Preview Balance patch -Thief

[babazhook.6805]

Quite frankly just as with every pre-announced patch previous, I am at the stage where I am not much interested in playing the game until this patch rolled out. It not because I do not like the game anymore, it because when I KNOW this patch incoming it feels like I am playing a beta. I just want the thing rolled out ASAP so we can start experimenting.

Now I do not think my Condition builds will change a lot. It the power ones I am more interested in and that might need significant changes in the build and or in tactics. I think more people might consider the CS line coupled with one of DA or DE and forgo the more defensive oriented lines.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@babazhook.6805 said:Quite frankly just as with every pre-announced patch previous, I am at the stage where I am not much interested in playing the game until this patch rolled out. It not because I do not like the game anymore, it because when I KNOW this patch incoming it feels like I am playing a beta. I just want the thing rolled out ASAP so we can start experimenting.

Same haha. That's the buildcrafter in you tho, there's no point working on a build that might not exist in a few day's time.

@kash.9213 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The way I forsee this rolling out is that the traits or builds that grant more INI will be even more important. One is going to have to maximize their INI and with less damage overall the best way to do that is to focus on damage skills. The difference between using one skill 3 times before running out of INI and a skill 2 times is huge.

Using The skills that provide CC or some other type of utility will be counterproductive as there no sense stunning or immobilizing someone as example if it only means you no longer have the INI left for a followup damaging attack.

As such Trickery DE and to a lesser extent SA will all be desirable. The number of different skills or utilities used in a given build is going to drop. There will be more complaints that all Thief does is "press one button"

I like Trickery and SA with DE and DrD in WvW at least, probably sucks anywhere else, and I also build to float around to cover people in different type of fights. After awhile you get your timing down on everything and are comfortable using fewer sources of stealth which opens up some choices, but that's right now. I already have to put some thought into those stats and modifier thresholds to have the hitting power and be able to bounce when I need to but I also have to pack for control and sapping in this mode, and I probably will post patch as well as health is just filling when mitigation is ripped or they're probably not hitting me very hard either.

I can see people packing their kit with more burst and multi use Initiative/burst; break stun; etc utility instead though for a more reliable pace and I'm not sure after those changes if I'd stick with traits like Merciful Ambush, Burst of Agility, or Premeditation if those don't scale or shape into the changes somehow and I might even have to think about Shadows Rejuv if Rending Shade isn't still the opportunity maker but we'll have to get our hands on that patch to feel all that out. I'm sure at launch some predictions will be off and some spot on and people will dig into new mechanics and figure new stuff out but there might be a few stealth missiles out there for a minute although they'd have to stay engaged to keep their kill rate up if their not likely to quick burst or oneshot either.

I get rocked by some core thieves of various kits now and probably still will after but those builds might get more funneled.

Building for ini regen and boonrip with SA trick DE was already good, it'd be kinda funny if it ended up meta after people constantly having a go at it.

[saerni.2584]

@Cal Cohen.2358

Why is duration rather than damage being nerfed on Potent Poison? The overall PvP notes suggested a desire to work on less stacks-more duration as a model for ramping damage. Yet this change seems to go in the opposite direction. You keep the 20% damage boost with almost no duration.

I’d suggest:

Potent Poison (SPVP):

Increased poison duration. Poison deals increased damage. Other Deadly Arts traits apply additional poison stacks.

• Damage Increase: 10%
• Duration Increase: 33%
• Additional Poison Stacks: 1

Duration rewards counterplay and gives a chance for ramping damage over time. Basically, what I’m suggesting is unsplit the duration increase and nerf the damage bonus.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@saerni.2584 said:@Cal Cohen.2358

Why is duration rather than damage being nerfed on Potent Poison? The overall PvP notes suggested a desire to work on less stacks-more duration as a model for ramping damage. Yet this change seems to go in the opposite direction. You keep the 20% damage boost with almost no duration.

The way it looks, it seems it is part of the goal of discouraging extended stealth time. Right now, you can stack poison and hide in stealth watching the numbers tick. With the change, you are forced to get out of steath to reapply poison.

So instead of nerfing stealth they simply made it counter-productive to stay in stealth and the idea that you do no damage while in stealth will be felt.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@babazhook.6805 said:Now I do not think my Condition builds will change a lot. It the power ones I am more interested in and that might need significant changes in the build and or in tactics. I think more people might consider the CS line coupled with one of DA or DE and forgo the more defensive oriented lines.

