Finally give Unholy Sanctuary a 300s ICD

[Aktium.9506]

@Tayga.3192 said:Also, holding 1v3 for 30 seconds against 3 top players is already a very big feat, that's the same duration as mesmer portal.So I'm basically a beastly godgamer then. Because I ran in circles solo for a proper 30-40s alone at mid against Sind and Misha + some random ranger on core condi until Boyce showed up and killed them in a match like a week ago.

Holding node on top of that would be chronobunker level if not greater.Not really going to happen tho. Chrono didn't give a shit about CC. You can't say the same for Necro.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:I mean yeah, sure. You don't really take it for the procc. You take it for the regen in shroud. I can probably count the times where the procc has actually saved me on my two hands at best.More reasons to make it 300s cd.

I'm slightly perplexed as to why this is even an issue. Death Magic isn't really used at all for Core Condi. And I can't see bunker Nec being very useful in 5v5.It's not "broken op", it's just unskilled.Also it's pretty useful considering Hero held power rev, thief and prot holo 1v3 for 30 seconds in mAT finals in EU, and he was 75% hp. Could even stay alive longer if he just left the node.

Couple of things. The fight starts with Nero at 89% health and 79% shroud. Almost max resources. The build played with that amount of protection also has the equivalent of well over 5k armour. US only contributes ~1s of shroud uptime and about 2.5k hp over the entire fight. For the entire fight should is used for about ~11s.

The first shroud stint lasts ~4s and they burn through all 79%. Not much longer than a standard block. Considering necro has 0 of these or evades it's not that bad.

The fight should have ended after this but they fail to interrupt the heal skill and then stand in double wells for the full duration. They gave a huge heal because of this.

US needs a longer cooldown but not 300s. It's really not the reason the engagement lasted so long. Literally blood magic is more of a problem and needs to be nerfed.

Its really not. Others have already said why. But if we want absolute consistency then the following traits also need 300s CD:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Valorous_Defense

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Versed_in_Stone

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Automated_Medical_Response

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dead_or_Alive

I am fine with all of them becoming 300s cd. I mean, this 300 meme is just placeholder since pvp balance team can't rework traits on its own without skills team.

Have you considered they don't have the cooldown because they don't want to redesign them?

What I find strange is near the games release people would wait till shroud ended to throw burst. Wouldn't waste any massive cooldowns either. But since damage because so high people got used to just barrelling through shroud without a care because "focus necro!! necro can't avoid anything and will eventually die." Sure some nerfs need to be had but there needs to be a mindset change instead of "I used to be able to throw all my strong skills into shroud and still win, now I can't and it's unfair".

[thehipone.6812]

@"Axl.8924" said:Can we please not do idiotic nerfs by giving icd 300 sec? in fact why not reduce cd of the ot her skills that are so high and actually overhaul them like someone else said?

300 sec is kitten high, and in that time a nec could be long dead by the time its useable multiple times over. If you end up nerfing, it will end up being deleted then and nec simply won't pick that trait, and it becomes another trash pick that nobody would use with 300 sec. If you do something like nerf the protection bonus in shroud 33% that would be much more acceptable.

The Guild Wars franchise has an established history of doing balance this way.

[Axl.8924]

@thehipone.6812 said:

@"Axl.8924" said:Can we please not do idiotic nerfs by giving icd 300 sec? in fact why not reduce cd of the ot her skills that are so high and actually overhaul them like someone else said?

300 sec is kitten high, and in that time a nec could be long dead by the time its useable multiple times over. If you end up nerfing, it will end up being deleted then and nec simply won't pick that trait, and it becomes another trash pick that nobody would use with 300 sec. If you do something like nerf the protection bonus in shroud 33% that would be much more acceptable.

The Guild Wars franchise has an

established history

of doing balance this way.

But its a bad suggestion.

It's like the mentality my old man has of if you have a cancer cut it out directly. That doesn't always work, and what if it spreads to areas that cannot be cut out?

This is why you have specs that literally end up getting gutted by stupid kitten suggestions that mess up a spec or class.

Anet shouldn't listen to bad ideas.

If you want to overhaul it or give it a slightly longer cd(not 300) fine but 300 sec is madness. Its longer than FGS which is already way too high.

Heck i think most of those traits are too high cd to be really that useful in combat.

[pninak.1069]

that's why they made the traits lines minimalistic with the choices. They want it easier to do balance. I think giving unholy sanctuary a 300s cd is no different than booning a trait to death.

now what people could do and always ignore is they could play pve or save the gold from pvp reward tracks and buy new char slots so you can play every class in the end win win.

but no people don't think that far, because they are selfcentered individuals.

[Nimon.7840]

@Tayga.3192 said:@"Azure The Heartless.3261"

3 top players (2 dps 1 bruiser) vs 1 necro, takes 30 seconds to kill from 75% health with coordinated bursts. Starts at 0:30

Now imagine in ranked where you can't coordinate this well with 2 other guys.

yes they are good Players, but their cc against that necro was laughable

[Tayga.3192]

@"Nimon.7840" said:yes they are good Players, but their cc against that necro was laughable

Well, that's all they could do. They immobed him, knocked him down with holo 5 and launched him with shield 5. Rev doesn't have much cc anyway, only axe.

