how do people decide that mirage is op? (it's not op, a defense of the cyber bullied class)

[Tayga.3192]

The problem is not mirage cloak if core mesmer can do more damage and perform nearly equal to mirage. Please give a try to hybrid illusions/dueling/chaos mesmer with scepter and wizard amu.

[Alatar.7364]

@"Megametzler.5729" said:Let's have a closer look into this. I just extended my sheet I made the other day.

Mirage build is from metabattle. Thief build with roll for initiative, I assumed perma vigor and spamming of sword 3 (with shortbow the value would be higher, but I guess that is not the problem here). I did not include distortion or instant reflexes. I admit another thing: I neglected some initiative regenerating with steal.

The values are all evade time per second, calculated by evade time divided by CD.

We can see, thief indeed has a higher evasion uptime, even without roll for initiative (even higher than ele, by the way).

But: only the first skill of sword 3 and daggerstorm do damage coupled with evades - while mirage can attack during all mirage mirrors and axe 3 - which is, funny enough, the whole evasion uptime.

I am too lazy to find out on my own so got to ask, did you include the fact that Mirage dodge evades for 1 second while dodges of other professions for 0.75?

[Megametzler.5729]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@"Megametzler.5729" said:Let's have a closer look into this. I just extended my sheet I made the other day.

Mirage build is from metabattle. Thief build with roll for initiative, I assumed perma vigor and spamming of sword 3 (with shortbow the value would be higher, but I guess that is not the problem here). I did not include distortion or instant reflexes. I admit another thing: I neglected some initiative regenerating with steal.

The values are all evade time per second, calculated by evade time divided by CD.

We can see, thief indeed has a higher evasion uptime, even without roll for initiative (even higher than ele, by the way).

But: only the first skill of sword 3 and daggerstorm do damage coupled with evades - while mirage can attack during all mirage mirrors and axe 3 - which is, funny enough,

the whole evasion uptime

.

I am too lazy to find out on my own so got to ask, did you include the fact that Mirage dodge evades for 1 second while dodges of other professions for 0.75?

Yepp, I did. :smile: That is why even with perma vigor on thief versus around 55ish % for mirage, mirage still has a higher evade uptime through pure dodging.

[Math.5123]

@Daishi.6027 said:

@BlackTruth.6813 said:because clearly you believe attacking while evading is fair game when that is a BIG PART of why GW2 got dropped by ESL in the first place.

You want to elaborate on that statement? ESL was dropped back in season 6, long before PoF and by extension when mirage came out.If you still want to blame mesmers; chronobunk was nerfed the day after season 1 ended.

Seasons leading up to it 3, 4, 5, and 6 when it was dropped, iirc; Low tiers complained about DH, while higher tiers complained about the medium classes. Where was mesmer?: Being taken mostly for portal and double moa.

Do I need to remind you of the abomination that was s1 and s2 chrono bunker?

[storm.3120]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Let's have a closer look into this. I just extended my sheet I made the other day.

Mirage build is from metabattle. Thief build with roll for initiative, I assumed perma vigor and spamming of sword 3 (with shortbow the value would be higher, but I guess that is not the problem here). I did not include distortion or instant reflexes. I admit another thing: I neglected some initiative regenerating with steal.

The values are all evade time per second, calculated by evade time divided by CD.

We can see, thief indeed has a higher evasion uptime, even without roll for initiative (even higher than ele, by the way).

But: only the first skill of sword 3 and daggerstorm do damage coupled with evades - while mirage can attack during all mirage mirrors and axe 3 - which is, funny enough,

the whole evasion uptime

.

I am too lazy to find out on my own so got to ask, did you include the fact that Mirage dodge evades for 1 second while dodges of other professions for 0.75?

Yepp, I did. :smile: That is why even with perma vigor on thief versus around 55ish % for mirage, mirage still has a higher evade uptime through pure dodging.

Did you count improved vigor or nah?

[Zawn.9647]

q: how do people decide that mirage is opa: playing against any of them

thx bye

[Megametzler.5729]

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Let's have a closer look into this. I just extended my sheet I made the other day.

