An open and Honest View of the game and the community(may contain spoilers)

[blackheartgary.8605]

Ok, for a moment now lets just drop the "it's just a game". Yada, yada, ya everyone knows. Even you wouldn't be posting if you didn't care about it and Jski complaining doesn't just have to do with people taking the game to seriously. He/She seriously has a point. I'm not sure about PvE now but in PvP ele has been on the low part of the totem pole since about PoF release. It's been over a year since PoF release. I'm not talking about the game being balanced, but how is it possible that ele has not been part of the meta since over a year of balance changes? Even if you don't take the game seriously, you have to question this. It is NOT just about this months balance changes. It is about the insanity of waiting over a year for different results but getting the same old same old. Not everyone likes playing a large variety of classes, so don't be telling Jski that he/she should have been prepared. For many, their enjoyment in this game is based on balance. I realize your wintersday isn't ruined, but maybe his/hers is? Maybe Jski literally however hard she/he tries can't physically have fun playing the game right now with the current changes. That doesn't necessarily mean she/he is taking the game to seriously as much as it simply means the game is no longer fun for him/her. Yes, it's possible to both not take the game seriously and no longer have fun. Maybe the best advice to give isn't "to not take the game so seriously" as much as wait till next year, come back to see if the game changed to the point of being fun for you, and then if it's not fun leave again. I don't agree with displaying a bad scene to new payers. However, I also don't necessarily think admiration should automatically be assumed instead of earned. Yes, people should take this game less seriously. However, that doesn't mean people literally don't quit the game because balance changes have caused them to loose their enthusiasm for the game. I never post anything negative because I want players to leave. I post because I want this game to head in a positive direction. Even though at many times it doesn't seem so, both the players and the devs are on the same team and both of them need to realize this.Rather than dive deep into this statement and like this or dislike that... I wanna say first I respect your opinion. it was well written, well thought out, and giving the time you had to this thread is kinda cool.that aside, you are right that i do care about the game. and perhaps i take it a wee bit more serious than i want to at times. Trust and believe me it's not my life or reason for existing. I just can't in all honesty sit by and watch people in the game i love so much being treated like dirt because someone got their feelings hurt due to a patch. i've seen it. i have seen it happen moreso on this patch than on others and maybe it is sour grapes... or maybe i am standing up for a community that i know isn't always like this. i will say that you are correct in stating that one class being overpowered for so long kind of made the other classes not as useful. and i think anet saw it as well, thus what is happening now. is it too far down the road? Not my call. Instead, I see this as an opportunity to really explore how all 9 classes can be utilized and how not one class should be totally relied upon. I agree that everyone has a different concept of what fun is, and yeah i get it... someone's idea of "fun" might be hindered because the build had to change. But don't get it twisted... I still believe that people should treat this patch the same way they treat the others. adjust yourself to the changes or play another class or walk away and take a break. what people should NOT do? bring the rest of the community down with their dislike over something they have experienced. the idea is to progress and evolve, not backpedal and discourage. Thank you for the response.

[Xstein.2187]

@"blackheartgary.8605" said:

Ok, for a moment now lets just drop the "it's just a game". Yada, yada, ya everyone knows. Even you wouldn't be posting if you didn't care about it and Jski complaining doesn't just have to do with people taking the game to seriously. He/She seriously has a point. I'm not sure about PvE now but in PvP ele has been on the low part of the totem pole since about PoF release. It's been over a year since PoF release. I'm not talking about the game being balanced, but how is it possible that ele has not been part of the meta since over a year of balance changes? Even if you don't take the game seriously, you have to question this. It is NOT just about this months balance changes. It is about the insanity of waiting over a year for different results but getting the same old same old. Not everyone likes playing a large variety of classes, so don't be telling Jski that he/she should have been prepared. For many, their enjoyment in this game is based on balance. I realize your wintersday isn't ruined, but maybe his/hers is? Maybe Jski literally however hard she/he tries can't physically have fun playing the game right now with the current changes. That doesn't necessarily mean she/he is taking the game to seriously as much as it simply means the game is no longer fun for him/her. Yes, it's possible to both not take the game seriously and no longer have fun. Maybe the best advice to give isn't "to not take the game so seriously" as much as wait till next year, come back to see if the game changed to the point of being fun for you, and then if it's not fun leave again. I don't agree with displaying a bad scene to new payers. However, I also don't necessarily think admiration should automatically be assumed instead of earned. Yes, people should take this game less seriously. However, that doesn't mean people literally don't quit the game because balance changes have caused them to loose their enthusiasm for the game. I never post anything negative because I want players to leave. I post because I want this game to head in a positive direction. Even though at many times it doesn't seem so, both the players and the devs are on the same team and both of them need to realize this.Rather than dive deep into this statement and like this or dislike that... I wanna say first I respect your opinion. it was well written, well thought out, and giving the time you had to this thread is kinda cool.that aside, you are right that i do care about the game. and perhaps i take it a wee bit more serious than i want to at times. Trust and believe me it's not my life or reason for existing. I just can't in all honesty sit by and watch people in the game i love so much being treated like dirt because someone got their feelings hurt due to a patch. i've seen it. i have seen it happen moreso on this patch than on others and maybe it is sour grapes... or maybe i am standing up for a community that i know isn't always like this. i will say that you are correct in stating that one class being overpowered for so long kind of made the other classes not as useful. and i think anet saw it as well, thus what is happening now. is it too far down the road? Not my call. Instead, I see this as an opportunity to really explore how all 9 classes can be utilized and how not one class should be totally relied upon. I agree that everyone has a different concept of what fun is, and yeah i get it... someone's idea of "fun" might be hindered because the build had to change. But don't get it twisted... I still believe that people should treat this patch the same way they treat the others. adjust yourself to the changes or play another class or walk away and take a break. what people should NOT do? bring the rest of the community down with their dislike over something they have experienced. the idea is to progress and evolve, not backpedal and discourage. Thank you for the response.

