how do people decide that mirage is op? (it's not op, a defense of the cyber bullied class)

[syszery.1592]

Holy Kitten... Reading such a long text is so tormenting and these weird arguments confuse me...

[DeadlySynz.3471]

It's all about rock, paper, scissors. Every class/build in the game has a hard counter; except for 1, Mirages. Even thiefs are semi-predictable, but Mirages on the other hand have no direct counter. What class out there exists that when a Mirage player looks at it, thinks to themselves "oh crap, it's over". There is none. There needs to be some sort of build out there that even in the hands of a terrible player, would wipe the floor with an expert Mirage player with ease. That needs to exist to bring them in line.

[Solori.6025]

@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:It's all about rock, paper, scissors. Every class/build in the game has a hard counter; except for 1, Mirages. Even thiefs are semi-predictable, but Mirages on the other hand have no direct counter. What class out there exists that when a Mirage player looks at it, thinks to themselves "oh kitten, it's over". There is none. There needs to be some sort of build out there that even in the hands of a terrible player, would wipe the floor with an expert Mirage player with ease. That needs to exist to bring them in line.

What class does that for soulbeast? Or Holo?

[Math.5123]

@Fortus.6175 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

Mirages play-rate 1400+ rating is 14%. This means that there's almost one and a half Mirages in each and every game. (Data comes from BenP)

Care to post your source? Cant find it on the dev tracker, and if it was said in stream, a link would be nice. Also, I highly doubt thats the case, and if it was, it probably is old info, but then again, even though I ended in plat 2 last season, placements put me in gold 2 and I'm slowly going up atm, but I can tell you, that from last season and this one, 2-3 is the norm.

@Zenix.6198 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@"incisorr.9502" said:(...) I know cause i knew the names of every played in top 50-100 and their main classes and what they played (...)

Source: Dude, trust me.

Ye, it's a really tough choice.On one hand, you have the statistical data from an Anet employee.On the other, one dude who "just knows"......

I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they have to deliver, otherwise they just start losing credibility..... and this forum is a small town, most people at this point know each other and call each other by name, so its not good to taint your reputation.

Trichons community PvP discord, BenP is in it. I can post a screenshot I guess if you really want it.

Yes I do please, thanks.

https://i.imgur.com/LGvUdsx.png

Edit, on my phone abroad. Best I can do without a computer.

[mortrialus.3062]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

Mirages play-rate 1400+ rating is 14%. This means that there's almost one and a half Mirages in each and every game. (Data comes from BenP)

Care to post your source? Cant find it on the dev tracker, and if it was said in stream, a link would be nice. Also, I highly doubt thats the case, and if it was, it probably is old info, but then again, even though I ended in plat 2 last season, placements put me in gold 2 and I'm slowly going up atm, but I can tell you, that from last season and this one, 2-3 is the norm.

@Zenix.6198 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@"incisorr.9502" said:(...) I know cause i knew the names of every played in top 50-100 and their main classes and what they played (...)

Source: Dude, trust me.

Ye, it's a really tough choice.On one hand, you have the statistical data from an Anet employee.On the other, one dude who "just knows"......

I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they have to deliver, otherwise they just start losing credibility..... and this forum is a small town, most people at this point know each other and call each other by name, so its not good to taint your reputation.

Trichons community PvP discord, BenP is in it. I can post a screenshot I guess if you really want it.

Yes I do please, thanks.

https://i.imgur.com/LGvUdsx.png

Edit, on my phone abroad. Best I can do without a computer.

It's stupid that ben will post this in your crappy little discord server and not on the public forums were people can get this information.

[Math.5123]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

Mirages play-rate 1400+ rating is 14%. This means that there's almost one and a half Mirages in each and every game. (Data comes from BenP)

Care to post your source? Cant find it on the dev tracker, and if it was said in stream, a link would be nice. Also, I highly doubt thats the case, and if it was, it probably is old info, but then again, even though I ended in plat 2 last season, placements put me in gold 2 and I'm slowly going up atm, but I can tell you, that from last season and this one, 2-3 is the norm.