Most of the "cc" necro mains refer to are in warrior, which is THE bunker killer class.

[Axl.8924]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Nimon.7840" said:yes they are good Players, but their cc against that necro was laughable

Well, that's all they could do. They immobed him, knocked him down with holo 5 and launched him with shield 5. Rev doesn't have much cc anyway, only axe.

Most of the "cc" necro mains refer to are in warrior, which is THE bunker killer class.

Which is why i defended the cc of warr. I know its kinda odd but i think something has to counter necro, and while it sucks to be cc bombed, it needs to stay as a possible counter to necro.

[Allarius.5670]

@Axl.8924 said:

@thehipone.6812 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Can we please not do idiotic nerfs by giving icd 300 sec? in fact why not reduce cd of the ot her skills that are so high and actually overhaul them like someone else said?

300 sec is kitten high, and in that time a nec could be long dead by the time its useable multiple times over. If you end up nerfing, it will end up being deleted then and nec simply won't pick that trait, and it becomes another trash pick that nobody would use with 300 sec. If you do something like nerf the protection bonus in shroud 33% that would be much more acceptable.

The Guild Wars franchise has an

established history

of doing balance this way.

But its a bad suggestion.

It's like the mentality my old man has of if you have a cancer cut it out directly. That doesn't always work, and what if it spreads to areas that cannot be cut out?

This is why you have specs that literally end up getting gutted by stupid kitten suggestions that mess up a spec or class.

Anet shouldn't listen to bad ideas.

If you want to overhaul it or give it a slightly longer cd(not 300) fine but 300 sec is madness. Its longer than FGS which is already way too high.

Heck i think most of those traits are too high cd to be really that useful in combat.

I don't think anyone is saying it IS a good idea. No one is happy that traits were given 300 sec cooldowns instead of being reworked and replaced. Folks are happy that similarly passive defensive traits were essentially removed as options, but they are not happy that they weren't reworked and replaced by an alternative so that options still exist. The suggestion that the trait be given a 300 sec cooldown proc is rooted in a belief that a consistent balance approach should also apply to necro.

Generally, tanks have historically existed throughout GW2 history. When their ability to sustain is rooted in a passive defensive trait, they have been historically nerfed. Compare this to tanks that have to cycle through active defensive cooldowns, where they may be toned down if necessary but their active skills usually remain largely unchanged.

Until such a time that these sorts of traits can be looked at, reworked, and replaced, folks are suggesting the trait be placed on a 300 sec cooldown as a temporary balance measure to essentially remove the trait's proc as an option while still allowing the healing function of the trait to exist.

I'd suggest offering alternative trait ideas (like replace the auto-shroud proc with stability when entering shroud), it would probably be a better use of time.

[James.1065]

@Tayga.3192 said:@"Azure The Heartless.3261"

3 top players (2 dps 1 bruiser) vs 1 necro, takes 30 seconds to kill from 75% health with coordinated bursts. Starts at 0:30

Now imagine in ranked where you can't coordinate this well with 2 other guys.

How can you call that poor necro who got wrecked time and time again "god mode"!? The only thing OP here was the theeef who made the video and didn't die the entire match... that's god mode and needs a nerf!

[Tayga.3192]

@"James.1065" said:How can you call that poor necro who got wrecked time and time again "god mode"!? The only thing OP here was the theeef who made the video and didn't die the entire match... that's god mode and needs a nerf!

Thief never dies anyway, but if you don't know the difference between a thief and a bunker necro I don't know what to say.

[Revolution.5409]

It is not an invulnerability, Necro regenerates life force and takes damage.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"James.1065" said:How can you call that poor necro who got wrecked time and time again "god mode"!? The only thing OP here was the theeef who made the video and didn't die the entire match... that's god mode and needs a nerf!

Dying fast/dying slow is not wholly indicative of class balance.This is literally the defense you have for unholy sanctuary being as it is right now. Don't undermine it with whataboutism.

[Kuma.1503]

I was initially on the 300 second cd train purely for the sake of consistency. Far weaker traits than UH were unjustifiably given the 300 second treatment and it felt like a slap in the face that this trait escaped the nerf bat.

I thought about it a bit longer and realized that UH wasn't the only trait to escape this nerf to begin with. It seems that, somewhat ironically, the weaker life saving traits that aren't as crucial to a spec's success were hard nerfed to 300 sec. Strong traits which a spec relies upon to function like UH and Bolstered Elements escaped the nerf.

Anet should just undo all 300sec nerfs until they rework these traits and give them workable cooldowns. 70-90 seconds seems like a reasonable threshold.

[Brujeria.7536]

Well, no. Unless the other traits this one actually has and needs the synergy with the class mechanic. It wont activate if you dont have shroud and it does give you not any benefit beside activating shroud. It does not generate shroud or something.

Also the argument that top players cant bring a necro down is laughable. If the necro where a thief he would just disengage and they could chase him over the map for 2+ Minutes. Does this make the Thief immortal? I dont think so. The burst was badly timed and with no CC attached.