Doubtful. CS is lacking so much utility and base damage lowered to the point where focusing entirely on amplifying it will probably just not be worthwhile. Even substantial damage modifiers on not a lot of damage will still probably be not a lot of damage... especially so if the other professions move to their more sustain-oriented builds and traitlines with such drastic reductions in damage across the board.

It might be viable on like shortbow/rifle DE, but I think I'd still probably favor SA+Acro on most builds in most circumstances, especially into the likely-emerging condi dominance.

[babazhook.6805]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Now I do not think my Condition builds will change a lot. It the power ones I am more interested in and that might need significant changes in the build and or in tactics. I think more people might consider the CS line coupled with one of DA or DE and forgo the more defensive oriented lines.

Doubtful. CS is lacking so much utility and base damage lowered to the point where focusing entirely on amplifying it will probably just not be worthwhile. Even substantial damage modifiers on not a lot of damage will still probably be not a lot of damage... especially so if the other professions move to their more sustain-oriented builds and traitlines with such drastic reductions in damage across the board.

It might be viable on like shortbow/rifle DE, but I think I'd still probably favor SA+Acro on most builds in most circumstances, especially into the likely-emerging condi dominance.

Well if we talking WvW I am not sure one will need to trait more condition cleanses than already exist. The AMOUNT of conditions applied by a single player is not changing and if anything will drop. If you can deal with Condition builds with your current build , I see no reason for more cleanses or means of mitigation. At the same time if you face a condition build that is running Dire, I think you better served getting damage higher.

Now my Daredevil build that uses EA is pretty resistant to Conditions . I have taken to using that cleanse on evade food so that EA removes two a time. The power given up via the food can easily be made up for by taking a damage oriented line (such as CS). Bountiful theft utility drops with less boon rip so trickster will see more use and if you use trickster (Cs/TR/XX) you generally have enough cleanses.

If there greater numbers of people using condition builds over all it meaningless as in outnumbered situations you would die to power just as readily.

To Acro itself. With the changes the only trait that adds much to your ability to withstand a Condition meta is Don't stop. Pain response gets an increase to the ICD and I just do not see it as reliable for cleansing. The way I see it if you want are counting on pain response for a cleanse that occurs once in 60 seconds you probably should be using that 60 seconds to be churning out more damage instead. Basing a build on traits with overly long cool downs is a bad idea IMO. You might see the trait kick in once per fight if at all and if in an outnumbered situation a trait that kicks in once per fight will not help a lot.

[Black Frog.9274]

so, can some kind soul break down how this might affect a P/P thief? Are we still the red headed step children of GW2?

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Black Frog.9274 said:so, can some kind soul break down how this might affect a P/P thief? Are we still the red headed step children of GW2?

P/P in PvE looks good. WvW and PvP P/P would not be worth it after the patch. The Unload nerf sucks.

[Dzheen.5291]

@Black Frog.9274 said:so, can some kind soul break down how this might affect a P/P thief? Are we still the red headed step children of GW2?

We lost 15% single target damage with trait changes. Now +5% vs crippled target and +5% with pistol, will be -5% on all p/p skills and no cripple.

We lost damage from PI, from Bound.Less survivability: longer cd on withdraw and roll for initiative.And -30% damage across all class and skills.If we can switch in combat between new trait and old it will be buff. But now this is nerf for p/p.

[Exitus.3297]

@SoulSin.5682 said:I guess Shadow Art's managed to hide from ArenaNet this time.

LoL at headshot 2 seconds stun at PvE.

I am a little sad that PI got nerfed again tough. This skill already cannot crit, going from 2 to 0.75 is just sad.At least keep it at 1.2 or 1.0

They aren't nerfing it as hard as you think. The 2.0 Power Coefficient is wrong. Mug and PI do the same damage in PvP (maybe off by a very tiny bit). Go take a look at their tooltips in game if you don't believe me.

Still, they are definitely overnerfing it regardless.

[babazhook.6805]

One thing noticed in the notes is that Ankle shots has seen cripple duration drop to 2 seconds yet at the same time Ankle shots replaced with deadly aim. Does this mean deadly aim will still apply that Cripple as an effect added to the pierce?

(Edit) NM read further and answered my question.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

pls delete

[babazhook.6805]

Well I was really hoping this patch would roll out today. Enough of the speculation as to what is going to happen!

[Sobx.1758]

The patch was planned to go live in march.

[saerni.2584]

Unlike with the last patch Anet seems to have had very limited response to the forum feedback.

