Can we please talk about the "Marked" debuff?

UNOwen.7132 · September 20, 2019

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@UNOwen.7132 said:I dont, most of my experience was facing Deadeyes and being surprised at how awful all versions of it is. Then I tried it and confirmed my suspicions. There simply isnt any way to win 1v1s. You do a lot less damage, your survivability is a lot lower, your utility is a lot lower and you have nothing to make up for any of it. Its incapable of fighting any 1v1, even the usually easy Necros dont lose.

Ah, I see. You're just trolling. DE Rifle literally

hard-counters

all iterations of Necro.

Thief does. Deadeye, unfortunately, doesnt. The standard issue of "you do less damage and are less survivable" apply. All the Necro has to do is dodge your Deaths Judgment, while applying their choice of condi or power pressure. You dont even really do enough damage to kill a Necro through his survivability, so technically a necro could just dodge and be fine. Usually you might think "well, I have the range advantage", but thats only the case if you kneel. And kneeling is bad, since 300 units are quickly covered, and then youre a sitting duck. And thats really it.

Incorrect. DE hard-counters Necro. I

dare

you to go to the Necro forums and tell them that that DE does not.

I don't need to land Death's Judgement to win 1v1s. Nor should it land, it's the easiest attack to dodge in the game. It's great for using up enemy dodges however! If you'd like me to teach you how to play rifle DE, I may be able to set aside some time...

Then they must be AFK. Lets do some math. I am playing the glassiest, highest damage build possible. All-in on berserkers, Scholar rune, Critical Strikes, DE, Deadly Arts lineup. Literally the highest, possible damage. Now, lets assume the Necro is on, hm, Scourge, since thats the closest to beatable. Now, on a scourge, with the standard gear setup that a power scourge has, your highest damage skill, Skirmishers shot, hits for about 3k-3.5k. I note, this is the highest damage you can get. Since you wont be running Malificent seven (if you do, the Scourge snaps his fingers, and your boons become conditions you simply cant clear fast enough), you get 4 shots of skirmishers shot. 5 if you wait 3 seconds after the first one. You do, best case scenario, a total of 17.5k, plus another 1k from mug. The scourge meanwhile has 24k health baseline. Thats without doing anything.

In other words, after 3 seconds of non-stop attacking, hitting the necro hard as you can, with a full glass build, you barely get rid of 2/3 of their health. With the scourge just watching you. Now, lets say the scourge isnt just watching you, and instead is using his skills to survive. Now, we have 8k from Sand Flare, almost 5k in a barrier, and a little over 3k in healing. Suddenly, your 17.5k damage have turned into a measily 9.5k. Less than half the necros hp. Now the Necro well might have Spectral Armor, if he is expecting to fight you, thats another 33% less damage, so your 17.5k turns into about 12k, of which you lose 8k, so youre left, after a full 4 seconds of attacking, with having done 4/24k health in damage on the necro. And this entire thing was just the necro sitting there. Doing nothing but avoiding damage. No counterattack. And I havent even brought up the sand shade barrier.

Now, we have established that for Deadeye, an unfortunately very low damage class thanks to DJ being impossible to hit, simply doesnt have the damage to kill Necro. Not even remotely. What about Necro killing you? Hoo boy. See, there is this little skill called "Ghastly Claws". Its an axe skill that the current power scourge builds use. Its got a lengthy channel time of 1.75 seconds. Over the course of these 1.75 seconds, it does as much damage as 5 skirmishers shots. Thats right, the entirety of the initiative you dumped into your highest damage skill gets trumped by Necros Axe 2. And thats just one skill, Necro has an entire arsenal left to unleash.

So no, Deadeye does anything but hard-counter necro. Its helpless against any necro who can dodge Death's Judgment. Regular thief does counter Necro in WvW, mainly on account of doing actual damage. But deadeyes damage numbers are so pathetically low, its signature initiative skill worse than Rangers longbow attack, that it simply stands no chance whatsoever.

So yeah, either theyre hilariously undergeared, or you hit DJs. Otherwise you simply cant kill Necros, your damage isnt there.

Well, this explains why you think deadeye is bad, you're on a PvE build which is plain terrible but more importantly your tactics suck because you're too focussed on max DPS.

Firstly, I run SA trick DE for the boon steal on DJ so protection is a non issue. You have way more DJ attempts than a necro has dodges so eventually you will land it, no matter how good the necro is at dodging.

Secondly, M7 is more than viable because you shouldn't be in range of most boon corrupts. You have 1500 range on rifle, use it. If you're being hit by scourge corrupts that's your fault.

Thirdly, you don't use skirmisher's shot Vs necros, you sit at max range with spotter's shot for the immob. This forces them to use cooldowns to close the gap and avoid being killed hilariously because on my marauder build that hits for 4k a shot against anything not full trailblazer.

Fourthly, don't dump ini into barrier or shroud, this is just obvious. As soon as you see it pop, that's your cue to stealth and reposition.

Fifthly, use shadowstep aggressively to take advantage of their low mobility. You should be running multiple stunbreaks on any thief build these days, and shadowstep is a cleanse. So you spotter's shot from max range until they close to 900 range, dodge for stealth and port to their flank, spotter's shot for the immob and DJ before it hits (with quickness at 1200 range the DJ will land before the immob wears off), DPS til the close the gap, dodge and return shadowstep, cleansing 3 condis if you got hit on the second engage. Usually the necro is dead or all but dead by this point.

This is all ignoring the fact that if I run one shot and land the burst, the necro is dead before any of this can happen.

Deadeye Vs necro is like bird Vs potato, one of these things is never going to catch the other if played correctly. Seriously tho, most of the skills you reference have 900 range. That's entirely on you if you're getting hit by them.

No, Im focused on max DPS, because as you can imagine, if you do less damage then the Necro is even less likely to be killed.

Unfortunately, the Necro has more boons than just protection. Ones that are higher in the priority and as a result get stripped first. That is, if you ever hit a DJ, because unfortunately, dodges are not the only way Necro can stop those from hitting, so realistically, you wont hit a single DJ until well into the fight (when youre already dead).

You only have 1500 range if youre kneeling. Which is actively very bad and something you should never do. And even then, they can just walk up, youre a sitting duck while kneeling after all. And Necros best boon corrupt has 1200 range, so youre gonna be hit by it, no matter what.

