Remove automatic objective upgrades. Save WvW population.

[Chaba.5410]

@"Rednik.3809" said:It is hard already to find people to refresh siege or even just scout stuff, and people want to make already most boring and unrewarding part of the game even more boring and tiresome.I'm sure that all these guys who advocating this are definitely going to be ones who gonna spend hours every day running supply manually and upgrading stuff instead of fighting, right?

"PPT-for-fights" is the nature of "conquest" style game design though. Removing the necessity to interact with objectives further drove a wedge between fighting and so-called PPTing, which damages a game design where the intent is to fight over objectives ("conquest"). Objectives are supposed to exist to encourage fights. It's not too different from how removing the ability to treb garri from northern towers on desert bl helped kill fights on that bl. There's a smaller number of "fight lanes" on that map than on alpine and that's a direct result of the relationship objectives have to each other. When you remove that stuff, yea, you're going to lose people.

Also, escorting yaks didn't change when the upgrade mechanic was changed.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Chaba.5410" said:There's a smaller number of "fight lanes" on that map than on alpine and that's a direct result of the relationship objectives have to each other. When you remove that stuff, yea, you're going to lose people.Eh what? Its the complete opposite, theres so many paths 50 man zergs can walk past each other without noticing. From southwest tower there is like 5 paths to the south fire keep door as opposed to 1 wide on alpine. And thats just the beginning. This is one of the core issues of dbl, there waaaaay too many "lanes", not a smaller number.

[Riba.3271]

Yup. Auto upgrade system that doesnt take supply has lot of negative consequences for depth of WvW decisionmaking.Lot of these arguments for it only see things as black and white, ppt or ppk, but you have to take into accord off-prime and small groups

WvW shouldnt be reliant on having commander up always which is exactly what current system promotes; everything upgrades too fast without anyone around.

Having supply in keeps/towers ALWAYS is another offender that simplifies priorityordering up to a point where decisions become monodimensional.

I hope I am not one of the last few that find decisions, individuality, small groups and using your own brain fun alternative for everytime following an open-field commander with brain off.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

that's the players fault. removing this would hit lower pop servers more then the higher ones.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:that's the players fault. removing this would hit lower pop servers more then the higher ones.Only if poorly implemented.

They could just go hybrid - an objective would automatically upgrade, but there is a grace period between each tier that players can speed up by manually starting it. Then if you add different upgrade paths for various bonuses, that gives them further incentive to visit for manual upgrades rather than letting the keep manage itself. Even very simple things would be enough. Lets say for example that T2 (A) is "normal auto upgrade", but T2 (B) adds +200 supply capacity and T2 © make walls 20% stronger.

[Chaba.5410]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Chaba.5410" said:There's a smaller number of "fight lanes" on that map than on alpine and that's a direct result of the relationship objectives have to each other. When you remove that stuff, yea, you're going to lose people.Eh what? Its the complete opposite, theres so many paths 50 man zergs can walk past each other without noticing. From southwest tower there is like 5 paths to the south fire keep door as opposed to 1 wide on alpine. And thats just the beginning. This is one of the core issues of dbl, there

waaaaay too many

"lanes", not a smaller number.

That's not what I mean by fight lanes. They're not paths for movement, they are areas where fights happen. Yes, desert bl doesn't have as many as alpine bl.

This post will explain it better: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/434m26/wvw_guide_to_finding_fights_in_the_desert/

There's only two northern fight lanes on desert bl compared to the four on alpine.

[Chaba.5410]

@Threather.9354 said:I hope I am not one of the last few that find decisions, individuality, small groups and using your own brain fun alternative for everytime following an open-field commander with brain off.

Sadly, I've noticed that having simplified the game mode for the past few years has lead to a supply of players who don't seem to think about making any sort of decisions and just want to be on a tag all the time.

[Rednik.3809]

@Threather.9354 said:Yup. Auto upgrade system that doesnt take supply has lot of negative consequences for depth of WvW decisionmaking.Lot of these arguments for it only see things as black and white, ppt or ppk, but you have to take into accord off-prime and small groups

WvW shouldnt be reliant on having commander up always which is exactly what current system promotes; everything upgrades too fast without anyone around.

Having supply in keeps/towers ALWAYS is another offender that simplifies priorityordering up to a point where decisions become monodimensional.