@Zenix.6198 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@"incisorr.9502" said:(...) I know cause i knew the names of every played in top 50-100 and their main classes and what they played (...)

Source: Dude, trust me.

Ye, it's a really tough choice.On one hand, you have the statistical data from an Anet employee.On the other, one dude who "just knows"......

I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they have to deliver, otherwise they just start losing credibility..... and this forum is a small town, most people at this point know each other and call each other by name, so its not good to taint your reputation.

Trichons community PvP discord, BenP is in it. I can post a screenshot I guess if you really want it.

Yes I do please, thanks.

https://i.imgur.com/LGvUdsx.png

Edit, on my phone abroad. Best I can do without a computer.

It's stupid that ben will post this in your crappy little discord server and not on the public forums were people can get this information.

The "crappy little server" has over 1k active users.

[mortrialus.3062]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

Mirages play-rate 1400+ rating is 14%. This means that there's almost one and a half Mirages in each and every game. (Data comes from BenP)

Care to post your source? Cant find it on the dev tracker, and if it was said in stream, a link would be nice. Also, I highly doubt thats the case, and if it was, it probably is old info, but then again, even though I ended in plat 2 last season, placements put me in gold 2 and I'm slowly going up atm, but I can tell you, that from last season and this one, 2-3 is the norm.

@Zenix.6198 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@"incisorr.9502" said:(...) I know cause i knew the names of every played in top 50-100 and their main classes and what they played (...)

Source: Dude, trust me.

Ye, it's a really tough choice.On one hand, you have the statistical data from an Anet employee.On the other, one dude who "just knows"......

I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they have to deliver, otherwise they just start losing credibility..... and this forum is a small town, most people at this point know each other and call each other by name, so its not good to taint your reputation.

Trichons community PvP discord, BenP is in it. I can post a screenshot I guess if you really want it.

Yes I do please, thanks.

https://i.imgur.com/LGvUdsx.png

Edit, on my phone abroad. Best I can do without a computer.

It's stupid that ben will post this in your crappy little discord server and not on the public forums were people can get this information.

The "crappy little server" has over 1k active users.

So? That information should be publicly available.

[Math.5123]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

Mirages play-rate 1400+ rating is 14%. This means that there's almost one and a half Mirages in each and every game. (Data comes from BenP)

Care to post your source? Cant find it on the dev tracker, and if it was said in stream, a link would be nice. Also, I highly doubt thats the case, and if it was, it probably is old info, but then again, even though I ended in plat 2 last season, placements put me in gold 2 and I'm slowly going up atm, but I can tell you, that from last season and this one, 2-3 is the norm.

@Zenix.6198 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@"incisorr.9502" said:(...) I know cause i knew the names of every played in top 50-100 and their main classes and what they played (...)

Source: Dude, trust me.

Ye, it's a really tough choice.On one hand, you have the statistical data from an Anet employee.On the other, one dude who "just knows"......

I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they have to deliver, otherwise they just start losing credibility..... and this forum is a small town, most people at this point know each other and call each other by name, so its not good to taint your reputation.

Trichons community PvP discord, BenP is in it. I can post a screenshot I guess if you really want it.

Yes I do please, thanks.

https://i.imgur.com/LGvUdsx.png

Edit, on my phone abroad. Best I can do without a computer.

It's stupid that ben will post this in your crappy little discord server and not on the public forums were people can get this information.

The "crappy little server" has over 1k active users.

So? That information should be publicly available.

It's a public discord.

[mortrialus.3062]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

Mirages play-rate 1400+ rating is 14%. This means that there's almost one and a half Mirages in each and every game. (Data comes from BenP)

Care to post your source? Cant find it on the dev tracker, and if it was said in stream, a link would be nice. Also, I highly doubt thats the case, and if it was, it probably is old info, but then again, even though I ended in plat 2 last season, placements put me in gold 2 and I'm slowly going up atm, but I can tell you, that from last season and this one, 2-3 is the norm.