You dont use spotters shot because its bad. Youre just doing less damage over the same amount of time, and the Necro is in no rush to get to you. Theyll just wait til your burned all your initiative, then walk up slowly and kill you. That is, if they dont just pop stability and walk through your spotters shot. Also, your Spotters shot will not do 4k. It will do 3k-3.5k, except on your build with SA, it will do less, so probably 2.5k-3k on a properly geared scourge.

They will use barrier while your shot is mid-air. You cant stop that, and each barrier only barely takes more than one shot.

They only have to close to 1200 range. Which is like a second of walking. Or a singular dodge. Your attempt at hitting the DJ obviously wont work since the DJ animation starts before the Immob hits, so they just dodge both (unless theyre really bad), the gap is already closed (Shadowstep has 1200 range, so you wont be able to get a port that isnt them already in range), so they will now be killing you. And even then, with this entire attempt, you will not have killed the necro. With your build, you will not even have gotten them to half health.

Nope, the cheesy oneshot build needs to hit glass cannons. It does about 14k damage against any non-toughness/damage reduction builds. Against Necro, it does about 8k, since its a toughness/damage reduction build. Thats 1/3 of their health, and now youre dead.

Its more like tank vs cloaked guy with a knife. Sure, the tank might not be able to stop the cloaked guy from running away, and only is able to kill them if they stay too close for too long. But the cloaked guy with a knife actually can never, ever kill the tank. Its a 1v1 that only has 2 possible outcomes: 1, the thief runs away. 2, the thief dies.

Well, I tried. Deadeye clearly isn't for you.

It has nothing to do with that. I still play Deadeye, mainly out of the fact that I cant be bothered to switch gear every time I go from PvE to WvW. But the problem is that its an actively horrible weaponset that entirely relies on bad enemies. Its in dire need of buffs, specifically as far as damage is concerned. Its a joke that Scourge can have far more sustain, be 4 times as tanky, and still out-DPS you with absolute ease. Scourge. A build that should be good at teamfights and bad at 1v1s.

Look, I've made it clear that I think DE/thief whatever, is completely hard done by when it comes to marked, marked really should be altered in some way to make things more even. But its not under powered. Its not under powered at all. It does counter necro. Maybe a reaper could burst down a DE if the DE makes an error, there was also one reaper build I fought a few times that runs the locust skill that blocks projecticles which was reaallly challenging to kill. But 90% of the time, the DE is going to beat most iterations of necro in most situations. Its ability to kite and stay out of range of the slow and low mobile necro makes the necro an easy target. DE does counter necro at the moment.

On the flip side, a Holosmith running tools should never lose to a DE. So if you want to talk about DE hardcounter start with holosmith+rifle+lockon.

But seriously, necro's are DE food. Just like DE's are holo food.

It is horribly underpowered. It doesnt counter necro. What you describe is that if the thief wants to run away, the necro wont be able to kill the thief. But if the thief wants to fight, the necro can kill the thief. The thief cannot kill the necro. Ive already described why with Deadeyes pathetic damage killing the necro is impossible, so lets go about the "kite and stay out of range" part. Specifically, the part where that doesnt work. You only have a range advantage if youre kneeling. Except, for one kneeling is terrible, but more importantly, you lose that range advantage quickly, since you cant move while attacking. You also dont have much mobility on Rifle, since you need initiative to do any damage, so youre restricted to just shadowstep, which is good burst movement, but bad continous movement.

So, in reality, what happens is that unless the DE uses its tools to run away, it tries to be out of range of necro and poke a little, the necro barely takes damage, walks up to the kneeling Thief, and marks him. Now the thief is slowed/feared/crippled, the necro can walk even closer, and kill him. While being at no risk to DE at all, since DEs damage, again, is far too low to kill the Necro (in fact, Im pretty sure that with the way the cooldowns are lined up, if you just avoid the Deaths Judgments, the necro wont ever die even if he doesnt fight back).

Well, I never have any trouble with necro's. All I need to do is engage them at range and keep them at bay with spotters shot to build malice. I feel my damage is more than adequate, as damage is off the rails with every build these days. I think you're far understating DE.

But we'll agree to disagree much like my disagreements with people who think marked is fine. Although it always seems to be on these forums that a build is brokenly overpowered and needs nerfing or brokenly under powered and needs buffing. DE is fine, it doesn't deserve nerfs before all the other crazy meta battle kitten out there, but it certainly doesn't need any buffs. Its just as broken as everything else.

EDIT: The only time anything that you've stated happens to me is when I'm marked. For the sake of this thread i'll agree that rifle DE is very underpowered when marked. To the point that a rifle DE should run run away whenever it wanders into marked, even against a necro. But unmarked DE is fine.

Then you must be running into glassy, undergeared and/or bad necros. Well, definitely bad ones seeing how spotters shot is somehow keeping them at bay. In a class that can just pop stability and walk up slowly. Good necros are literally unkillable. And no, Im not. Im evaluating it exactly correctly. Its a build that has no survivability or sustain, no damage, no anything. Longbow ranger using nothing but the autoattack is

better

. Thats how bad Deadeye is. Mind you, longbow ranger actually using skills isnt even considered that good. Deadeye is worse than an intentionally severely crippled version of that build.

To put it bluntly, Deadeye is so underpowered that it would require major buffs just to be on par with P/P thief. And thats not a build thats even good. Itd be fine, if Deaths Judgment wasnt impossible to hit, but against good players it is. And without DJ, which is pretty much all your damage, youre just nothing

If you are personally unable to perform well as a Rifle DE, it does not mean the profession/build is inherently weak. So far multiple Thief

mains

have disagreed with your assessment that DE is underpowered and requires "major buffs" and exactly zero people have agreed with you in that regard. Certainly nobody has agreed with you in regards to DE's

not

countering necros. This should be enough information for you to reflect upon and

just maybe

realize that you are not as good of a DE player as you think you may be.

Btw you have a MUCH better chance at killing a de as a core nec, instead of scourge. I main nec, and I have to admit that killing a de in wvw is one of the hardest things to do. Nigh impossible on some occasions. De hardcounters scourge, period, if the de is even halfgood.

Killing a DE is hard, yes. Since if you get close to, they just run away. But a DE killing a properly geared necro is literally impossible. DE does not hardcounter scourge in any way, shape or form, unless you consider "Not dying because its very good at running away" a hardcounter, at which point thief hardcounters everything (including thief, ironically).

