With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

[mortrialus.3062]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@"mortrialus.3062" said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

[Vagrant.7206]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

[Burnfall.9573]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

-1why be rude??

[Vagrant.7206]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

-1

why be rude??

He's joking about the intelligence level of warriors. Not being rude to me.

[Pengu.7481]

@"Vagrant.7206" said:"Striking a foe while you're stealthed triggers Invisible Analysis."

Is that what you mean?

[Vagrant.7206]

@toxic.3648 said:

@"Vagrant.7206" said:"Striking a foe while

you're

stealthed triggers Invisible Analysis."

Is that what you mean?

I enjoy watching you make an engineer just to take a screenshot. :smile:

And alright you got me on that. So now what's your point about reveal?

[Burnfall.9573]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

-1

why be rude??

He's joking about the intelligence level of warriors. Not being rude to me.

https://imgur.com/jPucH5F

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

Oh now uve gone and done it Morty. Burny the toxicity avenger had deemed ur reply toxic and has come to make sure u pay dearly oh so dearly for ur toxic sins.Prepare thy self for a vid from 2013 showing the error of ur ways followed by a random quote debasing toxicity and ur misguided toxic ways.

I wish u luck and hope u have learned from this experience.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

why be rude??

I thought it was a funny joke.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

Oh now uve gone and done it Morty. Burny the toxicity avenger had deemed ur reply toxic and has come to make sure u pay dearly oh so dearly for ur toxic sins.Prepare thy self for a vid from 2013 showing the error of ur ways followed by a random quote debasing toxicity and ur misguided toxic ways.

I wish u luck and hope u have learned from this experience.

Burnfall is going to burnfall. A lot of people scratch their head at them but I like him, personally.

[coro.3176]

Nerfing Healing Turret is really really really not the way to go about fixing Holo.

If you do that, you only make people EVEN MORE reliant on Holo and Scrapper.

If the problem is the elite specs, nerf the elite specs! or fix them.

Holo is good because it gets great damage and gives up (essentially) nothing. Solutions? Make it give up more skills to get photon forge (all toolbelt skills?). Make heat an actually punishing mechanic rather than trivially easy to manage. Take some sustain out of Heat Therapy.

If you nerf engi's standard heal (the one you definitely want to pick if you're not playing elixirs or gadgets or a support build), you only hurt core engi even more.

[Burnfall.9573]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

Oh now uve gone and done it Morty. Burny the toxicity avenger had deemed ur reply toxic and has come to make sure u pay dearly oh so dearly for ur toxic sins.Prepare thy self for a vid from 2013 showing the error of ur ways followed by a random quote debasing toxicity and ur misguided toxic ways.

I wish u luck and hope u have learned from this experience.

+1good one lol

[Burnfall.9573]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

why be rude??

I thought it was a funny joke.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

Oh now uve gone and done it Morty. Burny the toxicity avenger had deemed ur reply toxic and has come to make sure u pay dearly oh so dearly for ur toxic sins.Prepare thy self for a vid from 2013 showing the error of ur ways followed by a random quote debasing toxicity and ur misguided toxic ways.

I wish u luck and hope u have learned from this experience.

Burnfall is going to burnfall. A lot of people scratch their head at them but I like him, personally.

+1I like you too my friend

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

Oh now uve gone and done it Morty. Burny the toxicity avenger had deemed ur reply toxic and has come to make sure u pay dearly oh so dearly for ur toxic sins.Prepare thy self for a vid from 2013 showing the error of ur ways followed by a random quote debasing toxicity and ur misguided toxic ways.

I wish u luck and hope u have learned from this experience.

+1

good one lol

Although very rare, I have my moments.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

-1

why be rude??

He's joking about the intelligence level of warriors. Not being rude to me.

Basically.

The real answer is that being able to have the high amount of healing per second Healing Signet provides with 0 cast time or fear of being interrupted is extremely ideal for Spellbreaker's playstyle. No matter what you're doing, hiding behind shield wall, chaining dodge rolls and evades, going on the offense it's like you're perpetually healing for a full healing skill value quietly in the background and zero fear of being interrupted at a crucial moment, unless you really need the resistance. And that overcomes how strong Mending has been boosted too while no one was looking.

When you see warriors divorced from that play style, or running non-meta builds like Core Warrior or

, builds where they're trying not be under fire 100% of the time they're often running Mending because it is genuinely an extremely strong heal.

And if you're good enough to toss just one hololeap, jump shot, or Holographic Shockwave into Heal Turret it beats Mending, too.

[Solo.6873]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@toxic.3648 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:"Striking a foe while

you're

stealthed triggers Invisible Analysis."

Is that what you mean?

I enjoy watching you make an engineer just to take a screenshot. :smile:

And alright you got me on that. So now what's your point about reveal?

I think the point was going back to @Crab Fear.1624 and @Trevor Boyer.6524 's post about engineer having the tools of most classes in one build.And Toxic proving that even reveal is in fact a tool they have access to.

[Shiyo.3578]

@"coro.3176" said:Nerfing Healing Turret is really really really not the way to go about fixing Holo.