I hope I am not one of the last few that find decisions, individuality, small groups and using your own brain fun alternative for everytime following an open-field commander with brain off.

Small groups, like ~10ppl, are already quite able to take undermanned T3 stuff via golem rushes or even just ramming, if you mind your supply and use guild rams. Everything below that would be quite unreasonable, you are NOT supposed to easily run around flipping T3 keeps with just 5 man party.

[Shining One.1635]

Will the players doing whatever activity is necessary for structure upgrades receive participation?

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Shining One.1635 said:Will the players doing whatever activity is necessary for structure upgrades receive participation?

That would depend. Prior, it was what the quartermaster was for (you may know that but others might not) and it usually requires a certain amount of supply or certain level to select an option for the next upgrade.

So I wouldn’t think it should give participation.

That being said, I would rather that be a server/world thing where commanders on map give a participation spot and that person is both a scout and an upgrader.

[hunkamania.7561]

The game was obviously better when players upgraded structures now it's just brain dead easy and there's zero connection to these structures. Could have just used badges to upgrade the structures instead of gold. The only players that post on these forums are anet white knights so good luck convincing them. When they're not defending all of anets bad moves. They're refreshing siege in game.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:There's a smaller number of "fight lanes" on that map than on alpine and that's a direct result of the relationship objectives have to each other. When you remove that stuff, yea, you're going to lose people.Eh what? Its the complete opposite, theres so many paths 50 man zergs can walk past each other without noticing. From southwest tower there is like 5 paths to the south fire keep door as opposed to 1 wide on alpine. And thats just the beginning. This is one of the core issues of dbl, there

waaaaay too many

"lanes", not a smaller number.

That's not what I mean by fight lanes. They're not paths for movement, they are areas where fights happen. Yes, desert bl doesn't have as many as alpine bl.

This post will explain it better:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/434m26/wvw_guide_to_finding_fights_in_the_desert/

There's only two northern fight lanes on desert bl compared to the four on alpine.

That doesnt explain it better, I consider it inaccurate. Also its based on the original DBL, not current DBL. DBL has tons more fight lanes. So many, so long and so complex they're all empty and unused. ABL is incredibly simple in comparison with everything within view as you stand in them. Thats what make it so good and allow zergs to be scouted and intercepted.

[Riba.3271]

@Rednik.3809 said:

@"Threather.9354" said:Yup. Auto upgrade system that doesnt take supply has lot of negative consequences for depth of WvW decisionmaking.Lot of these arguments for it only see things as black and white, ppt or ppk, but you have to take into accord off-prime and small groups

WvW shouldnt be reliant on having commander up always which is exactly what current system promotes; everything upgrades too fast without anyone around.

Having supply in keeps/towers ALWAYS is another offender that simplifies priorityordering up to a point where decisions become monodimensional.

I hope I am not one of the last few that find decisions, individuality, small groups and using your own brain fun alternative for everytime following an open-field commander with brain off.

Small groups, like ~10ppl, are already quite able to take undermanned T3 stuff via golem rushes or even just ramming, if you mind your supply and use guild rams. Everything below that would be quite unreasonable, you are NOT supposed to easily run around flipping T3 keeps with just 5 man party.

Nah this has barely anything to do with flipping things being too hard. It has with attacking and defending not having enough variance and meaningful decisions.

Nothing I said in my comment said t3 keeps full of supply should be easier to flip, just the journey there should require more time and player/group effort. More linear progression from t2 keep to t3 keep full of sups rather than just "it is done".

You might be surprised but things arent black and white, more of in gray area. Currently WvW changes have pushed WvW to too much of an comfort area where one doesnt have to challenge themselves as a human. If the game was for sloths, Id agree with the direction the gamemode has been going. For competitive gamemode to reach lasting level of fun, you should have alternative of using brain and alternative playstyles instead of just combat mechanics, this is true to any top PvP game like OW, LoL, pubg regardless of genre.

Yes you can still reset towers and upgrade keeps, but your efforts towards it hold almost no importance because the current WvW system. There is no substance behind ones actions up to a point where doing those actions feels unrewardings. WvW is currently running on nostalgia, habits and group spirit but has lost the emotions that arise from feeling of accomplishment and failure

[Riba.3271]

Empty comment. Messed up editing because on a phone for a change.

[Rednik.3809]

@"Threather.9354" said:Nah this has barely anything to do with flipping things being too hard. It has with attacking and defending not having enough variance and meaningful decisions.

