Why I hate OH Sword's design.

Kain Francois.4328 · March 5, 2019

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

Axe is similar to Sword OH but I'd say the nuances make it different enough.

Axe #5 has very little in common with Sword #4

Sword #4 is an immobilize with a long windup that does a lot of damage, while Axe #5 is a hard-cc that pulls many foes to center so that you may synergize with Mace #2. The whole premise behind Mace/Axe combo was to force a dilemma onto foes of running and triggering Torment, or staying still in a burn field. Now Axe #5 applies confusion, making it very interesting in condi rotations.

As for Axe #4 versus Sword #5, they are very different as well. Sword #5 is a shadowstep that teleports you instantly, and can be used for mobility. Whereas Axe #4 requires enemy to be hit, and is unblockable.

You are right though that the condis are too similar. I think Chill should be removed from Sword OH, and no one would complain. Meanwhile they should consider adding Chill to Axe #5 in order to proc more Torment and help keep foes in the aoe that Axe #5 was designed to support. They should also buff Axe #4 a bit by increasing its power damage to be competitive with Sword, and more importantly, they should give it some condi application.

tl;dr: Axe and Sword both have nuances which make them unique. However, Axe is overshadowed because it is a weak weapon that needs a buff.

Scoobaniec.9561 · March 5, 2019

@Kain Francois.4328 said:They should also buff Axe #4 a bit by increasing its power damage

Why tho? Axe was meant to be be a utility/condi weapon to help mace up line up enemies for maximum potential damage. Sword 5 sucked before. Theres no reason to buff power damage on axe 4 to match a power weapon. We might as well start talking about staff and buffing it dps to match sword. Honestly speaking i feel like it axe is in a good spot and theres no need to any buff. At worst some poison to axe 4 but thats it.

Sword OH is the issue imo. The block need to come back and require your enemy to trigger the blocks to let you use shackling wave imo.

Kain Francois.4328 · March 5, 2019

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:
@Kain Francois.4328 said:They should also buff Axe #4 a bit by increasing its power damage

Why tho?

Because a good weapon design is able to be adapted to multiple different builds. This is very important on a class with limited weapon variety, otherwise you end up with a situation like Engineer where Pistol is an extreme of condi and Rifle is an extreme of power.

For a Power Rev, Axe OH could be useful to gank a defending foe in PvP. As for PvE, some revs may want to take Axe OH for an exta CC, and Frigid Blast having a slight damage boost will make it more competitive.

DonArkanio.6419 · March 5, 2019

@Kain Francois.4328 said:
@Scoobaniec.9561 said:
@Kain Francois.4328 said:They should also buff Axe #4 a bit by increasing its power damage

Why tho?

Because a good weapon design is able to be adapted to multiple different builds. This is very important on a class with limited weapon variety, otherwise you end up with a situation like Engineer where Pistol is an extreme of condi and Rifle is an extreme of power.

For a Power Rev, Axe OH could be useful to gank a defending foe in PvP. As for PvE, some revs may want to take Axe OH for an exta CC, and Frigid Blast having a slight damage boost will make it more competitive.

Well, then OH Sword is a bad design because it can't be adapted to work Condition, whereas Axe can and did for the majority of Revenant's existence (doing good).The only bonus to Condition you get from running OH Sword is 1 proc of Chill (which applies Torment if traited).

As you said. This is very important on a class that has very limited weapon choice. Now, OH Sword is uncompareable in damage with Axe, but that doesn't mean it's the Axe that should be buffed - it's a straight powercreep, like not nerfing boon output on Guardian but rather increase boon output on every other class.

OH Sword doesn't provide Revenant with anything new. Just the damage. That's my point. I don't want to nerf the damage - let it be massive, but you can't tell me that both OH Sword skills is an interesting design and brings anything new to the class.

Sword 4. Now, what do you think about 2-cast Counter/Block with Massive damage followup? Remove the 1s cast time, because you already have a block animation.Sword 5. This one is hard because beside damage and shadowstep it doesn't provide anything. I'd suggest going with Spear 4. mechanic - if the tp to target has to stay. If not, I'd rework this skill 100%.

narcx.3570 · March 5, 2019

@DonArkanio.6419 said:
Well, then OH Sword is a bad design because it can't be adapted to work Condition, whereas Axe can and did for the majority of Revenant's existence (doing good).The only bonus to Condition you get from running OH Sword is 1 proc of Chill (which applies Torment if traited).