Also Unholy Sanctuary was barely a factor here, it procced once with very little shroud left. Again shroud isnt gained for free at all and the shroud skills are bad. A warrior etc. in the same situation could have popped rampage and endure pain and at least delay the damage trough CC and better kiting.

[KrHome.1920]

@Tayga.3192 said:@"Azure The Heartless.3261"

3 top players (2 dps 1 bruiser) vs 1 necro, takes 30 seconds to kill from 75% health with coordinated bursts. Starts at 0:30

Now imagine in ranked where you can't coordinate this well with 2 other guys.Thanks for the proof you are just bad at the game (I am referring to our discussion in the other necro thread), when you think these players are good. Buttonmashing and ignoring your target's actions has nothing to do with skill. These kind of players suffer after the balance patch. That's no breaking news. These guys wouldn't even be able to remove a breakbar in pve.

• They did not interrupt the ultra long cast time heal. (A D/P thief (HEADSHOT!) not doing this is bad by definition.)
• They did stop pressuring when the necro was 2s away from dying and let him move upstairs to recover. (That would kill your nice 30s OMG OVERPOWERED! statistic.)
• They did not cc lock him one single time. (We've a cc -> burst meta! These guys didn't get that yet, I guess.)

In that amount of time I would have killed him alone.

@topicJust nerf the trait. It's a usless trait anyway (just like the whole DM traitline). Nevertheless nerfing it changes nothing. Buttonmashing people with trash builds will still have trouble killing bunker necros (and other bunker builds).

[Tayga.3192]

@KrHome.1920 said:Thanks for the proof you are just bad at the game (I am referring to our discussion in the other necro thread), when you think these players are good.

Man I love it when mAT winners are considered bad

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Thanks for the proof you are just bad at the game (I am referring to our discussion in the other necro thread), when you think these players are good.

Man I love it when mAT winners are considered bad

Doesn't matter how good you are at the game it doesn't stop you from making mistakes. Hindsight is 20/20 and obviously there is some adrenaline and pressure going on but it clear to see the mistakes they made here as an outside observer.

[Tayga.3192]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Doesn't matter how good you are at the game it doesn't stop you from making mistakes. Hindsight is 20/20 and obviously there is some adrenaline and pressure going on but it clear to see the mistakes they made here as an outside observer.

I mean, the necro also made mistakes. He isn't even necro main afaik.

Biggest one: insisting on the node instead of kiting

[KrHome.1920]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Thanks for the proof you are just bad at the game (I am referring to our discussion in the other necro thread), when you think these players are good.

Man I love it when mAT winners are considered bad

Doesn't matter how good you are at the game it doesn't stop you from making mistakes. Hindsight is 20/20 and obviously there is some adrenaline and pressure going on but it clear to see the mistakes they made here as an outside observer.Exactly. To clarify my statement: maybe these guys win tournaments regularly. But in this specific situation they acted poorly. I think they were overconfident to kill that necro quickly and didn't care about game mechanics - and so the fight lasted 30s.

The thing is, it is useless to take such a video and try to prove the imbalance of a build because it totally misses the mark. That's nothing else than a bronze player demanding nerfs and trying to prove that with a video full of misplays.

[Tayga.3192]

@KrHome.1920 said:snip

I just want all passives to be 300s. Also necro should get LF generation nerfs.

Give it active defenses for all I care, but that build is unskilled passive zzzzzzz right now.

And yes I was bronze at some point (with decay).

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:3 top players (2 dps 1 bruiser) vs 1 necro, takes 30 seconds to kill from 75% health with coordinated bursts. Starts at 0:30Now imagine in ranked where you can't coordinate this well with 2 other guys.Thanks for the proof you are just bad at the game (I am referring to our discussion in the other necro thread), when you think these players are good. Buttonmashing and ignoring your target's actions has nothing to do with skill. These kind of players suffer after the balance patch. That's no breaking news. These guys wouldn't even be able to remove a breakbar in pve.

That's really funny/critical levels of irony

@Tayga.3192 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:snip

I just want all passives to be 300s. Also necro should get LF generation nerfs.

Give it active defenses for all I care, but that build is unskilled passive zzzzzzz right now.

That would require a class redesign just to justify a trait being made similar to other traits for an arbitrary reason. Nerfing something just to make it uniform on paper without addressing how that class plays is not what balancing is about.

[Tayga.3192]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:That would require a class redesign just to justify a trait being made similar to other traits for an arbitrary reason. Nerfing something just to make it uniform on paper without addressing how that class plays is not what balancing is about.

IMO it just needs 2 spectral skills rework, wells rework and some trait changes. It is not about being meta or not.

This is also not really about US, It's not even that good of a trait anyway.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:That would require a class redesign just to justify a trait being made similar to other traits for an arbitrary reason. Nerfing something just to make it uniform on paper without addressing how that class plays is not what balancing is about.

IMO it just needs 2 spectral skills rework, wells rework and some trait changes. It is not about being meta or not.

This is also not really about US, It's not even that good of a trait anyway.

If you say they need a rework let's hear your ideas