I’m wondering if we will get a 2.0 version of the balance changes in response to the feedback or if we will just see the outcome on patch day in March.

[Black Frog.9274]

@Dzheen.5291 said:

@Black Frog.9274 said:so, can some kind soul break down how this might affect a P/P thief? Are we still the red headed step children of GW2?

We lost 15% single target damage with trait changes. Now +5% vs crippled target and +5% with pistol, will be -5% on all p/p skills and no cripple.

We lost damage from PI, from Bound.Less survivability: longer cd on withdraw and roll for initiative.And -30% damage across all class and skills.If we can switch in combat between new trait and old it will be buff. But now this is nerf for p/p.

I just don't understand nerfing a weapon set that is already next to useless. Guess I'll be back in a year to see what's happened.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Black Frog.9274 said:

@Dzheen.5291 said:

@Black Frog.9274 said:so, can some kind soul break down how this might affect a P/P thief? Are we still the red headed step children of GW2?

We lost 15% single target damage with trait changes. Now +5% vs crippled target and +5% with pistol, will be -5% on all p/p skills and no cripple.

We lost damage from PI, from Bound.Less survivability: longer cd on withdraw and roll for initiative.And -30% damage across all class and skills.If we can switch in combat between new trait and old it will be buff. But now this is nerf for p/p.

I just don't understand nerfing a weapon set that is already next to useless. Guess I'll be back in a year to see what's happened.

Nerf is a relative term. Relative to the other changes that is going to happen, it looks like a nerf on paper, but I think it may not be too bad. Although, relative to other Thief builds, yeah it's still useless, lol. P/P was never a good build in WvW or PvP -- not enough defense after the Black Powder nerf long time ago. However, it may have a place in WvW Zerg due to the piercing bullets...we'll see, I guess.

[Bern.9613]

And the other shoe falls;Additional changes thief nerfs (minus the previously mentioned stability skills)

Concealing Restoration: Reduced stealth duration from 2 seconds to 1 second.Rending Shade: Reduced number of boons stolen from 2 to 1.Assassin's Signet: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds.Leeching Venoms: Reduced maximum stacks of spider venom provided by this trait from 6 to 2.Malicious Backstab: Reduced power coefficients from 1.2/2.4 to 0.9/1.8Smokescreen: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds

Slow clap

[babazhook.6805]

@Bern.9613 said:And the other shoe falls;Additional changes thief nerfs (minus the previously mentioned stability skills)

Concealing Restoration: Reduced stealth duration from 2 seconds to 1 second.Rending Shade: Reduced number of boons stolen from 2 to 1.Assassin's Signet: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds.Leeching Venoms: Reduced maximum stacks of spider venom provided by this trait from 6 to 2.Malicious Backstab: Reduced power coefficients from 1.2/2.4 to 0.9/1.8Smokescreen: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds

Slow clap

Pretty well hit thief with everything. The first run through went a long ways towards weakening thief. I do not think these adds were warranted until into the launch as it merely listening to the loudest complaints.

[saerni.2584]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Bern.9613 said:And the other shoe falls;Additional

changes

thief nerfs (minus the previously mentioned stability skills)

Concealing Restoration: Reduced stealth duration from 2 seconds to 1 second.Rending Shade: Reduced number of boons stolen from 2 to 1.Assassin's Signet: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds.Leeching Venoms: Reduced maximum stacks of spider venom provided by this trait from 6 to 2.Malicious Backstab: Reduced power coefficients from 1.2/2.4 to 0.9/1.8Smokescreen: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds

Slow clap

Pretty well hit thief with everything. The first run through went a long ways towards weakening thief. I do not think these adds were warranted until into the launch as it merely listening to the loudest complaints.

A few changes make sense but I’m starting to get the feeling they want to remove the venoms entirely.

Two stacks of venom is barely anything and I’d rather take Flickering Shadows at this point. There isn’t enough trade off between defense (33% reduction while revealed) and two stacks of venom (which can whiff and do no damage) to make both a viable option.

Likewise with Smoke Screen. I’m not sure why they are not just cutting the radius/duration rather than increasing the cooldown almost 100%. Builds that can reset cooldowns will get a lot of use out of this and otherwise it may simply be too long to justify the utility slot. I may end up swapping out for an alternative utility at this point.

Which is not to say that I mind “my build” being nerfed with Smoke Screen. I’m just as excited for the new meta and the opportunity to reformat to a new build. I’m just sad because I feel like this was a good skill that may be relegated to the “non-viable” bin.

