Finally give Unholy Sanctuary a 300s ICD

[Tayga.3192]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Death magic and US aren't the reason this fight takes a while. In fact US contributes almost nothing to this engagement at all..

Yea it's more about these:

When you moa a necro and if it dies while moa'd, they become a... shrouded moa.Also it ignores 10s cooldown of shroud so you can't even burst when they just leave shroud.

[Tayga.3192]

@Zephoid.4263 said:300s cds are bad for the game in every way. They are a kneejerk reaction to abilities being hard to balance.

No, they give skills 300s cd because pvp balance team can't rework without skills team. Those traits are just .

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Zephoid.4263 said:300s cds are bad for the game in every way. They are a kneejerk reaction to abilities being hard to balance. Balanced the skill on its merit, not on an arbitrary 300s cd.

Unholy sanctuary is NOT the problem though. Eternal Life is. Passive lifeforce generation is a HUGE early game plus. Being able to early pop into shroud with 1/2+ lifeforce is great, and having a near guarenteed 40% lifeforce every time shroud is off cd is huge. The huge protection uptime is silly also. I took rune of the grove in 2v2 for stacking duration protection.

Necro not having 300s cd on its passive is a middle finger to any other class that got its cooldown increased. same way they shroud sustain did not get nerfed by 30% like most other sustain and this is why the issue happens.Will necro be too weak if they lose shroud generation by 30% across the board? propably, but not even trying to do anything is worse then trying and failing.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:Necro not having 300s cd on its passive is a middle finger to any other class that got its cooldown increased.

See, here's the thing.It's not.Classes have mechanical differences. Necro happens to be the only class in the game where their whole method of sustain involves facetanking a whole lot of damage. That's why they were bad for years/farmed by thief and mesmer for years. That's why the meta formed around targeting necro for focus in point engagements.What may work for the other classes on this front may not specifically work for necro. I am for adjusting the cd, but not to 300 seconds. That's too much.

@Tayga.3192 said:When you moa a necro and if it dies while moa'd, they become a... shrouded moa.

I dont care how it breaks the game death chicken stays in.

Also it ignores 10s cooldown of shroud so you can't even burst when they just leave shroud.

Maybe we can look at this instead, or better yet the threshold for shroud to activate the trait.

[Vancho.8750]

Core necro is another shite condi bunker build that scales well in team fight since it has so much random conditions that do fuck all as damage but work way too well as cc and covers. So if you happen to have another condi build that stacks allot of the same condition like firebrand or condi rev, even fire weaver the pooch is screwed. I think people have gotten way too used to necro being free kill and are confused when this lame punching bag build came to be, maybe they should increase the Shroud degeneration for core or the abilities should degenerate some life force(they will need rework though since core shroud abilities are crap).They can change unholy sanctuary to reduces the cooldown of shroud by x seconds boom you have useful non passive trait all about them skill clicks, also it is kinda bad compared to the other passive traits since it requires resource to be useful, so what do you think about it getting full shroud in 300 second cd .I think they should rework the passive traits this 300 second, this bs was supposed to be band aid solution till they change them to more active traits, but they forgot about it and we have dead traits instead.So you can notice that most things that are broken are nerfed to oblivion so they are not played instead of being reworked to something more fair. Scourge was on the chopper(not as bad many think),mirage got axed cause it was cancer by design, and before that berserker was decapitated got reworked after 2 years in the shitter and it is still not good for pvp.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Zephoid.4263 said:300s cds are bad for the game in every way. They are a kneejerk reaction to abilities being hard to balance. Balanced the skill on its merit, not on an arbitrary 300s cd.

Unholy sanctuary is NOT the problem though. Eternal Life is. Passive lifeforce generation is a HUGE early game plus. Being able to early pop into shroud with 1/2+ lifeforce is great, and having a near guarenteed 40% lifeforce every time shroud is off cd is huge. The huge protection uptime is silly also. I took rune of the grove in 2v2 for stacking duration protection.

Necro not having 300s cd on its passive is a middle finger to any other class that got its cooldown increased. same way they shroud sustain did not get nerfed by 30% like most other sustain and this is why the issue happens.Will necro be too weak if they lose shroud generation by 30% across the board? propably, but not even trying to do anything is worse then trying and failing.

Define shroud sustain.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Zephoid.4263 said:300s cds are bad for the game in every way. They are a kneejerk reaction to abilities being hard to balance. Balanced the skill on its merit, not on an arbitrary 300s cd.