@Zenix.6198 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@"incisorr.9502" said:(...) I know cause i knew the names of every played in top 50-100 and their main classes and what they played (...)

Source: Dude, trust me.

Ye, it's a really tough choice.On one hand, you have the statistical data from an Anet employee.On the other, one dude who "just knows"......

I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they have to deliver, otherwise they just start losing credibility..... and this forum is a small town, most people at this point know each other and call each other by name, so its not good to taint your reputation.

Trichons community PvP discord, BenP is in it. I can post a screenshot I guess if you really want it.

Yes I do please, thanks.

https://i.imgur.com/LGvUdsx.png

Edit, on my phone abroad. Best I can do without a computer.

It's stupid that ben will post this in your crappy little discord server and not on the public forums were people can get this information.

The "crappy little server" has over 1k active users.

So? That information should be publicly available.

It's a public discord.

Doesn't change anything. There should be an end of season summary of the play rates and win ratios on the forums. Or even just a dedicated page on the website the way League of Legends, Dota, pretty much every TCG do.

[incisorr.9502]

@Solori.6025 said:

@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:It's all about rock, paper, scissors. Every class/build in the game has a hard counter; except for 1, Mirages. Even thiefs are semi-predictable, but Mirages on the other hand have no direct counter. What class out there exists that when a Mirage player looks at it, thinks to themselves "oh kitten, it's over". There is none. There needs to be some sort of build out there that even in the hands of a terrible player, would wipe the floor with an expert Mirage player with ease. That needs to exist to bring them in line.

What class does that for soulbeast? Or Holo?

dont even bother with that guy

the mAT winning mirage rerolled to soulbeast cause soulbeast is better and mirage is obsolete

and won mat with 1 week experience on SB

in a team with no mirage

cus mirage isn't viable in sPvP. It isnt viable in wvw either cus of condi removal spam, not on higher level at least where people aren't complete buffoons

top 8 of mAT i dont think there were more than 2 mirages out of 40 people, ironically there were more than 5 chronomancers instead

[Solori.6025]

You need a TLDR cause this is hard to read.Some arguments I get and understand and some arguments for condi mirage I totally disagree with. I'll start by saying the entire premise of mesmer conditions like necro and thief before it is flawed. Conditions shouldn't be burst. You should never have 3 to 4 unique damaging conditions on you ever. You should never have 3 damaging conditions and 4 cover conditions instantly on you ever. Conditions are a damage over time mechanic. They should not be a death sentence every 12-20s. Especially when the stats for conditions are paired with defensive stats.

@"incisorr.9502" said:seems like these days the tension has risen due to a certain popular streamer's videos and all the peons are in an uproar with their pitchforks with the hope of getting lord arena net to once and for all completely obliterate and delete the spec mirage and their reasoning? It's " overpowered" . When asked to present arguments and when they fail to present arguments or even to understand how mirage skills even work they resort to the argument"" it's not fun to play against "" . Well guess what - i don't have fun playing against all sorts of cheesy bs. Fun is subjective, i have fun playing vs CONDI mirages. (not power, power is a sea animal)

I hate this argument. It's not fun to play against. As soon as someone says this. It tells me they don't care for the state of the game as long as they can win vs everything on their chosen class. People that fall on the argument X isnt fun or X is annoying usually dont have an single iota of knowledge about the class and it's state outside of." It hurts and I dont know why"

mirage is the last class i rerolled to as a main (except rev which is the one class ive never played and most likely never will) . I actually like mirage, finally found a class that can do hybrid damage that doesn't insta die to necros or thieves. I like the concept and i like the gameplay but for some reason lower elo people won't shut up about how op the class is when in reality it's simply not true

It's usually because people stuck in lower ELO are also the people who are the most casual. They exist in every game. Best to ignore threads from people like that. As even if you tell them why they are wrong. They get defensive and fall on the " you main X class so of course you think it's fine" honestly only scrubs use that argument to vindicate themselves over someone's different opinion. Especially when that opinion points to their lack of skill and experience.

