how do people decide that mirage is op? (it's not op, a defense of the cyber bullied class)

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:What class out there exists that when a Mirage player looks at it, thinks to themselves "oh kitten, it's over". There is none.

It ultimately comes down to each player's skill, but most Mirages will see at least Guardians, Soulbeasts, S/D Thieves, and some Holo builds as real potential threats.

There needs to be some sort of build out there that even in the hands of a terrible player, would wipe the floor with an expert Mirage player with ease. That needs to exist to bring them in line.

Are you serious? Is a build with which any "terrible" player can handily trounce any expert player, regardless of profession, something that should exist in a healthy game?

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

I can see why this discussion is bringing out the pitch forks, but to see the masses carrying on, one would think Mirage has no less than five simultaneous trait lines active, multiple active grandmasters in each, at least as many utility slots available, and an elite that's actually elite.

[phokus.8934]

@dominik.9721 said:

How do we decide that mirage is op?Because people like Flänby would be gold again without mirage and irrelevant since 2012 like they used to be.

Btw. the only reason you don't see so much mirages in top 10 leaderboard or mAT is because nearly every single good mesmer main does not play anymore.If Misha, Frostball and Hesleth would still play consistently, they would sit top 10 every single season and would win every single mAT like they used to win every single ESL-tournement.

But what is left in the game is players like you who 1v3s random players easily on far due to the fact that mirage is completly broken but complains about core guard because you are unable to execute a single proper dodge 3 seconds after focus 5.But Misha played in the mAT and his team didn’t make it to finals. In fact they lost pretty badly.

And if Mirage was such an OP class then we would see more in top 10. (Don’t interpret this as me saying Mirage is fine).

[dominik.9721]

@phokus.8934 said:

@dominik.9721 said:

How do we decide that mirage is op?Because people like Flänby would be gold again without mirage and irrelevant since 2012 like they used to be.

Btw. the only reason you don't see so much mirages in top 10 leaderboard or mAT is because nearly every single good mesmer main does not play anymore.If Misha, Frostball and Hesleth would still play consistently, they would sit top 10 every single season and would win every single mAT like they used to win every single ESL-tournement.

But what is left in the game is players like you who 1v3s random players easily on far due to the fact that mirage is completly broken but complains about core guard because you are unable to execute a single proper dodge 3 seconds after focus 5.But Misha played in the mAT and his team didn’t make it to finals. In fact they lost pretty badly.

And if Mirage was such an OP class then we would see more in top 10. (Don’t interpret this as me saying Mirage is fine).

Misha plays raids only since half a year and doesn't play pvp seriously at all anymore.Rank 55 is split up anyways so why would he tryhard with a random trash team.And the few games he played druing season he trolled around on chrono.

So ye ...

Taking mAT and lb as a reference is a joke anyways.Nowadays, there is none left who tryhards or plays seriously anymore in comparison to ESL times - except ,maybe those who were too bad back then and finally feel relevant after PoF-powercreep because they won a random AT at 3 am in the morning.

[phokus.8934]

@dominik.9721 said:

@phokus.8934 said:

@dominik.9721 said:

How do we decide that mirage is op?Because people like Flänby would be gold again without mirage and irrelevant since 2012 like they used to be.

Btw. the only reason you don't see so much mirages in top 10 leaderboard or mAT is because nearly every single good mesmer main does not play anymore.If Misha, Frostball and Hesleth would still play consistently, they would sit top 10 every single season and would win every single mAT like they used to win every single ESL-tournement.

But what is left in the game is players like you who 1v3s random players easily on far due to the fact that mirage is completly broken but complains about core guard because you are unable to execute a single proper dodge 3 seconds after focus 5.But Misha played in the mAT and his team didn’t make it to finals. In fact they lost pretty badly.

And if Mirage was such an OP class then we would see more in top 10. (Don’t interpret this as me saying Mirage is fine).

Misha plays raids only since half a year and doesn't play pvp seriously at all anymore.Rank 55 is split up anyways so why would he tryhard with a random trash team.And the few games he played druing season he trolled around on chrono.

So ye ...

Taking mAT and lb as a reference is a joke anyways.Nowadays, there is none left who tryhards or plays seriously anymore in comparison to ESL times - except ,maybe those who were too bad back then and finally feel relevant after PoF-powercreep because they won a random AT at 3 am in the morning.

That necessarily doesn't diminish his ability to pvp effectively.