How is OH Sword not useful for a condi build..? Most condi builds lack mobility, which sword gives you plenty of. Most condi builds also lack access to fury, which sword gives you. And sword gives you chill, which means moar torment. Sword is also your only access to immob, which is probably the only way you'll ever get somebody to eat more than one second of Unyielding Anguish or Searing Fissure.

Just because it doesn't directly apply a bunch of direct condi damage doesn't make it useless for people who understand their class. Honestly death strike is so good that it should be a core-skill for any competitive game-mode build. A don't leave home without it sort of thing.

Oh the flip side, you have axe4, a movement skill that is so un-usable outside of PvE that it might as well not even exist... And yet, everyone clamors for changes to sword? The one weapon we have that actually works? lulz. :bleep_bloop:

Scoobaniec.9561 · March 6, 2019

@Kain Francois.4328 said:
@Scoobaniec.9561 said:
@Kain Francois.4328 said:They should also buff Axe #4 a bit by increasing its power damage

Why tho?

Because a good weapon design is able to be adapted to multiple different builds. This is very important on a class with limited weapon variety, otherwise you end up with a situation like Engineer where Pistol is an extreme of condi and Rifle is an extreme of power.

For a Power Rev, Axe OH could be useful to gank a defending foe in PvP. As for PvE, some revs may want to take Axe OH for an exta CC, and Frigid Blast having a slight damage boost will make it more competitive.

So basically most weapons in this game needs to be reworked. I want axe/axe condi warrior, i want rev hammer to work on condi builds etc.Weapons also have a designed role, axe happened to be designed with mace in mind and it does a goob job at what it was meant to be.

Swords (both mh and oh) idk what are meant to be at all. Especially sword mh since aa rewards for grouping mobs but 2 and 3 split it damage to ridiculous low numbers.

Vasdamas Anklast.1607 · March 7, 2019

Conclusion: Rev is lacking a weapon and utility skills.

What will we get? Meh probably another rework for existing weapon one day

DonArkanio.6419 · March 7, 2019

@"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said:Conclusion: Rev is lacking a weapon and utility skills.
What will we get? Meh probably another rework for existing weapon one day

This is the result of rushing the class before HoT release. Now, I'm sure people would feel very annoyed if Revenant got another weapon "for free". And I get it.Revenant should have more weapons to choose from but it doesn't change the fact that weapon sets that are already available to Revs are very limited.

DonArkanio.6419 · March 7, 2019

@narcx.3570 said:
@DonArkanio.6419 said:
Well, then OH Sword is a bad design because it can't be adapted to work Condition, whereas Axe can and did for the majority of Revenant's existence (doing good).The only bonus to Condition you get from running OH Sword is 1 proc of Chill (which applies Torment
if
traited).

How is OH Sword not useful for a condi build..? Most condi builds lack mobility, which sword gives you plenty of. Most condi builds also lack access to fury, which sword gives you. And sword gives you chill, which means moar torment. Sword is also your only access to immob, which is probably the only way you'll ever get somebody to eat more than one second of Unyielding Anguish or Searing Fissure.

Just because it doesn't directly apply a bunch of direct condi damage doesn't make it useless for people who understand their class. Honestly death strike is so good that it should be a core-skill for any competitive game-mode build. A don't leave home without it sort of thing.

Oh the flip side, you have axe4, a movement skill that is so un-usable outside of PvE that it might as well not even exist... And yet, everyone clamors for changes to sword? The one weapon we have that actually works? lulz. :bleep_bloop:

Well, just because someone doesn't like the weapon design and doesn't think it fits into anything but the raw damage doesn't mean you have to imply that it's L2P issue - not knowing your class enough.I'm not the best Rev out there but I definitely got to know my class in those 4 years. And I'm not saying that I know what's best for the class. I'm simply saying that OH Sword's design is uninteresting and should be reworked. You can say your opinion, but argumenting your statement by saying that it's just knowing your class is pretty bland for me. It's really just like before every Mesmer balance patch.

