How to Fix Stealth

[Shining One.1635]

@"Virdo.1540" said:Another way to fix stealth would be

Reveals doesnt remove stealth anymore ,but lets the player see invisible enemies.The ability already exists in the game. It's called Veil Sight. ArenaNet just needs to find a reasonably balanced way to give it to players.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Shining One.1635 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:Another way to fix stealth would be

Reveals doesnt remove stealth anymore ,but lets the player see invisible enemies.The ability already exists in the game. It's called

Veil Sight

. ArenaNet just needs to find a reasonably balanced way to give it to players.

Change all the skills that reveal players to veil sight instead?

[Sobx.1758]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Shining One.1635 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:Another way to fix stealth would be

Reveals doesnt remove stealth anymore ,but lets the player see invisible enemies.The ability already exists in the game. It's called

Veil Sight

. ArenaNet just needs to find a reasonably balanced way to give it to players.

Change all the skills that reveal players to veil sight instead?

Then it's just a stealth removal, so what's the point?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Shining One.1635 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:Another way to fix stealth would be

Reveals doesnt remove stealth anymore ,but lets the player see invisible enemies.The ability already exists in the game. It's called

Veil Sight

. ArenaNet just needs to find a reasonably balanced way to give it to players.

Change all the skills that reveal players to veil sight instead?

Then it's just a stealth removal, so what's the point?

They don't know they are visible then whereas they know if they are revealed. Probably too strong which would be why it didn't leave the Queen's gauntlet.

[Taobella.6597]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Make it not stack in duration and instead function like super speed.

Remove the Revealed removal from Shadow Meld in WvW/PvP, this is not a swipe at DE's its just that this counter mechanic should have never been introduced in the first place.

i can not agree with this suggestion. this change could break thief if you remove reveal time thief could backstab a player 8 times in a row.

[Sobx.1758]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Shining One.1635 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:Another way to fix stealth would be

Reveals doesnt remove stealth anymore ,but lets the player see invisible enemies.The ability already exists in the game. It's called

Veil Sight

. ArenaNet just needs to find a reasonably balanced way to give it to players.

Change all the skills that reveal players to veil sight instead?

Then it's just a stealth removal, so what's the point?

They don't know they are visible then whereas they know if they are revealed. Probably too strong which would be why it didn't leave the Queen's gauntlet.

So it's stronger than the stealth removal? I don't see how that answer made it any better lmao.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Taobella.6597 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Make it not stack in duration and instead function like super speed.

Remove the Revealed removal from Shadow Meld in WvW/PvP, this is not a swipe at DE's its just that this counter mechanic should have never been introduced in the first place.

i can not agree with this suggestion. this change could break thief if you remove reveal time thief could backstab a player 8 times in a row.

I think you need to re-read what was written.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Shining One.1635 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:Another way to fix stealth would be

Reveals doesnt remove stealth anymore ,but lets the player see invisible enemies.The ability already exists in the game. It's called

Veil Sight

. ArenaNet just needs to find a reasonably balanced way to give it to players.

Change all the skills that reveal players to veil sight instead?

Then it's just a stealth removal, so what's the point?

They don't know they are visible then whereas they know if they are revealed. Probably too strong which would be why it didn't leave the Queen's gauntlet.

So it's stronger than the stealth removal? I don't see how that answer made it any better lmao.

I did say that would be too strong. Veil Sight must have been a test by Anet as a stealth counter and proved too strong.

[Taobella.6597]

@Taobella.6597 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Make it not stack in duration and instead function like super speed.

Remove the Revealed removal from Shadow Meld in WvW/PvP, this is not a swipe at DE's its just that this counter mechanic should have never been introduced in the first place.

i can not agree with this suggestion. this change could break thief if you remove reveal time thief could backstab a player 8 times in a row.

oh my mistask i thought you meant in general. that elite is fine. because of CD on stealth skills. if a thief using it as s escape mech that fair.

[Solanum.6983]

My issue with stealth isn't the stacking but the amount of traits that promote attacking out of it. With a certain build you can stealth and down someone before they have a chance to react, It's cheap and not fun to play against.I feel like stacking stealth should be allowed, Disengaging from fights is what makes thief worth it for me and if your going to devote so many skills to just stealth away then it's fair imo.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:No stealth games are not in question. There is no stealth balance there.And really what we talk about here is invisibility, stealth is usually a term for states where the enemy is less visible, can't be targeted or silent. I don't know where all these no restriction stealth games are because I don't know any.

