Next rip for necro - active of signet of undeath useless!?

[Anchoku.8142]

@XECOR.2814 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:I think people are missing something important here. This will be the first skill in the game with a direct health cost. We might be seeing proper health sacrifice coming in the future.

That said, reviving somebody at 1000 range with 1.5 second cast time is pretty strong. Even stronger when you realize that the Necro will be able to trait this to quite feasibly do it every 30 seconds (and on Core Necro, effectively drop the shroud degen to 1/3 what it normally is in the process). I can understand why ANet felt the need to put an additional cost onto the skill. Not saying it's the

correct

cost, but having one does make sense.

On paper it looks good. The reality is any sacrifice mechanic on skill will make the skill useless because necro has 0 resustain or mobility tp get their cooldowns back. Everything comes down to this in the end.

I am not sure about that. The cast time reduction is huge. The current skill's cast time is so long that every other resurrection technique is both faster and more reliable. Also, ground targeting tacks on additional time and effort to cast time. The AoE diameter was another reason for failure as it was not large enough to capture 3 targets outside of PvE.

The new version will still be a challenge with its ground targeting and substantial cast time but it will probably be more useful.

The large health sacrifice, though, is very Necro-like so the odds of that particular mechanism being used on other professions do not seem high to me.

I wonder how failures will be handled. Will a health shortage trigger Unholy Sanctuary? Will it fail to consume health if it fails to proc on a target?

One last question is whether it will be competitive with the revised res skills of other professions.

[Sarrs.4831]

Sure it's got a health cost now but it was so ridiculously hard to cast previously with the massive cast time, to the point of being basically unusable unless you were in stealth in rough engagements. The doubled passive is very promising as well; having Signet of Spite and Signet of Undeath active in Shroud from Signets of Suffering is not an unwelcome effect.

There's probably a weird signet build that just keeps regenerating somewhere in there. Full row of Signets (Vamp, Locust, Undeath, x), Signets of Suffering, Unholy Sanctuary and Shrouded Removal to turn Shroud time into healing time, Vital Persistence to improve everything Vamp Signet and Sanctuary are doing... Seems like it could get really silly.

@Anchoku.8142 said:I wonder how failures will be handled. Will a health shortage trigger Unholy Sanctuary? Will it fail to consume health if it fails to proc on a target?

I know that you can't cause yourself to 'die', so you can't cause Unholy Sanctuary to trigger.

[Funky.4861]

I love how we're discouraged to use the active of this skill when it flies in the face of the signet rework to make using the active more appealing. Also, it only resses 1 person- that's pathetic compared to every other res skill in the game, apart from mesmer's illusion of life, which is also never used because ppl are not aware that they have 15 secs to kill something or they're dead. It's a good thing this change won't affect me as i have never used this signet, nor do i intend to- it was terrible and niche in the past, and now it will be driven away even further. Looks like anet want to discourage ressing in pve also, where it's actually beneficial to keep people in the fight and not make them run back.

Edit: typo and formatting.

[misterman.1530]

The active effect might be fine in PVE but in WvW it will almost be impossible to fight, notice a server mate go down, target them, and use the active. Necros are heavily targeted in WvW and the time it would take to do that would mean the Necro is dead.

[misterman.1530]

@Sarrs.4831 said:Sure it's got a health cost now but it was so ridiculously hard to cast previously with the massive cast time, to the point of being basically unusable unless you were in stealth in rough engagements. The doubled passive is very promising as well; having Signet of Spite and Signet of Undeath active in Shroud from Signets of Suffering is not an unwelcome effect.

There's probably a weird signet build that just keeps regenerating somewhere in there. Full row of Signets (Vamp, Locust, Undeath, x), Signets of Suffering, Unholy Sanctuary and Shrouded Removal to turn Shroud time into healing time, Vital Persistence to improve everything Vamp Signet and Sanctuary are doing... Seems like it could get really silly.

@Anchoku.8142 said:I wonder how failures will be handled. Will a health shortage trigger Unholy Sanctuary? Will it fail to consume health if it fails to proc on a target?