Thank you for the reply. Don't get me wrong either, I pretty much agree with everything you said. In fact, I believe your original post needed to be said and was beneficial to me as well. I just wanna be careful not to dress a wolf in sheep's clothing so to speak. Thank you for the input.

[Deimos.4263]

The game is horribly broken! The festive lamps in the pvp lobby have BOWS and the ones in my guild hall do not. :(

[Zlater.6789]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:

There is a lack of real comment for the dev. them self who made each chose

they need to come out and say why they did the chose they made and the chose they did not make.

<--emphasis added.

This comment, quite honestly, took my breath away. Do you truly believe that developers should justify each decision? Should explain in detail why they did [one thing] and why they did not do [potentially countless alternatives]? Do you feel it would be productive to spend the many, many hours that would be required to discuss each of the changes they made? I am leery of such a process, especially when I know decisions are made based on dev observations, instincts, statistical analysis, extensive development and gaming experience, and an

consistent, overall view of the game

. (Keep in mind that few of us players truly view the game as a whole. As the OP said, we frequently want buffs for us, and nerfs for others.)

I believe that engaging with our players is good, and valuable, and highly desirable. I love it when we can post information about skill changes, as in the 12/11 update notes -- that's a great thing. I am delighted when a dev can get into a discussion on the forums, but I also know that devs read the forums more often than they post, and they keep up on player thoughts on a daily basis. But they need to develop, improve, hone, and expand the game, and I believe they post when they are able. But in the end, I believe they should spend the majority of their time and focus

making the game

and not

talking about making the game.

To do otherwise -- to get involved in the constant back-and-forth of explanation, question, justification, and counter-demand that the comment above appears to demand -- seems destined to lead to a complete lack of forward progress.

I honestly think that I can prove you're wrong.

The biggest thing right now that is scaring people away from AAA rated games is this idea of disconnected developers and players. Its not just gaming though, its for numbers of markets everywhere. Look at the problems coming from, Dice or Youtube which has mostly been attributed to Disconnected Users and Developers.

Now look at studios like Epic games for example who must literally put it as their #1 company philosophy. Talking to customers is their thing, its not a mistake they are one of the most popular games of all time. All of the following are reddit thread topics made by epic from the last 24hrs.

Deep discussion with the community about a new system they are implementing:https://www.reddit.com/r/FORTnITE/comments/a67hrw/design_chat_armor_in_v710/?utm_source=reddit-android

Apology addressed to community for accidently releasing a crazy OP gun:https://www.reddit.com/r/FortNiteBR/comments/a67482/infinity_blade_vaulted/?utm_source=reddit-android

Update on a bug for fortnite mobile users:https://www.reddit.com/r/FortNiteMobile/comments/a6bkzm/update_for_players_still_missing_hud_on_mobile/?utm_source=reddit-android

Thats just on reddit alone, 3 new thread topics with additional threads there that Epic created to reiterate current points on other sub reddits. Fortnite is a no nonsense game, it doesnt necessarily deliver the best content, but it definately delivers the best customer service. League of Legends has a similar reputation, and it has very similar results.

You might think that content creation is more important than customer service, but unfortunately the evidence states otherwise. (Unfortunately because I wish I were wrong)

Gw2 has an ok balance between the 2. I think though that the marketing and pr guys are a little too cautious to push so hard for customer service, because that to you might mean sacraficing game development time. Also because last time there was no significant content, post HoT, it wasnt too great for anyone.I do however believe that outstanding customer service also has a positive finiancial consequence, and I think it will instead enable the creation of even more content than there is now. However I'm in no place to comment on that conclusively.

Either way I think you do an alright job. Thanks for your hard work regardless.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Hmm, as far as I could see, those Epic thread each consisted on the opening post only, or the opening post and one other comment from Epic.Seems ArenaNet posts a few comments per day, as well.

[Zaklex.6308]

@Jski.6180 said:

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

There is a lack of real comment for the dev. them self who made each chose

they need to come out and say why they did the chose they made and the chose they did not make.

