Glad to see the same professions are still Meta (Fix mesmers!)

[Firebeard.1746]

I mean why would we ever want Mesmers doing anything useful? The 1 dodge thing? Seriously? I also love that enemy team members can literally stand in chaos storm and it doesn't burn them at all! lol! Mesmer literally has no viable PVP elite spec. Honestly ever since the changes to phantasm, the class has felt incomplete by far. What makes mesmer difficult to balance in PVP is clones. In any sort of AOE situation, they usually just die and then your main mechanic (shatter) doesn't do much. what a joke. Then, if you're 1v1, you confuse the crap out of people and it's like you had 3 meat shields. Though that's not 100% true: Skilled players still knew how to identify the real mesmer or AOE the clones down, but it did make the class feel strong 1v1 most of the time.

At this point, I think the WHOLE balance team (not just PVP) should consider making clones a true resource instead of a meat shield that dies when your target does (and let us actually dodge twice): They are no longer meat shields. They are not targetable, they persist after your target dies. There are there for shatter and decoration only. Then, completely change phantasm skills: They have an instant effect (damage, defense, whatever makes sense as replacement) and as a side effect generate a clone. Also, rebalance the other skills to put Mesmers on par in terms of damage/defense/sustain when specced for it like other classes. There are plenty of situations where I feel like my mesmer, in both PVE and PVP is outright ineffective when compared to other professions I've started learning because it just keeps getting recursively gutted and not given anything in return.

This would allow Chronos in PVE to effectively use shatters to sustain boons (or potentially do other things with shatter depending on build), open world PVE wouldn't be half as clunky losing your core class resource between fights (or every time in any boss meta), and could allow for balance of the class in PVP against other classes. Because right now, the balance team is so overwhelmed by the class mechanics, their only solution is to make the class wholly ineffective. The removal of chronomancer's ability to shatter without clones effectively destroyed all PVP specs that mesmer were running.

I guess i'm slightly happy Warrior isn't meta any more, and tbh, before I took my last break I was running a different prof than what I would prefer to be my main in PVP, but am largely disappointed this balance team doesn't know how to balance. Revenants still seem as ridiculous as before.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

@Firebeard.1746 said:They are not targetable, they persist after your target dies. There are there for decoration only. Then, completely change phantasm skills: They have an instant effect (damage, defense, whatever makes sense as replacement) and as a side effect generate a clone.

So basically you wanna rip mesmer's identity. No thanks.it' perfectly possible to balance them with the current clone mechanics, the balance team just doesn't want to.

[Orthonen.9470]

Mesmers are still crazy strong against pretty much everyone including warriors. Maybe you not doing something right.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

We are almost at the point people want mesmer to be . Deleted.

[Tayga.3192]

@Aridon.8362 said:Mesmers are still crazy strong against pretty much everyone including warriors. Maybe you not doing something right.

Mesmer is only good for portal in ATs (with Discord)

Otherwise in ranked rev>mesmer=thief. Why did Anet want mesmer to get a roaming role after years of being a sidenoder, I don't know.

[Ghostof Luzifer.6159]

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiABw+drlRwCZXMFmJOuWvvWA-zZoOjMlC9qCc8A here play this as a roamer (ie avoid 1v1 and even fights) and you can easily get to plat with it.Why did Anet want mesmer to get a roaming role after years of being a sidenoder, I don't know.It was a roamer in core for years. So why not? Now you have something new to experience. New content :+1:

[Widmo.3186]

@Firebeard.1746 said:I mean why would we ever want Mesmers doing anything useful? The 1 dodge thing? Seriously?

I love how we dont even use Mirage word anymore. Mesmer = Mirage, core and chrono dont exist.