Point being, he played bunker Chrono and his team lost and didn't even make it to the finals. Also, you're not seeing Mirages at the top 10 is because the top 25 have a brain and know what to look for and how to play against Mirages. The issue with Mirage is that it's too punishing against the average GW2 player.

[Tiipi.6750]

@dominik.9721 said:

How do we decide that mirage is op?Because people like Flänby would be gold again without mirage and irrelevant since 2012 like they used to be.

Btw. the only reason you don't see so much mirages in top 10 leaderboard or mAT is because nearly every single good mesmer main does not play anymore.If Misha, Frostball and Hesleth would still play consistently, they would sit top 10 every single season and would win every single mAT like they used to win every single ESL-tournement.

But what is left in the game is players like you who 1v3s random players easily on far due to the fact that mirage is completly broken but complains about core guard because you are unable to execute a single proper dodge 3 seconds after focus 5.

Actually both Misha and Helseth are currently playing, last time i checked Misha was rank 1 and i'm pretty sure he plays chrono only.

[Patrick.2987]

Last time i checked there were 3 mirages in top 10 and top 25 can sometimes not even handle some bad core specs. The good mesmers are either not playing at all anymore or have fun on power builds, cause mirage is not fun to play for them. The excuse there is a more effektive sidenoder is not the point to say mirage is balanced. Yes Anet did not balance soulbeast correctly but at least they know it is overperforming.

Another important thing to mention is not that a good player can take a lot of advantage of it but even when played bad you can not punish. The good player dodges the stun and escapes the following damage, a bad player eats it and dodges while stunned with almost the same result.

And it is not the only spec that needs to see nerfs which you should keep in mind. If we only nerf damage, condicleanse, soulbeast etc it will be godlike again.

[dominik.9721]

@everyman.4375 said:

@"dominik.9721" said:

How do we decide that mirage is op?Because people like Flänby would be gold again without mirage and irrelevant since 2012 like they used to be.

Btw. the only reason you don't see so much mirages in top 10 leaderboard or mAT is because nearly every single good mesmer main does not play anymore.If Misha, Frostball and Hesleth would still play consistently, they would sit top 10 every single season and would win every single mAT like they used to win every single ESL-tournement.

But what is left in the game is players like you who 1v3s random players easily on far due to the fact that mirage is completly broken but complains about core guard because you are unable to execute a single proper dodge 3 seconds after focus 5.

Actually both Misha and Helseth are currently playing, last time i checked Misha was rank 1 and i'm pretty sure he plays chrono only.

Actually both are not.

Helseth is logging in twice maybe each two months and Misha spents 98% of his active playtime in raids. That's not even worth mentioning in comparison to their active prime.

So how on earth you can consider this "both are playing"?

[Tiipi.6750]

@dominik.9721 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@dominik.9721 said:

How do we decide that mirage is op?Because people like Flänby would be gold again without mirage and irrelevant since 2012 like they used to be.

Btw. the only reason you don't see so much mirages in top 10 leaderboard or mAT is because nearly every single good mesmer main does not play anymore.If Misha, Frostball and Hesleth would still play consistently, they would sit top 10 every single season and would win every single mAT like they used to win every single ESL-tournement.

But what is left in the game is players like you who 1v3s random players easily on far due to the fact that mirage is completly broken but complains about core guard because you are unable to execute a single proper dodge 3 seconds after focus 5.

Actually both Misha and Helseth are currently playing, last time i checked Misha was rank 1 and i'm pretty sure he plays chrono only.

Actually both are not.

Helseth is logging in twice maybe each two months and Misha spents 98% of his active playtime in raids. That's not even worth mentioning in comparison to their active prime.

So how on earth you can consider this "both are playing"?

Helseth streamed maybe a bit less than ten times this month, wich is not bad.And i could be wrong but i think Misha is currently rank 1. (He plays chrono)

[Vancho.8750]

When are you all "mesmerers" and condition lovers will understand that fighting against the UI is not fun for anyone.One you have to deal with targeting of the game which is horrible second you have to look at the bar and not the screen where the action is and on top of that all the clutter from the spawns large area of effects and whatever flashing animation there is.

[apharma.3741]

@everyman.4375 said:

@dominik.9721 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@dominik.9721 said:

How do we decide that mirage is op?Because people like Flänby would be gold again without mirage and irrelevant since 2012 like they used to be.