You mention what usage Swords have in condi builds - because they apply Chill and Fury - just what Revenant needs. But don't you think that is just an additional effect to the weapon? We're talking boons and condis that weapon has in addition to the skills themselves. You could even say that Hammer can be used for condi builds and it's perfect for it because it gives Chill = Torment (if traited) and gives Revenant other stuff - evade, projectile block, knockdown and burst.I'm talking about the design of skills. There's nothing interesting in teleporting to your target and hitting it with a normal attack. It's just boring imo.

As for me, OH Sword's performance can stay the same, but the design should be changed for sure.

Dadnir.5038 · March 7, 2019

Truth be told, I liked OH sword in it's first design, well, mostly skill #4. I used it in every gamemode favoring it over shield because the block was superior in any way to what the shield gave us. Though I didn't quite like skill #5, it had some use against players to prevent a stomp or put someone out of point. PvP wise both skill were usefull utilities.

This new design of OH sword made me give up on the weapon despite skill #5 being now, in my opinion, more usefull for the simple reason that I originally took this weapon for the block which is often needed in any gamemode.

Vasdamas Anklast.1607 · March 7, 2019

@DonArkanio.6419 said:
@"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said:Conclusion: Rev is lacking a weapon and utility skills.
What will we get? Meh probably another rework for existing weapon one day

This is the result of rushing the class before HoT release. Now, I'm sure people would feel very annoyed if Revenant got another weapon "for free". And I get it.Revenant should have more weapons to choose from but it doesn't change the fact that weapon sets that are already available to Revs are very limited.

We also get fewer utility skills but yeah I agree. If Anet was capable of that everyone would start calling rev anet's favourite child. Bet mesmer mains would exploit that for sure. You know, to shift said status from them

Knighthonor.4061 · March 17, 2019

Original skill 5 was so freaking broken bugged and rarely worked for me in combat due to slight movement when teleport. Was a terrible skill. New OHSword is elite times better. Improve main hand sword animation and I have little to complain about in that area.

Thornwolf.9721 · March 18, 2019

The recent changes to Sword off-hand has made it complete crap, Like they slowed our burst and lowered the numbers for better tells so that plebs wouldn't get obliterated removing us from any form of burst capability. As the wind up now is so slow and the damage if it hits still is not where it should be, Personally Id like them to return the black mechanic on it so we have a mobile block skill? And then revert the damage back to its mass burst and make the multi-strike beast mode variant be the secondary application, Meaning if you're fighting someone who is bursting you and block you then return the burst making it really good against rangers and warriors heck even guardians. Or really anyone for that matter~

Shiro in my opinion should be our One v One dueling king as he was one of the BEST fighters in his time, and even went toe to toe with armies when he was empowered and was so promising and capable the emperor wanted him to be his personal body guard. I feel like he should have more tools for standing in and fighting, I Feel that Jade daggers should be changed to his actual Eliet skill from GW1 known as "Battle Scars" Which is basically like glints heal except it reflected damaged, and he had to be cc'd to get him out of his meditation or he would hard cleave you and heal. Then rather than jade winds you could give us "Celestial Might" Where you for a moment take on shiros power, and gain a significant damage increase as well speed with a jade aura that slows people around you. It could destroy projectiles shot or even reflect them, and cause you to become basically a "Super saiyan revenant".

But I mean I feel Mallyx needs a hard rework as well, revert him to beta Mallyx where he was all about reflecting condis and make him the bane to ANYONE PLAYING A CONDI BASED CHAR. Heals on condi placed, reflects condis back and basically just immune to condition damage while lacking the mobility of shiro thus making him more viable on his own while making him compliment Glint, Shiro or jalis. You could run a quick leap in, leap out condi Rev or simply be a tanky bunker who just throws everything back onto your foe.

I mean ventari got a rework and is solid, lets give these other legends some love too... We need to bring more to the table as a hybrid stance dancer.

