Holosmith has too little stability

Falan.1839 · December 26, 2019

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:
@Falan.1839 said:

Sorry, little one, but you need to learn how to kite, when to disengage, where and how to engage, you can't just yolo into point and expect broken class to carry you(holosmith need massive nerfs to either damage or sustain, or even better, both). There are classes without much access to stability and they're doing fine.

You can safely assume I am better at all those things then you will ever be in the next 100 years. Unlike 95% of the forum warriors here I've at played mAT finals and am regularly in p3/leg. Not claiming my record is impressive but at least I know how the gameplay looks at high level. The classes that do fine without stability usually have very high evade frame uptime and/or a lot of portengages and -disengages. Since Holo has neither, it always depended on high stability uptime for high counterpressure to stay alive.

Right now the class is doing relatively fine in ranked, unless you face a top level duo on two offensive builds like Sind/Trama constantly focusing you. However, that really doesnt mean much because the average match quality in Ranked has dropped so much that, as a good player, you can get away with pretty much any build as long as you have some game knowledge, know when to engage and disengage and which rotations to make. Otherwise you wouldn't regularly see Druids, FA weavers, Condi Revs, Core Guards and a bunch of other second rate builds in P2/P3.

In ATs however it has disappeared from high level, because with revs, thieves, oneshot mesmers, warrs and what not hardfocussing you in 2v1 or 3v1 there is just nothing that will keep you alive after Elixir S, with even Photon Wall being unreliable due to unblockables and port/stealthengages from the side/behind. Even Necro, which has similar issues, has always relied and relies on ports like Sand Swell, Flesh Worm or Spectral Walk to survive these situations.

I am fairly sure we won't see many engis from semifinal onwards on Saturday (unless some lfg teams gets insanely lucky matchups), and these nerfs are one of the reasons why. Not many high level players will argue otherwise, and those who do are usually on some selfish crusade against the class because they don't like it or play some of the few builds that still struggle with it.

Fueki.4753 · December 26, 2019

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@Fueki.4753 said:
@"Falan.1839" said:it's a bit of a weird policy to delete one spec completely from competitive play while "the big balance patch" is still months away and nobody knows what it will bring in the end.

Turning something from overpowered to reasonably viable isn't deleting it from competitive play.If you relied so hard on your stability, maybe you should train other ways of evasion, like stepping out of range, or not attacking when a warrior is using

~~Full~~

Counter.It's a

good

change that Holosmiths can't run in and ignore all CC anymore.

turning something from overpowered to reasonably viable is EXACTLY what deleting from competitive play means.Competitive players play the most broken builds. Why would you take fair build if you can take something thats overpowered?

Now Holosmiths have to rely on skill, which is what competitiveness should be all about.The problem aren't the nerfs to Yolosmith. The problem are the missing nerfs to other powercreep, like conditions, Barrier, CC, Stealth accessibility (and uptime) and Evade uptime.

TrollingDemigod.3041 · December 26, 2019

@"Falan.1839" said:You can safely assume I am better at all those things then you will ever be in the next 100 years. Unlike 95% of the forum warriors here I've at played mAT finals and am regularly in p3/leg. Not claiming my record is impressive but at least I know how the gameplay looks at high level. The classes that do fine without stability usually have very high evade frame uptime and/or a lot of portengages and -disengages. Since Holo has neither, it always depended on high stability uptime for high counterpressure to stay alive.
Right now the class is doing relatively fine in ranked, unless you face a top level duo on two offensive builds like Sind/Trama constantly focusing you. However, that really doesnt mean much because the average match quality in Ranked has dropped so much that, as a good player, you can get away with pretty much any build as long as you have some game knowledge, know when to engage and disengage and which rotations to make. Otherwise you wouldn't regularly see Druids, FA weavers, Condi Revs, Core Guards and a bunch of other second rate builds in P2/P3.
In ATs however it has disappeared from high level, because with revs, thieves, oneshot mesmers, warrs and what not hardfocussing you in 2v1 or 3v1 there is just nothing that will keep you alive after Elixir S, with even Photon Wall being unreliable due to unblockables and port/stealthengages from the side/behind. Even Necro, which has similar issues, has always relied and relies on ports like Sand Swell, Flesh Worm or Spectral Walk to survive these situations.
I am fairly sure we won't see many engis from semifinal onwards on Saturday (unless some lfg teams gets insanely lucky matchups), and these nerfs are one of the reasons why. Not many high level players will argue otherwise, and those who do are usually on some selfish crusade against the class because they don't like it or play some of the few builds that still struggle with it.

I don't really care about your imaginary skill level, if you think you're so good then you shouldn't have any kind of problem with current powercreep level, Holosmith like every other HoT and PoF spec is broken in either: damage, sustain, boons, mobility, condi application, immunity, stealth or whatever, it's one of the "selfcarryclass", so you being in P2+ means nothing since MU is about RNG most of the time (you either will get good team or you get screwed and have bronze as teammates) or you can play with your friend in the middle of the night to feel skilled and climb ladder.I regularly was in range of -Silver 1 to +Plat 2, depended on how much I didn't care about game and on RNGesus.Good thing it was removed from ATs then, one less powercreep spec out of rotation, but don't worry, it'll be replaced by some other kitten that need nerfs, like always.IMO, if you're being hardfocused by atleast 2 players, you should be dead sooner or later, you shouldn't have infinite reset/heal potential (no one should). Necro need to rely on these skills because (SuRpRiSe!): it doesn't have blocks(active), random evasion on skills, normal teleports like teefs/mesmer/eles, but in reality, this pack is still not enough in this powercreep circus. Rocket Boots, did you hear about these?I am fairly sure, that A LOT people has quit this game at this point because of kitten HoT and PoF powercreeped speces, so I don't really care if people will bandwagon to other "topkekmeta wahaha".How many of these "high level players" are left in this game though? Beside self-proclaimed ones and those that stayed 'cause there isn't better combat system on MMORPG market? How many have left this game already?It's not "selfish crusade" little one, some simply want a healthy gameplay without dealing with xyz kitten all the time.