I'm sort of curious, you are running a power DE? With rifle? Maybe you could link what build you're running and perhaps that may shed some light as to why you're struggling with necro's.

Im not "struggling with them", I merely avoid them because I know I cant kill them. Because I am playing the highest damage, glassiest build possible ,and my damage just isnt nearly enough (for the record, its full ascended berserkers, DA, CS, DE, Scholar Rune, standard damage food and utility, damage sigils. My Skirmishers shots, the highest damage skill in the arsenal, do 3k or less damage per hit to the 24k health scourge. And I die to just 3 hits from them. You could of course go a lot less glassy and more tanky, but then your skirmishers shots will hit for 2k or even less, and at that point Im pretty sure you get countered just by the scourge pressing the heal skill when its up).

That looks like a strong build but not a controlling one. I think if you pack a few things to tie up their mitigation they'd either die on your opener or maybe be pressured enough to try to reset instead of turning around to nuke you right away at least. Fortunately your core build looks like it should still have the same impact in tightly marked areas so don't write off that quick Death's Judgement, even if appears to be weak to you in the moment, it's at least staggering out your resource pools so you're not chewing up all of your Initiative although it's stronger with modifiers loaded up to Steal and Stealth Attacks and then followed by Skirmishers or whatever under Quickness. I think you wouldn't have to give up too much damage to fit in some quickness, boon steal, and some interrupts or control and then most of the fight could be in your opener and you'd probably rage for one shotting.

They

cant

die on the opener. Youre just a tiny bit of damage off even when you go "Skirmishers shot x4 -> Deaths Judgment" with the DJ hitting, and thats a total of 3 seconds of uninterupted combat. And of course, requires the DJ to hit. Which it wont. But here is the thing, even if I had quickness (would require to use haste, which means one defensive cooldown down, so thats not a good idea), even if I had interrupts (to be honest, I cant think of any that even are available. Binding Shadow has a long travel time, Scorpion Wire bugs out 90% of the time and the only good one is in Daredevil), it would not change anything. The Necro still does not get killed by you, and still kills you. Basically in order for you to be able to properly "oneshot" the necro (so lets say, just 3 skirmishers and immideate DJ), they would have to kitten up and you still would need around, I want to say 4000 power? Probably more.

The problem is, no matter what approach you take, the ultimate truth is that the necro does more than twice your damage, has more than 4 times as much survivability as you do, much better sustain, and better control and boon access. The only "advantage" you have is range. Except you only do when kneeling (which you dont because the kneel skills suck), and even then its just one dodge, and the advantage is nullified. The only way thief could ever win the fight is if they could attack outside of necros range while still being in range themselves for a couple minutes. You cant even maintain that advantage for 10 seconds.

When you only have one bullet, you wait for a clear shot. DJ can hit light armor classes for over 24k, the issue isn't the damage, the issue is that you cannot land DJ. I'm sorry, but the issue is you, not the build.

First of all, DJ can only hit

glassy

builds on light armor classes for over 24k. A properly geared power scourge takes about, lets see, 12k from a 7 malice DJ. If you use the 5 malice one because Malificent 7 kills you when they corrupt boons, its only about 9k-10k. Second, of course I cant land DJs against non-afk enemies. Theyre not afk. The skill is the most telegraphed skill in the game. They get a bright orange line, and the most obnoxious sound effect in the game. Both of those basically say "dodge RIGHT NOW". And of course, enemies who arent afk do just that. They dodge. And your Dj didnt land. And there is no way to set it up so that it will land other than the one scenario where deadeye does kill people somewhat well. Large-scale zergs where both effects get drowned out by the clutter. But then youre playing in large-scale zerg scenarios, hoping that your shot doesnt get bodyblocked, and still being less useful than a rev spamming hammer 2.

But yeah, its not an issue with me, because DJ landing or not isnt dependent on you, the player. Its dependent on the enemy. And I dont count enemies who actually manage to get hit by DJs as proper enemies. If they get killed by that, theyll get killed by Elementalists Churning Earth or hell, Warriors bloody killshot.

Ok, a few questions then.

Firstly, how does a necro with its limited defensive options get the 50% damage reduction required to turn my 24k DJ to a 12k DJ? For a guy so focussed on maths, you seem to be assuming a lot here.

Secondly, how is a necro that can maintain 50% damage reduction while also getting to 24k health going to have any chance to kill me before I have chance to get out of range? 6k health is equivalent to full marauders, and you have to mix toughness in there too. Bear in mind I run rending shade so protection gets stripped by my DJ, if they're getting that level of tank just from toughness that means either their direct damage will be abysmal and I can wear them down, or they're going to get hit a lot harder by a deadeye than you're making out. As a side point, 4k power is more than doable on deadeye, especially with full zerk.

Thirdly, how is a power tank necro going to kill me by corrupting boons? If they have enough damage reduction from just toughness to reduce my damage by half they must be running something much tankier than celestial, so they aren't going to have any condition damage. So again, where is their damage? It might be clearer if you post the necro build so it's clear what you're describing, as at the moment it sounds like the mythical unicorn uberstat forum build with 6 specialisations traited.

Fourthly, how many dodges do you think necros have? I'll play along with your damage numbers for the sake of argument and say that spotter's shot hits for 3k a hit, so the necro is going to have taken around 10-12k damage over four shots as I build malice (four shots to account for me possibly not critting on one shot). If they pop barrier I can stow weapon, stay out of their range and wait for it to expire, same for the poison field that blocks projectiles, so there's not much reason to assume I won't get this damage in. This means getting hit by a 12k DJ will either kill your 24k health necro outright or put it so close to death it cannot easily recover. I can fire off a death's judgement every 3 seconds when taking into account the self reveal, and it takes ten seconds to regain the endurance from one dodge assuming no bonus effects. Even adding energy sigils on both weapon sets, endurance food and the poison field corruption that blocks projectiles, the necro is going to run out of ways to avoid that DJ in the space of 20-30 seconds. When I get max malice I get my initiative refreshed by M7, so I can spend all my ini on death's retreat to stay out of the necro's reach and pepper it with DJ attempts until it hits. The mathematical and strategic advantage is actually with the deadeye, as the necro is consistently on the defensive, in range of a one shot and trying to close ground on a highly mobile target.