<--emphasis added.

This comment, quite honestly, took my breath away. Do you truly believe that developers should justify each decision? Should explain in detail why they did [one thing] and why they did not do [potentially a dozen alternatives]? Do you feel it would be productive to spend the many, many hours that would be required to discuss each of the changes they made, when decisions are made based on their observations, instincts, statistical analysis, extensive development and gaming experience, and an consistent, overall view of the game. (Keep in mind that few of us players truly view the game as a whole. As the OP said, we frequently want buffs for us, and nerfs for others.)

I believe that engaging with our players is good, and valuable, and highly desirable. I know that devs read the forums, and they keep up on player thoughts on a daily basis. But they need to develop, improve, hone, and expand the game, and I believe they post when they are able. But in the end, I believe they should spend the majority of their time and focus

making the game

and not

talking about making the game.

To do otherwise -- to get involved in the constant back-and-forth of explanation, question, justification, and counter-demand that the comment above seems to seek -- seems destined to lead to a complete lack of forward progress.

When there are big changes yes they need to justify is small things not so much. If you remove an effect from a class comply there got to be some thinking and reason for this. I am not trying to be mean about this but when example (its always going to be ele or scraper with me sry) Tempest Defense loses is Shocking Aura and becomes a stronger stun cc effect Stormsoul 33% longer stuns the dev. who did this needs to say why a def effect on ele was to much and why better stuns will help the class out. I have a scraper effect that was given a major changes as well but your not the right person to bring these to and i do not think to you to explain these things.

On the forms there only engagement from you and we all love you to death for it and that seems to be your main job. Are you able to talk for the other devs? Engagement needs to go both ways the player base like to know if there points of views are on the way devs want this game to move, are they silly points of views, are they crazy? Its not about every small thing its about major over all changes and what the point of the class is because right now only a few classes seem to have a real point.

I kind of feel like we need new class mission statements as the old core classes and elite spec. are very different.

@Danikat.8537 said:

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

There is a lack of real comment for the dev. them self who made each chose

they need to come out and say why they did the chose they made and the chose they did not make.

<--emphasis added.

This comment, quite honestly, took my breath away. Do you truly believe that developers should justify each decision? Should explain in detail why they did [one thing] and why they did not do [potentially countless alternatives]? Do you feel it would be productive to spend the many, many hours that would be required to discuss each of the changes they made? I am leery of such a process, especially when I know decisions are made based on dev observations, instincts, statistical analysis, extensive development and gaming experience, and an

consistent, overall view of the game

. (Keep in mind that few of us players truly view the game as a whole. As the OP said, we frequently want buffs for us, and nerfs for others.)

I believe that engaging with our players is good, and valuable, and highly desirable. I love it when we can post information about skill changes, as in the 12/11 update notes -- that's a great thing. I am delighted when a dev can get into a discussion on the forums, but I also know that devs read the forums more often than they post, and they keep up on player thoughts on a daily basis. But they need to develop, improve, hone, and expand the game, and I believe they post when they are able. But in the end, I believe they should spend the majority of their time and focus

making the game

and not

talking about making the game.

To do otherwise -- to get involved in the constant back-and-forth of explanation, question, justification, and counter-demand that the comment above appears to demand -- seems destined to lead to a complete lack of forward progress.

Also, it often doesn't work. I'm a big believer in explaining things, I like to think that if I explain the circumstances and the reasoning behind the decision then we can have an informed conversation and it will help people understand why I reached the decision I did. And sometimes that works.

Sometimes it's...actually it's worse than talking to a brick wall because they rarely answer back. Even when it should be an extremely simple explanation, like "We can't do that because it's illegal." it doesn't help. On more than one occasion in my job I've been told that if the law won't allow a client to do whatever it is they want then I should have it changed. And in case you're wondering no, I don't work for the government. I'm in no position to get any law changed (or at least no more than any other citizen) but apparently telling someone a law exists makes me responsible for it.

I'm not saying that anyone on this forum is anywhere near that bad, just giving an example (and yes, it has been a long week) of the fact that having someone explain a decision doesn't mean you'll be happy or even that it will make any more sense, it's just as likely it will end up in a round of ultimately pointless arguing over whether or not it was the right decision, even long after it's been made and cannot be changed.

 Here's the problem that neither one of you want to acknowledge...the ONLY people that have COMPLETE data on the game at any moment in time is ArenaNet themselves, not any single player or a bunch of players.  DATA that is gathered constantly is the driving force behind almost if not ALL changes, if you do not think that ArenaNets data is correct then that is a PERCEPTION problem, something, somewhere in all that DATA is telling the Devs that there needs to be changes, so they make changes.  I personally do not play Raids or any sPvP, I do not follow Meta builds...I play that game as it was designed, to play it my way and have fun.  I do not need to follow any set rules to have fun, because fun is what you make yourself.

[Kraggy.4169]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

There is a lack of real comment for the dev. them self who made each chose

they need to come out and say why they did the chose they made and the chose they did not make.