Btw. the only reason you don't see so much mirages in top 10 leaderboard or mAT is because nearly every single good mesmer main does not play anymore.If Misha, Frostball and Hesleth would still play consistently, they would sit top 10 every single season and would win every single mAT like they used to win every single ESL-tournement.

But what is left in the game is players like you who 1v3s random players easily on far due to the fact that mirage is completly broken but complains about core guard because you are unable to execute a single proper dodge 3 seconds after focus 5.

Actually both Misha and Helseth are currently playing, last time i checked Misha was rank 1 and i'm pretty sure he plays chrono only.

Actually both are not.

Helseth is logging in twice maybe each two months and Misha spents 98% of his active playtime in raids. That's not even worth mentioning in comparison to their active prime.

So how on earth you can consider this "both are playing"?

Helseth streamed maybe a bit less than ten times this month, wich is not bad.And i could be wrong but i think Misha is currently rank 1. (He plays chrono)

Metrix is rank 1 with 21 games played. 19 won, 2 lost.

[bravan.3876]

Ppl still check lb? lel

[Tiipi.6750]

@apharma.3741 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@dominik.9721 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@dominik.9721 said:

How do we decide that mirage is op?Because people like Flänby would be gold again without mirage and irrelevant since 2012 like they used to be.

Btw. the only reason you don't see so much mirages in top 10 leaderboard or mAT is because nearly every single good mesmer main does not play anymore.If Misha, Frostball and Hesleth would still play consistently, they would sit top 10 every single season and would win every single mAT like they used to win every single ESL-tournement.

But what is left in the game is players like you who 1v3s random players easily on far due to the fact that mirage is completly broken but complains about core guard because you are unable to execute a single proper dodge 3 seconds after focus 5.

Actually both Misha and Helseth are currently playing, last time i checked Misha was rank 1 and i'm pretty sure he plays chrono only.

Actually both are not.

Helseth is logging in twice maybe each two months and Misha spents 98% of his active playtime in raids. That's not even worth mentioning in comparison to their active prime.

So how on earth you can consider this "both are playing"?

Helseth streamed maybe a bit less than ten times this month, wich is not bad.And i could be wrong but i think Misha is currently rank 1. (He plays chrono)

Metrix is rank 1 with 21 games played. 19 won, 2 lost.

Metrix is Misha right ?

[Tiipi.6750]

@"Vancho.8750" said:When are you all "mesmerers" and condition lovers will understand that fighting against the UI is not fun for anyone.One you have to deal with targeting of the game which is horrible second you have to look at the bar and not the screen where the action is and on top of that all the clutter from the spawns large area of effects and whatever flashing animation there is.

I'd say that the game targeting is pretty good 90% of the time, it targets the mesmer and not the clones

[apharma.3741]

@everyman.4375 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@dominik.9721 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@dominik.9721 said:

How do we decide that mirage is op?Because people like Flänby would be gold again without mirage and irrelevant since 2012 like they used to be.

Btw. the only reason you don't see so much mirages in top 10 leaderboard or mAT is because nearly every single good mesmer main does not play anymore.If Misha, Frostball and Hesleth would still play consistently, they would sit top 10 every single season and would win every single mAT like they used to win every single ESL-tournement.

But what is left in the game is players like you who 1v3s random players easily on far due to the fact that mirage is completly broken but complains about core guard because you are unable to execute a single proper dodge 3 seconds after focus 5.

Actually both Misha and Helseth are currently playing, last time i checked Misha was rank 1 and i'm pretty sure he plays chrono only.

Actually both are not.

Helseth is logging in twice maybe each two months and Misha spents 98% of his active playtime in raids. That's not even worth mentioning in comparison to their active prime.

So how on earth you can consider this "both are playing"?

Helseth streamed maybe a bit less than ten times this month, wich is not bad.And i could be wrong but i think Misha is currently rank 1. (He plays chrono)

Metrix is rank 1 with 21 games played. 19 won, 2 lost.

Metrix is Misha right ?

Yes.

@bravan.3876 tbh I had no idea who was top till I checked for someone I'm going to assume is NA.

[Daishi.6027]

@"dominik.9721" said:

How do we decide that mirage is op?Because people like Flänby would be gold again without mirage and irrelevant since 2012 like they used to be.

Btw. the only reason you don't see so much mirages in top 10 leaderboard or mAT is because nearly every single good mesmer main does not play anymore.If Misha, Frostball and Hesleth would still play consistently, they would sit top 10 every single season and would win every single mAT like they used to win every single ESL-tournement.