There are no multiplayer stealth games. And yes, thats what stealth means. Its invisibility. Its synonymous. Anyway, just about every MOBA, multiple shooters, several MMOs, even one or two fighting games

all

have that.

Anyway I am not even saying it is unbalanced, it's just bad and annoying design. And I see posts how there are many games like this one regarding stealth but I never encountered one.

Then youve just not played many multiplayer games. I cant think of many that

dont

have it, and theyre all shooters. That might eventually get it anyway.

Name the gamesIn wow breaks from every aoes and shots or having dotsRift the sameEnder Scroll sameHeroes of the storm , the newest game by Blizzard , if you are in mdium range you can see him

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Solanum.6983 said:My issue with stealth isn't the stacking but the amount of traits that promote attacking out of it. With a certain build you can stealth and down someone before they have a chance to react, It's cheap and not fun to play against.I feel like stacking stealth should be allowed, Disengaging from fights is what makes thief worth it for me and if your going to devote so many skills to just stealth away then it's fair imo.

That is actually a fair consideration. What would you do to reduce/tone down the traits that you feel cause stealth to overperform?

[Straegen.2938]

There are several ways to fix stealth. Long reveals post attack, inability to stack stealth or cut the character speed in half while stealthed are my favorites.

[Shroud.2307]

I feel a lot of the suggestions here are very shallow in thought. Most would require a complete rework to Stealth or at least a massive overhaul to Thief as a class. Realistically speaking, I think Stealth is here to stay despite how poorly it was designed. There are ways to deal with the vast majority of sources that apply it and measures have been taken to further add counters as the game has progressed. I do think it is objectively bad design, but I also think ANet has done a decent job at making it more manageable even with Deadeye existing.

I don't personally have any strong feelings about it because most times I don't have much trouble with it. Still, there are times it is very obviously the reason someone wins or at least escapes regardless of how well I play to punish the player. Those times suck, but it's not something I'm so bothered by that I feel like going on a rant about like many on the forums do.

Here's a shallow thought of my own;Successive attacks after Revealing one's self will increase the duration of Revealed. Backstab -> 3 second Reveal, follow up attacks while Reveal is active will increase the duration by 1 second. Allowing it to wear off will remove this penalty.

I think that could seriously damage game play for certain builds and incentivize 1 shot builds, but I also think it would force players to manage their Stealth options more intelligently.

[UNOwen.7132]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:I feel a lot of the suggestions here are very shallow in thought. Most would require a complete rework to Stealth or at least a massive overhaul to Thief as a class. Realistically speaking, I think Stealth is here to stay despite how poorly it was designed. There are ways to deal with the vast majority of sources that apply it and measures have been taken to further add counters as the game has progressed. I do think it is objectively bad design, but I also think ANet has done a decent job at making it more manageable even with Deadeye existing.

In-combat stealth is fine design, just underpowered. Out of combat stealth, aka the "lol you got bursted down by someone you didnt even know was there" is however badly designed. Thing is, thats not that hard to fix, and it wouldnt require any kind of overhaul to thief (just give thief damage back in that case).

I don't personally have any strong feelings about it because most times I don't have much trouble with it. Still, there are times it is very obviously the reason someone wins or at least escapes regardless of how well I play to punish the player. Those times suck, but it's not something I'm so bothered by that I feel like going on a rant about like many on the forums do.

The only time stealth is the reason someone wins, is if they oneshot you out of stealth. Its never the reason someone escapes. If you punish stealth correctly, its useless. Thats why people avoid it. In-combat stealth is bad because its easily punished, and punished hard.

Here's a shallow thought of my own;Successive attacks after Revealing one's self will increase the duration of Revealed. Backstab -> 3 second Reveal, follow up attacks while Reveal is active will increase the duration by 1 second. Allowing it to wear off will remove this penalty.

This does nothing to stop out of combat stealth (which is the problem) but makes in-combat stealth even worse. Its ab ad idea.

I think that could seriously damage game play for certain builds and incentivize 1 shot builds, but I also think it would force players to manage their Stealth options more intelligently.

Nah, it just means you only use stealth to get surprise oneshots, and otherwise you never use stealth, as opposed to now where you almost never use stealth.

[Shroud.2307]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:I feel a lot of the suggestions here are very shallow in thought. Most would require a complete rework to Stealth or at least a massive overhaul to Thief as a class. Realistically speaking, I think Stealth is here to stay despite how poorly it was designed. There are ways to deal with the vast majority of sources that apply it and measures have been taken to further add counters as the game has progressed. I do think it is objectively bad design, but I also think ANet has done a decent job at making it more manageable even with Deadeye existing.