[dikkejonko.5803]

i can't beat good mesmers :(

[bravan.3876]

The Teapot VoD was cringe as hell when it comes to Mesmer balance. CmC was not even able to say a single word to the nonsense mess they did to both Mesmer elites. He didn't answer a single question about Mesmer balance and didn't react at all to Teapot saying that Mesmer got kind of butchered (even in WvW only a 2 skill bot). The only Mesmer relevant information was a statement not even directed to Mesmer, that they mainly try to make the one playstyle work they had in mind while creating the spec. That explains why neither Powershatterchrono nor Powermirage get any attention and no one cares when those (more healthy and better designed playstyles) get totally up due to balancing out the main playstyle they see in their (limited) visions. Means they only care for Mirage as a condispam spec, what is ironical because as i descripted the power ambushes are way better designed. Anet doesn't make sense at all when it comes to Mesmer. Because just reworking condi ambushes would have solved all issues from Condimirage way better than the one dodge change and that even without overkilling powerplaystyle as a spin of and without contradicting basic and elite mechanics and deleting skill cieling/tactical deepness/ mechanical complexity and without making the whole spec even more passive and dodgespammy on cd. Just as the IP deletion and the f4 deletion are completely nonsense on Chrono.

[pninak.1069]

yea I think the opposite is true. mesmers are in need of a buff.

[Arheundel.6451]

@"pninak.1069" said:yea I think the opposite is true. mesmers are in need of a buff.

No they don't....mesmers for the first time in 5 years have to work for their kills...for the past 5 years every average Joe could jump on mesmer and become a duellist god, many with time started to actually believe to be the hottest thing around. Dunno how many times in the past I would duel some clowns and win easy.....only for these living jokes to re-login on their condi mesmer and become 1v1 pro like that.

Blur into distortion into stealth into distortion into dodge into stealth into blur again......a massive uncounterable defensive rotation that would make even the worst player out there look like a god; all those dodges also come with their perks because...why not?! and so we have clones cannon fodder ....reflection..yup...

80% of current mesmer population are just some FOTM rerollers who jumped on the class after Hot launch thx to chrono bunker BS, chrono condi burst then PoF mirage etc etc, they never learnt to actually play the class and all its nuances.

You can easily tell the difference between core mesmers from launch and staff clone ambush campers ( vast majority of which just spend their time on the forum asking for buffs), the latter run quickly out of steam and start crying once their "invincible" strategy fails, no more able to let their clones do all the works ( funny the same people then complain about ranger saying how pet does all the dmg..amusing) while they just staff 2/stealth/hide like champs and climb like hell.

No more cocky condi champs running and laughing at you in wvw it seems...good riddance

[Tayga.3192]

@"Arheundel.6451" among all "controversial" stuff you said, this one is very funny:

for the first time in 5 years

[bravan.3876]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"pninak.1069" said:yea I think the opposite is true. mesmers are in need of a buff.

No they don't....

mesmers for the first time in 5 years

have to work for their kills...for the past 5 years every average Joe could jump on mesmer and become a duellist god, many with time started to actually believe to be the hottest thing around. Dunno how many times in the past I would duel some clowns and win easy.....only for these living jokes to re-login on their

condi mesmer

and become 1v1 pro like that.

Blur into distortion into stealth into distortion into dodge into stealth into blur again......

a massive uncounterable defensive rotation

that would make even the worst player out there look like a god; all those dodges also come with their perks because...why not?! and so we have clones cannon fodder ....reflection..yup...

80% of current mesmer population are just some FOTM rerollers who jumped on the class after Hot launch thx to chrono bunker BS, chrono condi burst then PoF mirage etc etc, they never learnt to actually play the class and all its nuances.

You can easily tell the difference between core mesmers from launch and staff clone ambush campers ( vast majority of which just spend their time on the forum asking for buffs), the latter run quickly out of steam and start crying once their "invincible" strategy fails, no more able to let their clones do all the works ( funny the same people then complain about ranger saying how pet does all the dmg..amusing) while they just staff 2/stealth/hide like champs and climb like hell.

No more cocky condi champs running and laughing at you in wvw it seems...

good riddance

You get that this change didn't solve any no skill issue of Condi Ih Mirage at all? Even made the whole traitline even more passive and dodge spammy on cd? You realize that even pre patch Mirage got outdodged by most other classes? There is not a single claim right in your post.