But what is left in the game is players like you who 1v3s random players easily on far due to the fact that mirage is completly broken but complains about core guard because you are unable to execute a single proper dodge 3 seconds after focus 5.

Your argument implies the class carries beyond players actual skill levels.Then you point out how actually good players don't queue, and that is fair and true statement.However, how is it then; that so many players, with moderate skill levels, are not now carried to at least near the top of the rankings?By this logic there should still be a high influx of mirages towards the top of the rankings, so their absence needs some explanation, beyond: "oh they are just all bad!". because as you pointed out should they not be carried up there?

I don't care what bads do to other bads, I count average players in that. That isn't a basis for "OP" just like how by analogy: Little mac in Smash 4, or King K. Rool's in Smash Ultimate - bads (and the average player-base) will constantly fight with no idea how to react, die easily regardless of enemy skill level, and then consider it broken when in truth it's not hard to play around; and thus why neither do super well in high end play no matter how many bads they roflstomp.

This isn't a perfect analogy, sure, but ultimately: Furniture doesn't get to have a valid opinion on balance.

[Sampson.2403]

Mirage is opressive to the above average and below skill level. This skill range is atleast 80% ot the playerbase, probably more. So the question is, is it okay that only 20% of the playerbase can beat a certain class?

You can argue it both ways, no one is really right. It comes down to perspective: should a game be balanced around top tier competition or casual play.

[dominik.9721]

@Daishi.6027 said:

@"dominik.9721" said:

How do we decide that mirage is op?Because people like Flänby would be gold again without mirage and irrelevant since 2012 like they used to be.

Btw. the only reason you don't see so much mirages in top 10 leaderboard or mAT is because nearly every single good mesmer main does not play anymore.If Misha, Frostball and Hesleth would still play consistently, they would sit top 10 every single season and would win every single mAT like they used to win every single ESL-tournement.

But what is left in the game is players like you who 1v3s random players easily on far due to the fact that mirage is completly broken but complains about core guard because you are unable to execute a single proper dodge 3 seconds after focus 5.

Your argument implies the class carries beyond players actual skill levels.Then you point out how actually good players don't queue, and that is fair and true statement.However, how is it then; that so many players, with moderate skill levels, are not now carried to at least near the top of the rankings?By this logic there should still be a high influx of mirages towards the top of the rankings, so their absence needs some explanation, beyond: "oh they are just all bad!". because as you pointed out should they not be carried up there?

I don't care what bads do to other bads, I count average players in that. That isn't a basis for "OP" just like how by analogy: Little mac in Smash 4, or King K. Rool's in Smash Ultimate - bads (and the average player-base) will constantly fight with no idea how to react, die easily regardless of enemy skill level, and then consider it broken when in truth it's not hard to play around; and thus why neither do super well in high end play no matter how many bads they roflstomp.

This isn't a perfect analogy, sure, but ultimately: Furniture doesn't get to have a valid opinion on balance.

I don't want to go too much into detail but let me say it this way:

I could call out straight 5 active EU mesmers who are doing decent right now with mirage but who were known for being same lvl like silencia on thief, before. Ushually, that's also the reason they don't play anything else because they are comletly unable to do.

[Daishi.6027]

@"Sampson.2403" said:So the question is, is it okay that only 20% of the playerbase can beat a certain class?

I don't think these numbers are correct, although that may be a conformation bias on my part.

However be it 10%, 20%, 30, 40, 50, or more, those who do not fall within that range can learn to overcome it because the hard fact is it can be overcome, those players prove it, and honestly quite easily once you know how. I should know killing mesmers is literally one of the reasons why I still play GW2.Maybe it will take longer, maybe a small select few are genuinely incapable, maybe the game has run so long that veterans have such large advantage of aptitude, but that isn't a basis for something being "OP".

Once again I need to clarify that I'm still not opposed to nerfs, and think there are significant but proper ways condi mirage needs to be shaved. Without a long elaboration I feel blinds synergy with confusion is one of they key factors, presuming we are leaving the condi shatter frequency alone.

However, the things people are regularly complaining about and making an issue of is a blatant display of ineptitude and refusal to learn. I cannot accept the "80%" as suggested above, pushing a narrative that lacks perspective; Because then we end up with smiters boon to a class, and we end up like in the early years where you have something that is virtually replaced in slot by anything, save for one mechanic, and is only stomping people who are so fresh they don't see a difference between dodge rolling forward vs backwards in all situations.