DonArkanio.6419 · March 18, 2019

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:The recent changes to Sword off-hand has made it complete kitten, Like they slowed our burst and lowered the numbers for better tells so that plebs wouldn't get obliterated removing us from any form of burst capability. As the wind up now is so slow and the damage if it hits still is not where it should be, Personally Id like them to return the black mechanic on it so we have a mobile block skill? And then revert the damage back to its mass burst and make the multi-strike beast mode variant be the secondary application, Meaning if you're fighting someone who is bursting you and block you then return the burst making it really good against rangers and warriors heck even guardians. Or really anyone for that matter~
Shiro in my opinion should be our One v One dueling king as he was one of the BEST fighters in his time, and even went toe to toe with armies when he was empowered and was so promising and capable the emperor wanted him to be his personal body guard. I feel like he should have more tools for standing in and fighting, I Feel that Jade daggers should be changed to his actual Eliet skill from GW1 known as "Battle Scars" Which is basically like glints heal except it reflected damaged, and he had to be cc'd to get him out of his meditation or he would hard cleave you and heal. Then rather than jade winds you could give us "Celestial Might" Where you for a moment take on shiros power, and gain a significant damage increase as well speed with a jade aura that slows people around you. It could destroy projectiles shot or even reflect them, and cause you to become basically a "Super saiyan revenant".
But I mean I feel Mallyx needs a hard rework as well, revert him to beta Mallyx where he was all about reflecting condis and make him the bane to ANYONE PLAYING A CONDI BASED CHAR. Heals on condi placed, reflects condis back and basically just immune to condition damage while lacking the mobility of shiro thus making him more viable on his own while making him compliment Glint, Shiro or jalis. You could run a quick leap in, leap out condi Rev or simply be a tanky bunker who just throws everything back onto your foe.
I mean ventari got a rework and is solid, lets give these other legends some love too... We need to bring more to the table as a hybrid stance dancer.

Well, I'm all for Sword 4 Block>Shackling Waves. This would make that skill more readable and healthy for everyone. There isn't more clear tell then "Blocked, blocked, blocked, blocked...". As for Sword 5, well. I just want it to be interesting and atm I don't find anything fun about it, except burst.

About Shiro. It's sad that Shiro as a Core legend is still superior to any E-Spec legend Revenant has. As you said, channeling Shiro should allow you to be a great duelist, not a Thief, we already have that in game, right? I don't think that it needs that massive heals and projectiles blocks, etc. but rather something that would make him feel powerful. Because to be honest, even though Rite of the Great Dwarf is considered bad, I feel great using it and the Jade Winds has nce effect but is underwhelming as a skill.

I'm with you here. I want Beta Mallyx so badly. If random teleports would be tweaked to not be so random I'm all for it. I just the uniqueness of Mallyx. It was one of the most unique designs GW2 had back in the day. Yet, they remade it into a Torment spam-machine.

DonArkanio.6419 · March 18, 2019

@DonArkanio.6419 said:
@"Thornwolf.9721" said:

Well, I'm all for Sword 4 Block>Shackling Waves. This would make that skill more readable and healthy for everyone. There isn't more clear tell then "Blocked, blocked, blocked, blocked...". As for Sword 5, well. I just want it to be interesting and atm I don't find anything fun about it, except burst.

About Shiro. It's sad that Shiro as a Core legend is still superior to any E-Spec legend Revenant has. As you said, channeling Shiro should allow you to be a great duelist, not a Thief, we already have that in game, right? I don't think that it needs that massive heals and projectiles blocks, etc. but rather something that would make him feel powerful. Because to be honest, even though Rite of the Great Dwarf is considered bad, I feel great using it and the Jade Winds has nce effect but is underwhelming as a skill.

I'm with you here. I want Beta Mallyx so badly. If random teleports would be tweaked to not be so random I'm all for it. I just love the uniqueness of Mallyx. It was one of the most unique designs GW2 had back in the day. Yet, they remade it into a Torment spam-machine.

I'm sad that Revenant lost so much of its identity with PoF and need for Condi damage (Mallyx rework), burst damage and stuff..

Thornwolf.9721 · March 18, 2019

@DonArkanio.6419 said:
@DonArkanio.6419 said:
@"Thornwolf.9721" said:

Well, I'm all for Sword 4 Block>Shackling Waves. This would make that skill more readable and healthy for everyone. There isn't more clear tell then "Blocked, blocked, blocked, blocked...". As for Sword 5, well. I just want it to be interesting and atm I don't find anything fun about it, except burst.