As a final point, I totally disagree with your assertion that whether DJ lands is dependant on the necro, and I will go further and say that this actually shows a critical lack of understanding on your part in how rogue classes function in a PvP environment. Thief in PvP is not about DPS, it's about burst, which means the key element of playing thief is whether or not you can outplay the other guy, baiting them into certain predictable actions or scenarios in order to create windows to land your burst. In my previous example I used the strategy of forcing the opponent to burn defensives very quickly to create a window where they have no defensive cooldowns ready, but you can do other things like timing shots for the end of dodges, attacking from stealth when they're preoccupied with something else, or using CC to create that window. If you can't understand how that works, then I'm sorry to be blunt but honestly, thief is not the class for you.

Mainly by using pieces of toughness gear, the food that reduces incoming damage, and the traits that reduce incoming damage. Of course they could also use spectral armour for protection, but at that point its just overkill.

Oh no, if you want to run away youre gonna run away. Obviously, the Scourge cant kill you if you dont stay. However, you cant kill the scourge. Whether they decide to stay or not. Its up to you whether you choose to die, or you choose ot live. Also unfortunately no, their direct damage wont be abysmal. Sure, their stats are lower. But their damage scalings are higher. You are stuck with skirmishers shot after all. Thats the crux of the problem, the fact that your numbers are just worse. Also 4k power isnt doable. Im assuming you just made an off-hand remark here without looking it up, but its extremely difficult just to break past 3000 power. You have to be full-ascended, full mighty infusions, highest power utility and food, and a full stack of bloodlust sigils. Oh and obviously, 25 stacks of might. Even then, the most I could get it to (with everything on high) is just shy of 3.8k. And thats with 25 stacks of might, which you wont be getting because you dont have a good source of might. Still, Im not sure 4k power would be enough either.

Oh it wont be the conditions that kill you. But you will have every single debilitating condition on you, and no way to clear all of them off. Youre gonna die, though not to the conditions themselves, but rather to the fact that you will be incredibly crippled while the necro can just go ham on you.

They will pop barrier as your shot is midair. Unless you want to predictively cancel your shot (which will not work and instead just mean you stop attacking while the scourge gets to keep his barrier skill up). So you wont get the 12k in actually. But sure. And sure, if the necro were to not fight back, youd eventually (probably) get a DJ in. Well, unless they LoS you, blind you, fear you, or do anything else that stops it, but I digress. But theyre gonna fight back. And youre not gonna be able to stay in that magical 300 radius line (its actually less because marks have a radius themselves but I digress) where you can hit them and they cant hit you. Especially not because if you try, they can just walk out of its range. You will have to compromise, and walk towards them. And then youre in kill range.

Its not with the Deadeye. The Scourge wont be in kill range at that point in the first place, and the way range works, helps them, not you. You have a very slim radius in which your range is higher than theirs. But you dont get to use that full range. The problem with the idea of staying out of someones range while being in your own range is that youre weak to them just walking away from you. Lets say youre at 1350 range. Just outside of the mark radius. If they walk away from you, its just under 3/4 of a second to no longer be in your range. Your DJ wont even hit in that time. If you want to be able to force them to burn dodges, you have to be closer. But then youre in range. There is a reason why the only class that was ever able to do the "outrange the ranged enemy" both didnt have to stand still for its attacks, and due to a quirk of their projectiles, actually had noticably longer than 1500 range.

Lets go through your "ideas". So we looked at your idea of forcing them to burn dodges, and why it doesnt work without placing you in harms way. Lets see. "Time it at the end of their dodge" they have no reason to dodge if youre not already using DJ. This obviously does not work. "Attacking them from stealth when theyre preoccupied" the only way that works is if theyre fighting an actually formidable foe. At which point, youre not 1v1ing exactly, are you? Youre +1ing. Which Deadeye does fine, I suppose, but youre really reliant on the actual 1v1er in that situation. Its also not the situation were talking about here. "Using CC to create that window" stunbreaks exist. Youre just telegraphing your already telegraphed attack even more. This does not work.

But look at that list, did you notice something? A lot of these are ideas that could, in theory, work. Hell, they do for the other classes. So what is the issue? The fact that only DJ does noticable damage. When you only have one attack the enemy dodges, most tricks dont work. Now, lets take a look at a class for whom these tricks do work. With holo, you can do things like timing the Overcharged Shot, or even Holographic shockwave to the end of the dodge. Because they need to dodge more than just those 2. You can setup CC for the attacks ,because they cant just save everything for your one attack. If Deadeyes damage outside of DJ wasnt so bad, that Rangers autoattack straight up does more (for now, the nerf actually would put it below DEs damage), maybe this could work. Alas, it is. So it does not.

Necro has damage reduction traits? Which are they?Secondly, you lose to a... Power scourge, of all builds? Absolutely no power scourge roam build is viable. I main necro, roam on scourge, and all builds i use are full trailblazer. You know scourge doesnt have unlimited lifeforce to keep popping barriers indefinitely, right? You also know a valid tactic against necro is to bait them into using their lifeforce, I hope.As i said, I use trailblazer. The only class i actively try to avoid is deadeye. Not ranger, not soulbeast, not warrior or holo, hell, I even fight mirage. I can deal with those in half of the cases. But deadeye, that is a duel which heavily favors deadeye.

Scourge Grandmaster Minor, Blood to Sand. Though, trait

s

was probably incorrect, I believe thats the only one they run.

Correct, its not a roam build. Its a Zerg build. The fact that DE loses to it makes it clear just how bad DE really is.

See, that makes no sense. Specifically, Ranger and Soulbeast. If (and this is only an if as we found out) DE were to counter Scourge, then Ranger and Soulbeast should be such an unbelievably hard counter that the very sight of them should terrify (heh) you. After all, they do way more damage than DE, have more range, can actually maintain that range advantage and take a lot less damage. Ranger is what DE wishes it was.

This is clearly a l2p issue. The fact that you lose to an blobscourge (a full zerk scourge) in a duel doesnt show scourge being OP, but your lack of skill. I mean virtually everyone told you that de wins against scourge except in a very few cases where scourge gets lucky or severely outskills the de. Against similarly skilled players, De wins handsdown. Unless you play deadeye in wvw the way you play it in pve. Or you troll.

