rare / Renegade : Very rare)
All you do, by gutting Holo's damage, is reinforce the perspective that the master classes of PvP are Thieves, Rangers, Mesmer, Necromancer, Warrior and Guardian. It alls but make Engineer Impossible to play efficiently in PvP, just like Revenant and Elementalist are. Keep in mind that almost all of Engineer's setup require ground aiming, have avoidable turrets that can easily be destroyed, or require very specific conditions in order to perform well in PvP. Things that other classes dont have to deal with, said classes are in the "Master" classes of PvP. If the goal is to basically make PvP catter specifically to certain classes, then yes, gutting Holo will do so. If the goal is to make PvP more interesting, and give more choices to players as to how they want to go about things, then you actually Want Holo to deal some direct damage that doesn't require a ludicrous set of conditions in order to perform as well as other classes.
Now, taking away sustain is Something I'd personally be alright with : As long as it only impact Holos and not the other specs of Engineer. Engineer is niche enough as it is.

Prenerf at least I had no shortage of triple or even quadruple Holosmith matches in platinum. The top 250 leader boards had toooooons of Holosmith mains on it. Easily the most common class I saw in platinum tier.

daw.4923 · December 15, 2018

@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

well,war have another 50% nerf and 3 utility skills,holo have 9 utility skills,until these numbers will match,holo gona be broken. common,how can you holo players be so blind? you go invu,block,90% dmg resist,dodge,dodge,invis,leap,rampage on 50 sec cd....... insane.put some random burst from forge into that and you have perma uptime on def skills.

apharma.3741 · December 15, 2018

@zoopop.5630 said:
@herrmartell.7109 said:I don't remember a match with no Holos in the past months. But hey, maybe that's just me.

Ya, and after the balance patch they aren't around as much as they were a month ago. Theirs only 1 build on holo at the moment that i'm aware of that's even consider solid to play..... Holo went from 2 builds being meta into just 1 now and majority of the players don't even play it anymore because of the elixir S rework to elixir c.

If we can find/see a NEW rifle DPS build for holo then everyone complaining or crying about holo would have a legit reason to QQ but at the moment they shouldn't be complaining to much about a class that has 1 spec that isn't even consider meta lol.

Yes, it's almost like there were so many people playing holo because it was insanely strong and now it's been toned down a little they want to play the next EZ mode carry.

Expect to see loads of scepter mesmers and boonbeasts probably not as many holos but still be well represented.

XECOR.2814 · December 15, 2018

@Naxos.2503 said:
@herrmartell.7109 said:
@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

I dare to say they do need some nerfs.

But not just holos. In general, there are certain classes with too much CC, packed with too much boon & self healing. Compare that with other classes like Revenant & Necromancer, and it's just too kitten much. I'm not saying said classes don't have their own issues that should be addressed, but Holos are just too kitten much.

As I mentionned in another post of that nature, Holo is Very powerful, but Extremely brittle. It's most often down to impecable timing. Holo is powerful and can down a player but is not sustainable if he deals damage, and doesn't deal damage if it tries to stay sustainable.

If holo is brittle then what is reaper? Dont you get some mobility and survivability in engi kit? Wouldnt nerfing damage on reaper will kill the spec more so than holo as essentially its a supersanic version of it?

Anet still nerfs it. Hence i assume they will nerf holo.

Crozame.4098 · December 15, 2018

@Naxos.2503 said:
@herrmartell.7109 said:
@Naxos.2503 said:
@herrmartell.7109 said:
@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.

I dare to say they do need some nerfs.

But not just holos. In general, there are certain classes with too much CC, packed with too much boon & self healing. Compare that with other classes like Revenant & Necromancer, and it's just too kitten much. I'm not saying said classes don't have their own issues that should be addressed, but Holos are just too kitten much.

As I mentionned in another post of that nature, Holo is Very powerful, but Extremely brittle. It's most often down to impecable timing.

The problem is that experience says that other classes cannot outperform a Holo even with the very same impecable timing.

Holo is powerful and can down a player but is not sustainable if he deals damage, and doesn't deal damage if it tries to stay sustainable.

For example, an ele cannot decide if he wants to deal high damage or become sustainable, and swap between the two in the middle of a fight. And thereis were you see the inherent over power in the Holo, as they are given that choice, whereas other classes must pick 1 and are stuck with that for the rest of the battle. It just seems that the tradeoffs put on the Holo are not punishing enough as with the rest.

I'd actually consider Eles out of all classes to Be able to do just that though, by Simply switching to attunements.

I do main a holo, I Constantly get screwed over by people's CC, pulls in particular are good at disrupting me, because they throw me off position, which is critical to perform well as a Holo. I'm also limited to -1- stunbreak with consequential cooldown, if I want to deal high damage. My only recourse is to chain a player to death by opening with a knockdown, Following with a bullethail to increase my condi damage, switch to sword pistol, use the big laser, glue shot so they stay in the field of fire, then finish with a sword jump, which gives me quickness.

In case that's not obvious this is Not a "Push 1 button = Win" like everyone makes it seems. This is a full rotation that if It is broken at Any point results in my death : because being interrupted screws with cooldown, throws me off balance, and generally switch the advantage entirely to the other side.

If someone stunbreak my initial opening, they generally proc a damage reflection which throws my bullet right at me, which, with my low HP (in order to deal damage) halves my healthbar.If someone dodges the laser burst, most of my damage from the chain is gone, and I have to duke it out with more than likely someone with a stronger, -More Reliable- damage ratio.

I've seen warriors Negate my Entire Chain of damage. Not dodge, Negate, they literally stand in front of me, invulnerable and caving my face in. Deadeyes can easily shoot me down Long before I can Start my chain. Mesmers are near impossible to get with that tactic. Rangers with longbows are the bane of my existence, with that instant long range Knock shot that screws my cooldown Every Time.I should also give the medal to scourges, which to this day, I have Never been able to beat in a one on one fight. Each time I see a scourge in the opposite team, I know that is a match I'll lose.

This high damage is not -easy-. It's Work. And it's faillible, otherwise I'd win my matches constantly.

Edit : Ignore the capital letter words, they're not meant to put emphasis, my keyboard automatically tries to correct words that arent french, and it tends to put capital letters Almost everywhere

I want to add Something since the main point of contention to everyone seems to be CC and damage.

Why nobody bothers Warriors about this ? They can kit their skills to Literally have all but their heal skill to do CC, most of them are Hard CC, Knockback, and Knockdown, and double as Damage. Why is that fine on warrior but isn't on Holo ? The actual Reason is that warriors dont rely on CC in competitive matches. If they did, you would not complain about Holo's ability to chain 3 CCs at max, when a warrior can chain constant CCs.

As one of the post already made it quite clear, you indeed have l2p issues. You have stealth as well, learn to use it properly~

Naxos.2503 · December 15, 2018

@Crozame.4098 said:
@Naxos.2503 said:
@herrmartell.7109 said:
@Naxos.2503 said:
@herrmartell.7109 said:
@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:anyone saying holo needs more nerfs in the current meta is incredibly mistaken and should reevaluate their understanding of this game.