<--emphasis added.

This comment, quite honestly, took my breath away. Do you truly believe that developers should justify each decision?

I wouldn't go that far, especially when it comes to discussing alternate solutions to the problem they saw which provoked them to change something, BUT with GW as with most other MMOs in my experience far too many highly controversial changes are made by 'devs' without any explanation or attempt to engage with the players who they KNOW they have negatively affected by some nerfbat hit or something , and that IMO is highly disrespectful of the people who actually pay then to develop the game.

As an example, WOW many years ago was in a far better place when it came to players acceptance of the unpalatable due to ENGAGEMENT Blizzard had with them via Ghostcrawler, a senior dev who went out of his way to engage in long and detailed discussions about changes which were often to the players' detriment; WOW went down the pan in this regard when GC left.

I've never seen any player engagement between Anet devs and the players remotely approaching that details and the game is poorer for it, Anet work more like the 'handing down tablets of stone' mode than player engagement.

[rabenpriester.7129]

I believe I kept your original message in tact as much as possible while working out why your argument was flawed by using hyperbole, thank you very much.If you see that as a direct quote just because I used that template to deliver my punchline, the problem is you not being able to understand my intent, but please don't project that inability on the whole community a. out of fear they, too, will not be clever enough and think you really said that or b. you want to delegitimize the rest of my argument and think the general audience of this thread is not clever enough to figure that out. :)

If anyone has a problem with how quotes work, change the system in the forums please so this isn't possible anymore.

@Kraggy.4169 said:As an example, WOW many years ago was in a far better place when it came to players acceptance of the unpalatable due to ENGAGEMENT Blizzard had with them via Ghostcrawler, a senior dev who went out of his way to engage in long and detailed discussions about changes which were often to the players' detriment; WOW went down the pan in this regard when GC left.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, read it up.

[Dreamreaver.4908]

Of course the balance patch ruined Wintersday. It's so obvious.

• Without permanent quickness, DPS has now dropped to zero. Literally zero damage PER snowball. 50% faster group-wide makes a huge difference.• With more people dropping their mesmers, that means less Alacrity, which means you can't jump nearly as often to finish the Winter Wonderland JP in time.• And how does one even expect to survive Toypocalypse without decent Protection upkeep?

Addressing the real issues here.

[rabenpriester.7129]

@blackheartgary.8605 said:

3. if you are not having fun try something else

Community: Well, this just isn't fun anymore [here is why], and it gets less fun from patch to patch, the direction is clear [here is why]. So we stop playing the game. Now you complain that we follow your advice.

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

Respecting developers is very good, fair, and appropriate behavior. I'm not saying one must agree with everything they do, and I definitely don't mean to suggest that we ascribe to them a wealth of god-like powers, but respecting their perspective, effort, experience, and the knowledge they put into their work is spot on.

If you respect your players, they will respect you. It's as easy as that.

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

I believe that engaging with our players is good, and valuable, and highly desirable. I love it when we can post information about skill changes, as in the 12/11 update notes -- that's a great thing. I am delighted when a dev can get into a discussion on the forums, but I also know that devs read the forums more often than they post, and they keep up on player thoughts on a daily basis. But they need to develop, improve, hone, and expand the game, and I believe they post when they are able. But in the end, I believe they should spend the majority of their time and focus making the game and not talking about making the game. To do otherwise -- to get involved in the constant back-and-forth of explanation, question, justification, and counter-demand that the comment above appears to demand -- seems destined to lead to a complete lack of forward progress.

[Removed because some thought I was not respecting Gaile Gray enough here]

@spartan.9421 said:

And the devs all have a life too. They should not spend every waking hour catering to the player base

I expect them to spend every working hour catering to the player base, not every waking hour.

@Zaklex.6308 said:

Here's the problem that neither one of you want to acknowledge...the ONLY people that have COMPLETE data on the game at any moment in time is ArenaNet themselves, not any single player or a bunch of players. DATA that is gathered constantly is the driving force behind almost if not ALL changes, if you do not think that ArenaNets data is correct then that is a PERCEPTION problem, something, somewhere in all that DATA is telling the Devs that there needs to be changes, so they make changes.

May I introduce you to one of the bigger problems of our modern world: Having lots of data, but no one to interpret that data correctly. Cut out irrelevant statements from that btw, also you might want to learn how to format your post to make it readable.

Also, mind explaining how exactly anet does this, balance based on gathered data? You seem to have insider knowledge on that.

@jbrother.1340 said:

If you are not being paid to develop this game you get to demand nothing. This is not your creative lively hood. This is NOT your art. You can disagree with the artist all day long but in the end you did not apply the brush to canvas you did not suffer for or bleed for or chop of parts of you for this, they did.

Let me be as blunt as possible here: If the devs of any medium I consume see it that way, I'm out. Period, and I'll never be coming back. This is first and foremost a product, not art - even though it may also be art. Also, you do realize you're dismissing all criticism in the history of humankind that they had of books, arts, movies, food, any hobby product ever, any service in any industry provided ever, and basically the whole idea that feedback exists at all.