About Shiro. It's sad that Shiro as a Core legend is still superior to any E-Spec legend Revenant has. As you said, channeling Shiro should allow you to be a great duelist, not a Thief, we already have that in game, right? I don't think that it needs that massive heals and projectiles blocks, etc. but rather something that would make him feel powerful. Because to be honest, even though Rite of the Great Dwarf is considered bad, I feel great using it and the Jade Winds has nce effect but is underwhelming as a skill.

I'm with you here. I want Beta Mallyx so badly. If random teleports would be tweaked to not be so random I'm all for it. I just love the uniqueness of Mallyx. It was one of the most unique designs GW2 had back in the day. Yet, they remade it into a Torment spam-machine.

I'm sad that Revenant lost so much of its identity with PoF and need for Condi damage (Mallyx rework), burst damage and stuff..

I get why they changed mallyx in HoT I really do because back then we didn't have the mass condi spam we have now. But Right now he would be a monster and I Feel like they should allow us to have that, I mean anyone using condi would have a really bad day. And we would be unstoppable to them but weak to power builds so that is the counter here ~ Which would make us way more usable outside of PvE as a condi rev.

I feel like Power needs a rework, the rev as a whole does in various areas to make it more in line with the current game as it still feels semi-unfinished. Like I Said if we can't choose our utilities then make them damn good and something WE WANT TO USE. Rather than us having a few we use, and some we just ignore...

DonArkanio.6419 · March 18, 2019

@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@DonArkanio.6419 said:
@DonArkanio.6419 said:
@Thornwolf.9721 said:

Well, I'm all for Sword 4 Block>Shackling Waves. This would make that skill more readable and healthy for everyone. There isn't more clear tell then "Blocked, blocked, blocked, blocked...". As for Sword 5, well. I just want it to be interesting and atm I don't find anything fun about it, except burst.

About Shiro. It's sad that Shiro as a Core legend is still superior to any E-Spec legend Revenant has. As you said, channeling Shiro should allow you to be a great duelist, not a Thief, we already have that in game, right? I don't think that it needs that massive heals and projectiles blocks, etc. but rather something that would make him feel powerful. Because to be honest, even though Rite of the Great Dwarf is considered bad, I feel great using it and the Jade Winds has nce effect but is underwhelming as a skill.

I'm with you here. I want Beta Mallyx so badly. If random teleports would be tweaked to not be so random I'm all for it. I just love the uniqueness of Mallyx. It was one of the most unique designs GW2 had back in the day. Yet, they remade it into a Torment spam-machine.

I'm sad that Revenant lost so much of its identity with PoF and need for Condi damage (Mallyx rework), burst damage and stuff..

I get why they changed mallyx in HoT I really do because back then we didn't have the mass condi spam we have now. But Right now he would be a monster and I Feel like they should allow us to have that, I mean anyone using condi would have a really bad day. And we would be unstoppable to them but weak to power builds so that is the counter here ~ Which would make us way more usable outside of PvE as a condi rev.

I feel like Power needs a rework, the rev as a whole does in various areas to make it more in line with the current game as it still feels semi-unfinished. Like I Said if we can't choose our utilities then make them kitten good and something WE WANT TO USE. Rather than us having a few we use, and some we just ignore...

We're getting off the OH Sword point here, but yeah. It's understandable why they wanted to rework Mallyx, but it became boring as hell.

Every legend suffers from this design. Every legend was designed to work both in PvE and in PvP, so there's always a situation that in either mode you won't be using 50% of your legends' utilities.

Forced Engagement (PvP)
Rite of the Great Dwarf (PvP)
Phase Traversal (PvP) - no use for PvE
Riposting Shadows (PvP) - not so much pve
Pain Absorption (PvP) - no real use for PvE
Banish Enchantment (PvP)etc.

Thornwolf.9721 · March 18, 2019

@DonArkanio.6419 said:
@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@DonArkanio.6419 said:
@DonArkanio.6419 said:
@Thornwolf.9721 said: