Impending DH nerfs?

[mrauls.6519]

I'm all for class balancing.. and It seems DH has one of the highest win rates. I am SURPRISED. I'm not even sure how DH can get nerfed, but I pray it's still viable. Please be careful about how this is executed. I'm still shocked to hear the word DH and nerf together in the same sentence. I know I'm biased, but compared to Necro and Ranger, it's pretty balanced

[Sigmoid.7082]

You must have missed all the "high win rate isn't really indicative of something needing a nerf or not"

[zoopop.5630]

@"mrauls.6519" said:I'm all for class balancing.. and It seems DH has one of the highest win rates. I am SURPRISED. I'm not even sure how DH can get nerfed, but I pray it's still viable. Please be careful about how this is executed. I'm still shocked to hear the word DH and nerf together in the same sentence. I know I'm biased, but compared to Necro and Ranger, it's pretty balanced

?? nerfs?? what's going on

[Tayga.3192]

@zoopop.5630 said:?? nerfs?? what's going on

CMC said DH, tempest and core ranger have very high winrates. To be honest, contrary to popular belief, DH was pretty good except for LB3. IDK what to nerf on it though.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@zoopop.5630 said:

@"mrauls.6519" said:I'm all for class balancing.. and It seems DH has one of the highest win rates. I am SURPRISED. I'm not even sure how DH can get nerfed, but I pray it's still viable. Please be careful about how this is executed. I'm still shocked to hear the word DH and nerf together in the same sentence. I know I'm biased, but compared to Necro and Ranger, it's pretty balanced

?? nerfs?? what's going on

Basically in the stream with CMC someone asked the question which was pretty much do you balance on win rate. He said it's one of the things we look at , followed by if we solely balanced in win rate DH would be getting a nerf as it has one of the highest win rates in rank, even when filtered by tier. OP is hearing very selective things and drawing some weird conclusions and gone full panic defensive mode.

[mrauls.6519]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:?? nerfs?? what's going on

CMC said DH, tempest and core ranger have very high winrates. To be honest, contrary to popular belief, DH was pretty good except for LB3. IDK what to nerf on it though.

That's the thing. It has sustained DPS, burst when modifiers are up, survivability... but it's not over the top

[DanAlcedo.3281]

@zoopop.5630 said:

@"mrauls.6519" said:I'm all for class balancing.. and It seems DH has one of the highest win rates. I am SURPRISED. I'm not even sure how DH can get nerfed, but I pray it's still viable. Please be careful about how this is executed. I'm still shocked to hear the word DH and nerf together in the same sentence. I know I'm biased, but compared to Necro and Ranger, it's pretty balanced

?? nerfs?? what's going on

Imagine playing PvP and not watching MightyTeapots stream with CmC the PvP/WvW Balance Dev as a guest.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

They need to leave DH alone. It's current viability is completely circumstantial due to how the meta shaped around it:

1. Low grade condi spam became a thing again = DH is good vs condi, all guardians really.
2. DP Thief became a power player again = DH completely counters every Thief build so it is good to neutralize Thief side node play.
3. Everyone tried to run slow sustain things that get caught easily in DH traps = of course this will enhance DH viability.
4. Stab access/uptime and even stun breaks available took a huge dive intra-class wide = DH CCs matter, especially F1 pull.
5. And then there are a handful of other factors that aren't quite as impacting as the above 4. As a close 5th, I'd point out how all damage was nerfed pretty hard, so that sort of gives DH an actual health pool again to do its thing.

DH doesn't need nerfs. The meta just so happened to situate itself so that DH works again for the first time in years. This could change REALLY FAST with tweaks to things that naturally counter DH, and then DH would be right back struggling again like it was before, even though no nerfs were tossed towards it at all.

[mrauls.6519]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:

@"mrauls.6519" said:I'm all for class balancing.. and It seems DH has one of the highest win rates. I am SURPRISED. I'm not even sure how DH can get nerfed, but I pray it's still viable. Please be careful about how this is executed. I'm still shocked to hear the word DH and nerf together in the same sentence. I know I'm biased, but compared to Necro and Ranger, it's pretty balanced

?? nerfs?? what's going on

Basically in the stream with CMC someone asked the question which was pretty much do you balance on win rate. He said it's one of the things we look at , followed by if we solely balanced in win rate DH would be getting a nerf as it has one of the highest win rates in rank, even when filtered by tier. OP is hearing very selective things and drawing some weird conclusions.

Maybe I was too shocked to process what he said correctly... I even had people whispering me saying nerfs incoming

[Tayga.3192]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:for the first time in years.

I love how romantic this statement sounds and how many people use it.

ps: balance has nothing to do with "past", it's all about present and future.

[mrauls.6519]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:They need to leave DH alone. It's current viability is completely circumstantial due to how the meta shaped around it:

1. Low grade condi spam became a thing again = DH is good vs condi, all guardians really.
2. DP Thief became a power player again = DH completely counters every Thief build so it is good to neutralize Thief side node play.
3. Everyone tried to run slow sustain things that get caught easily in DH traps = of course this will enhance DH viability.
4. Stab access/uptime and even stun breaks available took a huge dive intra-class wide = DH CCs matter, especially F1 pull.
5. And then there are a handful of other factors that aren't quite as impacting as the above 4.

DH doesn't need nerfs. The meta just so happened to situate itself so that DH works again for the first time in years.

Thank you

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:They need to leave DH alone. It's current viability is completely circumstantial due to how the meta shaped around it:

1. Low grade condi spam became a thing again = DH is good vs condi, all guardians really.
2. DP Thief became a power player again = DH completely counters every Thief build so it is good to neutralize Thief side node play.
3. Everyone tried to run slow sustain things that get caught easily in DH traps = of course this will enhance DH viability.
4. Stab access/uptime and even stun breaks available took a huge dive intra-class wide = DH CCs matter, especially F1 pull.
5. And then there are a handful of other factors that aren't quite as impacting as the above 4.

DH doesn't need nerfs. The meta just so happened to situate itself so that DH works again for the first time in years. This could change REALLY FAST with tweaks to things that naturally counter DH, and then DH would be right back struggling again like it was before, even though no nerfs were tossed towards it at all.

Again he never said it was going to get nerfed.

All this goes to show is that1) people don't listen2) win rate isn't based solely of how strong a class is but where it can sit in the meta. Something can be balanced but have a high win rate by being a counter pick to popular builds. But...people should have already known this.3) what people are complaining about on the forum isn't really indicative of what's happening in game. But we knew that one too.

[Kuma.1503]

I can't think of a single time that I died to a DH and thought "Wow, that was so broken".

Usually what pops through my mind is "Did I really just let him land LB5 on me? Hello? Brain? Work with me here". `

[Fueki.4753]

What would you even nerf in DH?The Bow? It's already beyond useless in PvP.Traps? Nerf them any more and they'll be completely useless.

[meri.9187]

No reason to nerf DH, the OP of this thread is like the only good one on NA anyway LOL

[Dantheman.3589]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

2. DP Thief became a power player again = DH completely counters every Thief build so it is good to neutralize Thief side node play.

S/d actually does super well against dh rn and actually has been that way for a few seasons as long as they take dash. Though now it’s better as sd is the best weapon set rn, though u can argue dh as a dp counter especially with ppl playing SA and/or Shadow portal.

[Leonidrex.5649]

looking at numbers alone tells us nothing honestly.it needs to be looked at from a broader perspective, like playrate, and how many games do people that play X spec have on it etc etc.Ill give you lads some insight on league of legend balancing that demonstrates it nicely.There were plenty of champions that had about 60% winrate ( op picks had 51-53% winrates ) that didnt get nerfed becouse only people that actually played them ( 0,5%pickrate ) were crazy fans of the champions and had 1k+ games on them, meanwhile OP picks were floated to and their winrate were dropped to 51-53% due to inability to play them properly, and thus much stronger champion had much lower winrate.Same principles apply here, if DH has low pickrate and only people that play it are maining it then ofc it will have better winrate then lets say necro that randoms pick just becouse its broken rn.

[Tharan.9085]

@Fueki.4753 said:What would you even nerf in DH?The Bow? It's already beyond useless in PvP.Traps? Nerf them any more and they'll be completely useless.

Bow is good, traps are strong, stop crying

[otto.5684]

@"Sigmoid.7082" said:You must have missed all the "high win rate isn't really indicative of something needing a nerf or not"

This reminds me in another game, where devs picked few builds that no one plays and said: “they have higher win rate than average.” Then the player base challenged them that cuz these builds are bad only most dedicated players play them, as a reault they are conflating player skill with build viability. After a bit the devs conceded that there initial analysis was incorrect.

Again from another game, the devs said straight out that the win rates for a build alone does not mean much. Can actually be counter productive, cuz over performing builds tend to attract rollers and unskilled players, which could drive the average down. You have to consider:

That if the build is strong it would have large participation by the player base. I currently see 4-6 necros every game. I wonder why.

You have to look at the winning compositions. Normally the top 20 winning composition. If you see a build popping up too much, it probably is over performing and is the reason why most winning compositions use it.

How often do you see DH? How often do you see DH in AT? How many P3 plus players play it compared to other builds? How many Times does DH show in the most winning compositions?

[storm.3120]

@Tharan.9085 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:What would you even nerf in DH?The Bow? It's already beyond useless in PvP.Traps? Nerf them any more and they'll be completely useless.

Bow is good, traps are strong, stop cryingBow 2 is extremely good, 1500 range lol xD.Bow3 is trash tho...Burn DH is a thing? F1 with buffed GM trait is mega cancerous, 10s reveal and cosntant burns.Fought some on core ranger, wasnt that easy. Seen Sukaya getting cucked by burn dh on his holo :joy:

[storm.3120]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"zoopop.5630" said:?? nerfs?? what's going on

CMC said DH, tempest and core ranger have very high winrates. To be honest, contrary to popular belief, DH was pretty good except for LB3. IDK what to nerf on it though.

Fix the bug that give them aegis every time they get CC'd?

[Ragnar.4257]

It's amazing how someone can listen to the sentence "we don't just balance based on win-rate because, for example, DH has a very high win-rate but isn't a problem" and can understand from it "WE GONNA NERF DH SO HARD".

This is why the world is a mess.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:looking at numbers alone tells us nothing honestly.it needs to be looked at from a broader perspective, like playrate, and how many games do people that play X spec have on it etc etc.Ill give you lads some insight on league of legend balancing that demonstrates it nicely.There were plenty of champions that had about 60% winrate ( op picks had 51-53% winrates ) that didnt get nerfed becouse only people that actually played them ( 0,5%pickrate ) were crazy fans of the champions and had 1k+ games on them, meanwhile OP picks were floated to and their winrate were dropped to 51-53% due to inability to play them properly, and thus much stronger champion had much lower winrate.Same principles apply here, if DH has low pickrate and only people that play it are maining it then ofc it will have better winrate then lets say necro that randoms pick just becouse its broken rn.

Let me explain exactly why a bunch of DHs showed up this season:

1. New legendary trinket appears for pve eyes
2. Everyone in pve mains Power DH

Wallah

[otto.5684]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:looking at numbers alone tells us nothing honestly.it needs to be looked at from a broader perspective, like playrate, and how many games do people that play X spec have on it etc etc.Ill give you lads some insight on league of legend balancing that demonstrates it nicely.There were plenty of champions that had about 60% winrate ( op picks had 51-53% winrates ) that didnt get nerfed becouse only people that actually played them ( 0,5%pickrate ) were crazy fans of the champions and had 1k+ games on them, meanwhile OP picks were floated to and their winrate were dropped to 51-53% due to inability to play them properly, and thus much stronger champion had much lower winrate.Same principles apply here, if DH has low pickrate and only people that play it are maining it then ofc it will have better winrate then lets say necro that randoms pick just becouse its broken rn.

Let me explain exactly why a bunch of DHs showed up this season:

1. New legendary trinket appears for pve eyes
2. Everyone in pve mains Power DH

Wallah

Last time I saw a DH was like 15 games ago,When I played. It’s play rate has most definitely dropped compared to pre March patch.

[Waffler.1257]

I'm not sure why Anet would base balancing decisions on win rates at all as they mean essentially nothing due to the game automatically balancing professions between teams . As an example, since I started playing PvP again there are a ton of necros, almost every game I've played so far seems to have 2 per team which would indicate that maybe they are over-tuned and in need of a nerf. However, given that winning and losing are mutually exclusive, necros would have an average 50% win rate in this scenario since there are an equal number of them on each team. A high win rate for any profession essentially means that it isn't played very much, thus you are only likely to see one per game, and the players who do tend to play it are on average able to carry games, most likely through better rotational knowledge.