P.S.: I honestly don't give a single kitten if you're better than me or not, but if you're coming on the forums and complain that xyz powercreep was reduced by practically nothing then think if it's truly "your skill" that brought you up to P2+. It's the same as people complaining that Rampage or Full Counter was nerfed just a tiny bit(overstacked abilities). I can't wait for the day when all of the long-distance mobility skills would get the same treatment as GW2s test subject Eles "Ride the Lightning"(double cooldown if it didn't hit a thing), the sky will crack open from tears how unfair it is.P.S.2: If you people want to prove how "good" or "skilled" you are, go and win ALL of your mATs by using teams made from ONLY core speces(no HoT and no PoF e-speces). Come on guys, I wanna see this experiment and it's results.

Axl.8924 · December 26, 2019

@Falan.1839 said:
@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:
@Falan.1839 said:

Sorry, little one, but you need to learn how to kite, when to disengage, where and how to engage, you can't just yolo into point and expect broken class to carry you(holosmith need massive nerfs to either damage or sustain, or even better, both). There are classes without much access to stability and they're doing fine.

You can safely assume I am better at all those things then you will ever be in the next 100 years. Unlike 95% of the forum warriors here I've at played mAT finals and am regularly in p3/leg. Not claiming my record is impressive but at least I know how the gameplay looks at high level. The classes that do fine without stability usually have very high evade frame uptime and/or a lot of portengages and -disengages. Since Holo has neither, it always depended on high stability uptime for high counterpressure to stay alive.

Right now the class is doing relatively fine in ranked, unless you face a top level duo on two offensive builds like Sind/Trama constantly focusing you. However, that really doesnt mean much because the average match quality in Ranked has dropped so much that, as a good player, you can get away with pretty much any build as long as you have some game knowledge, know when to engage and disengage and which rotations to make. Otherwise you wouldn't regularly see Druids, FA weavers, Condi Revs, Core Guards and a bunch of other second rate builds in P2/P3.

In ATs however it has disappeared from high level, because with revs, thieves, oneshot mesmers, warrs and what not hardfocussing you in 2v1 or 3v1 there is just nothing that will keep you alive after Elixir S, with even Photon Wall being unreliable due to unblockables and port/stealthengages from the side/behind. Even Necro, which has similar issues, has always relied and relies on ports like Sand Swell, Flesh Worm or Spectral Walk to survive these situations.

I am fairly sure we won't see many engis from semifinal onwards on Saturday (unless some lfg teams gets insanely lucky matchups), and these nerfs are one of the reasons why. Not many high level players will argue otherwise, and those who do are usually on some selfish crusade against the class because they don't like it or play some of the few builds that still struggle with it.

Trolling demigod is right though, necros don't have invulns aegis and limited mobility compared to holosmith who just jumps around shoots beam resets invis invuln runs back with superspeed comes back and engages over and over. How are you supposed to deal with that amount of power creep? What I gotta say is, sounds like you weren't as good as you say, and were dependant on that level of power creep.

Axl.8924 · December 26, 2019

@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Shao.7236 said:@Vagrant.7206
They're all 30+ seconds.
Engineer is designed to be full of key presses, that doesn't come off as a surprise when you can U then Toss B but not have one skill that does it all at once.

Umm... what? Your argument is that it is a class, just like everyone else? Yes, engineer can have multiple key presses. So can other classes. I am confused.

Also, trail of anguish and infusing terror have the same recharge time as toss elixir b. And again, no cast time. And no ground targeting. And no projectile. Even the 30s recharge skills don't have to put up with that.

@Shao.7236 said:All I'm seeing is people having lost what they took for granted on something that was fundamentally overperforming, it's time to adjust. I often play core Engineer and it's quite playable, so should Holosmith.

Sure thing bub

.

@Hederrain.9207 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:Also how does Holosmith not beat One Shot Core Mesmer?
One shot core mesmer is a build that is extremely glassy, only a couple of hard mitigation abilities, and it's survivability comes from maximizing stealth uptime, and holosmith still farts out reveal without even trying.@Vagrant.7206rifle elixir holo should always beat one shot core mes. its not a question if the holo is glassy or not. engi's just got too much utility if played by ppl that can react to sounds and dodge a giant etheral greatsword flying their way.

also ive never had toss elixir B destroyed by projectile hate and i got 3k hours on engi alone.

Guess you never played during the HoT days, or against an ele with a

focus

. I've seen my tossed elixirs destroyed many, many times.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Shao.7236 said:
@Vagrant.7206That never happened in my entire GW2 lifespan so, you really have to try and make it happen.

It's happened to me many times, especially during HoT days. You must not have played core engi in PvP much.

Hell, I lost a Toss Elixir U the other day to a reaper who ran at me with

Death's Charge

. I started to cast the skill when he initiated the charge, and it went "poof"! Exactly that noise.

@Shao.7236 said:Also saying that 4 seconds is nothing, have you know that most skills in this game that grant stability do no more than that, which means it's in line with the majority of the content that gives stability depending on their effects and application.

Firebrand spits out stability like nobody's business. That's one of their biggest balance issues, honestly. Core guard has a
shout
for 6s.

Firebrand only "kitten" out stability on their 85 second cd tome, and on Mantra (but then they don't have Renewed Focus). No core guard will ever run Stand Your Ground!.

Dolyak's signet grants
8 seconds
.

No Warrior will ever run Dolyak's Signet

Dolyak stance
grants 6 seconds.