And yet, the consensus among the DEs of my server is "yeah, you dont fight scourge on DE, they win". And youre right, it doesnt show scourge being op, its not. Its actually pretty bad in 1v1s. But DE is just worse. The thing with DE is that against similiarly skilled players, DE loses against

everything

. No matter what that everything is. DE cannot win against a scourge. Ive already shown that the damage numbers are highly in scourges favour (in the time you get them to maybe half health, they kill you) and that the only "advantage" DE could ever have, range, isnt an advantage they can use. DE if it wants to win 1v1s, needs to fight glassy builds from bad players. Otherwise, you just play DE in the only scenario its somewhat useful. As a small-scale skirmish build. Where you let your teammates actually pressure the enemy to burn their defenses so that DJ can hit. Essentially the classic +1 role.

Numbers show absolutely nothing. Honestly Its like saying "hey i stand still inside scourge bomb and i cant kill it faster than it will kill meh"Thats plainly a pve mentality, if anything. The consensus in thief and nec forums is that de wins againt scourge, period. Try posting a topic "deadeye always loses against scourge". Or wait, I will do it, cannot look forward to all replies.Out of curiosity, whats your server?

Numbers show

everything

. And no, its not like saying that. Its like saying "Scourges damage is instant, targetted and unavoidable, unlike yours. Its also much higher than yours. While the Scourge takes a lot less than you do". There is just no question about the fact that unless you can outrange consistently (which I have pointed out, you cant), the scourge is just better than you. And yeah, the Necro forum is infamous for highly underestimating their own class. I mean kitten, they thought Scourge in sPvP was fine before it was ever nerfed. And the thief forums, who even knows, thats like half shitposters after most people left. Consensus among actually good players however? Deadeye loses that fight, if it ever gets to that fight.

The community is ignorant, now? Maybe you are trolling, after all.Also, i am still waiting for a reply as to in which server youre in. Thanks!

If you mean "the necro community is known for underestimating their own class", thats not a "now" thing. Its been like that for years. You always hear "Necro dead this, necro dead that" even when necro is currently tearing up sPvP with extreme prejudice.

Youll wait a long time, I see no reason to give you that answer.

Jugglemonkey.8741 · September 20, 2019

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:Before assuming that I made an off the cuff remark, you might want to look at the numbers again. It's actually very easy to get more than 3000 power on deadeye, and 4000 power is very much doable on a spike. Here's a viable deadeye build that can easily do that under realistic 1v1 conditions;
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAQxjlNwwYbsOmJO8XnvKA-zVRYBBZIG1c5lSThQYJQbRQmFgrHgA2DvlqUwA-w
This build has 2907 power with food before might stacks, bloodlust and traits. Bloodlust gives 250 power, M7 gives 10 stacks of might when it procs so that's 300 power, bringing our total to 3457 power. Revealed training adds 200 power while revealed which doesn't show up in the build editor, and you'll be revealed when you use DJ. Assassin's signet gives a further 360 power when activated, for a grand total of 1110 extra power on a spike from might, bloodlust, traits and utilities. This brings the total to 4017 power on a spike, and that's in almost full marauder gear and only using 10 might stacks, which as I said is easily achievable. You'd actually be closer to 15 might stacks once you add might from thrill of the crime and the dodge food, but I think I've sufficiently made my point.
I personally don't consider the gear especially hard to get if someone plays any amount of WvW or PvE, never mind the 6k+ hours on thief that I have, the bulk of that being solo roaming. I also think the damage increase from reliably stripping protection with rending shade combined with the defensive buffs of SA are more valuable in the current meta than the damage buffs in DA, but both builds are very much viable and this build is roughly what I was running prior to the SA rework. The other build choices, like runes and armor, are just my personal preferences. I'm sure if you swapped the build I linked to full zerker scholar you'd do substantially more damage than what you claim to do in your posts.
I'll reiterate my point; necro has no sustain, only the ability to tank and limited damage mitigation. It cannot deal with a DJ attempt every 3s for a prolonged period of time once it has been weakened by the deadeye building malice, it cannot catch a DE if it chooses to stay at range, and once the DE wears down the necro's health the necro cannot escape because of that same mobility. I don't need to put myself in harm's way except to build malice; once that's done I can fire DJ from outside the necro's reach and immediately retreat out with death's judgement if they try to close the gap, dodge then repeat. Nothing you've said has shown any real evidence to refute this. Like I said, the issue is not the class, it's how you're playing the class.

Writ of Masterful Strength? I mean, sure, if you want your power to evaporate as soon as youre touched. I was looking at the standard build of, yknow, just using Sharpening Stone. Do you have to say, missed the infusions on the rings and accessories though.So take out the writ and go zerker or valk armor for the 4k power. My point still stands, you didn't do your research before making an assertion.Rending Shade works if you hit your DJ. Which you wont. And no, you wont. I tested it, the damage I say you do is quite literally the highest you can.Even so, 4(3000)+12000=24000. Assuming the necro heals, I still nearly kill it from building malice and landing one DJ even using your numbers. And I assure you I will land a DJ before 30s is up if I don't make a mistake.Scourge has a lot of sustain. It can in fact deal with a DJ attempt every 3 seconds. But lets analyze and look at why. So, there are 2 big issues with the idea.Ok, I'll deal with each point individually then.First, your idea of "I just fire DJ from outside the necros reach". So, I already said that this obviously does not work. At all. But let me explain why, using a term from another game I played. Zone control.Ignoring the fact that zone control is not sustain, go on.See, the problem with range advantages is that, unless your range advantage is massive, its pretty much impossible to maintain. Or in this case, even use. So, obviously you cant actually fire DJ from 1500 range. Because then one step backwards from the scourge, and its gonna miss completely. In fact, your real range limitation is actually considerably less than 1500. Its about 1350 specifically. Your lower bound however is also lower, because the necros reach extends beyond 1200 due to the marks radius. So, in reality, you cant actually stay outside the scourges reach and fire DJs. You have to get close, just to ensure that your valuable DJ attempt doesnt get cancelled by walking. And a good Scourge knows that. This is one part of the theory of zone control. And long story short, the scourge can just completely nullify your range advantage. As I said, only rangers can do it, but thats because they dont stand still and their range is higher than 1500 (I think its 1700?).I actually don't need the range advantage to be huge, because you're still thinking in terms of static targets. DJ is a 600 range port directly backwards, and necro's attack is 1200 (say 1350 as you say with staff marks). So that means I can attack with DJ from anywhere between 800 and 1500 range and comfortably get out of the necro's range with one use of deaths retreat.