I don't see devs being attacked here. Like, at all. So why do you act like it? Why do you think if you criticise the work of a dev, you criticise the dev themselves as human beings? That's not how any of this works, at all. Are you maybe projecting?

[sigur.9453]

I don't know what the purpose of this thread is. Don't be unhappy? Noone attacked any developer, yet this gets an anet reply? It's amazing that developers made this awesome stunt that their customers call themself gamers and apearantly should be glad that they are allowed to play their game? If I'm unhappy with a product, for whatever reason, and I feel the need to critizise that, I should be allowed to to this in a responsible matter. The other way would just be so stop consuming that product. It's for all the white knights here to deside which would be on a better business interest.

[rabenpriester.7129]

@sigur.9453 said:...

People in this thread seem to think criticism on the work of an unknown dev is an attack of the personal life of a specific dev. As someone who studies consumer laws (amongst others), some responses in this thread are baffling.

[Tsakhi.8124]

@rabenpriester.7129 said:

@"sigur.9453" said:...

People in this thread seem to think criticism on the work of an unknown dev is an attack of the personal life of a specific dev. As someone who studies consumer laws (amongst others), some responses in this thread are baffling.

Some of the things I see on this thread is not criticism, it's straight up being condescending. I guess I'm one of the condescending dolts, but eh. Okay, since you study consumer laws, answer me this: Say you were to sell a very complex, very nice bed, like something out of Star Trek, and there are lots of moving parts that will need to be replaced overtime. Are you saying that it's the company's job to maintain that bed after purchase, despite the fact you bought the bed "as is"? Same thing with this game: you agreed in the EULA that you agreed to terms and services, that includes the direction of the game. If at any time you have a problem, addressing the company is recommended, but pretty much saying that the devs are dumb, not paying attention, don't care, whatever is just a way to bring some pretty heavy dung on your head.

[rabenpriester.7129]

That's just such a mess of an argument with so many assumptions and bad comparisons I'm not even going to bother with it. :/Edit: it annoyed me, so i bothered with it. You guys can skip this while reading through the thread, the bottom line is that it has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.

Think of it as your win if you want.

Some of the things I see on this thread is not criticism, it's straight up being condescending.

Link or we can't discuss it.

I guess I'm one of the condescending dolts, but eh.

Self-deprecation to garner sympathy.

Okay, since you study consumer laws, answer me this:

The following is not a law-related question, you aim at morals.

Say you were to sell a very complex, very nice bed, like something out of Star Trek, and there are lots of moving parts that will need to be replaced overtime.

This is a faulty comparison. A game is not a bed, nor is the maintenance equal to patches and balance updates. If you "buy a game" it's also not as if you'd "buy a bed". With one, you purchase the rights to use something, with the other you purchase a thing. Different contracts => faulty comparison.

Are you saying that it's the company's job to maintain that bed after purchase, despite the fact you bought the bed "as is"?

If you want me to go into specifics ("since you study consumer laws"), I have to disappoint you. The basics alone on this topic would be way too much, and it would only be true for the country I am living in (quick reminder that I'm not talking in my native language to you right now, it's a bit complicated). :)It makes a difference whether you purchase from a company or a private seller, though. I mention this because you mentioned "as is", which is, at least for me, associated with a purchase from a private person and implicates different buyer rights. Warranties exist, but to get what they cover you'd have to go in-depth which I won't do here. I still don't get why we are talking about beds, though. At least I strictly do here, because this has nothing to do with a game (see above); even if you beg to differ:

Same thing with this game:

A bed is still not a game, and faulty comparisons are still fallacies.

you agreed in the EULA that you agreed to terms and services, that includes the direction of the game.

True, even though EULA vs law is a topic that is not brought up enough. Just because I agreed to something in an EULA does not mean it is legally binding.

If at any time you have a problem, addressing the company is recommended,

Sweet.

but pretty much saying that the devs are dumb, not paying attention, don't care, whatever is just a way to bring some pretty heavy dung on your head.

I don't think anybody says this, because it will get deleted. Some people are saying the devs do a bad job, which makes these people lose their enjoyment and their enthusiasm. This, alone, is valid for me. Some go one step further and explain why they lose their joy, coupled with in-depth balance explanations. Respect your players there, and don't dismiss it so easily both in feelings and knowledge.

The gw2 community is one of the tamest, friendliest ever. I don't necessarily mean that in a positive way. Critique might be valid, even though it is expressed a bit rough around the edges. Not being able to learn from them because they get autocensored or feel attacked on a personal level for your creation does not sound professional to me. Painting invested players as toxic because they know their classes and game and can explain what - from their PoV - feels terrible to play is just bad conduct.

If I feel the game is not fun, I'm allowed to say that and why it feels that way. That's a win for both me and the devs. If not, I'm out, and that's a loss for me and the dev, too. And boy does the game feel bad at the moment in certain modes at a certain skill level.