Mirage was the least represented class in the top rankings for the last 2 seasons on average and in general the class isn't that popular on higher eloMirage isn't the best duelist in the game any more due to repeated nerfs and it loses to other classes which makes it obsolete as a duelistTrue points. It loses to other builds= true. It's representation is irrelevant sadly.

Mirage isn't the hardest to kill class in the game

This is subjective. As a person who is of the lower ELO and or skill will see mirage as an impossible stopping force.While others see it as another dead player.

there are 2 types of condition miragetype 1 is with staff which gives access to more sustain and protection and vigor and type 2 is without staff which has more forceful damage

type 1 - staff mirage - is outdated now because boonbeast exists. Staff projectiles are slow, staff doesn't have burst damage, staff doesn't have instant damage (or forceful damage as i call it cause you're not pressing anything) staff is mainly a on-point-utility/defensive weapon which is not oppressive. I guess why people cry about it is because of the auto attack/ illusion auto's bounces which apply conditions which are actually a huge source of damage for staff but it's slow . Staff's mirage cloak can fail easily because of how its programmed and it often just goes past the target

I disagree. Staff is not outdated and still does see usage. Though you areAlso painting a half picture. Staff Axe/torch. Is still very much used. Is still very much a meta build and still very much viable.

type 2 - no staff mirage - no protection, usually no chaos so no vigor either which means you're incredibly squishy and can be punished super easily.

Not quite. As the second build uses scepter which is currently overturned and very overbearing. One of the things that need to be tweaked in the near future.

This is the problem I have observed with condi mirage. Vs power.Power and condi mirage share the same utilities. Same defensive options. And mostly the same trait with a couple variations. Yet we have condi mirage that has been a problem for over a year. And every nerf so far has done nothing but target power mirage mostly.Yet people still complain about condi mirage. So let's look at the class from a step back.Condi mirage can continue to stack damaging conditions into 10+ without the use of shatter. While every class saw direct reductions in the amount of conditions they are able to produce mirage stayed the same OR was buffed (scepter).I can't think of any other class able to maintain the condition pressure a mirage or Necro can.This needs to be corrected in some way. That doesn't continue to screw other non mirage builds.Until it does. Mesmer will continue to be nerfed entirely until the ENTIRE class is unplayable.

The reason why i'm making this thread is because mirage is the only class i like playing right now because i like playing condi and because necro is garbage since it has no stealth or mobility and it's too slow and those 2 are the only classes that work as condi since you destroyed/nerfed everything else cus some people don't understand the concept of condition removal.

If mirage is the class you likeYou need to accept that something is wrong. Like every other mesmer main who loves the class. Recognizing that something may be to strong For the game and asking for slight tweaks goes a much longer way then ignoring the problem altogether.I will say this as well. Condi cleanses in the game have also been over buffed. It's why only Scourge and Mirage have the only working viable condi builds.That also needs to be addressed.

Mesmer already got nerfed way too many times - pretty much in EVERY SINGLE PATCH since last year's march which is ridiculous no matter how you look at it. The class is far from " the best class in the game ". It's not even top 3 best class in the game

I agree mirage isn't the best but it does have a couple of things wrong. Would rather the minor issues be fixed instead of the majority of the class suffering for it.

the most influential classes in the game are the ganker classes because of how ridiculous their burst dmg is right now and how uncounterable it is, if anything POWER MIRAGE is better than condi mirage.

I disagree. As Power mirage can be counterplayed easily with awareness. Secondly most of the major nerfs effected power mirage the most. In almost every way.

because power damage has gotten way too high but the only difference is that sPvP is about point holding and power mirage's dmg is lower in close range and it also has lower sustain dps and that's why it looks like its worse but it's actually better

Better than what?The roaming role it had can be filled by a Boonbeast or holo better. S/D thief has a favorable match up ( again). And scourge can blanket the points to force a decap.Power mirage is decent at +1. But so are a lot of classes. I wouldn't say it's better though.