So we've established that my effective range is anything greater than 800 range, which is well within the range of your skills. Let's look at the cast times of both the DE and the necro's skills to see if you will be able to hit me before I can get out of range. Since you're talking about zone control, let's look at necro staff, since it represents both strong AoE and your highest effective range as you pointed out earlier. I attack with death's judgement (0.5s) which reveals me as soon as I start casting, and use death's retreat (0.25s). Add latancy to the mix (0.1 seconds twice) and you have about a second for me to fire a DJ and port back out of your range, that's your window to hit me. Necro sees deadeye and realises it needs to dodge, reacts (0.2s, since I initiated the attack you have that disadvantage), latancy (0.1s) and dodge animation (0.75s according to the wiki), then counterattack (0.1s for latency, plus 0.75s cast time for any staff mark). That means 1.9s has passed by the time the necro has reacted and avoided the DJ and begun to attack. By this time I've already used deaths retreat and I'm no longer in range, furthermore, I only have to wait 0.3s or so before I can dodge (0.75s) and re-enter stealth as the dodge ends, or just use death's retreat again. This is assuming you are very fast at retargeting me after I pop out of stealth and that you use the AoE snap to target option etc.

In other words, if I react properly, you literally will not hit me because the maths says you can't react with an attack fast enough before I get out of range. The only way you'll hit me is if you instantly target me after I cast DJ, at which point you can't avoid the DJ and my original point that DJ will land is proven. That's your first point debunked.

The other problem, and this is the problem I notice you have skipped over is that your stealth is limited. You wont actually be able to go for DJs every 3 seconds for very long. 2 dodges, 2 melds, Hide in Shadows and your mark skill, and then youre just relying on regenerating dodges. And if you try to maintain range advantage allowing the scourge to just cancel your DJs by walking backwards, youll quickly find that you run out of these.Ok, I've already shown that the effective range I can fire a DJ from and be safe from your attacks is anything up to 800 units, so you're not going to move 700 units in the second (0.5s cast time plus flight time) it takes DJ to hit you unless you're burning spectral walk or the minion port to do it. So that's a none issue.

So, stealth uptime. You're correct, I have two dodges, two shadow melds. On my normal build I run withdraw over hide in shadows, so that's 4 sources of stealth. Now there's a couple more things for you to consider. Firstly, I run shadow arts, so I get a stealth on mark and a stealth on heal for free. that's 6 sources. Then there's the stolen item with 5+ malice, that's 7. I run adventurer runes, so I get another dodge back when I use my heal. That's 8. I also run smoke screen, the field lasts for 7 seconds so I can use it to stealth twice if I'm cheeky about it. That's 10 sources of stealth, which with the 3s self reveal on stealth attacks is the 30 seconds I told you you'd last in a previous post.

Now take into account I have permanent vigor from bountiful theft and M7 (yes, I'm the fabled SA trickery DE thief) and dodge regen food, bringing my dodge recharge time to about 5.5 seconds. So in the 30 seconds of stealthing I just did by spamming cooldowns, I got 5 and a half dodges worth of endurance back. That means we have 15 sources of stealth in that 30 second period.

But wait! There's more! Since we're considering a 30s time period, that means withdraw (18s cd), adventurer runes (20s cd), mark (17.75s cd) and the stolen item (17.75s cd) would have all been used and 3 of them would have come off cooldown in that time. That gives me 18 sources of stealth in a 30 second period and I won't count the energy sigil on rifle and energy gain from malicious tactical strike on sword because it's just gratuitous at this point. 18 stealth sources in 30 seconds means I have a stealth source available every 1.67 seconds on average, and I need one every 3 seconds to keep peppering the necro with DJ. There is absolutely no way that the necro has more ways of avoiding DJ than I have of setting it up, and I can maintain this DJ every 3s assault almost indefinitely. So that's your second point debunked.

In reality though, these fights go a little different. The DE and scourge clash, after about 10 seconds both realize they cant kill each other, and they just walk away.This might be what you do, but if you use a WvW build and not a PvE build (since you admitted you were too lazy to change in an earlier post), you have more than enough tools to take down the necro. It really is a L2P issue on your part.

UNOwen.7132 · September 20, 2019

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Before assuming that I made an off the cuff remark, you might want to look at the numbers again. It's actually very easy to get more than 3000 power on deadeye, and 4000 power is very much doable on a spike. Here's a viable deadeye build that can easily do that under realistic 1v1 conditions;
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAQxjlNwwYbsOmJO8XnvKA-zVRYBBZIG1c5lSThQYJQbRQmFgrHgA2DvlqUwA-w
This build has 2907 power with food before might stacks, bloodlust and traits. Bloodlust gives 250 power, M7 gives 10 stacks of might when it procs so that's 300 power, bringing our total to 3457 power. Revealed training adds 200 power while revealed which doesn't show up in the build editor, and you'll be revealed when you use DJ. Assassin's signet gives a further 360 power when activated, for a grand total of 1110 extra power on a spike from might, bloodlust, traits and utilities. This brings the total to 4017 power on a spike, and that's in almost full marauder gear and only using 10 might stacks, which as I said is easily achievable. You'd actually be closer to 15 might stacks once you add might from thrill of the crime and the dodge food, but I think I've sufficiently made my point.
I personally don't consider the gear especially hard to get if someone plays any amount of WvW or PvE, never mind the 6k+ hours on thief that I have, the bulk of that being solo roaming. I also think the damage increase from reliably stripping protection with rending shade combined with the defensive buffs of SA are more valuable in the current meta than the damage buffs in DA, but both builds are very much viable and this build is roughly what I was running prior to the SA rework. The other build choices, like runes and armor, are just my personal preferences. I'm sure if you swapped the build I linked to full zerker scholar you'd do substantially more damage than what you claim to do in your posts.
I'll reiterate my point; necro has no sustain, only the ability to tank and limited damage mitigation. It cannot deal with a DJ attempt every 3s for a prolonged period of time once it has been weakened by the deadeye building malice, it cannot catch a DE if it chooses to stay at range, and once the DE wears down the necro's health the necro cannot escape because of that same mobility. I don't need to put myself in harm's way except to build malice; once that's done I can fire DJ from outside the necro's reach and immediately retreat out with death's judgement if they try to close the gap, dodge then repeat. Nothing you've said has shown any real evidence to refute this. Like I said, the issue is not the class, it's how you're playing the class.