[Tsakhi.8124]

@"rabenpriester.7129" said:That's just such a mess of an argument with so many assumptions and bad comparisons I'm not even going to bother with it. :/

Think of it as your win if you want

I have no desire to win ANYTHING. I'm sorry that I don't make sense to you, I get that a lot. So keep your "win", I don't want it.

[Vision.7265]

@blackheartgary.8605 said:Hello.Guild wars 2 is a GAME. it's supposed to be FUN. if you stop having fun it becomes a job. it becomes work.

100% Yes. I don't come home from work to work again. This game has been a great wind down from everyday responsibilities.

I'm thankful for everyone's hard work @ Anet as well as the engagement of the community.

I'll just purchase digital items in our shared, imaginary world and hop around the vast expanse of Tyria & Elona.

[sigur.9453]

@XYLO.7031 said:

@blackheartgary.8605 said:Hello.Guild wars 2 is a GAME. it's supposed to be FUN. if you stop having fun it becomes a job. it becomes work.

100% Yes. I don't come home from work to work again. This game has been a great wind down from everyday responsibilities.

I'm thankful for everyone's hard work @ Anet as well as the engagement of the community.

I'll just purchase digital items in our shared, imaginary world and hop around the vast expanse of Tyria & Elona.

That's one of the "arguments" I have a problem with. If the game is fun and if its changed in a way that it's no more fun for you. (you know, fun is different for everyone) Who's fault is it? And to add, not that I think the devs are not doing a good job, but hard work =/= good work automatically. Some things can and should be critizised.

[Belorn.2659]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

There is a lack of real comment for the dev. them self who made each chose

they need to come out and say why they did the chose they made and the chose they did not make.

<--emphasis added.

This comment, quite honestly, took my breath away. Do you truly believe that developers should justify each decision? Should explain in detail why they did [one thing] and why they did not do [potentially countless alternatives]? Do you feel it would be productive to spend the many, many hours that would be required to discuss each of the changes they made?

From listening to artists in other mediums, its usually not productive for the artist and the consumer of art to discuss the interpretation of art since the act of creating is by nature not the same as the act of experiencing. It is however very useful for an artist to describe their intention and the listener can describe their experience. The former create understanding (but can hurt the experience), and later improves the craft of the artist.

But in the end, I believe they should spend the majority of their time and focus making the game and not talking about making the game.

Show and don't tell is usually the best approach. I would however say that in the absent of both people will start to form their own ideas of what is going on. I would say that talking about making the game is second best when making the game get delayed.

[mauried.5608]

Why do people play games they DONT like ?

[Tsakhi.8124]

Self deprecation for sympathy? You misunderstand me: I know my shortcomings and I own up to them. I don't pretend that I am something I'm not... So, thanks for your assumptions, but you can take your assumptions along with your win.

Edit:Why link it when you were one of the people being churlish? And, also, you are a literal thinker, I am not. I still liked your comment because it was thorough and I do appreciate you taking the time to address it. Let me make one thing clear: I see that whole thing you deleted as condescending. I'm glad that you're considerate enough to amend it. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I can't sympathize. I can. It's just... I try looking at this, long term, not just a one shot crapshop. Things change, that's how we grow. I play all classes, so it's kind of a challenge for me to adapt to the changes.

@rabenpriester.7129

Sorry about that.

[jbrother.1340]

@Xstein.2187 said:

@"jbrother.1340" said:I think some of you are taking this a lot more seriously than you might think you are.

If it comes down to threads like this and endless debate back and forth how light of heart is it really?

It is a game just a game like many people here are saying.... For the players.

I think people sometimes lose sight of the fact that this is not a game for the developer (at least while they are on the clock) it is their lively hood.

Interaction with the community is good. It is one thing that many MMO style games in the past before this lack pretty badly. Sometimes it seems like arrogance getting in the way and other times it is a vitriolic community burning to the ground anyone who dares speak their own opinion even the people developing the game.

There is only one way about this.

If you are not being paid to develop this game you get to demand nothing. This is not your creative lively hood. This is NOT your art. You can disagree with the artist all day long but in the end you did not apply the brush to canvas you did not suffer for or bleed for or chop of parts of you for this, they did.

There needs to be a healthy separation between customers and providers. I work in a hospital. It is a far easier line to draw there but even then this same topic comes up a lot. How much is to much? We answer it with a simple equation that does not exactly apply here but I think could be in some fashion.

All of us no matter what we do here, do it for the patients no matter what. No matter how badly they act or how families treat us or how other staff treat us including my own uplines I am there for the patients and the patients alone. I suffer for them if I have to in order to ease their burden.

Give the staff a little slack for god sake. this is not all fun and games for them like it on our side as the players. if you take this so seriously you feel anger over it or see somehow you "investment" of time here as a tangible asset that can be invested in the long run for positive dividends you are fooling yourself. All you are entitled to here is the chance to play and be entertained if you can. If not I would question strongly why you log in and your basic level of sanity in your approach to the world.