I would rather the balance in reality be a very cerebral battle of playing around each-others mechanics where a 1v1 can be a 50-50, to a 40-60 range (at worst 30-70 for harder counters in either direction depending who counters who). Yet only 80% of the player base be mentally capable of achieving it.VsDumbing it down so you forcibly get those numbers for those who don't want to fight in such a way.

Because again that 80% can learn. It is the internal struggles, when fought and won on their own, that yield the strongest rewards and by extension stronger players. By nerfing it to such a standard, you simply cheapened it; and we end up with a even more coddled player base that will cry over anything that requires basic prediction or anticipation.

[BlackTruth.6813]

So basically, people like Chaithh who actually WON world tournaments and cash prize money in GW2, need to L2P vs. Mirage or Mesmer in general?

I would advise that you learn humility, because clearly you believe attacking while evading is fair game when that is a BIG PART of why GW2 got dropped by ESL in the first place. It's disgusting and it makes you look entitled.

https://www.twitch.tv/chaithh Check his past broadcasts and see if "Mirage" or "Mesmers" are balanced for that matter. This is COMING from a PRO player's perspective, not an entitled "Mesmer main"

This game is trash because of Mesmer mains saying the class is fair and ANET agree-ing with it. Otherwise, the game could be fun. Keep defending Mesmer please entitled born talentless losers

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@"BlackTruth.6813" said:So basically, people like Chaithh who actually WON world tournaments and cash prize money in GW2, need to L2P vs. Mirage or Mesmer in general?

I would advise that you learn humility, because clearly you believe attacking while evading is fair game when that is a BIG PART of why GW2 got dropped by ESL in the first place. It's disgusting and it makes you look entitled.

https://www.twitch.tv/chaithh Check his past broadcasts and see if "Mirage" or "Mesmers" are balanced for that matter. This is COMING from a PRO player's perspective, not an entitled "Mesmer main"

This game is trash because of Mesmer mains saying the class is fair and ANET agree-ing with it. Otherwise, the game could be fun. Keep defending Mesmer please entitled born talentless losers

If you'd quit being willfully blind you'd notice that most mesmer mains want Mirage nerfed. Just not nuked from orbit like a large portion of this sub forums traffic.

[xZombieTaco.5809]

@"incisorr.9502" said:monthly automated tournament is happening

top 8 teams, 40~ players

2 miragesxdif its not good in a competitive 5v5 sPvP environment then kitten are people even crying about? it's not fun playing against? it's not fun losing pvp, wow whats new BabyRage

Mirage isn't a good TEAM comp selection. Chrono has significantly more TEAM based utility. What "top teams" are using shouldn't effect how it plays for the average joe. In fact the average player should greatly be affecting top teams. Top teams run specific things to counter other specific things, or to do better in a team based fight. Top Teams use builds mirroring WvW group composition builds because of this.Solo que with mirage? A single mirage can carry a bad team due to their excessive mobility up time through Mirage Cloak+Over performing damage output.On a side note: if thief has to sacrifice sustainability for damage, so do you.This is the issue with Mirage. Its OP because the class itself ticks all the boxes for a roaming PvP build. Damage, Mobility, Sustainability. While also ticking all the boxes for team fights. Sustainability, Damage Uptime, and Disengage.Every other class in the game has to sacrifice 1 of the 2 to be even remotely good at the game. Scourge sacrifices Mobility for Group Sustain/Damage. Reaper Sacrifices Sustainability for Damage and crap mobility - just as an example.

[xZombieTaco.5809]

On a side note: Mirage is the new "Cyber bullied class" because thief got nerfed into the ground. Welcome to the most hated class. There's fruit punch in the back next to the babytears cookies.

[Daishi.6027]

@"BlackTruth.6813" said:because clearly you believe attacking while evading is fair game when that is a BIG PART of why GW2 got dropped by ESL in the first place.

You want to elaborate on that statement? ESL was dropped back in season 6, long before PoF and by extension when mirage came out.If you still want to blame mesmers; chronobunk was nerfed the day after season 1 ended.

Seasons leading up to it 3, 4, 5, and 6 when it was dropped, iirc; Low tiers complained about DH, while higher tiers complained about the medium classes. Where was mesmer?: Being taken mostly for portal and double moa.