Writ of Masterful Strength? I mean, sure, if you want your power to evaporate as soon as youre touched. I was looking at the standard build of, yknow, just using Sharpening Stone. Do you have to say, missed the infusions on the rings and accessories though.So take out the writ and go zerker or valk armor for the 4k power. My point still stands, you didn't do your research before making an assertion.Rending Shade works if you hit your DJ. Which you wont. And no, you wont. I tested it, the damage I say you do is quite literally the highest you can.Even so, 4(3000)+12000=24000. Assuming the necro heals, I still nearly kill it from building malice and landing one DJ even using your numbers. And I assure you I will land a DJ before 30s is up if I don't make a mistake.Scourge has a lot of sustain. It can in fact deal with a DJ attempt every 3 seconds. But lets analyze and look at why. So, there are 2 big issues with the idea.Ok, I'll deal with each point individually then.First, your idea of "I just fire DJ from outside the necros reach". So, I already said that this obviously does not work. At all. But let me explain why, using a term from another game I played. Zone control.Ignoring the fact that zone control is not sustain, go on.See, the problem with range advantages is that, unless your range advantage is massive, its pretty much impossible to maintain. Or in this case, even use. So, obviously you cant actually fire DJ from 1500 range. Because then one step backwards from the scourge, and its gonna miss completely. In fact, your real range limitation is actually considerably less than 1500. Its about 1350 specifically. Your lower bound however is also lower, because the necros reach extends beyond 1200 due to the marks radius. So, in reality, you cant actually stay outside the scourges reach and fire DJs. You have to get close, just to ensure that your valuable DJ attempt doesnt get cancelled by walking. And a good Scourge knows that. This is one part of the theory of zone control. And long story short, the scourge can just completely nullify your range advantage. As I said, only rangers can do it, but thats because they dont stand still and their range is higher than 1500 (I think its 1700?).I actually don't need the range advantage to be huge, because you're still thinking in terms of static targets. DJ is a 600 range port directly backwards, and necro's attack is 1200 (say 1350 as you say with staff marks). So that means I can attack with DJ from anywhere between 800 and 1500 range and comfortably get out of the necro's range with one use of deaths retreat.

So we've established that my effective range is anything greater than 800 range, which is well within the range of your skills. Let's look at the cast times of both the DE and the necro's skills to see if you will be able to hit me before I can get out of range. Since you're talking about zone control, let's look at necro staff, since it represents both strong AoE and your highest effective range as you pointed out earlier. I attack with death's judgement (0.5s) which reveals me as soon as I start casting, and use death's retreat (0.25s). Add latancy to the mix (0.1 seconds twice) and you have about a second for me to fire a DJ and port back out of your range, that's your window to hit me. Necro sees deadeye and realises it needs to dodge, reacts (0.2s, since I initiated the attack you have that disadvantage), latancy (0.1s) and dodge animation (0.75s according to the wiki), then counterattack (0.1s for latency, plus 0.75s cast time for any staff mark). That means 1.9s has passed by the time the necro has reacted and avoided the DJ and begun to attack. By this time I've already used deaths retreat and I'm no longer in range, furthermore, I only have to wait 0.3s or so before I can dodge (0.75s) and re-enter stealth as the dodge ends, or just use death's retreat again. This is assuming you are very fast at retargeting me after I pop out of stealth and that you use the AoE snap to target option etc.

In other words, if I react properly, you literally will not hit me because the maths says you can't react with an attack fast enough before I get out of range. The only way you'll hit me is if you instantly target me after I cast DJ, at which point you can't avoid the DJ and my original point that DJ will land is proven. That's your first point debunked.

The other problem, and this is the problem I notice you have skipped over is that your stealth is limited. You wont actually be able to go for DJs every 3 seconds for very long. 2 dodges, 2 melds, Hide in Shadows and your mark skill, and then youre just relying on regenerating dodges. And if you try to maintain range advantage allowing the scourge to just cancel your DJs by walking backwards, youll quickly find that you run out of these.Ok, I've already shown that the effective range I can fire a DJ from and be safe from your attacks is anything up to 800 units, so you're not going to move 700 units in the second (0.5s cast time plus flight time) it takes DJ to hit you unless you're burning spectral walk or the minion port to do it. So that's a none issue.

So

, stealth uptime. You're correct, I have two dodges, two shadow melds. On my normal build I run withdraw over hide in shadows, so that's

4

sources of stealth. Now there's a couple more things for you to consider. Firstly, I run shadow arts, so I get a stealth on mark and a stealth on heal for free. that's

6

sources. Then there's the stolen item with 5+ malice, that's

7

. I run adventurer runes, so I get another dodge back when I use my heal. That's

8

. I also run smoke screen, the field lasts for 7 seconds so I can use it to stealth twice if I'm cheeky about it. That's

10

sources of stealth, which with the 3s self reveal on stealth attacks is the 30 seconds I told you you'd last in a previous post.

Now

take into account I have permanent vigor from bountiful theft and M7 (yes, I'm the fabled SA trickery DE thief) and dodge regen food, bringing my dodge recharge time to about 5.5 seconds. So in the 30 seconds of stealthing I just did by spamming cooldowns, I got 5 and a half dodges worth of endurance back. That means we have

15

sources of stealth in that 30 second period.

But wait! There's more!

Since we're considering a 30s time period, that means withdraw (18s cd), adventurer runes (20s cd), mark (17.75s cd) and the stolen item (17.75s cd) would have all been used and 3 of them would have come off cooldown in that time. That gives me

18

sources of stealth in a 30 second period and I won't count the energy sigil on rifle and energy gain from malicious tactical strike on sword because it's just gratuitous at this point.

18

stealth sources in 30 seconds means I have a stealth source available every 1.67 seconds on average, and I need one every 3 seconds to keep peppering the necro with DJ. There is absolutely no way that the necro has more ways of avoiding DJ than I have of setting it up, and I can maintain this DJ every 3s assault almost indefinitely. So that's your second point debunked.

