Conditions

[joaolucas.2816]

It’s something that I can’t really understand. Why do people prefer to take 7k damage in a single blow while evading over the time of 1 hit, instead of 7k damage in 2 - 3 seconds by conditions? I see a lot of people complaining in the forums about conditions being op but 85% of the builds are power oriented. I mean, maybe a lack of skill? Other than condi mesmer, I can’t see any condi build so oppressive as symbolbrand, that’s hybrid but mostly power damage and carry 10CCs. I play around plat 1/2 NA and I run reaper, and I can pretty much manage conditions even not running Consume Conditions as healing skill.

I do agree that condi builds has less telegraphed attacks but, imo, it makes sense considering you can just cleanse before taking the huge chunk of damage or extend your fight without really being damage while on resistance.

The point is, are condi builds really overperforming or this might be just a not good condition management by the player?

[Tayga.3192]

@joaolucas.2816 said:I do agree that condi builds has less telegraphed attacksYes.

imo, it makes sense considering you can just cleanse before taking the huge chunk of damage or extend your fight without really being damage while on resistance.And my opinion is that skills like Corrupt Boon should have more noticeable animations. For this example, it's nearly as important as half a Bull's Charge.

[Ragnar.4257]

It's got nothing to do with how strong/weak conditions are compared to power.

It's about the method of delivery.

Power builds, for the most part, have a few hard-hitting skills, that if you dodge then you win, and if you don't dodge you lose. They're often better telegraphed as well.

Condition builds, for the most part, are designed around pulsing AoE fields, and spamming chip attacks for on-hit/on-crit effects. There's nothing important to dodge, it's just an endless bombardment of tiny attacks.

When people lose to a power build, they're less likely to feel they've been "cheated" because it's fairly obvious that they could've dodged that eviscerate/mightyblow/maul etc etc. The player who did the best job dodging or setting up hits wins. There's an honesty to it.

When people lose to a condi build, it generally feels more like the build won rather than the person. It feels cheap. It wasn't to do with dodging the right stuff or setting up the right combo's, it was just an inevitability of the combination of traits, stats, slotted skills, etc.

I'm not saying those view are always "correct", but that's why people don't like condi. Method of delivery. Not comparative strength.

[Crab Fear.1624]

Looking at the amulets and runes that support a condition build, it appears you can build with more sustain or toughness and not lose effectiveness (currently)

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"Ragnar.4257" said:It's got nothing to do with how strong/weak conditions are compared to power.

It's about the method of delivery.

Power builds, for the most part, have a few hard-hitting skills, that if you dodge then you win, and if you don't dodge you lose. They're often better telegraphed as well.

Condition builds, for the most part, are designed around pulsing AoE fields, and spamming chip attacks for on-hit/on-crit effects. There's nothing important to dodge, it's just an endless bombardment of tiny attacks.

When people lose to a power build, they're less likely to feel they've been "cheated" because it's fairly obvious that they could've dodged that eviscerate/mightyblow/maul etc etc. The player who did the best job dodging or setting up hits wins. There's an honesty to it.

When people lose to a condi build, it generally feels more like the build won rather than the person. It feels cheap. It wasn't to do with dodging the right stuff or setting up the right combo's, it was just an inevitability of the combination of traits, stats, slotted skills, etc.

I'm not saying those view are always "correct", but that's why people don't like condi. Method of delivery. Not comparative strength.

You can cleanse. Let me say that again. You can cleanse. It doesn't matter if you're constantly applying conditions. It's the same thing. You avoid the big condi bomb attacks and CCs, just like fighting a power build. Then you cleanse the big threats as needed. Apply counter-pressure. It's all the same. The only difference is that you can be dead before you realize it. But had it been a power build you would have died just the same.

[Ragnar.4257]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"Ragnar.4257" said:It's got nothing to do with how strong/weak conditions are compared to power.

It's about the method of delivery.

Power builds, for the most part, have a few hard-hitting skills, that if you dodge then you win, and if you don't dodge you lose. They're often better telegraphed as well.

Condition builds, for the most part, are designed around pulsing AoE fields, and spamming chip attacks for on-hit/on-crit effects. There's nothing important to dodge, it's just an endless bombardment of tiny attacks.

When people lose to a power build, they're less likely to feel they've been "cheated" because it's fairly obvious that they could've dodged that eviscerate/mightyblow/maul etc etc. The player who did the best job dodging or setting up hits wins. There's an honesty to it.

When people lose to a condi build, it generally feels more like the build won rather than the person. It feels cheap. It wasn't to do with dodging the right stuff or setting up the right combo's, it was just an inevitability of the combination of traits, stats, slotted skills, etc.

I'm not saying those view are always "correct", but that's why people don't like condi.

Method of delivery

.

Not

comparative strength.

You can cleanse. Let me say that again. You can cleanse. It doesn't matter if you're constantly applying conditions. It's the same thing. You avoid the big condi bomb attacks and CCs, just like fighting a power build. Then you cleanse the big threats as needed. Apply counter-pressure. It's all the same. The only difference is that you can be dead before you realize it. But had it been a power build you would have died just the same.

You're still arguing about comparative strength.

I couldn't have made it any more clear, but I'll say again.

It isn't about comparative strength. This is not about whether condi is stronger or weaker than power. Apart from a few outlying builds, condi is quite obviously weaker.

It is about the method of delivery.

Against a condi-mirage, there's not really anything you "have" to dodge. And that is the problem. Against a fire-weaver, unless he pops glyph, stance and lava skin all at once, there's nothing you really "have" to dodge. Against Scourge or core Necro, there's nothing you really "have" to dodge.

It is 100% irrelevant that cleanses actually make condi comparatively weak. The method of delivery is anti-fun, totally regardless of strength.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:It's got nothing to do with how strong/weak conditions are compared to power.

It's about the method of delivery.

Power builds, for the most part, have a few hard-hitting skills, that if you dodge then you win, and if you don't dodge you lose. They're often better telegraphed as well.

Condition builds, for the most part, are designed around pulsing AoE fields, and spamming chip attacks for on-hit/on-crit effects. There's nothing important to dodge, it's just an endless bombardment of tiny attacks.

When people lose to a power build, they're less likely to feel they've been "cheated" because it's fairly obvious that they could've dodged that eviscerate/mightyblow/maul etc etc. The player who did the best job dodging or setting up hits wins. There's an honesty to it.

When people lose to a condi build, it generally feels more like the build won rather than the person. It feels cheap. It wasn't to do with dodging the right stuff or setting up the right combo's, it was just an inevitability of the combination of traits, stats, slotted skills, etc.

I'm not saying those view are always "correct", but that's why people don't like condi.

Method of delivery

.

Not

comparative strength.

You can cleanse. Let me say that again. You can cleanse. It doesn't matter if you're constantly applying conditions. It's the same thing. You avoid the big condi bomb attacks and CCs, just like fighting a power build. Then you cleanse the big threats as needed. Apply counter-pressure. It's all the same. The only difference is that you can be dead before you realize it. But had it been a power build you would have died just the same.

You're still arguing about comparative strength.

I couldn't have made it any more clear, but I'll say again.

It isn't about comparative strength. This is

not

about whether condi is stronger or weaker than power. Apart from a few outlying builds, condi is quite obviously weaker.

It is about the method of delivery.

Against a condi-mirage, there's not really anything you "have" to dodge. And that is the problem. Against a fire-weaver, unless he pops glyph, stance and lava skin all at once, there's nothing you really "have" to dodge. Against Scourge or core Necro, there's nothing you really "have" to dodge.

It is 100% irrelevant that cleanses actually make condi comparatively weak. The method of delivery is anti-fun, totally regardless of strength.

Okay. I disagree that it's "un-fun". I don't see the difference between kiting a weaver when they pop cooldowns and avoiding a warrior's CC->power burst. I guess we'll leave it at that.

[Zeus.9458]

@Ragnar.4257 said:It's got nothing to do with how strong/weak conditions are compared to power.

It's about the method of delivery.

Power builds, for the most part, have a few hard-hitting skills, that if you dodge then you win, and if you don't dodge you lose. They're often better telegraphed as well.

Condition builds, for the most part, are designed around pulsing AoE fields, and spamming chip attacks for on-hit/on-crit effects. There's nothing important to dodge, it's just an endless bombardment of tiny attacks.

When people lose to a power build, they're less likely to feel they've been "cheated" because it's fairly obvious that they could've dodged that eviscerate/mightyblow/maul etc etc. The player who did the best job dodging or setting up hits wins. There's an honesty to it.

When people lose to a condi build, it generally feels more like the build won rather than the person. It feels cheap. It wasn't to do with dodging the right stuff or setting up the right combo's, it was just an inevitability of the combination of traits, stats, slotted skills, etc.

I'm not saying those view are always "correct", but that's why people don't like condi. Method of delivery. Not comparative strength.

The guy NAILED IT.

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:It's got nothing to do with how strong/weak conditions are compared to power.

It's about the method of delivery.

Power builds, for the most part, have a few hard-hitting skills, that if you dodge then you win, and if you don't dodge you lose. They're often better telegraphed as well.

Condition builds, for the most part, are designed around pulsing AoE fields, and spamming chip attacks for on-hit/on-crit effects. There's nothing important to dodge, it's just an endless bombardment of tiny attacks.

When people lose to a power build, they're less likely to feel they've been "cheated" because it's fairly obvious that they could've dodged that eviscerate/mightyblow/maul etc etc. The player who did the best job dodging or setting up hits wins. There's an honesty to it.

When people lose to a condi build, it generally feels more like the build won rather than the person. It feels cheap. It wasn't to do with dodging the right stuff or setting up the right combo's, it was just an inevitability of the combination of traits, stats, slotted skills, etc.

I'm not saying those view are always "correct", but that's why people don't like condi.

Method of delivery

.

Not

comparative strength.

You can cleanse. Let me say that again. You can cleanse. It doesn't matter if you're constantly applying conditions. It's the same thing. You avoid the big condi bomb attacks and CCs, just like fighting a power build. Then you cleanse the big threats as needed. Apply counter-pressure. It's all the same. The only difference is that you can be dead before you realize it. But had it been a power build you would have died just the same.

You're still arguing about comparative strength.

I couldn't have made it any more clear, but I'll say again.

It isn't about comparative strength. This is

not

about whether condi is stronger or weaker than power. Apart from a few outlying builds, condi is quite obviously weaker.

It is about the method of delivery.

Against a condi-mirage, there's not really anything you "have" to dodge. And that is the problem. Against a fire-weaver, unless he pops glyph, stance and lava skin all at once, there's nothing you really "have" to dodge. Against Scourge or core Necro, there's nothing you really "have" to dodge.

It is 100% irrelevant that cleanses actually make condi comparatively weak. The method of delivery is anti-fun, totally regardless of strength.

Okay. I disagree that it's "un-fun". I don't see the difference between kiting a weaver when they pop cooldowns and avoiding a warrior's CC->power burst. I guess we'll leave it at that.

He is 100% right, and its all about the fun of the fight/ skill.I am sorry, I do not have any thought of "skill" to a player who relies on condis, since the damage is made by system and not the player.Imagine a mesmer, who can literally not move from its place, and you die cus clones (system) just send infinte conditions to you which HURT.and you ralk about "cleanses". cleanse traits cost you TONS of defense and damage. so if you have 1 enemy full condi and the rest power, you might survvie the condi one, but what about the other 4?

anyway, conditions imo are just a cheap way, talentless way, to win fights, whereas playing power build requires much more thought on WHEN to land the damage, cus it can be evaded easily, and the skills which provide HIGH damage are more likely to have x15 more CD times than a condi stack.And when we say conditions are OP, it means not only the CD of stack is extremly low, you can now reach HIGH DAMAGE in a stack of only 2-3 of the condition.Example: ele's fire signet, just drop that from 900 range, and u drain 11k hp. talent? huh.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

people would rather lose in 5 seconds then 30.

[MyPuppy.8970]

Like @Ragnar.4257 pointed out. I'll just add that condies don't just dps - they also have effects (even if most are covers to the damaging ones) that impair your fighting capabilities, while power is just brute force and pure damage in your teeth (even if some kind of setup like hard cc/immob). There is some kind of purity (or honesty as Ragnar said) in power builds if you ask me. Condies just feel cheap because more easily spammable and safer due to auto-procs from traits/runes/sigils that you can can only see after you've been hit.

[Dantheman.3589]

Less conditions the stronger the rnger class

[choovanski.5462]

the reason you think condi builds don't have skills you need to evade/dodge is due to low skill. they do. believing this is actual proof you are a bad player

people in gw2 have always just had a low understanding of condi builds and managing cleanses. they would rather not slot cleanse or learn and just fight power builds.

the argument that applying a condi somehow less skill than blasting someone down with 3k auto attacks, or landing two 10k+ dmg skills is, and always has been a joke. it's just a defense of bad players against admitting they are bad at the game.

you can avoid condi spikes. you can basically play the same as you would with a power build, just you can cleanse damage you didn't avoid. some could even say it's an easier fight, I mean if you don't think so you might just be a crap warrior B)

[Avatar.3568]

Condi spikes are dodgeable, blockable and can be cleaned.

But there are less telegraphed, but you can see them and avoid, it's just harder, and to deal a fight without getting hit by condi is mostly impossible (makes sense, because they want to kill you too)

It just feels sometimes they condi player isn't doing that much more than the power player, but in general they are both doing pretty hard and you can outplay both with evade, block etc..

[saerni.2584]

Personally, general cleanse (but not cleanse of particular conditions) should be removed from the game, Condi application traits removed (Other than those that give the F1-5 skills Condi application because both Condi and Power variants should be able to use their profession abilities to equal effect), Condi application on weapons and utilities increased to compensate for those losses, and damage for Condi overall (bleed, poison, burn, torment, confusion) rebalanced around less cleanse.

I’d also like to see an actual trend towards increasing Condi base durations, which they said they wanted to do but didn’t increase any durations in their sample notes (and actually nerfed durations in several cases).