[kash.9213]

@saerni.2584 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Bern.9613 said:And the other shoe falls;Additional

changes

thief nerfs (minus the previously mentioned stability skills)

Concealing Restoration: Reduced stealth duration from 2 seconds to 1 second.Rending Shade: Reduced number of boons stolen from 2 to 1.Assassin's Signet: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds.Leeching Venoms: Reduced maximum stacks of spider venom provided by this trait from 6 to 2.Malicious Backstab: Reduced power coefficients from 1.2/2.4 to 0.9/1.8Smokescreen: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds

Slow clap

Pretty well hit thief with everything. The first run through went a long ways towards weakening thief. I do not think these adds were warranted until into the launch as it merely listening to the loudest complaints.

A few changes make sense but I’m starting to get the feeling they want to remove the venoms entirely.

Two stacks of venom is barely anything and I’d rather take Flickering Shadows at this point. There isn’t enough trade off between defense (33% reduction while revealed) and two stacks of venom (which can whiff and do no damage) to make both a viable option.

Likewise with Smoke Screen. I’m not sure why they are not just cutting the radius/duration rather than increasing the cooldown almost 100%. Builds that can reset cooldowns will get a lot of use out of this and otherwise it may simply be too long to justify the utility slot. I may end up swapping out for an alternative utility at this point.

Which is not to say that I mind “my build” being nerfed with Smoke Screen. I’m just as excited for the new meta and the opportunity to reformat to a new build. I’m just sad because I feel like this was a good skill that may be relegated to the “non-viable” bin.

I tend to use up my venom before stacking it up now anyway and it does what it does and would probably perform about the same in that regard, but not being able to put some effort into it for a slightly bigger payoff really cheapens it.

[Antipode.7830]

@kash.9213 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

A few changes make sense but I’m starting to get the feeling they want to remove the venoms entirely.

Two stacks of venom is barely anything and I’d rather take Flickering Shadows at this point. There isn’t enough trade off between defense (33% reduction while revealed) and two stacks of venom (which can whiff and do no damage) to make both a viable option.

Likewise with Smoke Screen. I’m not sure why they are not just cutting the radius/duration rather than increasing the cooldown almost 100%. Builds that can reset cooldowns will get a lot of use out of this and otherwise it may simply be too long to justify the utility slot. I may end up swapping out for an alternative utility at this point.

Which is not to say that I mind “my build” being nerfed with Smoke Screen. I’m just as excited for the new meta and the opportunity to reformat to a new build. I’m just sad because I feel like this was a good skill that may be relegated to the “non-viable” bin.

I tend to use up my venom before stacking it up now anyway and it does what it does and would probably perform about the same in that regard, but not being able to put some effort into it for a slightly bigger payoff really cheapens it.

I think the devs have always had trouble figuring out where venoms fit in. Remember when venom share wasn't baseline? They're just passive condi applications. They're not terribly satisfying support skills (though I guess you could make a condi team pretty oppressive between that and a stealth initiation?), and they don't add much to most thief builds (that I am aware of anyway). What is the goal with them apart from fulfilling the assassin-style identity of poison use? Does anyone actually use the chill venom? Or the... what even are they? Poison, chill, immob, and...? ???

[babazhook.6805]

It going to take some testing but my concern over the patch is while they may have decreased damage across the board what might not have been calculated in is base vitality discrepancy between classes. When some classes have an 8k HIT point advantage out of the gate added to inherent heavy armor damage reduction , a system with lower damage overall means longer fights. Longer fights means that vitality advantage has a greater impact.

If a thief gearing power just can not break down an enemy with 25k health +3k armor in a decent amount of time they will just break off or switch to condi.

[kash.9213]

@babazhook.6805 said:It going to take some testing but my concern over the patch is while they may have decreased damage across the board what might not have been calculated in is base vitality discrepancy between classes. When some classes have an 8k HIT point advantage out of the gate added to inherent heavy armor damage reduction , a system with lower damage overall means longer fights. Longer fights means that vitality advantage has a greater impact.

If a thief gearing power just can not break down an enemy with 25k health +3k armor in a decent amount of time they will just break off or switch to condi.

I assumed that would have been thought of but I've been worried a little about that. I assumed it was considered because Initiative has been regulated enough or too much maybe and I figured they didn't want thieves to have an option of multiple big hits in a row in what's being designed to be a staggered out fight.

[omgdracula.6345]

Seems like S/D will be the only viable build again? D/P Core seems to have gotten hit pretty hard. Sad panda.