The only class that had an abundance of evade at the time and could frequently attack while doing it was Thief. Which to this day still has it's abundance of evade, and more than mirage; and plenty of skills that can do damage with it. Along with bunker druid at the time having quite a bit of access to evade on their sword/dagger setup enhancing their already high sustain.

At least mirage by comparison is the same two dodges that run out, with a bit of vigor that is on par with any other dps builds that get access to vigor. I guess plus mirrors, but mirrors are painfully obvious to play around, I always use it as a key to tell me if the mesmer is going to position there or not, and if they are going to need to blow cooldowns to get back to me. (Did they just assault me with their only ranged option? How close to me will they be when they leap? What is the position of their illusions?)

I'm not digging through the entire playlist, nice free advertisement drop I guess; if you have a specific vid to prove your point please link it. The one fight I watched it was a 2v2, and they won the fight, mirage was dead, would have probably gotten cap until a third person showed up. Seems like they did fine. I don't watch GW2 PvP because of the Real reason it got dropped by ESL; being that it's not very interesting to watch for vets, and it fails to pull in new spectators because the uninitiated get lost in visual noise, which maintaining and gathering viewership is the corner stone of e-sports. This could have been seen in there viewership numbers since early on, and spoilers; a lot of people only came for "giveaways". Balance was a factor, sure, but it wasn't the only one and Mesmer was still not the core issue to that at it's current state leading up to season 6.

Also "Appeal to Authority" has always been dangerous with GW2, and I would take the 'expert' claim of some pros with a grain of salt, beyond the standard biases for their mains; which is somewhat understandable (but needs to take that into account). I'd like to point out that prior to the specialization patch long ago, when we had the likes of Supcutie as one of the top power shatter mesmers, and earlier days in the rise of Helseth, both were claiming mesmer was unvaiable from around 2013 - 2015. Supcutie I find particularly of note, because this couldn't have been a case of simple bias as he actually switched to thief for any major tournament, and many were claiming it was replaced by thief for anything but portal. Yet mesmer was still complained about by pros and devs alike. Having talked with both of them around that time, admittedly briefly; both implied quite a large bias against mesmer from Karl Mclain the lead balance designer and head of Thief and Guardian IIRC (lol @ anyone who said Mesmer is A-nets favorite baby), as well as from the greater community of the "top player base" at the time. You can call it their bias if you want, but it didn't change the fact that mesmer was being replaced by thief, despite top people complaining mesmer was "OP" even then.

I won't argue that Condi Mirage is over performing in some ways, and needs to be shaved. The only thing I'm saying is that it's not actually as bad as many many many people make it out to be (good thing being right isn't simply a democracy). Also you're correct that I don't think it's defensive options are that much of an issue even if people don't like it. Same how I don't view Deadeye's stealth as an issue, nor do I find ele sustain rotations to be an issue, or soul beast, or a warrior's abillity to shrug off ranged pokes, or DareDevils, etc etc.However, it is invalid to come claiming that attacking while dodging is why GW2 got dropped from ESL, it is factually incorrect especially when it was first under suspect since the earlier metas of Zoo, Hambow, and the rise of 4 cele ele meta. If you want to blame Daredevil for attacking while evading, fine, but they have most of what they could do then now, and no one except bads complain about them.

I think you need to either check the games history, because if you even experienced the game prior to 2015 your memory may be failing you for what was called into question for e-sports.

[Megametzler.5729]

@"Daishi.6027" said:(...)

The only class that had an abundance of evade at the time and could frequently attack while doing it was Thief. Which to this day still has it's abundance of evade, and more than mirage; and plenty of skills that can do damage with it. Along with bunker druid at the time having quite a bit of access to evade on their sword/dagger setup enhancing their already high sustain.

(...)

Let's have a closer look into this. I just extended my sheet I made the other day.

Mirage build is from metabattle. Thief build with roll for initiative, I assumed perma vigor and spamming of sword 3 (with shortbow the value would be higher, but I guess that is not the problem here). I did not include distortion or instant reflexes. I admit another thing: I neglected some initiative regenerating with steal.

The values are all evade time per second, calculated by evade time divided by CD.

We can see, thief indeed has a higher evasion uptime, even without roll for initiative (even higher than ele, by the way).

But: only the first skill of sword 3 and daggerstorm do damage coupled with evades - while mirage can attack during all mirage mirrors and axe 3 - which is, funny enough, the whole evasion uptime.