Mirage build is from metabattle. Thief build with roll for initiative, I assumed perma vigor and spamming of sword 3 (with shortbow the value would be higher, but I guess that is not the problem here). I did not include distortion or instant reflexes. I admit another thing: I neglected some initiative regenerating with steal.

The values are all evade time per second, calculated by evade time divided by CD.

We can see, thief indeed has a higher evasion uptime, even without roll for initiative (even higher than ele, by the way).

But: only the first skill of sword 3 and daggerstorm do damage coupled with evades - while mirage can attack during all mirage mirrors and axe 3 - which is, funny enough,

the whole evasion uptime

.

I am too lazy to find out on my own so got to ask, did you include the fact that Mirage dodge evades for 1 second while dodges of other professions for 0.75?

Yepp, I did. :smile: That is why even with perma vigor on thief versus around 55ish % for mirage, mirage still has a higher evade uptime through pure dodging.

Did you count improved vigor or nah?

Damn, forgot about that! Now the evade time through dodging is better on thief indeed (0.129 versus 0.131).

On the other hand, sigil of energy is only used on one weapon set. I adjusted both, it is still a little inaccurate because I did not work in the different evasion rates from the weapon sets, which would increase it a little again... but I am lazy. It should be around 45% then.

The total evade time is about 42%, so significantly better than mirage (and same as ele with about 42%).

Thanks!

The point with the attacks while dodging is still reversed of course. Don't use it as an argument for mirage. :tongue:

[BadMed.3846]

Please delete Mirage. It is way too OP.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Internal CD on stunbreak during mirage cloak,or give it the unhindered combatant treatment,there mirage fixed lol

[Alatar.7364]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Let's have a closer look into this. I just extended my sheet I made the other day.

Mirage build is from metabattle. Thief build with roll for initiative, I assumed perma vigor and spamming of sword 3 (with shortbow the value would be higher, but I guess that is not the problem here). I did not include distortion or instant reflexes. I admit another thing: I neglected some initiative regenerating with steal.

The values are all evade time per second, calculated by evade time divided by CD.

We can see, thief indeed has a higher evasion uptime, even without roll for initiative (even higher than ele, by the way).

But: only the first skill of sword 3 and daggerstorm do damage coupled with evades - while mirage can attack during all mirage mirrors and axe 3 - which is, funny enough,

the whole evasion uptime

.

I am too lazy to find out on my own so got to ask, did you include the fact that Mirage dodge evades for 1 second while dodges of other professions for 0.75?

Yepp, I did. :smile: That is why even with perma vigor on thief versus around 55ish % for mirage, mirage still has a higher evade uptime through pure dodging.

Did you count improved vigor or nah?

kitten, forgot about that! Now the evade time through dodging is better on thief indeed (0.129 versus 0.131).

On the other hand, sigil of energy is only used on one weapon set. I adjusted both, it is still a little inaccurate because I did not work in the different evasion rates from the weapon sets, which would increase it a little again... but I am lazy. It should be around 45% then.

The total evade time is about 42%, so significantly better than mirage (and same as ele with about 42%).

Thanks!

The point with the attacks while dodging is still reversed of course. Don't use it as an argument for mirage. :tongue:

Just to be sure again, I used to think the enhanced vigor speeds the regeneration by a lot I know that doesn't mean everyone does, but the enhanced vigor speeds it up only by 1 second faster than non enhanced vigor, is that included this way? =D

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Internal CD on stunbreak during mirage cloak,or give it the unhindered combatant treatment,there mirage fixed lol

What if I told you it already got the UC treatment?

[Megametzler.5729]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Let's have a closer look into this. I just extended my sheet I made the other day.

Mirage build is from metabattle. Thief build with roll for initiative, I assumed perma vigor and spamming of sword 3 (with shortbow the value would be higher, but I guess that is not the problem here). I did not include distortion or instant reflexes. I admit another thing: I neglected some initiative regenerating with steal.

The values are all evade time per second, calculated by evade time divided by CD.

We can see, thief indeed has a higher evasion uptime, even without roll for initiative (even higher than ele, by the way).