I know that you can't cause yourself to 'die', so you can't cause Unholy Sanctuary to trigger.

You can't use it to cause yourself to die outright, no. But if you had a base health of 26,000 and you were down to 13,001 you could trigger it and be at 1 health. Yeah, you'd be effectively killing yourself. And what happens if, in the middle of the cast, your health drops to below the 1/2 way mark? Does it just not trigger at all and go into cooldown, or does it stay in the passive state? In 1.5 seconds, especially in WvW, a LOT could happen.

If Anet really wants to add yet another skill that damages the Necro, like they do on so many traits, then it should be 1/2 the health remaining. Or better yet, thematically anyways, it should cost Life Force, not Health.

[Sigmoid.7082]

People do realise this skill costs base health. I.e should cost 4606, the same as DS in LF , at level 80.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:People do realise this skill costs base health. I.e should cost 4606, the same as DS in LF , at level 80.

Until the change goes live or the devs correct us and give this specific number that you take for granted, it's better to expect the worst which is half the necromancer's health points.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:People do realise this skill costs

base

health. I.e should cost 4606, the same as DS in LF , at level 80.

Until the change goes live or the devs correct us and give this specific number that you take for granted, it's better to expect the worst which is half the necromancer's health points.

No it's not. Especially when it's used to bash and fear monger.

[KrHome.1920]

@"Sigmoid.7082" said:People do realise this skill costs base health. I.e should cost 4606, the same as DS in LF , at level 80.I am for 100% sure that base health for necro means 19k. So the sigil cast will cost about 9,5k health. And when you are below that you will either cancel the cast or kill yourself. And if you kill yourself: do you still resurrect your target? That would be quite funny - some "I sacrifice myself to rez the firebrand or battle standard warrior" thing.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@"Sigmoid.7082" said:People do realise this skill costs

base

health. I.e should cost 4606, the same as DS in LF , at level 80.I am for 100% sure that base health for necro means 19k. So the sigil cast will cost about 9,5k health. And when you are below that you will either cancel the cast or kill yourself. And if you kill yourself: do you still ressurrect your target? That would be quite funny - some "I sacrifice myself to rez the firebrand or banner warrior" thing.

Everyone forgets you have 1000vit on top of your classes base health. Look up the health in the wiki.

Base health =/= health gained from vit.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health

We have also already been told it's impossible to kill yourself with the signet. You can't cast the skills unless you have enough health to do so.

[ugrakarma.9416]

i already use this signet on my pvp build, with this buff i will become a monster.

[Nimon.7840]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:People do realise this skill costs

base

health. I.e should cost 4606, the same as DS in LF , at level 80.I am for 100% sure that base health for necro means 19k. So the sigil cast will cost about 9,5k health. And when you are below that you will either cancel the cast or kill yourself. And if you kill yourself: do you still ressurrect your target? That would be quite funny - some "I sacrifice myself to rez the firebrand or banner warrior" thing.

Everyone forgets you have 1000vit on top of your classes base health. Look up the health in the wiki.

Base health =/= health gained from vit.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health

We have also already been told it's impossible to kill yourself with the signet. You can't cast the skills unless you have enough health to do so.

Yeah, but it's base vit that every class gets.~4500 is possible, but I think as well, that it will be based on the 19k health.So even if you can block some of the dmg with barriers, it'll still be around 4-6k selfdmg on average, and also only if you're a scourge that can selfapply barrier, or if you have someone applying barrier on you.So even there it's pretty risky to cast the active

On core and reaper though, it's would be completely useless, as you don't have access to barrier.Unless you can cast signet, go in shroud, and signet finishes to cast and inflicts dmg on shroud. But that's pretty unlikely.

So active is trash on core and reaper, as necro doesn't have great ways to resustain itself. And still very risky on scourge

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:People do realise this skill costs

base

health. I.e should cost 4606, the same as DS in LF , at level 80.I am for 100% sure that base health for necro means 19k. So the sigil cast will cost about 9,5k health. And when you are below that you will either cancel the cast or kill yourself. And if you kill yourself: do you still ressurrect your target? That would be quite funny - some "I sacrifice myself to rez the firebrand or banner warrior" thing.