Unholy sanctuary is NOT the problem though. Eternal Life is. Passive lifeforce generation is a HUGE early game plus. Being able to early pop into shroud with 1/2+ lifeforce is great, and having a near guarenteed 40% lifeforce every time shroud is off cd is huge. The huge protection uptime is silly also. I took rune of the grove in 2v2 for stacking duration protection.

Necro not having 300s cd on its passive is a middle finger to any other class that got its cooldown increased. same way they shroud sustain did not get nerfed by 30% like most other sustain and this is why the issue happens.Will necro be too weak if they lose shroud generation by 30% across the board? propably, but not even trying to do anything is worse then trying and failing.

Define shroud sustain.

Shroud generation, healing and evasion is a form of sustain. Other classes got hit in that department, necro did not so they are MUCH stronger then they were.

EDIT.Most classes dodge and heal.Necro heals and gains shield ( shroud ).Evasion, boons and healing got nerfed, shroud did not.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Zephoid.4263 said:300s cds are bad for the game in every way. They are a kneejerk reaction to abilities being hard to balance. Balanced the skill on its merit, not on an arbitrary 300s cd.

Unholy sanctuary is NOT the problem though. Eternal Life is. Passive lifeforce generation is a HUGE early game plus. Being able to early pop into shroud with 1/2+ lifeforce is great, and having a near guarenteed 40% lifeforce every time shroud is off cd is huge. The huge protection uptime is silly also. I took rune of the grove in 2v2 for stacking duration protection.

Necro not having 300s cd on its passive is a middle finger to any other class that got its cooldown increased. same way they shroud sustain did not get nerfed by 30% like most other sustain and this is why the issue happens.Will necro be too weak if they lose shroud generation by 30% across the board? propably, but not even trying to do anything is worse then trying and failing.

Define shroud sustain.

Shroud generation, healing and evasion is a form of sustain. Other classes got hit in that department, necro did not so they are MUCH stronger then they were.

EDIT.Most classes dodge and heal.Necro heals and gains shield ( shroud ).Evasion, boons and healing got nerfed, shroud did not.

For shroud gen signet got cut in half and Unholy Martyr got cut just over half. The only thing that needs some changes is blood magic life leech, lich form, and fear of death. Shroud generation isn't really that high unless you actually spec into it.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Zephoid.4263 said:300s cds are bad for the game in every way. They are a kneejerk reaction to abilities being hard to balance. Balanced the skill on its merit, not on an arbitrary 300s cd.

Unholy sanctuary is NOT the problem though. Eternal Life is. Passive lifeforce generation is a HUGE early game plus. Being able to early pop into shroud with 1/2+ lifeforce is great, and having a near guarenteed 40% lifeforce every time shroud is off cd is huge. The huge protection uptime is silly also. I took rune of the grove in 2v2 for stacking duration protection.

Necro not having 300s cd on its passive is a middle finger to any other class that got its cooldown increased. same way they shroud sustain did not get nerfed by 30% like most other sustain and this is why the issue happens.Will necro be too weak if they lose shroud generation by 30% across the board? propably, but not even trying to do anything is worse then trying and failing.

Define shroud sustain.

Shroud generation, healing and evasion is a form of sustain. Other classes got hit in that department, necro did not so they are MUCH stronger then they were.

EDIT.Most classes dodge and heal.Necro heals and gains shield ( shroud ).Evasion, boons and healing got nerfed, shroud did not.

For shroud gen signet got cut in half and Unholy Martyr got cut just over half. The only thing that needs some changes is blood magic life leech, lich form, and fear of death. Shroud generation isn't really that high unless you actually spec into it.

its irrelevent if its high or not, fact remains that almost all healing got cut off, from healing skills, healing on dodge, healing ticks, regeneration or some unique healing like warriors MMR.Shroud did not get such nerfs, no nerfs for fear shroud, no nerfs to life leech, no nerfs to marks giving shroud no nerfs to condition->shroud etc etc.I played without signet and without autoproc shroud trait and it was same level of disgusting raw HP.It needs to be fixed but Iv no clue how to do that exactly ¯\(ツ)/¯

[Shao.7236]

90 seconds like Versed in Stone is more reasonable, a lot can happen between that.

Also even if it can save the Necro's life in some scenario, it doesn't save them the same as those traits mentioned.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Endure_Pain#PvP (Saves from one shot.)https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Signet_of_Stone#WvW.2CPvP (Saves from one shot.)https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Arcane_Shield#WvW.2CPvP (This one is kinda funny, can save from a burst but not lot of damage, 90 seconds would have still been fine.)https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Instant_Reflexes#WvW.2CPvP (Saves from one shot.)https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Balanced_Stance#WvW.2CPvP (Can save from one shots that are followed by CCs.)https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retaliatory_Subconscious (This one deserves 90 second too considering that it only takes one block to ruin a burst.)

[Tharan.9085]

@"Shao.7236" said:90 seconds like Versed in Stone is more reasonable, a lot can happen between that.

Also even if it can save the Necro's life in some scenario, it doesn't save them the same as those traits mentioned.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Endure_Pain#PvP (Saves from one shot.)https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Signet_of_Stone#WvW.2CPvP (Saves from one shot.)https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Arcane_Shield#WvW.2CPvP (This one is kinda funny, can save from a burst but not lot of damage, 90 seconds would have still been fine.)https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Instant_Reflexes#WvW.2CPvP (Saves from one shot.)https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Balanced_Stance#WvW.2CPvP (Can save from one shots that are followed by CCs.)https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retaliatory_Subconscious (This one deserves 90 second too considering that it only takes one block to ruin a burst.)

True, it doesnt save them in the same way, it's like 3x stronger

[Aktium.9506]

Man, I wonder how many of the people complaining about Unholy Sanctuary are mistaking manual shroud entries for US proccing. Because I'm just gonna point out that what looks like a tiny sliver of health left for the Necro to you is probably actually 4-8k health for the Necro. Most Necros know they won't be chunked for that much and can pressure or kite while that low and will just shroud manually if they actually do get attacked.

[Tayga.3192]

@Aktium.9506 said:Man, I wonder how many of the people complaining about Unholy Sanctuary are mistaking manual shroud entries for US proccing.

Nice, if that's the case, we can make US 300s cd right?

It's like any other passive and it needs to be 300s.

[NecroSummonsMors.7816]

Yeee let's use the same idiotic way of balancing by slapping stupid cooldowns on things instead of reworking them cauz it's a nice way to achieve balance for sure.Let's not propose a reasonable change or rework: "uh that is op, cancel it from the game"Years and years of death magic being trash, now just shredding it away, what you gonna ask next corrupter fervor deleted too? Because if we are playing the game of let's cancel trait i don't like I got a big list on all classes.Plus we all know y'all triggered because core necro(which is rn a meat shield with low dmg) isn't a free kill anymore, don't worry the knee jerk reaction will come from anet, and core necro will become pointless to play again.

[Tharan.9085]

@"NecroSummonsMors.7816" said:Yeee let's use the same idiotic way of balancing by slapping stupid cooldowns on things instead of reworking them cauz it's a nice way to achieve balance for sure.Let's not propose a reasonable change or rework: "uh that is op, cancel it from the game"Years and years of death magic being trash, now just shredding it away, what you gonna ask next corrupter fervor deleted too? Because if we are playing the game of let's cancel trait i don't like I got a big list on all classes.Plus we all know y'all triggered because core necro(which is rn a meat shield with low dmg) isn't a free kill anymore, don't worry the knee jerk reaction will come from anet, and core necro will become pointless to play again.

Even before patch core nec was meta btw, you're delusional if you think current nec is fine

[Downstate.4697]

The real question you should ask is why the last two patches made 1 or 2 changes and had 5 bug fixes. I look forward to each patch only to be let down =(

[Axl.8924]

Can we please not do idiotic nerfs by giving icd 300 sec? in fact why not reduce cd of the ot her skills that are so high and actually overhaul them like someone else said?

300 sec is kitten high, and in that time a nec could be long dead by the time its useable multiple times over. If you end up nerfing, it will end up being deleted then and nec simply won't pick that trait, and it becomes another trash pick that nobody would use with 300 sec. If you do something like nerf the protection bonus in shroud 33% that would be much more acceptable.

[Tayga.3192]

@Axl.8924 said:snip

PvP balance team can't rework skills by their own, 300s cd traits are like placeholders.And no, those passive skills are unskilled easy save.

@FrownyClown.8402 said:The real question you should ask is why the last two patches made 1 or 2 changes and had 5 bug fixes. I look forward to each patch only to be let down =(Power block is still double bugged, GS2 is still hitting less than it should etc, I guess mesmer bugs are eternal.

[NecroSummonsMors.7816]

@Tharan.9085 said:

@"NecroSummonsMors.7816" said:Yeee let's use the same idiotic way of balancing by slapping stupid cooldowns on things instead of reworking them cauz it's a nice way to achieve balance for sure.Let's not propose a reasonable change or rework: "uh that is op, cancel it from the game"Years and years of death magic being trash, now just shredding it away, what you gonna ask next corrupter fervor deleted too? Because if we are playing the game of let's cancel trait i don't like I got a big list on all classes.Plus we all know y'all triggered because core necro(which is rn a meat shield with low dmg) isn't a free kill anymore, don't worry the knee jerk reaction will come from anet, and core necro will become pointless to play again.

Even before patch core nec was meta btw, you're delusional if you think current nec is fine

I'm not saying core nec is fine now, infact in other posts I've proposed changes about it.My point is that core necro became meta just because scourge was wrecked, and the trend core necro is following right now is nerf here nerf there until there's nothing left. And not only that but by nerfing traitlines you impact even the elite specializations, but many of you do not care and just want to see the class in the dumpster no matter what. That's why most of the ppl don't bother to gives suggestions and like the original guy of the post you wanna nerf with stupid solutions.

[Brimstone Jack.3462]

I think a big problem people have with core necs in general is the low skill floor. They're still awesome at higher levels, but certainly not unbeatable. But you're also not SUPPOSED to just be able to face tank them, especially their bunkers builds. But I understand why they are so frustrating to lesser-skilled players or players that see that every match is swarmed with necs and still won't spec for them.

[Aktium.9506]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:Man, I wonder how many of the people complaining about Unholy Sanctuary are mistaking manual shroud entries for US proccing.

Nice, if that's the case, we can make US 300s cd right?I mean yeah, sure. You don't really take it for the procc. You take it for the regen in shroud. I can probably count the times where the procc has actually saved me on my two hands at best. I'm slightly perplexed as to why this is even an issue. Death Magic isn't really used at all for Core Condi. And I can't see bunker Nec being very useful in 5v5.

It's like any other passive and it needs to be 300s.Its really not. Others have already said why. But if we want absolute consistency then the following traits also need 300s CD:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Valorous_Defense

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Versed_in_Stone

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Automated_Medical_Response

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dead_or_Alive

[pninak.1069]

yea you are argueing in pretty much removing necro from pvp. scourge got nerfed very hard together with reaper. I think anet should nerf other especs to the ground first aswell in order to make everyone play core. then we got good balance. like they did with mesmer

[Tayga.3192]

@"Aktium.9506" said:I mean yeah, sure. You don't really take it for the procc. You take it for the regen in shroud. I can probably count the times where the procc has actually saved me on my two hands at best.More reasons to make it 300s cd.

I'm slightly perplexed as to why this is even an issue. Death Magic isn't really used at all for Core Condi. And I can't see bunker Nec being very useful in 5v5.It's not "broken op", it's just unskilled.Also it's pretty useful considering Hero held power rev, thief and prot holo 1v3 for 30 seconds in mAT finals in EU, and he was 75% hp. Could even stay alive longer if he just left the node.

Its really not. Others have already said why. But if we want absolute consistency then the following traits also need 300s CD:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Valorous_Defensehttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Versed_in_Stonehttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Automated_Medical_Responsehttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dead_or_Alive

I am fine with all of them becoming 300s cd. I mean, this 300 meme is just placeholder since pvp balance team can't rework traits on its own without skills team.

[Aktium.9506]

@Tayga.3192 said:Also it's pretty useful considering Hero held power rev, thief and prot holo 1v3 for 30 seconds in mAT finals in EU, and he was 75% hp. Could even stay alive longer if he just left the node.Ehhhh. I can't see it gaining traction in Conquest. It could survive half a minute 1v3 but it couldn't keep the cap and it can't do damage outside of lich. Decapping a point from a Necro is too easy for it to ever become an effective bunker and it lacks the tools to recap it. It's also not going to be doing much at all in teamfights. Maybe it could work as a ressbot and act as a condi magnet against condi heavy comps with traited Plague Sig, but that's unlikely too. Signet of Undeath is really easy to interrupt and costs the Nec 10k HP if it gets interrupted and it has no stability to cover the ress with.

[Tayga.3192]

@"Aktium.9506" said:Ehhhh. I can't see it gaining traction in Conquest. It could survive half a minute 1v3 but it couldn't keep the cap and it can't do damage outside of lich. Decapping a point from a Necro is too easy for it to ever become an effective bunker and it lacks the tools to recap it. It's also not going to be doing much at all in teamfights. Maybe it could work as a ressbot and act as a condi magnet against condi heavy comps with traited Plague Sig, but that's unlikely too. Signet of Undeath is really easy to interrupt and costs the Nec 10k HP if it gets interrupted and it has no stability to cover the ress with.

I don't think they run the signet-lich build anymore. This is the build they run. Also, holding 1v3 for 30 seconds against 3 top players is already a very big feat, that's the same duration as mesmer portal. Holding node on top of that would be chronobunker level if not greater.