In-combat stealth is fine design, just underpowered. Out of combat stealth, aka the "lol you got bursted down by someone you didnt even know was there" is however badly designed. Thing is, thats not

that

hard to fix, and it wouldnt require any kind of overhaul to thief (just give thief damage back in that case).

I don't personally have any strong feelings about it because most times I don't have much trouble with it. Still, there are times it is very obviously the reason someone wins or at least escapes regardless of how well I play to punish the player. Those times suck, but it's not something I'm so bothered by that I feel like going on a rant about like many on the forums do.

The only time stealth is the reason someone wins, is if they oneshot you out of stealth. Its never the reason someone escapes. If you punish stealth correctly, its useless. Thats why people avoid it. In-combat stealth is bad because its easily punished, and punished

hard

.

Here's a shallow thought of my own;Successive attacks after Revealing one's self will increase the duration of Revealed. Backstab -> 3 second Reveal, follow up attacks while Reveal is active will increase the duration by 1 second. Allowing it to wear off will remove this penalty.

This does nothing to stop out of combat stealth (which is the problem) but makes in-combat stealth

even worse

. Its ab ad idea.

I think that could seriously damage game play for certain builds and incentivize 1 shot builds, but I also think it would force players to manage their Stealth options more intelligently.

Nah, it just means you only use stealth to get surprise oneshots, and otherwise you

never

use stealth, as opposed to now where you

almost

never use stealth.

So if out of combat Stealth is reworked in some way, let's say that it can't be stacked, then would that not make Stealth entirely useless both in and out of combat by your definition?

My point is that it is what it is, and for the most part it can be dealt with. People can make all the suggestions they want but ultimately one thing or another will break unless the mechanic gets a complete overhaul. I like my own idea but as you've pointed out, it wouldn't work as well as I'd like it to - and that's okay because it proves my point. I just wanted to add my two cents because this topic comes up a lot and I usually ignore it.

[UNOwen.7132]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:I feel a lot of the suggestions here are very shallow in thought. Most would require a complete rework to Stealth or at least a massive overhaul to Thief as a class. Realistically speaking, I think Stealth is here to stay despite how poorly it was designed. There are ways to deal with the vast majority of sources that apply it and measures have been taken to further add counters as the game has progressed. I do think it is objectively bad design, but I also think ANet has done a decent job at making it more manageable even with Deadeye existing.

In-combat stealth is fine design, just underpowered. Out of combat stealth, aka the "lol you got bursted down by someone you didnt even know was there" is however badly designed. Thing is, thats not

that

hard to fix, and it wouldnt require any kind of overhaul to thief (just give thief damage back in that case).

I don't personally have any strong feelings about it because most times I don't have much trouble with it. Still, there are times it is very obviously the reason someone wins or at least escapes regardless of how well I play to punish the player. Those times suck, but it's not something I'm so bothered by that I feel like going on a rant about like many on the forums do.

The only time stealth is the reason someone wins, is if they oneshot you out of stealth. Its never the reason someone escapes. If you punish stealth correctly, its useless. Thats why people avoid it. In-combat stealth is bad because its easily punished, and punished

hard

.

Here's a shallow thought of my own;Successive attacks after Revealing one's self will increase the duration of Revealed. Backstab -> 3 second Reveal, follow up attacks while Reveal is active will increase the duration by 1 second. Allowing it to wear off will remove this penalty.

This does nothing to stop out of combat stealth (which is the problem) but makes in-combat stealth

even worse

. Its ab ad idea.

I think that could seriously damage game play for certain builds and incentivize 1 shot builds, but I also think it would force players to manage their Stealth options more intelligently.

Nah, it just means you only use stealth to get surprise oneshots, and otherwise you

never

use stealth, as opposed to now where you

almost

never use stealth.

So if out of combat Stealth is reworked in some way, let's say that it can't be stacked, then would that not make Stealth entirely useless both in and out of combat by your definition?

At first, yes. Thats why I would then give in-combat stealth some buffs. Something to make it less trivially easy to punish, and more rewarding when you do go for it.

My point is that it is what it is, and for the most part it can be dealt with. People can make all the suggestions they want but ultimately one thing or another will break unless the mechanic gets a complete overhaul. I like my own idea but as you've pointed out, it wouldn't work as well as I'd like it to - and that's okay because it proves my point. I just wanted to add my two cents because this topic comes up a lot and I usually ignore it.

I mean, out of combat stealth itself cant really be dealt with. Its only fine so long as the class cant burst, but that in itself is a problem.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:I feel a lot of the suggestions here are very shallow in thought. Most would require a complete rework to Stealth or at least a massive overhaul to Thief as a class. Realistically speaking, I think Stealth is here to stay despite how poorly it was designed. There are ways to deal with the vast majority of sources that apply it and measures have been taken to further add counters as the game has progressed. I do think it is objectively bad design, but I also think ANet has done a decent job at making it more manageable even with Deadeye existing.

In-combat stealth is fine design, just underpowered. Out of combat stealth, aka the "lol you got bursted down by someone you didnt even know was there" is however badly designed. Thing is, thats not

that

hard to fix, and it wouldnt require any kind of overhaul to thief (just give thief damage back in that case).

I don't personally have any strong feelings about it because most times I don't have much trouble with it. Still, there are times it is very obviously the reason someone wins or at least escapes regardless of how well I play to punish the player. Those times suck, but it's not something I'm so bothered by that I feel like going on a rant about like many on the forums do.

The only time stealth is the reason someone wins, is if they oneshot you out of stealth. Its never the reason someone escapes. If you punish stealth correctly, its useless. Thats why people avoid it. In-combat stealth is bad because its easily punished, and punished

hard

.

Here's a shallow thought of my own;Successive attacks after Revealing one's self will increase the duration of Revealed. Backstab -> 3 second Reveal, follow up attacks while Reveal is active will increase the duration by 1 second. Allowing it to wear off will remove this penalty.

This does nothing to stop out of combat stealth (which is the problem) but makes in-combat stealth

even worse

. Its ab ad idea.

I think that could seriously damage game play for certain builds and incentivize 1 shot builds, but I also think it would force players to manage their Stealth options more intelligently.

Nah, it just means you only use stealth to get surprise oneshots, and otherwise you

never

use stealth, as opposed to now where you

almost

never use stealth.

So if out of combat Stealth is reworked in some way, let's say that it can't be stacked, then would that not make Stealth entirely useless both in and out of combat by your definition?

At first, yes. Thats why I would then give in-combat stealth some buffs. Something to make it less trivially easy to punish, and more rewarding when you do go for it.

My point is that it is what it is, and for the most part it can be dealt with. People can make all the suggestions they want but ultimately one thing or another will break unless the mechanic gets a complete overhaul. I like my own idea but as you've pointed out, it wouldn't work as well as I'd like it to - and that's okay because it proves my point. I just wanted to add my two cents because this topic comes up a lot and I usually ignore it.

I mean, out of combat stealth itself cant really be dealt with. Its only fine so long as the class cant burst, but that in itself is a problem.

So if thiefs can burst ppl in WvW with 9-13k backstab .Why should we buff stealth then ?

Look at the Teapot video , even the Devs admits at 01:46:19 admits that its too strong and the teapot the host later at 01:48:00 asks about stealt in general even it has a short duration is pretey oppresive. And they cant change it now , becucase it was made since lauchedWhy we shouldlisten to you, which doesnt like to rstealth in combat , telling us its underpowered , when the Devs + Sreamers aknowlgeghhe its prety opresive ?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I'll take eso stealth even with reveal on dots, unless it has been changed stealth after aquiring dots suppresses them so build in shadows embrace ;). Plus I'd love to just time one button press for perma stealth.

[Sobx.1758]

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:I feel a lot of the suggestions here are very shallow in thought. Most would require a complete rework to Stealth or at least a massive overhaul to Thief as a class. Realistically speaking, I think Stealth is here to stay despite how poorly it was designed. There are ways to deal with the vast majority of sources that apply it and measures have been taken to further add counters as the game has progressed. I do think it is objectively bad design, but I also think ANet has done a decent job at making it more manageable even with Deadeye existing.

In-combat stealth is fine design, just underpowered. Out of combat stealth, aka the "lol you got bursted down by someone you didnt even know was there" is however badly designed. Thing is, thats not

that

hard to fix, and it wouldnt require any kind of overhaul to thief (just give thief damage back in that case).

I don't personally have any strong feelings about it because most times I don't have much trouble with it. Still, there are times it is very obviously the reason someone wins or at least escapes regardless of how well I play to punish the player. Those times suck, but it's not something I'm so bothered by that I feel like going on a rant about like many on the forums do.

The only time stealth is the reason someone wins, is if they oneshot you out of stealth. Its never the reason someone escapes. If you punish stealth correctly, its useless. Thats why people avoid it. In-combat stealth is bad because its easily punished, and punished

hard

.