,it's simply a different role and people don't judge it as a different role which is their mistake

It's a role filled by multiple classes and currently the two prominent power classes holo and boon beast can fill that role better.

so how do you decide that mirage is op if both high elo play rate and high elo ranking statistics don't support this claim

You know the answer

the class stopped being OP after the first 2 nerfs in 2018 which is now more than half a year ago.

Some things as I mentioned above still make mirage and scourge an outlier from the others

Everything a mirage does has counter - conditions have counter, its slow attacks have counter, illusions have counter mirage lacks a lot of things like unblockable attacks or stability boon

Just because the class lacks something is not justification for it to have skills that clearly out perform others of a similar nature.

btw looking at low elo people's opinions on how to balance a game when they clearly can't play the game is like going to the local village to interview farmers on how a surgery should be done.

Hope the devs don't take anymore feedback that destroys a class. Or feedback that goes in the wrong direction . like the qq about torch or the qq about mirage evasion when the class has the lowest access to vigor next to necro. I hope instead the devs can identify and tweak or rework small things before completely destroy it like they have done EM or other traits for mesmer that core and chrono use.

how bout that? fun is subjective, i have fun when i fight condi mirages even if you don't. I'll agree that the class has toxic mechanics but compared to the rest of the game it's nothing out of place. The game has a lot of issues and a lot of toxic mechanics and if you're going to talk about them at least talk about all of them and not just the ones you don't like. Gw2 pvp could be improved a lot and that does include changing mirage but at the same time it includes changing a bunch of other classes and mechanics which are just as big and even bigger issues than mirage is

True.The entire game has suffered from Power creep that has been building since HoT. Until the devs take a step to fix Defense and offense at the same time we won't ever achieve sensible balance.

Lastly, I don't like the idea of hardcounters when the hardcounter shares the same role. That makes one class for a season completely unplayable, undesired, or uncompetive.

[Solori.6025]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:@"incisorr.9502"

Mirage has no stability? You mean aside from the go to trait Bountiful Disillusionment for the condi build for "on demand" stability? .

...1s of stability .. I thought people dropped this trait for one of the actual useful ones.

[apharma.3741]

@Solori.6025 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:@"incisorr.9502"

Mirage has no stability? You mean aside from the go to trait Bountiful Disillusionment for the condi build for "on demand" stability? .

...1s of stability .. I thought people dropped this trait for one of the actual useful ones.

Fun fact: It has only 1s of stab because they wanted to keep it as a boon for PvE and 1s was the lowest they could put it to before the icon glitched out and became a Kappa icon.

[Curunen.8729]

@Solori.6025 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:@"incisorr.9502"

Mirage has no stability? You mean aside from the go to trait Bountiful Disillusionment for the condi build for "on demand" stability? .

...1s of stability .. I thought people dropped this trait for one of the actual useful ones.

Yeah its laughable.

The only benefit to BD right now is guaranteed vigour on F2 (which for some reason during the great vigour nerf they left this one at 8 seconds... /scratches head...).

Stab is a joke at 1 second - negligible in combat after shatter (and lol useless on F4) and has little use aside from eg to secure stomps in rare occasions.

Would rather trade it for swiftness or something else.

[Cyninja.2954]

Let's summarize:

Mirage is un-fun to play against? Check.

Mirage is overpowered? The top 10% picks would disagree, so no.

A ton of want to be pvp players with no skill complaining about the wrong thing? Check.

If you want to complain that Mirage is un-fun to play against, fine. That is at least understandable.If you want to argue that Mirage is overpowered? Neither the picks, nor the statistics support this so: learn to play (ideally make a mirage and play the class yourself to finally understand it).

[Fortus.6175]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

Mirages play-rate 1400+ rating is 14%. This means that there's almost one and a half Mirages in each and every game. (Data comes from BenP)

Care to post your source? Cant find it on the dev tracker, and if it was said in stream, a link would be nice. Also, I highly doubt thats the case, and if it was, it probably is old info, but then again, even though I ended in plat 2 last season, placements put me in gold 2 and I'm slowly going up atm, but I can tell you, that from last season and this one, 2-3 is the norm.