Treat people like humans and with some respect even if they don't deserve it because you to will be laying in that proverbial hospital bed one day praying you get a nice nurse and a caring doctor to aid your journey.

I agree with most of your message. However, I think you're making a big assumption that value is only based on money. I think for many the game is worth more to them than what they paid for it. Just ask yourself how much someone would have to pay you to never play gw2 again. Should they take the game this seriously? Probably not, however, that is for the individual to decide. Let's say there are two people. One is a individual who quite his job, cut his hours, or didn't take overtime just so he could stream or play gw2, not for the money, but simply because he enjoyed it. The other is a dev who hates his job, doesn't enjoy the game, and is on the verge of quitting because amazon pays more. You're telling me the dev has more value in the game just because they get paid more? All it can take is one comment and the dev will be out of here to amazon. Meanwhile, you could offer the steamer $20,000 to quite gw2 and they would never take it. You think he is crazy for not taking the 20 grand since he only paid minimal money for it in the fist place? Would he be crazy not to take $1000? $100? $35 since the expansion only costs $30 now? Who cares? Everyone has a different level of enjoyment and value from this game and thats not crazy, it's normal.

You are confused as to what I was getting at. No one mentioned streaming or playing the game for money and even if the dev plays the game when they are on the clock their time is being bought for another purpose by the company they work for. Of course in the end it is voluntary choice of both the player and the worker. If I missed some mention of a professional player here my bad but I did not see it in this thread.People take this stuff to seriously regardless and regardless of how my opinion might sound it is just that. I guess if nothing else I feel lucky we can discuss and debate this in the first world as any of us could have been born in disgust and filth fighting for a clean drink of water each day. I take that stuff a lot more seriously than the enjoyment I get from this game. I really actually hope the people who work for this company don't actually hate their jobs and would never wish that on any of them as I have been in that position and it is really damaging and demeaning and not always something one can just get out from under quickly or easily.

I appreciate your example and I think people learn more in disagreement if they will just listen than everyone agreeing with each other all the time. There is just a growing, ever growing passive aggression around us both in these forums and at least in the space I am in out of the electronic realm here in the real world. I prefer confrontation to that. Thank you for stating your opinion directly.

[jbrother.1340]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@Nury.3062 said:I always say that we the players are the face of the game and even more us the veterans, we have to create and maintain a friendly atmosphere and attitude towards new players and always be helpful, helping the new players does help the game and can even bring future funding just by creating that atmosphere,the community is most of the times a major pro or con when choosing an MMO. While I see sometimes complains about the worsened community I agree but not to the degree that some believe and I think it's a bit worse on the US side than on EU but we are still one of the best MMO communities. So, to make it short, take care of the newbies and cultivate the positivity in them because if you are creating a negative environment and indirectly negative players, in the future you might encounter them in the content you usually do and you might be the target of the negativity you created.

I like this, particularly: Take care of the newbies; cultivate positivity. Words to live... or game... by. :+1:

I actually like this game a lot. I was not so great on the last version of these forums and can say I have tried a lot harder here to be more positive and respectful and as someone who is naturally cynical more than positive it is a great place for me to practice. I fail often but keep trying.

I do think more positive engagements in real life would be healthy for our race right now but in the long run that won't solve the problems just because we keep smiling and hoping for the best. It takes hard work and sacrifice.

One thing is for certain that we agree on. One must take care of the weak (in this case the newb's in game) so that they can grow and learn and thrive. Without the strong protecting the weak all that is left in the end is wolves eating wolves. We all have it in us if we choose it to be protectors of those that are smaller than us and uplift that which is beautiful and worthy. I won't stop trying even when I fail and I will keep coming back here to play this game and participate until all is lost. I will continue to try and be pragmatically positive.

This is one of the most open and inviting gaming communities I have been able to find on the internet at this point in history.

[Tsakhi.8124]

@jbrother.1340 said:

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@Nury.3062 said:I always say that we the players are the face of the game and even more us the veterans, we have to create and maintain a friendly atmosphere and attitude towards new players and always be helpful, helping the new players does help the game and can even bring future funding just by creating that atmosphere,the community is most of the times a major pro or con when choosing an MMO. While I see sometimes complains about the worsened community I agree but not to the degree that some believe and I think it's a bit worse on the US side than on EU but we are still one of the best MMO communities. So, to make it short, take care of the newbies and cultivate the positivity in them because if you are creating a negative environment and indirectly negative players, in the future you might encounter them in the content you usually do and you might be the target of the negativity you created.

I like this, particularly: Take care of the newbies; cultivate positivity. Words to live... or game... by. :+1:

I actually like this game a lot. I was not so great on the last version of these forums and can say I have tried a lot harder here to be more positive and respectful and as someone who is naturally cynical more than positive it is a great place for me to practice. I fail often but keep trying.

I do think more positive engagements in real life would be healthy for our race right now but in the long run that won't solve the problems just because we keep smiling and hoping for the best. It takes hard work and sacrifice.