Everyone forgets you have 1000vit on top of your classes base health. Look up the health in the wiki.

Base health =/= health gained from vit.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health

We have also already been told it's impossible to kill yourself with the signet. You can't cast the skills unless you have enough health to do so.

Yeah, but it's base vit that every class gets.~4500 is possible, but I think as well, that it will be based on the 19k health.Your health is base health + base health from vitality. There are literally two tables on the page. Base health and health from vit. This, and Anet has mentioned scourge LF costs being based on base health, is why I am confident it's going to be 4606.

So even if you can block some of the dmg with barriers, it'll still be around 4-6k selfdmg on average, and also only if you're a scourge that can selfapply barrier, or if you have someone applying barrier on you.So even there it's pretty risky to cast the active

On core and reaper though, it's would be completely useless, as you don't have access to barrier.Unless you can cast signet, go in shroud, and signet finishes to cast and inflicts dmg on shroud. But that's pretty unlikely.

So active is trash on core and reaper, as necro doesn't have great ways to resustain itself. And still very risky on scourge

I actually think it's going to be best on core. Core gains the most from the change. It's just not going to be on conventional builds people think it should fit in.

[KrHome.1920]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:People do realise this skill costs

base

health. I.e should cost 4606, the same as DS in LF , at level 80.I am for 100% sure that base health for necro means 19k. So the sigil cast will cost about 9,5k health. And when you are below that you will either cancel the cast or kill yourself. And if you kill yourself: do you still ressurrect your target? That would be quite funny - some "I sacrifice myself to rez the firebrand or banner warrior" thing.

Everyone forgets you have 1000vit on top of your classes base health. Look up the health in the wiki.

Base health =/= health gained from vit.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health

We have also already been told it's impossible to kill yourself with the signet. You can't cast the skills unless you have enough health to do so.Oh yes great, on page 4 of the thread they clarified what should have been clarified on page 1:

Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

Base health according to the wiki:Base health - this increases at every level by different amounts depending on the profession.Health from Vitality - this increases with every even level by the same amount for every profession. 10 points of health are gained per point of Vitality.

We will see whether that 1000 vitality (which every class gets and so is baseline) is taken into account or not. If the signet costs only 4600 health that's easy to handle as this is less than a heal or in other words only 20% of your average 25k marauder/paladin or ~15% of your 29k carrion health pool. This is quite a strong skill then and I can see some potential even for the active.

[misterman.1530]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:People do realise this skill costs

base

health. I.e should cost 4606, the same as DS in LF , at level 80.I am for 100% sure that base health for necro means 19k. So the sigil cast will cost about 9,5k health. And when you are below that you will either cancel the cast or kill yourself. And if you kill yourself: do you still ressurrect your target? That would be quite funny - some "I sacrifice myself to rez the firebrand or banner warrior" thing.

Everyone forgets you have 1000vit on top of your classes base health. Look up the health in the wiki.

Base health =/= health gained from vit.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health

We have also already been told it's impossible to kill yourself with the signet. You can't cast the skills unless you have enough health to do so.Oh yes great, on page 4 of the thread they clarified what should have been clarified on page 1:

Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

Base health according to the wiki:

Base health - this increases at every level by different amounts depending on the profession.Health from Vitality - this increases with every even level by the same amount for every profession. 10 points of health are gained per point of Vitality.

We will see whether that 1000 vitality (which every class gets and so is baseline) is taken into account or not. If the signet costs only 4600 health that's easy to handle as this is less than a heal or in other words only 20% of your average 25k marauder/paladin or ~15% of your 29k carrion health pool. This is quite a strong skill then and I can see some potential even for the active.

But if you don't have the health to cast it, does it still give you the passive effect if it's grayed out? Also, who cares what the base health is? If your Necro is currently at 1/2 Base Health + 1, the Signet will be cast-able and you will be just as dead. So, I stab myself in the head and as I am clinging to life, someone pinches me to finish me off. Might not be "suicide" but it's certainly close enough to mean the same thing.