If you do that, you only make people EVEN MORE reliant on Holo and Scrapper.

If the problem is the elite specs, nerf the elite specs! or fix them.

Holo is good because it gets great damage and gives up (essentially) nothing. Solutions? Make it give up more skills to get photon forge (all toolbelt skills?). Make heat an actually punishing mechanic rather than trivially easy to manage. Take some sustain out of Heat Therapy.

If you nerf engi's standard heal (the one you definitely want to pick if you're not playing elixirs or gadgets or a support build), you only hurt core engi even more.

The issue is holo smith is a """""""""""Glass cannon""""""""" but has the alchemy and inventions trees. They should be severely gutted as holosmith.

[White Kitsunee.4620]

If your implying that Healing turret needs to be nerfed I'd like to point you to med kit.Regardless nerfing engineer's healing Is the wrong direction to go in imo.As a long time engineer main holo fills in a really important niche that engineer has never had, so I really don't want to get rid of that.The damage and CC is fine, just making the spec less facerolly should be the direction to take.

1. Increase the cooldown of holoforge by around 3 to 5 seconds.
2. Nerf or rework vent exhaust valve and/or nerf access to vigor.
3. Increase heat generation by a tad on holoforge 2.

Do this and you'll see how squishy the class really is.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@toxic.3648 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:"Striking a foe while

you're

stealthed triggers Invisible Analysis."

Is that what you mean?

I enjoy watching you make an engineer just to take a screenshot. :smile:

And alright you got me on that. So now what's your point about reveal?

I think the point was going back to @Crab Fear.1624 and @Trevor Boyer.6524 's post about engineer having the tools of most classes in one build.And Toxic proving that even reveal is in fact a tool they have access to.

This is true. I'm not denying that engineer has access to some of the most tools in its arsenal. Part of its design.

[Pengu.7481]

@"Vagrant.7206" said:I enjoy watching you make an engineer just to take a screenshot. :smile:And alright you got me on that. So now what's your point about reveal?my point was to prove u wrong. and to say 2x reveal on 1 trait is a bit too much. i can live with the hitting the target reveals (reduce cd to 20 sec to compensate) and gut the cc part.

[coro.3176]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@"coro.3176" said:Nerfing Healing Turret is really really really not the way to go about fixing Holo.

If you do that, you only make people EVEN MORE reliant on Holo and Scrapper.

If the problem is the elite specs, nerf the elite specs! or fix them.

Holo is good because it gets great damage and gives up (essentially) nothing. Solutions? Make it give up more skills to get photon forge (all toolbelt skills?). Make heat an actually punishing mechanic rather than trivially easy to manage. Take some sustain out of Heat Therapy.

If you nerf engi's standard heal (the one you definitely want to pick if you're not playing elixirs or gadgets or a support build), you only hurt core engi even more.

The issue is holo smith is a """""""""""Glass cannon""""""""" but has the alchemy and inventions trees. They should be severely gutted as holosmith.

Sort of.

The reason it is able to take those trees and also take defensive utility skills and still put out crazy damage + CC is because it gets Photon Forge effectively for free.

If core engi wanted to do that kind of damage, it would have to invest in offensive trees like Explosions and Firearms, then also slot offensive utility skills like Grenade Kit.

Thus, a damage-focused core build has to be a glass cannon, and a damage-focused holo .. doesn't.

[Vagrant.7206]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

-1

why be rude??

He's joking about the intelligence level of warriors. Not being rude to me.

Basically.

The real answer is that being able to have the high amount of healing per second Healing Signet provides with 0 cast time or fear of being interrupted is extremely ideal for Spellbreaker's playstyle. No matter what you're doing, hiding behind shield wall, chaining dodge rolls and evades, going on the offense it's like you're perpetually healing for a full healing skill value quietly in the background and zero fear of being interrupted at a crucial moment, unless you really need the resistance. And that overcomes how strong Mending has been boosted too while no one was looking.

When you see warriors divorced from that play style, or running non-meta builds like Core Warrior or

, builds where they're trying not be under fire 100% of the time they're often running Mending because it is genuinely an extremely strong heal.

And if you're good enough to toss just one hololeap, jump shot, or Holographic Shockwave into Heal Turret it beats Mending, too.

Aye, that is true. But that boosts the casting time of all this healing up to what... 2.5 seconds of casting time? That's a pretty long time for a healing skill.

If we're talking about interruption, healing turret provides many opportunities for enemies to interrupt:

1. Initial cast can be interrupted.
2. Turret overcharge can be interrupted with sufficient cleave damage (try putting HT down in the middle of a Reaper's spin2win, you'll see what I mean). If this happens, the engineer effectively only gets 2,520 from their heal, weaker than literally every other heal in the game.
3. The blast of the water field can be stopped if the turret is destroyed before detonation.
4. Any leap or blast can be interrupted, depends on the skill.
5. Regen can be corrupted, stripped, or stolen.

So yes, I don't deny that healing turret is powerful. But when you compare it to mending and healing signet on warrior, it has just as much, if not more counterplay.