@Zenix.6198 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@"incisorr.9502" said:(...) I know cause i knew the names of every played in top 50-100 and their main classes and what they played (...)

Source: Dude, trust me.

Ye, it's a really tough choice.On one hand, you have the statistical data from an Anet employee.On the other, one dude who "just knows"......

I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they have to deliver, otherwise they just start losing credibility..... and this forum is a small town, most people at this point know each other and call each other by name, so its not good to taint your reputation.

Trichons community PvP discord, BenP is in it. I can post a screenshot I guess if you really want it.

Yes I do please, thanks.

https://i.imgur.com/LGvUdsx.png

Edit, on my phone abroad. Best I can do without a computer.

Thank you for following up <3

[XenoSpyro.1780]

"Cyber-bullied"

Stopped reading there.

[Derm.4932]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Let's summarize:

Mirage is un-fun to play against? Check.

Mirage is overpowered? The top 10% picks would disagree, so no.

A ton of want to be pvp players with no skill complaining about the wrong thing? Check.

If you want to complain that Mirage is un-fun to play against, fine. That is at least understandable.If you want to argue that Mirage is overpowered? Neither the picks, nor the statistics support this so: learn to play (ideally make a mirage and play the class yourself to finally understand it).

[zoomborg.9462]

On a vacuum a class is determined strong or weak depending on results vs effort. Mirage gives the most value for very little effort.

Lets say you're playing power mirage for example. U can do some serious burst, have great mobility and evasion but if your burst gets evaded or blocked or w/e u practically have to kite and run until its up again. U also have to deal with protection and retaliation that most tanky classes can self generate. So even though the build has much potential it depends on a lot of factors and mostly experience to get any value out of it. In other words, its unreliable and risky. It requires a lot of effort.

Condi mirage doesnt have those limitations. The condi pressure is huge and non-stop, u can crap out illusions 24/7, u can break targetting every 8 sec, confusion and torment on PvP are basically the best conditions to apply and mirage has a ton of access into those.Hell, just having illusions attacking while u afk is still enough to put significant pressure. U dont really need timing cause everything has low cd and sooner or later every class runs out of condi cleanses.Add to that the accessibily to self generating boons through chaos. Basically its OP cause it provides maximum value for low effort. I good mirage can stomp anything even 1v2s are extremely annoying. A bad mirage will still cause problems even if he's just mashing buttons with no clue. There is no other build in the game that is as effective atm.

Back in the day the same was happening with d/p thief . Basically a class was considered meta or not based on if it can survive and somehow counter a thief burst. Now a class is considered good if it can somehow stand up to a mirage.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Solori.6025 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:@"incisorr.9502"

Mirage has no stability? You mean aside from the go to trait Bountiful Disillusionment for the condi build for "on demand" stability? .

...1s of stability .. I thought people dropped this trait for one of the actual useful ones.

Irrelevant. That wasn't my point, I was correcting them. It was inaccurate to say they have "no Stability", and it has been a commonly used trait hence why I brought it up.

[sephiroth.4217]

mirage is fine, dodging while stunned / casting / rezzing / stomping / channelling is not fine.

I only hope that next expansion the other classes get something as equally broken such as walking through terrain or 450 teleports on dodge through walls because "balanced, L2P scrubs"..Maybe thief becomes invulnerable while stealthed?Maybe Ele can summon a storm to cover an entire map that instagibs people?just some ideas for classes to break combat parameters like Mesmer can currently achieve, that should "balance" the game a little lol

[Daishi.6027]

It's fine let A-net keep doing whatever.Even with all the shave nerfs unless they decide to smiter's boon the class a vast majority will still die.Will still not anticipate.Will still not read.Will still not count their opponents expended resources.Will still get lost in Illusions.Will still not use terrain.

To quote A-net: "We want mirages to excel in longer combat engagements." The defense options aren't going anywhere.They will continue to tone down the damage, and people will continue to die and cry because they don't outplay it.