In reality though, these fights go a little different. The DE and scourge clash, after about 10 seconds both realize they cant kill each other, and they just walk away.This might be what you do, but if you use a WvW build and not a PvE build (since you admitted you were too lazy to change in an earlier post), you have more than enough tools to take down the necro. It really is a L2P issue on your part.

Nah I did. I will concede though that I missed the infusions on the rings and accessories. Which barely pushes you within the 4k territory with full Zerkers, and max might/bloodlust. Which is really conditional, and probably still not enough.

Thats assuming they blocked 0 damage with their barrier. Which doesnt happen. In reality, you will be down another 6k or so from just their heal skill alone. And you wont. It has nothing to do with you making a mistake, and everything to do with the scourge not making one.

You are aware that neither DJ, nor DR are instant, right? If you try to do that, the Scourge can just attack you. Ignoring for a second that if you get that close, the scourge also has the option to stop your DJ by blinding, fearing or otherwise messing with you (which they can do more often than you can use your non-dodge skills to enable stealth), that also increases the delay between DJ attempts. If you need to have DR up, thats once every 5 seconds. Oh and if youre within 800 range, the necro wont use staff. Theyll use Axe/Focus or Axe/Dagger (whichever version theyre running, both are pretty popular). Now, since youre running malificent seven, whats gonna happen is that the necro uses corrupt boon, turning your fury into blindness causing the DJ to miss, and also crippling you severely all-around, then attacking you with whatever they have. Youre revealed for 3 seconds, and youre crippled, chilled, weakened, vulnerable and so on.

No, not quite. What this means is that you can react with Corrupt boon, then let that crippling condition load make it impossible for you to escape the incoming damage. And thats only if you react to the DJ, see thats the other issue. With thief, your stealth itself is telegraphed. I can see not only that youre about to stealth, but where you will be. I can react to your DJ before you cast it (especially since after dodge the amount of time you have is just too little). This means that if you try to do the DJ -> DR combo, I will simply use unholy feast, causing you to miss your attack, and wail on you. Or I will fear you before you complete the cast. Or I can just be nasty and start Ghastly Claws before you enter stealth, since stealth doesnt stop it, so youre just taking hella damage.

I have already debunked the 800 range thing, so were back to the original.

Wait, youre SA, Trickery, DE? How exactly do you intend to do damage? Remember, my 3k +12k calculation was full zerkers, DA, CS, DE. You lose out on a ton of damage multipliers and increases. Hell your crits wont even be as reliable, since youre missing out on keen observer. So, if were going by your build, were gonna have to figure out what the damage for you would be first (which is rather annoying because the formula is messy, but youre missing out on, lets see, 16.6666% from No Quarter, 10% from Ferocious Strikes, 14.66666 from practiced tolerance, 7% from Twin Fangs, 80-120 power from Revealed Training, and since youre using the adventurer rune, thats another 6.66666 from the ferocity, 5% from the effect, and that alone is like a total of 60% multipliers youre missing out on. And theyre multiplicative too. You get at best 15% from Lead Attacks, but thats basically No Quarter). Yeah the math is not gonna work out, so Im just gonna try it out on a targetting golem, we only need the % relation, not the exact numbers.

Alright, so, you basically do 66% of the damage the full damage build does, assuming youre in berserkers. Which means, instead of 3k per skirmishers and 12k per DJ, youre at 2k per skirmishers and 8k per DJ. So, one combo wont kill them, it will only do 16k damage. Which means you need to go 2 full combos to kill them. Except if they just use their healing skill, thats already 3 combos you need to go for. Sure, you get to stealth a whole lot more often, but you also need to hit a whole lot more often. At that point, the fact that you get to do DJ every 5 seconds (remember, limited by DR) really doesnt mean much because they have room for error.

So no, you failed to debunk either. Your idea of the range advantage fails because the Necro can just fight back and kill you both by using your boons against you before you can DR (while getting blind online so your DJ misses), and by preemptively attacking on your position, and because DR restricts you heavily. Your idea of stealthing more often requires you to take such a massive hit in damage, that the necro also has way more time to do stuff.

Jugglemonkey.8741 · September 20, 2019

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Before assuming that I made an off the cuff remark, you might want to look at the numbers again. It's actually very easy to get more than 3000 power on deadeye, and 4000 power is very much doable on a spike. Here's a viable deadeye build that can easily do that under realistic 1v1 conditions;
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAQxjlNwwYbsOmJO8XnvKA-zVRYBBZIG1c5lSThQYJQbRQmFgrHgA2DvlqUwA-w
This build has 2907 power with food before might stacks, bloodlust and traits. Bloodlust gives 250 power, M7 gives 10 stacks of might when it procs so that's 300 power, bringing our total to 3457 power. Revealed training adds 200 power while revealed which doesn't show up in the build editor, and you'll be revealed when you use DJ. Assassin's signet gives a further 360 power when activated, for a grand total of 1110 extra power on a spike from might, bloodlust, traits and utilities. This brings the total to 4017 power on a spike, and that's in almost full marauder gear and only using 10 might stacks, which as I said is easily achievable. You'd actually be closer to 15 might stacks once you add might from thrill of the crime and the dodge food, but I think I've sufficiently made my point.
I personally don't consider the gear especially hard to get if someone plays any amount of WvW or PvE, never mind the 6k+ hours on thief that I have, the bulk of that being solo roaming. I also think the damage increase from reliably stripping protection with rending shade combined with the defensive buffs of SA are more valuable in the current meta than the damage buffs in DA, but both builds are very much viable and this build is roughly what I was running prior to the SA rework. The other build choices, like runes and armor, are just my personal preferences. I'm sure if you swapped the build I linked to full zerker scholar you'd do substantially more damage than what you claim to do in your posts.
I'll reiterate my point; necro has no sustain, only the ability to tank and limited damage mitigation. It cannot deal with a DJ attempt every 3s for a prolonged period of time once it has been weakened by the deadeye building malice, it cannot catch a DE if it chooses to stay at range, and once the DE wears down the necro's health the necro cannot escape because of that same mobility. I don't need to put myself in harm's way except to build malice; once that's done I can fire DJ from outside the necro's reach and immediately retreat out with death's judgement if they try to close the gap, dodge then repeat. Nothing you've said has shown any real evidence to refute this. Like I said, the issue is not the class, it's how you're playing the class.