[KrHome.1920]

But if you don't have the health to cast it, does it still give you the passive effect if it's grayed out?The passive should always work when the signet is not on cooldown and even if it is on cooldown it should still work in shroud when the signet gm trait is picked.

Also, who cares what the base health is? If your Necro is currently at 1/2 Base Health + 1, the Signet will be cast-able and you will be just as dead. So, I stab myself in the head and as I am clinging to life, someone pinches me to finish me off. Might not be "suicide" but it's certainly close enough to mean the same thing.If you live in a worst case world, then yes, who cares!

[Anchoku.8142]

@misterman.1530 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:People do realise this skill costs

base

health. I.e should cost 4606, the same as DS in LF , at level 80.I am for 100% sure that base health for necro means 19k. So the sigil cast will cost about 9,5k health. And when you are below that you will either cancel the cast or kill yourself. And if you kill yourself: do you still ressurrect your target? That would be quite funny - some "I sacrifice myself to rez the firebrand or banner warrior" thing.

Everyone forgets you have 1000vit on top of your classes base health. Look up the health in the wiki.

Base health =/= health gained from vit.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health

We have also already been told it's impossible to kill yourself with the signet. You can't cast the skills unless you have enough health to do so.Oh yes great, on page 4 of the thread they clarified what should have been clarified on page 1:

Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

Base health according to the wiki:

Base health - this increases at every level by different amounts depending on the profession.Health from Vitality - this increases with every even level by the same amount for every profession. 10 points of health are gained per point of Vitality.

We will see whether that 1000 vitality (which every class gets and so is baseline) is taken into account or not. If the signet costs only 4600 health that's easy to handle as this is less than a heal or in other words only 20% of your average 25k marauder/paladin or ~15% of your 29k carrion health pool. This is quite a strong skill then and I can see some potential even for the active.

But if you don't have the health to cast it, does it still give you the passive effect if it's grayed out? Also, who cares what the base health is? If your Necro is currently at 1/2 Base Health + 1, the Signet will be cast-able and you will be just as dead. So, I stab myself in the head and as I am clinging to life, someone pinches me to finish me off. Might not be "suicide" but it's certainly close enough to mean the same thing.

It should continue generating LF.

Losing 4k health is a lot better than 10k but it still seems like an unnecessary sacrifice. In practice, we will be using it when not full health.

[LucianDK.8615]

Appears the signet of undeath changes did not make it live. Completely unchanged.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@LucianDK.8615 said:Appears the signet of undeath changes did not make it live. Completely unchanged.

None of the proposals there made it in. Looks like that was for a different patch in the future.

[Sugar Min.5834]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

..... I'm really wondering what was the thought process that led them to suddenly think that it would be interesting to look into revive and fall tools.

No thought process, just bottle spinning..

[KrHome.1920]

....and it costs 9606 health. :p

So much about base health being 9212 for necro...

It's 19212 (the 1000 base vitality is included into the base calculation).

[Dadnir.5038]

@KrHome.1920 said:....and it costs 9606 health. :p

So much about base health being 9212 for necro...

It's 19212 (the 1000 base vitality is included into the base calculation).

It's always better to be ready for the worst, else we don't have nice surprises, only disappointment. I guess Sigmoid is up for a round of disappointment.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@KrHome.1920 said:....and it costs 9606 health. :p

So much about base health being 9212 for necro...

It's 19212 (the 1000 base vitality is included into the base calculation).

Then I admit I was wrong and the active will never be used.

[Dadnir.5038]

Hey cheer up, SoU is now one of our highest hitting skill... Thought it hit us...

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Dadnir.5038 said:Hey cheer up, SoU is now one of our highest hitting skill... Thought it hit us...

Unless it's a bug or there are ways to mitigate the damage it's not going to see active use.

I get that's it's technically the one with the lowest cast time and cooldown (when traited) but it doesn't warrant the cost.

There is no way to use this in competitive modes without consigning yourself to death...