So long as more than half the game cannot anticipate burst attacks or avoid things like shatters mesmers will be cried about, this was happening even back when mesmer was objectively worse than thief. So when it's functional I expect the voices to be even louder.Though there are some specific nerfs due, it's really not as bad as people make it out to be, if you know what you are doing you can kill condi mirage with minimal cleanse without giving up the point on quite a few classes.

It would be nice if the right aspects of Condi alone got nerfed I do agree with the masses on that.

But you guys wanna know why the class has been shaved but not nerfed to a state of uselessness time and time again no matter how much it's demanded? Because A-net is fully aware of the definition of a scrub.

You can blame it on favoritism all you want, but there is a far larger history of mesmers being at the bottom, and being irreverent outside of portal in many a meta. If there ever was gross over performance like S1 chronobunk, it only ever got that season before being killed.(rightfully so) But you are free to believe what you want.

PS. OP is right that "fun to fight" is subjective. I happen to love fighting Deadeyes on almost any class that I'm decent with.

Inb4 "Mesmer main spotted!" May be true; But I'm also the type who takes great pleasure, and is passionate about killing mesmers.Be it a mirror with a less powerful extremely silly build, or on another class.

[Abazigal.3679]

This topic illustrates the huge problem of the forum, which is top players arguing with lower placed players, although both are right.

Incisorr is right, mirages aren't so good at top level because all 5 players do know how to play against it , and have builds for it.However, people saying mirage is OP are probably playing in gold or below, where it usually takes 1 player or 1 bad setup to lose to any mirage or double mirage team.Note that this is the same issue for reaper or scourge. I mean, i had games at 1000 rating past seasons where all my team would drop like flies to a mesmer or a necro i could kill within 4 seconds. That's clearly a l2p issue, but i'm still not sure it should be so easy for an average player to beat so easily other average players only thanks to build.

If i had to give my point of view, from a competitive perspective, mirage is ok. However, this is simply not fun playing against double mirages, or mirages + scourges in ranked because it's completly out of control for me

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@"sephiroth.4217" said:mirage is fine, dodging while stunned / casting / rezzing / stomping / channelling is not fine.

I only hope that next expansion the other classes get something as equally broken such as walking through terrain or 450 teleports on dodge through walls because "balanced, L2P scrubs"..Maybe thief becomes invulnerable while stealthed?Maybe Ele can summon a storm to cover an entire map that instagibs people?just some ideas for classes to break combat parameters like Mesmer can currently achieve, that should "balance" the game a little lol

Nobody thinks dodge while CC'ed is okay. Dodge while casting is the whole gimmick, you're just gonna have to bite that one. And false equate more, it makes your argument soooooo good.

[apharma.3741]

@"sephiroth.4217" said:mirage is fine, dodging while stunned / casting / rezzing / stomping / channelling is not fine.

I only hope that next expansion the other classes get something as equally broken such as walking through terrain or 450 teleports on dodge through walls because "balanced, L2P scrubs"..Maybe thief becomes invulnerable while stealthed?Maybe Ele can summon a storm to cover an entire map that instagibs people?just some ideas for classes to break combat parameters like Mesmer can currently achieve, that should "balance" the game a little lol

OK so "dodging while stunned / casting / rezzing / stomping / channelling is not fine." So lets say we do what you ask and remove that ability, where do you think that leaves mirage?

Without Infinite horizon clones do nothing so this makes infinite horizon almost mandatory, not that it's any different given how aweful the alternatives are. If Infinite Horizon gets changed then it would be an issue.Mirage cloak then ends up being a slightly better dodge just because on paper it lasts 0.25s longer and because you can't cast in it you only get to use ambush skills in the last 0.5s of mirage cloak.

At that point even renegade looks better than mirage and I am not joking either.

So if you do remove that what are you going to make the spec into? You've pretty much destroyed it whether you consciously wanted to or not and this isn't me saying everything is fine, mirage is ferpectly balanced, it's me pointing out that you're removing the only thing that defines the spec and makes it any way better than core and would need something else to make it an elite spec changing the way you play.

Edit: Forgot to say yes dodging while CC'd shouldn't be a thing.