But: only the first skill of sword 3 and daggerstorm do damage coupled with evades - while mirage can attack during all mirage mirrors and axe 3 - which is, funny enough,

the whole evasion uptime

.

I am too lazy to find out on my own so got to ask, did you include the fact that Mirage dodge evades for 1 second while dodges of other professions for 0.75?

Yepp, I did. :smile: That is why even with perma vigor on thief versus around 55ish % for mirage, mirage still has a higher evade uptime through pure dodging.

Did you count improved vigor or nah?

kitten, forgot about that! Now the evade time through dodging is better on thief indeed (0.129 versus 0.131).

On the other hand, sigil of energy is only used on one weapon set. I adjusted both, it is still a little inaccurate because I did not work in the different evasion rates from the weapon sets, which would increase it a little again... but I am lazy. It should be around 45% then.

The total evade time is about 42%, so significantly better than mirage (and same as ele with about 42%).

Thanks!

The point with the attacks while dodging is still reversed of course. Don't use it as an argument for mirage. :tongue:

Just to be sure again, I used to think the enhanced vigor speeds the regeneration by a lot I know that doesn't mean everyone does, but the enhanced vigor speeds it up only by 1 second faster than non enhanced vigor, is that included this way? =D

The way I took it, vigor now increases endurance recovery by 75% instead of 50%. So you can dodge 1.75 times per 10 seconds, which makes it (with 0.75s per dodge) about 0.131 seconds of dodge per second, 13.1%. Without enhanced vigor it would be 11.3%. Without any vigor it would only be 7.5%.

Feel free to correct me if you find mistakes! :smile:

[Koen.1327]

i multiclass ranger, mes, engi, nec (scourge only), rev and honestly mirage is outclassed by all others i playit is a multifunctional spec however making it a safe choice, but i prefer holo for this

illusions bruiser build is not on par with scourge, chaos duelist is outperformed by soulbeast and mirage cant contest with rev/thief on any build as +1

nerfs i'd like to see to mirage:-deceptive evasion: add internal cooldown (maybe same as endurance regeneration), this skill adds major visual clutter probably what most people associate "clone spam" with. if this would kill the trait then ineptitude is still very viable with blinding trait.

-the ability to dodge while CC'd: has been mentioned since forever, feel free to dodge before getting hit by obvious animations and if you're late there's always staff 2, jaunt and actual stunbreakers(!)

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Internal CD on stunbreak during mirage cloak,or give it the unhindered combatant treatment,there mirage fixed lol

What if I told you it already got the UC treatment?

Ahh yes I apologize I forgot elusive mind was hit,my bad

[Cicada.6298]

so, as a returning player who is ultra-casual these days, and having never played Mesmer at all (never even created one), I decided to see what the fuss is about.

Made one an hour ago, jumped into pvp with the metabattle build and proceeded to press whatever cooldown was up; not far off from (literally) face rolling my keyboard, and won 3 matches -- the fact that anyone died to that probably signals there's a problem.

further, I'm at work on my laptop where I don't have my mouse with all my keybindings, so I was just clicking most skills XD

[Stallic.2397]

@Cicada.6298 said:so, as a returning player who is ultra-casual these days, and having never played Mesmer at all (never even created one), I decided to see what the fuss is about.

Made one an hour ago, jumped into pvp with the metabattle build and proceeded to press whatever cooldown was up; not far off from (literally) face rolling my keyboard, and won 3 matches -- the fact that anyone died to that probably signals there's a problem.

Same here. I usually play Chrono if I'm playing mesmer, but I decided to try the Meta condi mirage for once, last night. Dominated each fight. Easily +1'd. If I was having an issue, I just stealthed or teleported away. Getting focused? Dodge, invuln'd or lost targeting on axe skill 3. I never knew how carefree sPvp could be until playing as mirage. haha!

[Cicada.6298]

@Stallic.2397 said:

@Cicada.6298 said:so, as a returning player who is ultra-casual these days, and having never played Mesmer at all (never even created one), I decided to see what the fuss is about.