One thing is for certain that we agree on. One must take care of the weak (in this case the newb's in game) so that they can grow and learn and thrive. Without the strong protecting the weak all that is left in the end is wolves eating wolves. We all have it in us if we choose it to be protectors of those that are smaller than us and uplift that which is beautiful and worthy. I won't stop trying even when I fail and I will keep coming back here to play this game and participate until all is lost. I will continue to try and be pragmatically positive.

This is one of the most open and inviting gaming communities I have been able to find on the internet at this point in history.

You are my hero! I admire your point of view and attitude in general. [showers you with thumbs up.]

[jbrother.1340]

@Tsakhi.8124 said:

@jbrother.1340 said:

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@Nury.3062 said:I always say that we the players are the face of the game and even more us the veterans, we have to create and maintain a friendly atmosphere and attitude towards new players and always be helpful, helping the new players does help the game and can even bring future funding just by creating that atmosphere,the community is most of the times a major pro or con when choosing an MMO. While I see sometimes complains about the worsened community I agree but not to the degree that some believe and I think it's a bit worse on the US side than on EU but we are still one of the best MMO communities. So, to make it short, take care of the newbies and cultivate the positivity in them because if you are creating a negative environment and indirectly negative players, in the future you might encounter them in the content you usually do and you might be the target of the negativity you created.

I like this, particularly: Take care of the newbies; cultivate positivity. Words to live... or game... by. :+1:

I actually like this game a lot. I was not so great on the last version of these forums and can say I have tried a lot harder here to be more positive and respectful and as someone who is naturally cynical more than positive it is a great place for me to practice. I fail often but keep trying.

I do think more positive engagements in real life would be healthy for our race right now but in the long run that won't solve the problems just because we keep smiling and hoping for the best. It takes hard work and sacrifice.

One thing is for certain that we agree on. One must take care of the weak (in this case the newb's in game) so that they can grow and learn and thrive. Without the strong protecting the weak all that is left in the end is wolves eating wolves. We all have it in us if we choose it to be protectors of those that are smaller than us and uplift that which is beautiful and worthy. I won't stop trying even when I fail and I will keep coming back here to play this game and participate until all is lost. I will continue to try and be pragmatically positive.

This is one of the most open and inviting gaming communities I have been able to find on the internet at this point in history.

You are my hero! I admire your point of view and attitude in general. [showers you with thumbs up.]

Believe me I am not a hero. I cannot always be positive. I just try. Hero's are all around us though. My wife is a hero, she can go and help people shower and wash them and cloth them in her job, can wipe their rear and do stuff I would be hard pressed to do. I do what I can to help but I am not sure I will ever do anything that should be considered heroic.

I appreciate the kind words though thank you! It is a daily struggle for me but I still think there are redeeming qualities in our race that are worth loving others for.

[Naxos.2503]

The only thing I fundamentally disagree with the devs on, is the way the consequence for players whose build they affect, in a very singular way.

When you change classes in depths frequently, players have to react in turn to adapt to those changes. Sometime, it's just a matter of tweaking a sigil. Sometime, it requires changing a full set of runes. Sometime the whole stats of the armor needs to be changed, plus the runes and the sigils. This has a cost that is non negligible to casual players, and a nuisance to more constant players.

I dont main a Mesmer, but I helped my girlfriend design a short and simple build that is fully support oriented. The runes, stats and sigils had a noticeable cost, around 20 gold or so, if I remember well. That's fine, you have to make expenses sometime. But the latest update removed most boonsharing abilities of the mesmer, making her build completely invalid and non-playable. Those 20 gold Investments are now a hindrance, because they not only no longer benefit her build, they hinder a change to get a new build. Thus, more gold needs to be spent, as playing content with a broken build is more complicated than it seems. My girlfriend plays casually. That change devasted her, and for a time, she didn't know how best to react, especially considering now, she doesn't know what to build toward, since there will inevitably be another balance patch that comes, and will more than likely upset builds once more.

I agree, devs build their games, and dont need to justify why and how. I do however wish they could be a bit more considerate of some of those effects. As I pointed out before, the rune and sigil getting automatically salvaged is a Hindrance when it comes to gear turnover. It makes people have to get everything again, unless they're Lucky to have Ascended or Legendary Equipment which, let's face it, is not the case for everyone, and should NEVER be used as a benchmark.

That builds themselves change and fluctuate is not an issue, but the ease with which players can change their builds Is. Some of the changes recently make this harder, and so it punishes players even more when the build they use is rendered less efficient, or obsolete. When a player has to change the way they like to play due to changes they did not wish for, it upsets them, that's normal, and it's an expected thing, this is Nothing the devs should be worried about. But when it's harder for those players to adapt to a new way of playing, they get more upset, and this time, it's actually quite a bit justified. I hope that is Something the devs understand, and how it can explain some of the harsher words other players throw at themExplain does not necessarily mean condone of course.