Nothing I said in my comment said t3 keeps full of supply should be easier to flip, just the journey there should require more time and player/group effort. More linear progression from t2 keep to t3 keep full of sups rather than just "it is done".

You might be surprised but things arent black and white, more of in gray area. Currently WvW changes have pushed WvW to too much of an comfort area where one doesnt have to challenge themselves as a human. If the game was for sloths, Id agree with the direction the gamemode has been going. For competitive gamemode to reach lasting level of fun, you should have alternative of using brain and alternative playstyles instead of just combat mechanics, this is true to any top PvP game like OW, LoL, pubg regardless of genre.

Yes you can still reset towers and upgrade keeps, but your efforts towards it hold almost no importance because the current WvW system. There is no substance behind ones actions up to a point where doing those actions feels unrewardings. WvW is currently running on nostalgia, habits and group spirit but has lost the emotions that arise from feeling of accomplishment and failureYet, I cant see how forcing people to do more dull work will make WvW any better. Running supply and protecting/upgrading structures is STILL unrewarding, especially when it takes hours of such work to see it upgraded, and then it can be flipped in 5 minutes if help will lag.And then you realize that you had wasted half of the day for nothing while could just 111111111 in blob for like x10-x50 reward in terms of WXP and loot.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Rednik.3809 said:

@"Threather.9354" said:Nah this has barely anything to do with flipping things being too hard. It has with attacking and defending not having enough variance and meaningful decisions.

Nothing I said in my comment said t3 keeps full of supply should be easier to flip, just the journey there should require more time and player/group effort. More linear progression from t2 keep to t3 keep full of sups rather than just "it is done".

You might be surprised but things arent black and white, more of in gray area. Currently WvW changes have pushed WvW to too much of an comfort area where one doesnt have to challenge themselves as a human. If the game was for sloths, Id agree with the direction the gamemode has been going. For competitive gamemode to reach lasting level of fun, you should have alternative of using brain and alternative playstyles instead of just combat mechanics, this is true to any top PvP game like OW, LoL, pubg regardless of genre.

Yes you can still reset towers and upgrade keeps, but your efforts towards it hold almost no importance because the current WvW system. There is no substance behind ones actions up to a point where doing those actions feels unrewardings. WvW is currently running on nostalgia, habits and group spirit but has lost the emotions that arise from feeling of accomplishment and failureYet, I cant see how forcing people to do more dull work will make WvW any better. Running supply and protecting/upgrading structures is STILL unrewarding, especially when it takes hours of such work to see it upgraded, and then it can be flipped in 5 minutes if help will lag.And then you realize that you had wasted half of the day for nothing while could just 111111111 in blob for like x10-x50 reward in terms of WXP and loot.

aye. those with computers that cna handle fights will choose fights. those who cant will be scouts and roamers.

how would making things manual help? we already are few. and it probably will just be left to remain forever t0

[Riba.3271]

@Rednik.3809 said:

@"Threather.9354" said:Nah this has barely anything to do with flipping things being too hard. It has with attacking and defending not having enough variance and meaningful decisions.

Nothing I said in my comment said t3 keeps full of supply should be easier to flip, just the journey there should require more time and player/group effort. More linear progression from t2 keep to t3 keep full of sups rather than just "it is done".

You might be surprised but things arent black and white, more of in gray area. Currently WvW changes have pushed WvW to too much of an comfort area where one doesnt have to challenge themselves as a human. If the game was for sloths, Id agree with the direction the gamemode has been going. For competitive gamemode to reach lasting level of fun, you should have alternative of using brain and alternative playstyles instead of just combat mechanics, this is true to any top PvP game like OW, LoL, pubg regardless of genre.

Yes you can still reset towers and upgrade keeps, but your efforts towards it hold almost no importance because the current WvW system. There is no substance behind ones actions up to a point where doing those actions feels unrewardings. WvW is currently running on nostalgia, habits and group spirit but has lost the emotions that arise from feeling of accomplishment and failureYet, I cant see how forcing people to do more dull work will make WvW any better. Running supply and protecting/upgrading structures is STILL unrewarding, especially when it takes hours of such work to see it upgraded, and then it can be flipped in 5 minutes if help will lag.And then you realize that you had wasted half of the day for nothing while could just 111111111 in blob for like x10-x50 reward in terms of WXP and loot.