Made one an hour ago, jumped into pvp with the metabattle build and proceeded to press whatever cooldown was up; not far off from (literally) face rolling my keyboard, and won 3 matches -- the fact that

anyone

died to that probably signals there's a problem.

Same here. I usually play Chrono if I'm playing mesmer, but I decided to try the Meta condi mirage for once, last night. Dominated each fight. Easily +1'd. If I was having an issue, I just stealthed or teleported away. Getting focused? Dodge, invuln'd or lost targeting on axe skill 3. I never knew how carefree sPvp could be until playing as mirage. haha!

while I understand (at least from the tone of this thread) there isn't much representation for Mesmer in the highest/elite ranks, most of the player base isn't sitting up there — and, with mesmers being so oppressive in the hands of.....anyone, really — to the point where people don't even want to try to get better because it's so frustrating, that hurts the population — reducing the numbers of an already dying game mode.

[Cicada.6298]

@Stallic.2397 said:

@"Cicada.6298" said:so, as a returning player who is ultra-casual these days, and having never played Mesmer at all (never even created one), I decided to see what the fuss is about.

Made one an hour ago, jumped into pvp with the metabattle build and proceeded to press whatever cooldown was up; not far off from (literally) face rolling my keyboard, and won 3 matches -- the fact that

anyone

died to that probably signals there's a problem.

Same here. I usually play Chrono if I'm playing mesmer, but I decided to try the Meta condi mirage for once, last night. Dominated each fight. Easily +1'd. If I was having an issue, I just stealthed or teleported away. Getting focused? Dodge, invuln'd or lost targeting on axe skill 3. I never knew how carefree sPvp could be until playing as mirage. haha!

I will say that it was fun to "play" (as much as one could play a class with 5 minutes of experience), and I just may learn how to play the class, because winning games feelsgoodman

As an aside, I really only play ele, so I don't know how winning feels :p — I've had one person rage before the match even started because he "had an ele on his team"

[sephiroth.4217]

@"Zawn.9647" said:q: how do people decide that mirage is opa: playing against any of them

thx bye

It's sort of fun playing any build you want though and being successful...

I'm trolling some wierd build at the moment that has people raging... Duelist/Inspiration build with Signets and Mirror on evade, I swear I spend most of a fight "Invulnerable"...Then switch that too a disrupt version on Inspiration/Dom/Chrono with shield and again, be invulnerable for most of the time but whats important is the ferocity stacking from slow that you inflict with every disrupt along with Power Block and boon removal on shatters (doesnt seem like much until you stack 10s+ of slow and people are constantly forced to cleanse if they want to keep up).. Had a Mirage actually complain about my invuln uptime using CS timed with Signets and distortion, made me laugh.

I'm loving Inspiration line at the moment with Staff, literally shake off these condi mirages... But my poor Tempest is feeling unloved this season.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@Cicada.6298 said:so, as a returning player who is ultra-casual these days, and having never played Mesmer at all (never even created one), I decided to see what the fuss is about.

Made one an hour ago, jumped into pvp with the metabattle build and proceeded to press whatever cooldown was up; not far off from (literally) face rolling my keyboard, and won 3 matches -- the fact that anyone died to that probably signals there's a problem.

further, I'm at work on my laptop where I don't have my mouse with all my keybindings, so I was just clicking most skills XD

Won 3 out of 3 matches, or 3 out of more? Ranked or unranked? If ranked, what tier? And did you get many top stats or were you carried? Not trying to delegitimize your experience, but the details matter if we are to draw any sort of reasoned conclusion from your anecdote.

@Cicada.6298 said:I will say that it was fun to "play" (as much as one could play a class with 5 minutes of experience), and I just may learn how to play the class, because winning games feelsgoodman

Hopefully you'll continue playing that meta build and let us know how things fare in the long run. Streaks usually run both ways.

As an aside, I really only play ele, so I don't know how winning feels :p — I've had one person rage before the match even started because he "had an ele on his team"

If you continue with Mirage, be prepared to be judged if you win "for playing mirage", and if you lose "because you were mirage."