The only reason the new Condibuild needs more skill is because it uses sword what has a better designed ambush than any condi ambush, that it uses portal for more roational skill ceiling, that it is not a side noder but a roaming +1 build for even more roational skill ceiling and that it doesn't use passive sustain and mistake friendly Chaosline in addition what had also op synergy to Mirage traits in addition. And last but not least because the Condibuild avoids to use the overnerfed IH/ ambush mechanic completely and just switched to a similar passive trait just with more defensive orientation (EM). With other words Anet did what they always do: Instead of a rework into something more skilled and less toxic but still useful, they just made the problematic stuff unusable by overnerfs. GG!

You also do not consider how this overnerf is not affecting only Condimirage without even solving the issues of Condi-IH Mirage based on bad designed condi ambushes, but also affects high skilled, active and not op Powermriage builds, now even more obsolete than before.

If your goal is to get a more skilled, less noobfriedly and less op Condimirage than the one dodge change is the worst thing to vote for. It actually kills skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity from the traitline (just as from the general dodge management), while not even solving the underlying root problems of IH with bad designed condi ambushes, but for that just overnerfs the ambush mechanic as a whole, dumbes it down and overkills power playstyle as a spin off. It is like quad nonsense. Anet did a very very poor job here, actually cringe how bad it is and how much cluelessness and lack of class and gameunderstanding and -knowledge it shows from the Anet ppl did that change and from every player agreeing to that nonsense.

Funny is, as far as i heard in WvW Condimirage is still broken and even more dodge spammy now to not waste endurance reggen. They have broken gear stats with high sustain with still high condi dmg, a lot of endurance reggen from unnerfed energy sigil, stamina sigil and dodge food. And the PvP condi build simply avoids the overnerfed IH mechanic and switched to the other mostly passive trait (EM). Big rofl

[Roarshack.4902]

For starters, I am ranked Top 100 in the current season as a condi Mirage.

A lot of what @Arheundel.6451 has merit, lots of players play FOTM because it will carry them and condi mirage pre-patch was a perfect go to choice. Now after the patch, lots of those players are complaining. That being said, the current state of mesmer is far from ideal. Most other classes are simply better, with certain 1v1 match-ups being nearly impossible to win. However, mesmer still shines as +1 class. You can easily jump into a fight to help down players quickly. This meta really forces mesmers to choose their fights carefully, gone are the days of us killing everything with ease. Play to the classes strength and you will be successful, ignore your strengths and you'll die miserably.

I hope to see some buffs, I think IH could still be viable if it were reworked into buffing the Mirage damage with every additional clone instead of having the clone do the damage. The bulk of mesmer/mirage defense comes from being hard to find and pin down, this specifically punishes shatters since the current shatters are lack luster. It should be a better trade off.

Mesmer is far from great, but good players will still make it work and shit players will always complain.

[pninak.1069]

yea IH and chronophantasma were never the problems to begin with. most dmg from IH comes from staff/scepter ambushes. and people tend ignore the elephant int he room. why do you let the mesmer run lose and run into its mirrors if you got cc skills to prevent that?

[Zenix.6198]

@pninak.1069 said:yea IH and chronophantasma were never the problems to begin with. most dmg from IH comes from staff/scepter ambushes. and people tend ignore the elephant int he room. why do you let the mesmer run lose and run into its mirrors if you got cc skills to prevent that?

What?First, saying that abmushes are an issue but IH isn't, doesn't make any sense at all.And now that mirage is far more dependent on their shatters again, it all miraculously isn't oppressive any more.IH very much was the issue and would stay a dead trait forever if it was up to me.

Shatter-playstyle is way more skillful than any of that IH-spamfest ever was and good mesmers can still pull it off.

[viquing.8254]

@Arheundel.6451 said :No they don't....mesmers for the first time in 5 years have to work for their killsThanks for the laugh.To add to @bravan.3876 explanation (even if as usual he talk about skill...) : Clearly 5 seasons over 21 in EU where you see more than 5 mes top 50 make every mes carried by builds and insanely op.Hopefully I din't write nerf post on other class each time there were more represented on PvP because I certainly have some materials.

@Roarshack.4902 said :Mesmer is far from great, but good players will still make it work and kitten players will always complain.Past prove that if mesmers never complain about nerf, it continue higher and even delete main mechanics. So yeah it's nice to have counter weight view against every plebs who whine on the forum.