[mortrialus.3062]

@"coro.3176" said:Nerfing Healing Turret is really really really not the way to go about fixing Holo.

If you do that, you only make people EVEN MORE reliant on Holo and Scrapper.

If the problem is the elite specs, nerf the elite specs! or fix them.

Holo is good because it gets great damage and gives up (essentially) nothing. Solutions? Make it give up more skills to get photon forge (all toolbelt skills?). Make heat an actually punishing mechanic rather than trivially easy to manage. Take some sustain out of Heat Therapy.

If you nerf engi's standard heal (the one you definitely want to pick if you're not playing elixirs or gadgets or a support build), you only hurt core engi even more.

A.E.D. is an excellent heal in the right hands. It's excellent enough to have actually seen some use on Holosmiths after Path of Fire. Not a lot, but some.

Elixir H is rock solid. It only looks embarrassing because it's competing with Healing Turret, which is almost objectively over powered.

Med Kit....

Okay you have a point there.

My personal prescription for Healing Turret does involve heavily nerfing the initial healing (30-40% imo), but elongating the water field duration by the same percentage. This would put Healing Turret a bit more inline with other "highly situational" healing skills. If all you do is pop the healing skill button it's decidedly mediocre. But for skilled engineers who know how to use the field to combo they can achieve amazing results out of. That's what I would do if I was a balance developer personally.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

What happens in wvw happens in pvp

Only if you ignore all of the buffs you can have in WvW.

WvW allows food, monuments, and mounts. It also doesn't discriminate by skill level, which makes it really hard to tell the real matchup of something based on video edits.

@mortrialus.3062 said:--snip--

I'll see your rant and raise you a

Mending

. Please, "do the math".

It's too high skill cap for most warriors to utilize properly.

It's a single button.

Did I stutter?

-1

why be rude??

He's joking about the intelligence level of warriors. Not being rude to me.

Basically.

The real answer is that being able to have the high amount of healing per second Healing Signet provides with 0 cast time or fear of being interrupted is extremely ideal for Spellbreaker's playstyle. No matter what you're doing, hiding behind shield wall, chaining dodge rolls and evades, going on the offense it's like you're perpetually healing for a full healing skill value quietly in the background and zero fear of being interrupted at a crucial moment, unless you really need the resistance. And that overcomes how strong Mending has been boosted too while no one was looking.

When you see warriors divorced from that play style, or running non-meta builds like Core Warrior or

, builds where they're trying not be under fire 100% of the time they're often running Mending because it is genuinely an extremely strong heal.

And if you're good enough to toss just one hololeap, jump shot, or Holographic Shockwave into Heal Turret it beats Mending, too.

Aye, that is true. But that boosts the casting time of all this healing up to what... 2.5 seconds of casting time? That's a pretty long time for a healing skill.

If we're talking about interruption, healing turret provides many opportunities for enemies to interrupt:

1. Initial cast can be interrupted.

This is the case with most healing skills.

2. Turret overcharge can be interrupted with sufficient cleave damage (try putting HT down in the middle of a Reaper's spin2win, you'll see what I mean). If this happens, the engineer effectively only gets 2,520 from their heal, weaker than literally every other heal in the game.
3. The blast of the water field can be stopped if the turret is destroyed before detonation.

Outside of literally running into a reaper's Death Spiral under what circumstances is your healing turret getting cleaved out before the 0.5 seconds the over charge happens?

You realize turrets still operate on 2012 rules in that they are structures that can't be critically hit and can't suffer conditions?

5,980 is A LOT of health when your critical strike chance, and thus ferocity, and also your condition damage and expertise might as well be zero.

4. Any leap or blast can be interrupted, depends on the skill.

Both core Engineer and Holosmith have a lot of abilities to make that more safe.

5. Regen can be corrupted, stripped, or stolen.I suppose but that's also the least impactful aspect of the skill.

[mortrialus.3062]

@"White Kitsunee.4620" said:If your implying that Healing turret needs to be nerfed I'd like to point you to med kit.

Oh I'm not implying. I'm hard saying it has been over due for a serious nerfing for years. Let there be no ambiguity in my statement.

Regardless nerfing engineer's healing Is the wrong direction to go in imo.As a long time engineer main holo fills in a really important niche that engineer has never had, so I really don't want to get rid of that.The damage and CC is fine, just making the spec less facerolly should be the direction to take.

Agreed. For that, I personally think we should bump Exit Photon Forge's cooldown up to 10 seconds base. And like someone else in this thread mentioned, Vent Exhaust's impact on heat can do with a nerf.

1. Increase the cooldown of holoforge by around 3 to 5 seconds.I think Exit should be 10 seconds. Reentering is basically irrelevant.

2. Nerf or rework vent exhaust valve and/or nerf access to vigor.

Agreed. Vent Exhaust should reduce heat by 5%, not 15%.

3. Increase heat generation by a tad on holoforge 2.Ehhhhhh. I'd rather bump the cooldown by a few seconds. Not a lot. But maybe from 2-4 seconds.