I'll give you this one, sure.

Armor of earth
grants 6 seconds.

kitten stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

Trail of Anguish
grants 6 seconds.
Infusing Terror
grants 6 seconds.

Maybe we should not complain about Necro stab uptime?

Classic internet argument: "These skills aren't meta right now, therefore they aren't relevant."

Elixir B isn't meta either, but I guess that's where this argument is going. Toss Elixir B is the only core engi skill with reasonable stability uptime, and I'm pointing out that

it's pretty trash.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Maybe we should not complain about Necro stab uptime?

Why not? It's pretty comparable to Engineer stab uptime.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Holosmith has had close to permanent stability for so long that you people have gotten used to being completely and utterly immune to any form of Hard CC. I'm still rolling core guard, which has 5 seconds of stab on F3. That's it, but learning how to look out for animations and knowing what matchups to take and which not to is part of what made the game interesting back in core and even in HoT. People are so used to blindly rushing in spamming their rotation and anything that moves nowadays rather than play reactively. The fact that holo has a disgusting amount of hard hitting, hard CCs, insane re-sustain potential that wasn't touched, they should not also be able to out-trade other cc-heavy classes without thinking.

What are you even talking about? The closest holo had to "permanent stability" was when PoF launched, back when scourge was so stupidly powerful it corrupted everything. There's never been a point where engineer didn't have to worry about CC.

@Shao.7236 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Hederrain.9207 said:
@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Holo shouldn't even have any stab to begin with, so good ridance.

yea holo should be free kill and ping pong ball, nothing in the game dosnt have stability (maybe except for thieves) but holo deserves to have none?seems biased to me .core engi as a whole have poor acces to stab besides toss elixir b and juggernaut gm trait. nerfing elixir U this hard was a bad choice on anets side but it is what it is.

OP:holo is fine. slot elixir b and u get all the stab u need. sure u lack a block but kiting goes a long way. i dont feel different after nerfs. play safe, thats about it

Actually, thief does have stab blinding powder from deception, consume plasma detonate plasma, and blinding powder is decently accessible

1 second of Stability on stunbreak should be a rule of thumb for all skills tbh, it's a healthy way to discourage CC spam and give people a chance to reply with something.

I definitely agree with this. A lot of the problem with stunbreaks for engineer is that they don't provide any kind of defense against a follow-up CC. I've found

Rumble

to be more useful than

Superspeed

for this reason, despite the fact that it's on a 40s cooldown instead of 25s.

Its generally not fair to pick on necro, because we have weak mobility for the most part and everyone zooms around us.

Also keep in mind that scourge got hit with a big mechanical nerf that crippled scourge regarding shades, so not only do they not have a damage eating shroud, but they have to choose between giving you a barrier or saving themselves.

Scourge did deserve a nerf, all pof specs do, but core necro is very slow and really easy to farm, and reaper is still pretty slow but has access to stab more easily available than scourge, but they also are super slow and everyone hits too hard so they need that cc and the stab they got to have a fair chance.

Vagrant.7206 · December 27, 2019

@Axl.8924 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Shao.7236 said:@Vagrant.7206
They're all 30+ seconds.
Engineer is designed to be full of key presses, that doesn't come off as a surprise when you can U then Toss B but not have one skill that does it all at once.

Umm... what? Your argument is that it is a class, just like everyone else? Yes, engineer can have multiple key presses. So can other classes. I am confused.

Also, trail of anguish and infusing terror have the same recharge time as toss elixir b. And again, no cast time. And no ground targeting. And no projectile. Even the 30s recharge skills don't have to put up with that.

@Shao.7236 said:All I'm seeing is people having lost what they took for granted on something that was fundamentally overperforming, it's time to adjust. I often play core Engineer and it's quite playable, so should Holosmith.

Sure thing bub

.

@Hederrain.9207 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:Also how does Holosmith not beat One Shot Core Mesmer?
One shot core mesmer is a build that is extremely glassy, only a couple of hard mitigation abilities, and it's survivability comes from maximizing stealth uptime, and holosmith still farts out reveal without even trying.@Vagrant.7206rifle elixir holo should always beat one shot core mes. its not a question if the holo is glassy or not. engi's just got too much utility if played by ppl that can react to sounds and dodge a giant etheral greatsword flying their way.

also ive never had toss elixir B destroyed by projectile hate and i got 3k hours on engi alone.

Guess you never played during the HoT days, or against an ele with a

focus

. I've seen my tossed elixirs destroyed many, many times.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Shao.7236 said:
@Vagrant.7206That never happened in my entire GW2 lifespan so, you really have to try and make it happen.

It's happened to me many times, especially during HoT days. You must not have played core engi in PvP much.

Hell, I lost a Toss Elixir U the other day to a reaper who ran at me with

Death's Charge

. I started to cast the skill when he initiated the charge, and it went "poof"! Exactly that noise.

@Shao.7236 said:Also saying that 4 seconds is nothing, have you know that most skills in this game that grant stability do no more than that, which means it's in line with the majority of the content that gives stability depending on their effects and application.

Firebrand spits out stability like nobody's business. That's one of their biggest balance issues, honestly. Core guard has a
shout
for 6s.

Firebrand only "kitten" out stability on their 85 second cd tome, and on Mantra (but then they don't have Renewed Focus). No core guard will ever run Stand Your Ground!.

Dolyak's signet grants
8 seconds
.

No Warrior will ever run Dolyak's Signet

Dolyak stance
grants 6 seconds.

I'll give you this one, sure.

Armor of earth
grants 6 seconds.

kitten stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

Trail of Anguish
grants 6 seconds.
Infusing Terror
grants 6 seconds.

Maybe we should not complain about Necro stab uptime?

Classic internet argument: "These skills aren't meta right now, therefore they aren't relevant."