@pninak.1069 said :yea IH and chronophantasma were never the problems to begin with. most dmg from IH comes from staff/scepter ambushes. and people tend ignore the elephant int he room. why do you let the mesmer run lose and run into its mirrors if you got cc skills to prevent that?@Zenix.6198 said:First, saying that abmushes are an issue but IH isn't, doesn't make any sense at all.And now that mirage is far more dependent on their shatters again, it all miraculously isn't oppressive any more.IH very much was the issue and would stay a dead trait forever if it was up to me.Not really, since august 2019, most damage start to came from clones auto thanks to auto condi + sharper images. And 3 december 2019 patch finalise this gameplay : IH was mainly used to save the clones from AOE to let them autoing.Since 3 december, IH does only 30% more damage than clone auto which is clearly why you didn't burn staff ambush offensively for exemple (just some scepter time to time.).Since this date the main purpose of IH in condi build is to keep the clones alive. (Which was kind of boring as gameplay.).

[bravan.3876]

@Zenix.6198 said:

@pninak.1069 said:yea IH and chronophantasma were never the problems to begin with. most dmg from IH comes from staff/scepter ambushes. and people tend ignore the elephant int he room. why do you let the mesmer run lose and run into its mirrors if you got cc skills to prevent that?

What?First, saying that abmushes are an issue but IH isn't, doesn't make any sense at all.And now that mirage is far more dependent on their shatters again, it all miraculously isn't oppressive any more.IH very much was the issue and would stay a dead trait forever if it was up to me.

Shatter-playstyle is way more skillful than any of that IH-spamfest ever was and good mesmers can still pull it off.

Sry @viquing.8254 i am rly too burned out to explain to every single person jumping in the forum for some clueless claims and with that starting at zero with explaining why IH never was the issue and can be an even very active and skillful trait when ambushes are designed well. Means ofc the ambush design from condi ambushes were the problem and not IH itself. And Mirage should be balanced by fine adjusting (or if needed by reworking) ambushes (from Mesmers itself and from clones). The current one dodge change just did the same to IH/ambush mechanic what they did before to EM for a long time: overnerfing it into uselessness without solving the balance issues at the roots at all.

Reworking condi ambushes to be way less about pure dmg only and for that more about effects/ utilities the player can active and tactically work with to outplay opponents and also combo them together with shatters/weaponskills and which need to be timed differently from pure defensive dodge to time them well in a tactical matter would have solved all issues way better wihtout just overnerfing and contradicting the Mirage mechanic and the general dodge mechanic based on at least 2 dodges for mindful and less spammy on cd dodge management, without deleting skill ceiling (by making the IH/ambush mechanic more passive), tactical deepness and mechanical complexity from the traitline and without overkilling and dumbing down not op and skillful power builds as a spin off for no good reason.

With only one dodge a Mirage can't even use a dodge offensive only for the purpose of hitting his own or a clones ambush, because the dodge ressource is so hard overnerfed that at least more squishy builds are a freekill after doing that. Means every active and tactical and for that skillful purpose/use of the IH/ambush mechanic is impossible most of the time now. Ambushes become just a passive side effect from pure defensive dodging and the Mirage can just hope that the time he needs to evade an attack (or needs to spam a dodge to avoid endurance reggen waste) is also a good time for an ambush use. Well timed offensive dodge only for a tactical ambush use are not possible. Stupid as hell and an insane cringe showcast of lack in class and game knowledge/ understanding and a poor low effort way of covering balance issues without solving them.

[viquing.8254]

PS : I just rembered when at the very beginning (prably during beta because it wasn't on the wiki.), scepter amush does a little totally useless backward move :)

[Ragnar.4257]

@viquing.8254 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said :No they don't....mesmers for the first time in 5 years have to work for their killsThanks for the laugh.To add to @"bravan.3876" explanation (even if as usual he talk about skill...) :

Clearly 5 seasons over 21

in EU where you see more than 5 mes top 50 make every mes carried by builds and insanely op.

Given that there are 9 professions, would you expect to see much more than 5 in the top 50?

"Only 5 in the top 50" doesn't sound like much, until you actually stop and think about it. Having 6 would technically be over-representation.

