Guardian forced into support role (Squad-based WvW)?

[Maelwro.7562]

Hi folks,

Recently returned to the game after a very long time. In the past, I've alternated between Guardian and Revenant; with generally a preference for more offensive roles. I particularly enjoy the firebrand playstyle, but was curious if firebrand is expected to fill a support role in squads? (e.g., minstrels gear, etc.). Any comments would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

[Stand The Wall.6987]

yes, guard will always be support and guard mains will love this or they will suffer.there is no trinity level.

[Kaiser.9873]

Play your Rev.

[Zephyra.4709]

You will forever be locked into support firebrand jail, this is your life now.

Or you can just play rev and get plenty o' bags.

[LaGranse.8652]

Play however you like. Tell the commander you are not full support when you join on said firebrand so they can place you accordingly.

Or maybe they kick you cause of the "only support firebrands, scourges and hammer revs" mentality some commanders follow.

[Jski.6180]

Because anet will not give other classes stab support. Gurad is more then able to dps and cc but because its the only class in the game anet will allowed to have stab support it will always be forced into that roll as well as you being called out for playing a dps roll.

[TheUnknown.5204]

No class is forced to go in any role, Each class is differentGuardian is mostly support, You can build him to do condition damage and healing, I built him for condition damage in PvE, Healing power in pvp. (I recommend firebrand if you have the Path of fire expansion)He doesn't do a massive amount of damage but he's strong with his conditions.

[crepuscular.9047]

It's in their name "Guard"ian :)

[RisenHowl.2419]

No, you don't have to

[SexyMofo.8923]

Play whatever you want.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:

No, you don't have to

Guild Squads =/= Zerg Squad

In a group this small, you can play what you want.

In zergs, not so much.

To Op:

If i play necro i expect my firebrand to support me so that i can do dmg.

Same as the firebrand expects me to do dmg.

Its all about class synergy.

If you want to play dmg guardian, then you need another guardian for your support.

You compete with scourge on squad space.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:

No, you don't have to

Guild Squads =/= Zerg Squad

In a group this small, you can play what you want.

In zergs, not so much.

To Op:

If i play necro i expect my firebrand to support me so that i can do dmg.

Same as the firebrand expects me to do dmg.

Its all about class synergy.

If you want to play dmg guardian, then you need another guardian for your support.

You compete with scourge on squad space.

You would be competing with weaver, not scourge. Dps guard fills the same role with similar damage, it just provides stab, retal, and protection while weaver provides... only damage

[enkidu.5937]

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:

No, you don't have toGreat vid! :)

As I understand it, you apply burns first, and then cover them, so they are not converted to aegis? Or can this become an significant issue in bigger scaled fights, when burning is spread among more players with stack counts getting thinned out?

[Reverence.6915]

You'll be more useful in a pick up group as a support firebrand, but by no means are you forced to. You can go full DPS longbow Dragonhunter and get the big deeps, but if your group's frontline is trash, you will have no chance to output damage.

[Dediggefedde.4961]

@enkidu.5937 said:As I understand it, you apply burns first, and then cover them, so they are not converted to aegis? Or can this become an significant issue in bigger scaled fights, when burning is spread among more players with stack counts getting thinned out?

In our WvW guild setup we have two healscrappers and some aura-tempests, so we actually take less damage near mortar fire fields than outside. Also chilling mist tactics is great for alacrity. ^^ I think we can regularly cleanse all conditions on all members, so covering them does not work here.

However, that is highly situational. If you have lots of scourges in your zerg, then the burn will still do some damage despite healscrappers cleanse-count reaching 4 digits after some minutes fight. And if you face enemies that only thrust in their firebrands (one per group), They will melt once tomes are on CD.

Direct damage is a bit more reliable at the moment for that reason, but if you're having fun, there is no reason to not play burn guard in open zergs. Usually DH will automatically get sorted as damage dealer while burn-guards need to tell that they are not full-support.

[enkidu.5937]

@Dediggefedde.4961 said:

@enkidu.5937 said:As I understand it, you apply burns first, and then cover them, so they are not converted to aegis? Or can this become an significant issue in bigger scaled fights, when burning is spread among more players with stack counts getting thinned out?

In our WvW guild setup we have two healscrappers and some aura-tempests, so we actually take less damage near mortar fire fields than outside. Also chilling mist tactics is great for alacrity. ^^ I think we can regularly cleanse all conditions on all members, so covering them does not work here.

However, that is highly situational. If you have lots of scourges in your zerg, then the burn will still do some damage despite healscrappers cleanse-count reaching 4 digits after some minutes fight. And if you face enemies that only thrust in their firebrands (one per group), They will melt once tomes are on CD.