Elixir B isn't meta either, but I guess that's where this argument is going. Toss Elixir B is the only core engi skill with reasonable stability uptime, and I'm pointing out that

it's pretty trash.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Maybe we should not complain about Necro stab uptime?

Why not? It's pretty comparable to Engineer stab uptime.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Holosmith has had close to permanent stability for so long that you people have gotten used to being completely and utterly immune to any form of Hard CC. I'm still rolling core guard, which has 5 seconds of stab on F3. That's it, but learning how to look out for animations and knowing what matchups to take and which not to is part of what made the game interesting back in core and even in HoT. People are so used to blindly rushing in spamming their rotation and anything that moves nowadays rather than play reactively. The fact that holo has a disgusting amount of hard hitting, hard CCs, insane re-sustain potential that wasn't touched, they should not also be able to out-trade other cc-heavy classes without thinking.

What are you even talking about? The closest holo had to "permanent stability" was when PoF launched, back when scourge was so stupidly powerful it corrupted everything. There's never been a point where engineer didn't have to worry about CC.

@Shao.7236 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Hederrain.9207 said:
@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Holo shouldn't even have any stab to begin with, so good ridance.

yea holo should be free kill and ping pong ball, nothing in the game dosnt have stability (maybe except for thieves) but holo deserves to have none?seems biased to me .core engi as a whole have poor acces to stab besides toss elixir b and juggernaut gm trait. nerfing elixir U this hard was a bad choice on anets side but it is what it is.

OP:holo is fine. slot elixir b and u get all the stab u need. sure u lack a block but kiting goes a long way. i dont feel different after nerfs. play safe, thats about it

Actually, thief does have stab blinding powder from deception, consume plasma detonate plasma, and blinding powder is decently accessible

1 second of Stability on stunbreak should be a rule of thumb for all skills tbh, it's a healthy way to discourage CC spam and give people a chance to reply with something.

I definitely agree with this. A lot of the problem with stunbreaks for engineer is that they don't provide any kind of defense against a follow-up CC. I've found

Rumble

to be more useful than

Superspeed

for this reason, despite the fact that it's on a 40s cooldown instead of 25s.

Its generally not fair to pick on necro, because we have weak mobility for the most part and everyone zooms around us.

Also keep in mind that scourge got hit with a big mechanical nerf that crippled scourge regarding shades, so not only do they not have a damage eating shroud, but they have to choose between giving you a barrier or saving themselves.

Scourge did deserve a nerf, all pof specs do, but core necro is very slow and really easy to farm, and reaper is still pretty slow but has access to stab more easily available than scourge, but they also are super slow and everyone hits too hard so they need that cc and the stab they got to have a fair chance.

I'm not saying necro stability and speed are the envies of other classes, because they clearly aren't.

My point though is that necro does have some defenses that engineer (and holo) doesn't have. Z-axis teleports and return teleports are major defenses you can find in several necro builds, things which engineer has never had. Engineer also lacks the evade frames and sheer mobility of warrior and ranger in its main weapons, the two other classes that lack z-axis teleports.

In other words, engineer is one of the slowest classes without z-axis teleports. It lacks evade frames in all of its skills. It has only one core stealth skill (which everyone complains about), and access to anything beyond 3s of superspeed for mobility (from toss elixir U) requires specializing for it. Its core design was victory through attrition, but getting ping-ponged in fights without stability makes that nearly impossible. A single revenant or firebrand can easily knock you around for more stunbreaks than you have. If you miss a dodge, you end up getting stunlocked by these classes/specs.

Curennos.9307 · December 27, 2019

Let's be honest, anet - as usual - listened to player complaints and then played a game of telephone to decide what to nerf/buff. All the reasonable suggestions went in one ear, and then the last guy misheard everything and sprouted off what we're getting now.

Anet could have messed with heat therapy, tuned damage a little bit, or one of the many other holosmith specific changes people suggested and NOT screwed with stability access. But meh.

On another note - I won't claim to be an uber holo/engi expert, but I gave it the usual playtime so I could know how to counter stuff, and it seems like a big part of engi (and to an extent, holosmith's? Or maybe just mostly holosmith's) defense was the ability to NOT be CC'ed that allowed them to apply counter pressure. So you could definitely hit them and hit them hard, but it was difficult to do so safely. The issue was that not only was it hard to hit them safely, but when you did they could easily sustain through it via heat therapy and that one GM trait that vented heat into a heal, compounding photon's forge's strength and the heat therapy issues.

And now holo still has its weird sustain tools via easy vigor access, and quickness access still causing its usual problems, but its counterpressure is screwed.

Anet is treating holo's stability like it should have treated quickness.

Axl.8924 · December 27, 2019

@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Shao.7236 said:@Vagrant.7206
They're all 30+ seconds.
Engineer is designed to be full of key presses, that doesn't come off as a surprise when you can U then Toss B but not have one skill that does it all at once.

Umm... what? Your argument is that it is a class, just like everyone else? Yes, engineer can have multiple key presses. So can other classes. I am confused.

Also, trail of anguish and infusing terror have the same recharge time as toss elixir b. And again, no cast time. And no ground targeting. And no projectile. Even the 30s recharge skills don't have to put up with that.

@Shao.7236 said:All I'm seeing is people having lost what they took for granted on something that was fundamentally overperforming, it's time to adjust. I often play core Engineer and it's quite playable, so should Holosmith.

Sure thing bub

.

@Hederrain.9207 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:Also how does Holosmith not beat One Shot Core Mesmer?
One shot core mesmer is a build that is extremely glassy, only a couple of hard mitigation abilities, and it's survivability comes from maximizing stealth uptime, and holosmith still farts out reveal without even trying.@Vagrant.7206rifle elixir holo should always beat one shot core mes. its not a question if the holo is glassy or not. engi's just got too much utility if played by ppl that can react to sounds and dodge a giant etheral greatsword flying their way.

also ive never had toss elixir B destroyed by projectile hate and i got 3k hours on engi alone.