[Tayga.3192]

@"Ragnar.4257" said:Given that there are 9 professions, would you expect to see much more than 5 in the top 50?"Only 5 in the top 50" doesn't sound like much, until you actually stop and think about it. Having 6 would technically be over-representation.

I think he means "Mesmer had 5 or more representation on only 5 seasons out of 21."

[pninak.1069]

@viquing.8254 I use scepter mostly with malicious sorcery to get clones quicker. However if what you say is true then they should buffs staff/ scepter ambushes, right? But I honestly think clones have a very low attackrate. while you get a 4 chains in they propably manage to hit one skill and it is also the one doing the minimum of the dmg. unless you got maximum number of of clones present, but that is unlikely in current scenraio, because of how fast they get killed. so to fix this they would need to reduce staff/scepter auto attacks, correct? or they nerf all condi autoattacks and buff autoattack rate of the clones to casterlevel. and then the ambushes would be more rewarding than now with IH actually being considered a GM trait.

[Tayga.3192]

@"Zenix.6198" said:What?First, saying that abmushes are an issue but IH isn't, doesn't make any sense at all.It makes sense. Ambushes should do less damage on clones and more damage on mesmer.

Shatter-playstyle is way more skillful than any of that IH-spamfest ever was and good mesmers can still pull it off.Well current mirage is basically a condi roamer. This basically makes the class feel like this: "+1 your teammate, do your damage combo, kill, leave". I guess this is more skillful than "dodge -> ambush -> dodge -> ambush".

[viquing.8254]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Ragnar.4257" said:Given that there are 9 professions, would you expect to see much more than 5 in the top 50?"Only 5 in the top 50" doesn't sound like much, until you actually stop and think about it. Having 6 would technically be over-representation.

I think he means "Mesmer had 5 or more representation on only 5 seasons out of 21."

Pretty much this, people whine against mesmers for ages but apart the differents chrono tank hypes and one condi mirage session, mesmers were far to be over-represented on EU LB.

@pninak.1069 said:@viquing.8254 I use scepter mostly with malicious sorcery to get clones quicker. However if what you say is true then they should buffs staff/ scepter ambushes, right? But I honestly think clones have a very low attackrate. while you get a 4 chains in they propably manage to hit one skill and it is also the one doing the minimum of the dmg. unless you got maximum number of of clones present, but that is unlikely in current scenraio, because of how fast they get killed. so to fix this they would need to reduce staff/scepter auto attacks, correct? or they nerf all condi autoattacks and buff autoattack rate of the clones to casterlevel. and then the ambushes would be more rewarding than now with IH actually being considered a GM trait.

Clones shouldn't apply condi on auto, it was a problem since launch and lead to the most incoherent gut on the class. (Old clone death traits, current mirage one dodge, other condi application gutted to hell.). And on top of that it create disparity between power and condi.

[Thorstienn.1642]

@viquing.8254 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Ragnar.4257" said:Given that there are 9 professions, would you expect to see much more than 5 in the top 50?"Only 5 in the top 50" doesn't sound like much, until you actually stop and think about it. Having 6 would technically be over-representation.

I think he means "Mesmer had 5 or more representation on only 5 seasons out of 21."

Pretty much this, people whine against mesmers for ages but apart the differents chrono tank hypes and one condi mirage session, mesmers were far to be over-represented on EU LB.

@pninak.1069 said:@viquing.8254 I use scepter mostly with malicious sorcery to get clones quicker. However if what you say is true then they should buffs staff/ scepter ambushes, right? But I honestly think clones have a very low attackrate. while you get a 4 chains in they propably manage to hit one skill and it is also the one doing the minimum of the dmg. unless you got maximum number of of clones present, but that is unlikely in current scenraio, because of how fast they get killed. so to fix this they would need to reduce staff/scepter auto attacks, correct? or they nerf all condi autoattacks and buff autoattack rate of the clones to casterlevel. and then the ambushes would be more rewarding than now with IH actually being considered a GM trait.

Clones shouldn't apply condi on auto, it was a problem since launch and lead to the most incoherent gut on the class. (Old clone death traits, current mirage one dodge, other condi application gutted to hell.). And on top of that it create disparity between power and condi.

How do people know what "class" topped the leaderboards? I just see names of players.