It isnt dull work. There are countless roamers you have to def camps against, siege the keep up, repair and communicate with allies. The fact that you think defending camps doesnt give you 1 fight per 5 min in average, way more than blobbing, just means you havent done it in meaningful manner.

You might not realise but using mount to run to a keep to order upgrade is very minimal effort for removal of passive upgrade mechanics. Also yes blobbing will still be materically more rewarding but tbf having 10 more people in a blob should be considerably less rewarding pointwise than having 10 scouts.

Yes these scouts also need tools to counter blobsieging to buy time to gather defenders which is why I suggested nerf of shield gens in another thread. Yes you would most likely lose 1 t3 keep/tower on map still but that objective bought you enough time to defend the rest.

I am not against autoupgrading idea that much, just speed of how fast things upgrade and the abundance of incoming supply. Anything that would improve state of these 2 things, I will support.

Also @Sovereign.1093 argument that the player population is lacking isnt towards reducing small group player interaction but rather increasing it would be better direction so that single players and small groups can flourish. Small guild andnew commanders are provided the environment to grow. You are right that manually ordering upgrades is not impactful enough change to fix the major issues within the system, but it would be step in the right direction, increasing the value of objectives and active scouting.

[Shining One.1635]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:That being said, I would rather that be a server/world thing where commanders on map give a participation spot and that person is both a scout and an upgrader.The problem is that many (possibly most at this point) servers don't have commanders on for the majority of the day.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I think a bigger problem is that it requires at the very least 20 people to even think about attacking a well defended structure, which is really a supply cost problem. assuming that 20 people have 300 supply, that's 4 rams or catas and 2 bubbles. I think the fact that acs can hit siege is bad design, since it makes those bubbles mandatory which makes another 7 people a requirement.

[starhunter.6015]

I agree, the upgrades should be manned, a Player should be the one to give the order for a place to upgrade.Player tells the NPC to upgrade when it is ready, guards lets say once at T3 begin to use up 10 supply every 10-15 mins . So a keep with no one making sure camps are secured will become drained and start to decay.

[XenesisII.1540]

Maybe y'all should just go around capping camps if you hate walls so much.

[XenesisII.1540]

Ok here's the serious post.

Removing automatic upgrades, lets face it, that should have been done 3 years ago during HoT, not years later with the population in trouble again. Also if you really want to remove the automatic upgrades then you need to reward those players doing the manual work of taking care of structures, more gold and xp for taking camps, walking yaks, defender, repairing walls events, or for enemies taking camps and killing yaks. You can also slow down the upgrades if you really wanted to, by taking the surrounding camp and killing the yaks, just the other day I saw bravost was t2 for 10 hours because umberglade kept flipping. The players you need for these jobs just aren't doing them for various other reasons.

The true role of havoc to delay upgrades and destroy supply from T3 objectives from repairs is long gone, it's not rewarding, and most times they wouldn't even have the support of a zerg to finish the job so what's the point? These are the players needed to counter the scouts and builders, but all you got now is a roamer going around flipping 3 camps every 10 mins. Bringing back manual upgrades isn't the only solution to bring back that play style, other things ruined it.

At the end of the day this is still an argument to make it easier to break into somewhere.

So here's the proposal.

1. Make all gates and walls T2 reinforced levels(stone) in strength at all times and never upgraded from that, but give them all the T3 metal appearance.
2. Then whenever there's an upgrade T2-T3 reinforced, it repairs the wall and gates instead, maybe even make the repairs only up to 50% from a completely broken wall or gate.
3. We could take it another step with SMC and leave it at T0 strength for gate and walls, the upgrades just repairs the walls and gates not upgrade them. But this may make it too much into a flippy place that people won't bother to defend but just reflip it.
4. All other upgrades should be there as usual, and there should be a reason to upgrade and maintain an objective, because despite the fact that players keep wanting to break down objectives defensively while wanting to walk in and claim it's prize, there still also needs to be a reason to give two kittens to defend it from you and not turn wvw into a massive ktrain. (which I see already happening with population dwinding and zergs jumping maps to just ppt and take stuff unopposed).

P.S My guild was formed as a dedicated scout/builder/defender/havoc years ago, HoT affected our roles, we ain't going back to that play style no matter how much you change with upgrades and defense.