Guess you never played during the HoT days, or against an ele with a

focus

. I've seen my tossed elixirs destroyed many, many times.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Shao.7236 said:
@Vagrant.7206That never happened in my entire GW2 lifespan so, you really have to try and make it happen.

It's happened to me many times, especially during HoT days. You must not have played core engi in PvP much.

Hell, I lost a Toss Elixir U the other day to a reaper who ran at me with

Death's Charge

. I started to cast the skill when he initiated the charge, and it went "poof"! Exactly that noise.

@Shao.7236 said:Also saying that 4 seconds is nothing, have you know that most skills in this game that grant stability do no more than that, which means it's in line with the majority of the content that gives stability depending on their effects and application.

Firebrand spits out stability like nobody's business. That's one of their biggest balance issues, honestly. Core guard has a
shout
for 6s.

Firebrand only "kitten" out stability on their 85 second cd tome, and on Mantra (but then they don't have Renewed Focus). No core guard will ever run Stand Your Ground!.

Dolyak's signet grants
8 seconds
.

No Warrior will ever run Dolyak's Signet

Dolyak stance
grants 6 seconds.

I'll give you this one, sure.

Armor of earth
grants 6 seconds.

kitten stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

Trail of Anguish
grants 6 seconds.
Infusing Terror
grants 6 seconds.

Maybe we should not complain about Necro stab uptime?

Classic internet argument: "These skills aren't meta right now, therefore they aren't relevant."

Elixir B isn't meta either, but I guess that's where this argument is going. Toss Elixir B is the only core engi skill with reasonable stability uptime, and I'm pointing out that

it's pretty trash.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Maybe we should not complain about Necro stab uptime?

Why not? It's pretty comparable to Engineer stab uptime.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Holosmith has had close to permanent stability for so long that you people have gotten used to being completely and utterly immune to any form of Hard CC. I'm still rolling core guard, which has 5 seconds of stab on F3. That's it, but learning how to look out for animations and knowing what matchups to take and which not to is part of what made the game interesting back in core and even in HoT. People are so used to blindly rushing in spamming their rotation and anything that moves nowadays rather than play reactively. The fact that holo has a disgusting amount of hard hitting, hard CCs, insane re-sustain potential that wasn't touched, they should not also be able to out-trade other cc-heavy classes without thinking.

What are you even talking about? The closest holo had to "permanent stability" was when PoF launched, back when scourge was so stupidly powerful it corrupted everything. There's never been a point where engineer didn't have to worry about CC.

@Shao.7236 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Hederrain.9207 said:
@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Holo shouldn't even have any stab to begin with, so good ridance.

yea holo should be free kill and ping pong ball, nothing in the game dosnt have stability (maybe except for thieves) but holo deserves to have none?seems biased to me .core engi as a whole have poor acces to stab besides toss elixir b and juggernaut gm trait. nerfing elixir U this hard was a bad choice on anets side but it is what it is.

OP:holo is fine. slot elixir b and u get all the stab u need. sure u lack a block but kiting goes a long way. i dont feel different after nerfs. play safe, thats about it

Actually, thief does have stab blinding powder from deception, consume plasma detonate plasma, and blinding powder is decently accessible

1 second of Stability on stunbreak should be a rule of thumb for all skills tbh, it's a healthy way to discourage CC spam and give people a chance to reply with something.

I definitely agree with this. A lot of the problem with stunbreaks for engineer is that they don't provide any kind of defense against a follow-up CC. I've found

Rumble

to be more useful than

Superspeed

for this reason, despite the fact that it's on a 40s cooldown instead of 25s.

Its generally not fair to pick on necro, because we have weak mobility for the most part and everyone zooms around us.

Also keep in mind that scourge got hit with a big mechanical nerf that crippled scourge regarding shades, so not only do they not have a damage eating shroud, but they have to choose between giving you a barrier or saving themselves.

Scourge did deserve a nerf, all pof specs do, but core necro is very slow and really easy to farm, and reaper is still pretty slow but has access to stab more easily available than scourge, but they also are super slow and everyone hits too hard so they need that cc and the stab they got to have a fair chance.

I'm not saying necro stability and speed are the envies of other classes, because they clearly aren't.

My point though is that necro does have some defenses that engineer (and holo) doesn't have. Z-axis teleports and return teleports are major defenses you can find in several necro builds, things which engineer has never had. Engineer also lacks the evade frames and sheer mobility of warrior and ranger in its main weapons, the two other classes that lack z-axis teleports.

In other words, engineer is one of the slowest classes without z-axis teleports. It lacks evade frames in all of its skills. It has only one core stealth skill (which everyone complains about), and access to anything beyond 3s of superspeed for mobility (from toss elixir U) requires specializing for it. Its core design was victory through attrition, but getting ping-ponged in fights without stability makes that nearly impossible. A single revenant or firebrand can easily knock you around for more stunbreaks than you have. If you miss a dodge, you end up getting stunlocked by these classes/specs.

Yeah and you have invis and invuln combined with stealth on holo and also good damage plus buffs like prot.

All the pof classes and some hot classes need nerfed, because there is too much of everything atm too many ports evades invuln invis combined with mobility increasing abilities and then on top of that also having huge damage, and holo was contributing.

Having as much sustain as you guys did was crazy.