Direct damage is a bit more reliable at the moment for that reason, but if you're having fun, there is no reason to not play burn guard in open zergs. Usually DH will automatically get sorted as damage dealer while burn-guards need to tell that they are not full-support.Thx :)

[RisenHowl.2419]

@enkidu.5937 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:

No, you don't have toGreat vid! :)

As I understand it, you apply burns first, and then cover them, so they are not converted to aegis? Or can this become an significant issue in bigger scaled fights, when burning is spread among more players with stack counts getting thinned out?

That's correct, conditions are cleared on a last on-first off order. dh applies burn, then cripple, then vuln. scrappers, tempests, and fbs (other than f2-3,5 & last mantra charge) all remove 2 conditions at a time. So the majority of the damage gets through, i see on average a 30% cleanse rate against guild groups with an average duration of 2.8-2.9s out of 3s possible.

Most of the big damage skills on burn dh are 900 range too, so they sync up really well with scourge shades and wells for cover conditions. The only comp this build is useless against is groups with mallyx revs that are focusing on maintaining resistance, but those aren't particularly common.

@Reverence.6915 said:You'll be more useful in a pick up group as a support firebrand, but by no means are you forced to. You can go full DPS longbow Dragonhunter and get the big deeps, but if your group's frontline is trash, you will have no chance to output damage.

It's not a build that competes for slots with support fb, it competes with weavers. DPS DH definitely brings more to the table than weaver does for group support and it's much stronger in choke fights than weavers.

Don't play LB DH, it's too slow with too many roots and easily negated projectile damage.

@Dediggefedde.4961 said:

@enkidu.5937 said:As I understand it, you apply burns first, and then cover them, so they are not converted to aegis? Or can this become an significant issue in bigger scaled fights, when burning is spread among more players with stack counts getting thinned out?

In our WvW guild setup we have two healscrappers and some aura-tempests, so we actually take less damage near mortar fire fields than outside. Also chilling mist tactics is great for alacrity. ^^ I think we can regularly cleanse all conditions on all members, so covering them does not work here.

However, that is highly situational. If you have lots of scourges in your zerg, then the burn will still do some damage despite healscrappers cleanse-count reaching 4 digits after some minutes fight. And if you face enemies that only thrust in their firebrands (one per group), They will melt once tomes are on CD.

Direct damage is a bit more reliable at the moment for that reason, but if you're having fun, there is no reason to not play burn guard in open zergs. Usually DH will automatically get sorted as damage dealer while burn-guards need to tell that they are not full-support.

Double scrappers per party? You're right, that would negate most of the damage coming through but damn. What do you guys do for damage with 3 supports per party?

Build + Gameplay guide for anyone who wants it:

[Maelwro.7562]

Thanks all!

[RedShark.9548]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

No, you don't have to

Guild Squads =/= Zerg Squad

In a group this small, you can play what you want.

In zergs, not so much.

To Op:

If i play necro i expect my firebrand to support me so that i can do dmg.

Same as the firebrand expects me to do dmg.

Its all about class synergy.

If you want to play dmg guardian, then you need another guardian for your support.

You compete with scourge on squad space.

You would be competing with weaver, not scourge. Dps guard fills the same role with similar damage, it just provides stab, retal, and protection while weaver provides... only damage

Weaver has much farther range than scourge or guard, so id say he would compete with scourge, with alot less corrupts

[Dediggefedde.4961]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@"Dediggefedde.4961" said:In our WvW guild setup we have two healscrappers and some aura-tempests,Double scrappers per party? You're right, that would negate most of the damage coming through but kitten. What do you guys do for damage with 3 supports per party?

No, in our setup there are two. We don't run a party-setup, but a zerg-setup. None of the 3-5 groups look identical since we try to mix in 2-3 spellbreaker, a chronomancer, a daredevil, two scrappers, some aura tempests, some renegades and of course firebrands and scourges. Usually, every group has either a share-ele or a scrapper or a thief to make blasting smoke fields easier and have a better superspeed distribution. Renegades typically also go in groups different from scrapper to improve alacrity distribution. Spellbreakers typically go in a scrapper-group for the additional stability, superspeed and dmg reduction. All parties have a firebrand and most leftover spots are filled with scourges. In principle 2 scourges per group for two barrier spikes.With all that theory said this almost never happens since we are a more or less casual guild without mandatory attendance. Usually, groups are composed up more or less different in each raid.