[phokus.8934]

Grenades aren’t necessarily hard to hit at max range when you have the option to snap ground target skills to your target.

And I’m not sure why you posted Jaws videos when it’s just filled with nonsense. He says he was sustaining sind when he was playing a sustain build. But his video rant has been debunked/countered with legitimate facts.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@phokus.8934 said:Grenades aren’t necessarily hard to hit at max range when you have the option to snap ground target skills to your target.

And I’m not sure why you posted Jaws videos when it’s just filled with nonsense. He says he was sustaining sind when he was playing a sustain build. But his video rant has been debunked/countered with legitimate facts.

I tried this option many years ago. It was great for cluster bomb and poison arrow, then I used infiltrations arrow :-/

[Megametzler.5729]

@Cicada.6298 said:

@Stallic.2397 said:

@Cicada.6298 said:so, as a returning player who is ultra-casual these days, and having never played Mesmer at all (never even created one), I decided to see what the fuss is about.

Made one an hour ago, jumped into pvp with the metabattle build and proceeded to press whatever cooldown was up; not far off from (literally) face rolling my keyboard, and won 3 matches -- the fact that

anyone

died to that probably signals there's a problem.

Same here. I usually play Chrono if I'm playing mesmer, but I decided to try the Meta condi mirage for once, last night. Dominated each fight. Easily +1'd. If I was having an issue, I just stealthed or teleported away. Getting focused? Dodge, invuln'd or lost targeting on axe skill 3. I never knew how carefree sPvp could be until playing as mirage. haha!

while I understand

(at least from the tone of this thread)

there isn't much representation for Mesmer in the highest/elite ranks, (...)

I know you inserted those little brackets, but I just wanted to point out that that seems to be more of an illusionary fact. :wink: The only actual data we have is what @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" posted: 14% for 1400+ which is significantly more than should be (11% per class).

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:It's all about rock, paper, scissors. Every class/build in the game has a hard counter; except for 1, Mirages. Even thiefs are semi-predictable, but Mirages on the other hand have no direct counter. What class out there exists that when a Mirage player looks at it, thinks to themselves "oh kitten, it's over". There is none. There needs to be some sort of build out there that even in the hands of a terrible player, would wipe the floor with an expert Mirage player with ease. That needs to exist to bring them in line.

Only Goku, he can move faster than mirage cloak.

[apharma.3741]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Cicada.6298 said:

@Stallic.2397 said:

@Cicada.6298 said:so, as a returning player who is ultra-casual these days, and having never played Mesmer at all (never even created one), I decided to see what the fuss is about.

Made one an hour ago, jumped into pvp with the metabattle build and proceeded to press whatever cooldown was up; not far off from (literally) face rolling my keyboard, and won 3 matches -- the fact that

anyone

died to that probably signals there's a problem.

Same here. I usually play Chrono if I'm playing mesmer, but I decided to try the Meta condi mirage for once, last night. Dominated each fight. Easily +1'd. If I was having an issue, I just stealthed or teleported away. Getting focused? Dodge, invuln'd or lost targeting on axe skill 3. I never knew how carefree sPvp could be until playing as mirage. haha!

while I understand

(at least from the tone of this thread)

there isn't much representation for Mesmer in the highest/elite ranks, (...)

I know you inserted those little brackets, but I just wanted to point out that that seems to be more of an illusionary fact. :wink: The only actual data we have is what @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" posted: 14% for 1400+ which is significantly

more

than should be (11% per class).

You would need more data to understand if 14% was "significantly more than it should be". Generally speaking if it was less than 1 standard deviation I wouldn't call it significant and most institutes require it be over 2 standard deviations to be statistically significant, though with low numbers of classes 1 SD would be significant enough.

11% is a hypothetical ideal, it is not the mean nor is it something I would worry about classes deviating from by a few percentiles in a season. Now if it was 20% to 40% that would mean nearly every game has anywhere between 2 and 4 of that class....like back when scourge would face roll you to platinum.

Yes there needs to be some adjustments with mirage, I have made numerous posts detailing what I would do and it's mostly around toning down the conditions output and removing the torment in favour of something slower to build up.