Hederrain.9207 · December 27, 2019

@Axl.8924 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:In other words, engineer is one of the slowest classes without z-axis teleports. It lacks evade frames in all of its skills. It has only one core stealth skill (which everyone complains about), and access to anything beyond 3s of superspeed for mobility (from toss elixir U) requires specializing for it. Its core design was victory through attrition, but getting ping-ponged in fights without stability makes that nearly impossible. A single revenant or firebrand can easily knock you around for more stunbreaks than you have. If you miss a dodge, you end up getting stunlocked by these classes/specs.

Yeah and you have invis and invuln combined with stealth on holo and also good damage plus buffs like prot.

All the pof classes and some hot classes need nerfed, because there is too much of everything atm too many ports evades invuln invis combined with mobility increasing abilities and then on top of that also having huge damage, and holo was contributing.

Having as much sustain as you guys did was crazy.

well vagrant is actually right there, the lack of ports and evade justifies engineers acces to stealth and invuln as it has it now. if u nerf those things after the stab nerf u might aswell delete the spec since holo wont have a chance to disengage . we dont have pulsing aegis or blocks. part of the sustain comes from cc'ing the other guy so he dosnt hit us back. thats why we have this high healing .also we dont have any meaningfull protection uptime unless we go protection holo and then we dont do enough dmg to be a threat to anyone. so that point is mute.the playstyle is literally , jump in, get some dmg and cc down, hopefully do it correct and get some kills, if not stealth up and get the fck away b4 we get canned and repeat the process.another thing id like to point out is holo cc, its telegraphed big time, holo 5 is a joke from what is was before so ppl complaining about holo's acces to cc should play the class themselves and try to land that shit against anyone thats competent

Axl.8924 · December 27, 2019

@Hederrain.9207 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:In other words, engineer is one of the slowest classes without z-axis teleports. It lacks evade frames in all of its skills. It has only one core stealth skill (which everyone complains about), and access to anything beyond 3s of superspeed for mobility (from toss elixir U) requires specializing for it. Its core design was victory through attrition, but getting ping-ponged in fights without stability makes that nearly impossible. A single revenant or firebrand can easily knock you around for more stunbreaks than you have. If you miss a dodge, you end up getting stunlocked by these classes/specs.

Yeah and you have invis and invuln combined with stealth on holo and also good damage plus buffs like prot.

All the pof classes and some hot classes need nerfed, because there is too much of everything atm too many ports evades invuln invis combined with mobility increasing abilities and then on top of that also having huge damage, and holo was contributing.

Having as much sustain as you guys did was crazy.

well vagrant is actually right there, the lack of ports and evade justifies engineers acces to stealth and invuln as it has it now. if u nerf those things after the stab nerf u might aswell delete the spec since holo wont have a chance to disengage . we dont have pulsing aegis or blocks. part of the sustain comes from cc'ing the other guy so he dosnt hit us back. thats why we have this high healing .also we dont have any meaningfull protection uptime unless we go protection holo and then we dont do enough dmg to be a threat to anyone. so that point is mute.the playstyle is literally , jump in, get some dmg and cc down, hopefully do it correct and get some kills, if not stealth up and get the kitten away b4 we get canned and repeat the process.another thing id like to point out is holo cc, its telegraphed big time, holo 5 is a joke from what is was before so ppl complaining about holo's acces to cc should play the class themselves and try to land that kitten against anyone thats competent

Thing is, there are going to be nerfs of cc and damage, so i would wait if i was you, but i will admit i don't know engi because i never played, but i did fight holo, so i can't really speak about it.

They might see something that helps engi survive if its a true problem, but it was needed.

Mirage, scourge, holosmith, Deadeye, Weaver, Firebrand, Soulbeast and Spellbreaker created issues, and ANET needed to nerf them.

What will be their roles in the future? i don't know.

Hederrain.9207 · December 27, 2019

@Axl.8924 said:Thing is, there are going to be nerfs of cc and damage, so i would wait if i was you, but i will admit i don't know engi because i never played, but i did fight holo, so i can't really speak abou
They might see something that helps engi survive if its a true problem, but it was needed.
Mirage, scourge, holosmith, Deadeye, Weaver, Firebrand, Soulbeast and Spellbreaker created issues, and ANET needed to nerf them.
What will be their roles in the future? i don't know.

yea im not saying nerfs werent needed, and im happy with the nerfs holo got , somewhat too with the elixir nerfs since now we need to play smart to be succesfull. which feel awesome now when its pulled off in teamfights. i think its good that we lost the ability to be in teamfights without a worry and now we need to seek fb out for stab , the nerf created more teamplay from holo side instead of having everything yourself.i think of it kinda like core guard or reaper. go in drop some dmg, then act accordingly since we cant just sit around on point for long periods of time without backup.

the nerf to elixir U affected core and scrapper badly too tho and reduced diversity but the skill was powercrept too so its justified nerf none the less.im looking forward to the big balance patch, they say they will look at ALL skills so one could hope they would finally rework kits and turrets which engi badly needs.

Despond.2174 · December 27, 2019

Holo is still absurdly OP, the ease of it's burst and sustain. They have nothing to worry about at this point in time.

Halikus.1406 · December 27, 2019

Too little stability.... Now this is how you end the year with a good laugh and btw Necro and Power shiro mains would like a word with you dude.

Admit that you were being carried by the broken build and move on, many ppl were. Like me for instance who decided to play condi mirage for a season to see how far I could get and easily got into top 100 when I've never played mesmer seriously before. Mesmer used to be a skillful class until that stupid rework + mirage came to be, I used to admire top mesmer mains before, still do to some good players out there but not nearly as much.