1 scrapper is usually enough for 3 groups if each has a firebrand.I once saw a video where a zerg had a scrapper in each group, but that's already borderline DPS-wise.And of course, there is a video that zergs without guards also work: ^^

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Dediggefedde.4961 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Dediggefedde.4961 said:In our WvW guild setup we have two healscrappers and some aura-tempests,Double scrappers per party? You're right, that would negate most of the damage coming through but kitten. What do you guys do for damage with 3 supports per party?

No, in our

setup

there are two. We don't run a party-setup, but a zerg-setup. None of the 3-5 groups look identical since we try to mix in 2-3 spellbreaker, a chronomancer, a daredevil, two scrappers, some aura tempests, some renegades and of course firebrands and scourges. Usually, every group has either a share-ele or a scrapper or a thief to make blasting smoke fields easier and have a better superspeed distribution. Renegades typically also go in groups different from scrapper to improve alacrity distribution. Spellbreakers typically go in a scrapper-group for the additional stability, superspeed and dmg reduction. All parties have a firebrand and most leftover spots are filled with scourges. In principle 2 scourges per group for two barrier spikes.With all that theory said this almost never happens since we are a more or less casual guild without mandatory attendance. Usually, groups are composed up more or less different in each raid.

1 scrapper is usually enough for 3 groups if each has a firebrand.I once saw a video where a zerg had a scrapper in each group, but that's already borderline DPS-wise.And of course, there is a video that zergs without guards also work: ^^

Oh I see, what I've been testing this on is groups with a scrapper+fb per party. With sinister my burns get cleansed up to 30% of the time. Against a group with only a couple scrappers total, burn dh would melt you very quickly. Without a scrapper per party I start seeing 10k+ burn ticks lol

[RisenHowl.2419]

@RedShark.9548 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

No, you don't have to

Guild Squads =/= Zerg Squad

In a group this small, you can play what you want.

In zergs, not so much.

To Op:

If i play necro i expect my firebrand to support me so that i can do dmg.

Same as the firebrand expects me to do dmg.

Its all about class synergy.

If you want to play dmg guardian, then you need another guardian for your support.

You compete with scourge on squad space.

You would be competing with weaver, not scourge. Dps guard fills the same role with similar damage, it just provides stab, retal, and protection while weaver provides... only damage

Weaver has much farther range than scourge or guard, so id say he would compete with scourge, with alot less corrupts

Weaver has less defensive tools than dh, neither play right on top of your stack. Dh range is 900 and 1200, just gotta use your defenses to bomb, then move back out of range. Same playstyle as weaver, same damage, better support

[juno.1840]

"Play whatever you want" is a bit of a lie if you want to do anything other than small-scale roaming.

Like raids, you can't just bring what you want and expect to get into a squad. If you do the squad is likely trash and just a bunch of free bags for opposition running an organized squad composition.

No organized squad will waste a slot on a sub-optimum build/role. For FB, that's support. For Rev that's DPS.

Sorry, those are the facts.

[Kaiser.9873]

@Dediggefedde.4961 said:

@enkidu.5937 said:As I understand it, you apply burns first, and then cover them, so they are not converted to aegis? Or can this become an significant issue in bigger scaled fights, when burning is spread among more players with stack counts getting thinned out?

In our WvW guild setup we have two healscrappers and some aura-tempests, so we actually take less damage near mortar fire fields than outside. Also chilling mist tactics is great for alacrity. ^^ I think we can regularly cleanse all conditions on all members, so covering them does not work here.

However, that is highly situational. If you have lots of scourges in your zerg, then the burn will still do some damage despite healscrappers cleanse-count reaching 4 digits after some minutes fight. And if you face enemies that only thrust in their firebrands (one per group), They will melt once tomes are on CD.

Direct damage is a bit more reliable at the moment for that reason, but if you're having fun, there is no reason to not play burn guard in open zergs. Usually DH will automatically get sorted as damage dealer while burn-guards need to tell that they are not full-support.

So you play boon and cleanse roulette?

[RisenHowl.2419]

@"juno.1840" said:"Play whatever you want" is a bit of a lie if you want to do anything other than small-scale roaming.

Like raids, you can't just bring what you want and expect to get into a squad. If you do the squad is likely trash and just a bunch of free bags for opposition running an organized squad composition.

No organized squad will waste a slot on a sub-optimum build/role. For FB, that's support. For Rev that's DPS.

Sorry, those are the facts.

For weaver, that role is damage.

If you can get the same damage on dh along with 10 target stab, protection, power retal, reflect, and better defenses..... why on earth would you run weaver but not dh?