It's the same with holo, pof specs actually, they have access to way too many tools. Tools that shouldn't exist in the class before the elite specs are now introduced by it making it's previosly obvious weakness / weak point inexistent. Power shiro survives without a single sliver of stab while having to manage cd + resources, they have a good amount of evade on skills that's true but they don't have invuls or stealths to save their sorry ***** when they screw up, same thing with necro without blocks, stealth, invuls and little access to stab since.... forever? LoL

TL:DR Welcome back to earth I hope you enjoyed your time on c9 (aka OP builds heaven)Edit: Typos

Vagrant.7206 · December 28, 2019

@Axl.8924 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Shao.7236 said:@Vagrant.7206
They're all 30+ seconds.
Engineer is designed to be full of key presses, that doesn't come off as a surprise when you can U then Toss B but not have one skill that does it all at once.

Umm... what? Your argument is that it is a class, just like everyone else? Yes, engineer can have multiple key presses. So can other classes. I am confused.

Also, trail of anguish and infusing terror have the same recharge time as toss elixir b. And again, no cast time. And no ground targeting. And no projectile. Even the 30s recharge skills don't have to put up with that.

@Shao.7236 said:All I'm seeing is people having lost what they took for granted on something that was fundamentally overperforming, it's time to adjust. I often play core Engineer and it's quite playable, so should Holosmith.

Sure thing bub

.

@Hederrain.9207 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:Also how does Holosmith not beat One Shot Core Mesmer?
One shot core mesmer is a build that is extremely glassy, only a couple of hard mitigation abilities, and it's survivability comes from maximizing stealth uptime, and holosmith still farts out reveal without even trying.@Vagrant.7206rifle elixir holo should always beat one shot core mes. its not a question if the holo is glassy or not. engi's just got too much utility if played by ppl that can react to sounds and dodge a giant etheral greatsword flying their way.

also ive never had toss elixir B destroyed by projectile hate and i got 3k hours on engi alone.

Guess you never played during the HoT days, or against an ele with a

focus

. I've seen my tossed elixirs destroyed many, many times.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Shao.7236 said:
@Vagrant.7206That never happened in my entire GW2 lifespan so, you really have to try and make it happen.

It's happened to me many times, especially during HoT days. You must not have played core engi in PvP much.

Hell, I lost a Toss Elixir U the other day to a reaper who ran at me with

Death's Charge

. I started to cast the skill when he initiated the charge, and it went "poof"! Exactly that noise.

@Shao.7236 said:Also saying that 4 seconds is nothing, have you know that most skills in this game that grant stability do no more than that, which means it's in line with the majority of the content that gives stability depending on their effects and application.

Firebrand spits out stability like nobody's business. That's one of their biggest balance issues, honestly. Core guard has a
shout
for 6s.

Firebrand only "kitten" out stability on their 85 second cd tome, and on Mantra (but then they don't have Renewed Focus). No core guard will ever run Stand Your Ground!.

Dolyak's signet grants
8 seconds
.

No Warrior will ever run Dolyak's Signet

Dolyak stance
grants 6 seconds.

I'll give you this one, sure.

Armor of earth
grants 6 seconds.

kitten stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

Trail of Anguish
grants 6 seconds.
Infusing Terror
grants 6 seconds.

Maybe we should not complain about Necro stab uptime?

Classic internet argument: "These skills aren't meta right now, therefore they aren't relevant."

Elixir B isn't meta either, but I guess that's where this argument is going. Toss Elixir B is the only core engi skill with reasonable stability uptime, and I'm pointing out that

it's pretty trash.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Maybe we should not complain about Necro stab uptime?

Why not? It's pretty comparable to Engineer stab uptime.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Holosmith has had close to permanent stability for so long that you people have gotten used to being completely and utterly immune to any form of Hard CC. I'm still rolling core guard, which has 5 seconds of stab on F3. That's it, but learning how to look out for animations and knowing what matchups to take and which not to is part of what made the game interesting back in core and even in HoT. People are so used to blindly rushing in spamming their rotation and anything that moves nowadays rather than play reactively. The fact that holo has a disgusting amount of hard hitting, hard CCs, insane re-sustain potential that wasn't touched, they should not also be able to out-trade other cc-heavy classes without thinking.

What are you even talking about? The closest holo had to "permanent stability" was when PoF launched, back when scourge was so stupidly powerful it corrupted everything. There's never been a point where engineer didn't have to worry about CC.

@Shao.7236 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Hederrain.9207 said:
@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Holo shouldn't even have any stab to begin with, so good ridance.

yea holo should be free kill and ping pong ball, nothing in the game dosnt have stability (maybe except for thieves) but holo deserves to have none?seems biased to me .core engi as a whole have poor acces to stab besides toss elixir b and juggernaut gm trait. nerfing elixir U this hard was a bad choice on anets side but it is what it is.

OP:holo is fine. slot elixir b and u get all the stab u need. sure u lack a block but kiting goes a long way. i dont feel different after nerfs. play safe, thats about it

Actually, thief does have stab blinding powder from deception, consume plasma detonate plasma, and blinding powder is decently accessible

1 second of Stability on stunbreak should be a rule of thumb for all skills tbh, it's a healthy way to discourage CC spam and give people a chance to reply with something.

I definitely agree with this. A lot of the problem with stunbreaks for engineer is that they don't provide any kind of defense against a follow-up CC. I've found

Rumble

to be more useful than

Superspeed

for this reason, despite the fact that it's on a 40s cooldown instead of 25s.

Its generally not fair to pick on necro, because we have weak mobility for the most part and everyone zooms around us.

Also keep in mind that scourge got hit with a big mechanical nerf that crippled scourge regarding shades, so not only do they not have a damage eating shroud, but they have to choose between giving you a barrier or saving themselves.

Scourge did deserve a nerf, all pof specs do, but core necro is very slow and really easy to farm, and reaper is still pretty slow but has access to stab more easily available than scourge, but they also are super slow and everyone hits too hard so they need that cc and the stab they got to have a fair chance.

I'm not saying necro stability and speed are the envies of other classes, because they clearly aren't.

My point though is that necro does have some defenses that engineer (and holo) doesn't have. Z-axis teleports and return teleports are major defenses you can find in several necro builds, things which engineer has never had. Engineer also lacks the evade frames and sheer mobility of warrior and ranger in its main weapons, the two other classes that lack z-axis teleports.

In other words, engineer is one of the slowest classes without z-axis teleports. It lacks evade frames in all of its skills. It has only one core stealth skill (which everyone complains about), and access to anything beyond 3s of superspeed for mobility (from toss elixir U) requires specializing for it. Its core design was victory through attrition, but getting ping-ponged in fights without stability makes that nearly impossible. A single revenant or firebrand can easily knock you around for more stunbreaks than you have. If you miss a dodge, you end up getting stunlocked by these classes/specs.

Yeah and you have invis and invuln combined with stealth on holo

All the pof classes and some hot classes need nerfed, because there is too much of everything atm too many ports evades invuln invis combined with mobility increasing abilities and then on top of that also having huge damage, and holo was contributing.

Stealth and invuln on holo... you mean Elixir S? A core engi skill that's been in the game since the beginning? The only real change it's seen since HoT is a reduction in cooldown on toss elixir s.

That's literally the opposite of powercreep. The skill has barely changed.

@Axl.8924 said:and also good damage plus buffs like prot.
Having as much sustain as you guys did was crazy.

Yes, the sustain was over the top. This is why I recommended reductions on heat therapy. The problem wasn't core engineer, it was holo, specifically.

But now holo, and core engineer by extension, are getting ping-ponged in 1v1s because they lack stability. That's what happens when you nerf the core to hurt the e-spec.

@Halikus.1406 said:Too little stability.... Now this is how you end the year with a good laugh and btw Necro and Power shiro mains would like a word with you dude.
Admit that you were being carried by the broken build and move on, many ppl were. Like me for instance who decided to play condi mirage for a season to see how far I could get and easily got into top 100 when I've never played mesmer seriously before. Mesmer used to be a skillful class until that stupid rework + mirage came to be, I used to admire top mesmer mains before, still do to some good players out there but not nearly as much.
It's the same with holo, pof specs actually, they have access to way too many tools. Tools that shouldn't exist in the class before the elite specs are now introduced by it making it's previosly obvious weakness / weak point inexistent. Power shiro survives without a single sliver of stab while having to manage cd + resources, they have a good amount of evade on skills that's true but they don't have invuls or stealths to save their sorry ***** when they screw up, same thing with necro without blocks, stealth, invuls and little access to stab since.... forever? LoL

You literally just made my previous point stand:

I Said:My point though is that necro does have some defenses that engineer (and holo) doesn't have. Z-axis teleports and return teleports are major defenses you can find in several necro builds, things which engineer has never had. Engineer also lacks the evade frames and sheer mobility of warrior and ranger in its main weapons, the two other classes that lack z-axis teleports.
In other words, engineer is one of the slowest classes without z-axis teleports. It lacks evade frames in all of its skills. It has only one core stealth skill (which everyone complains about), and access to anything beyond 3s of superspeed for mobility (from toss elixir U) requires specializing for it. Its core design was victory through attrition, but getting ping-ponged in fights without stability makes that nearly impossible. A single revenant or firebrand can easily knock you around for more stunbreaks than you have. If you miss a dodge, you end up getting stunlocked by these classes/specs.

XenoSpyro.1780 · December 28, 2019

@Vagrant.7206 said:Try using Toss Elixir B with all the projectile destruction and reflects that fly around.I'm pretty sure they fixed this with all toss skills at the beginning of the month.

Axl.8924 · December 28, 2019

@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Shao.7236 said:@Vagrant.7206
They're all 30+ seconds.
Engineer is designed to be full of key presses, that doesn't come off as a surprise when you can U then Toss B but not have one skill that does it all at once.

Umm... what? Your argument is that it is a class, just like everyone else? Yes, engineer can have multiple key presses. So can other classes. I am confused.

Also, trail of anguish and infusing terror have the same recharge time as toss elixir b. And again, no cast time. And no ground targeting. And no projectile. Even the 30s recharge skills don't have to put up with that.

@Shao.7236 said:All I'm seeing is people having lost what they took for granted on something that was fundamentally overperforming, it's time to adjust. I often play core Engineer and it's quite playable, so should Holosmith.

Sure thing bub

.

@Hederrain.9207 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:Also how does Holosmith not beat One Shot Core Mesmer?
One shot core mesmer is a build that is extremely glassy, only a couple of hard mitigation abilities, and it's survivability comes from maximizing stealth uptime, and holosmith still farts out reveal without even trying.@Vagrant.7206rifle elixir holo should always beat one shot core mes. its not a question if the holo is glassy or not. engi's just got too much utility if played by ppl that can react to sounds and dodge a giant etheral greatsword flying their way.

also ive never had toss elixir B destroyed by projectile hate and i got 3k hours on engi alone.

Guess you never played during the HoT days, or against an ele with a

focus

. I've seen my tossed elixirs destroyed many, many times.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:
@Vagrant.7206 said:
@Shao.7236 said:
@Vagrant.7206That never happened in my entire GW2 lifespan so, you really have to try and make it happen.

It's happened to me many times, especially during HoT days. You must not have played core engi in PvP much.

Hell, I lost a Toss Elixir U the other day to a reaper who ran at me with

Death's Charge

. I started to cast the skill when he initiated the charge, and it went "poof"! Exactly that noise.

@Shao.7236 said:Also saying that 4 seconds is nothing, have you know that most skills in this game that grant stability do no more than that, which means it's in line with the majority of the content that gives stability depending on their effects and application.

Firebrand spits out stability like nobody's business. That's one of their biggest balance issues, honestly. Core guard has a
shout
for 6s.