Here's a shallow thought of my own;Successive attacks after Revealing one's self will increase the duration of Revealed. Backstab -> 3 second Reveal, follow up attacks while Reveal is active will increase the duration by 1 second. Allowing it to wear off will remove this penalty.

This does nothing to stop out of combat stealth (which is the problem) but makes in-combat stealth

even worse

. Its ab ad idea.

I think that could seriously damage game play for certain builds and incentivize 1 shot builds, but I also think it would force players to manage their Stealth options more intelligently.

Nah, it just means you only use stealth to get surprise oneshots, and otherwise you

never

use stealth, as opposed to now where you

almost

never use stealth.

So if out of combat Stealth is reworked in some way, let's say that it can't be stacked, then would that not make Stealth entirely useless both in and out of combat by your definition?

At first, yes. Thats why I would then give in-combat stealth some buffs. Something to make it less trivially easy to punish, and more rewarding when you do go for it.

My point is that it is what it is, and for the most part it can be dealt with. People can make all the suggestions they want but ultimately one thing or another will break unless the mechanic gets a complete overhaul. I like my own idea but as you've pointed out, it wouldn't work as well as I'd like it to - and that's okay because it proves my point. I just wanted to add my two cents because this topic comes up a lot and I usually ignore it.

I mean, out of combat stealth itself cant really be dealt with. Its only fine so long as the class cant burst, but that in itself is a problem.

So if thiefs can burst ppl in WvW with 9-13k backstab .Why should we buff stealth then ?

Look at the Teapot video , even the Devs admits at 01:46:19 admits that its too strong and the teapot the host later at 01:48:00 asks about stealt in general even it has >a short duration is pretey oppresive.Why we shouldlisten to you, which doesnt like to rstealth in combat ?

Linking vid would be k.

[Cuks.8241]

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:No stealth games are not in question. There is no stealth balance there.And really what we talk about here is invisibility, stealth is usually a term for states where the enemy is less visible, can't be targeted or silent. I don't know where all these no restriction stealth games are because I don't know any.

There are no multiplayer stealth games. And yes, thats what stealth means. Its invisibility. Its synonymous. Anyway, just about every MOBA, multiple shooters, several MMOs, even one or two fighting games

all

have that.

Anyway I am not even saying it is unbalanced, it's just bad and annoying design. And I see posts how there are many games like this one regarding stealth but I never encountered one.

Then youve just not played many multiplayer games. I cant think of many that

dont

have it, and theyre all shooters. That might eventually get it anyway.

Name the gamesIn wow breaks from every aoes and shots or having dotsRift the sameEnder Scroll sameHeroes of the storm , the newest game by Blizzard , if you are in mdium range you can see him

Even further. In wow it is only out of combat and has reduced movement speed. You have combat clears but on very long CDs - Vanish (5 minutes I tihnk reduced to 3 when I last played). You can see stealthed player in close range and it is available on melee chars exclusively (rogue, druid in cat form). There's mage invisibility but it has a few sec channel animation (3 sec?) during which anything cancels it and very long CD (again I think it was 5 reduced to 3 by my data is old). Maybe I missed some cases since it's been many years since I played.

In Heroes they changed it that a player in stealth is seen by all quite clearly (before it was hard to see) only can't be targeted or seen on mini map. It becomes invisible only if stationary (only for ambushes).

In dota invisibility means not seen on minimap and cant be targeted, seen on the screen - silhouette. Similar to heroes.

There are some other cases I am familiar but are from fps and usually very short duration, very hard (long CD power ups) to get and still seen just harder.

And still no one has given and example of a game where stealth or better invisibility is so easy to get into and maintain as here.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:I feel a lot of the suggestions here are very shallow in thought. Most would require a complete rework to Stealth or at least a massive overhaul to Thief as a class. Realistically speaking, I think Stealth is here to stay despite how poorly it was designed. There are ways to deal with the vast majority of sources that apply it and measures have been taken to further add counters as the game has progressed. I do think it is objectively bad design, but I also think ANet has done a decent job at making it more manageable even with Deadeye existing.

In-combat stealth is fine design, just underpowered. Out of combat stealth, aka the "lol you got bursted down by someone you didnt even know was there" is however badly designed. Thing is, thats not

that

hard to fix, and it wouldnt require any kind of overhaul to thief (just give thief damage back in that case).

I don't personally have any strong feelings about it because most times I don't have much trouble with it. Still, there are times it is very obviously the reason someone wins or at least escapes regardless of how well I play to punish the player. Those times suck, but it's not something I'm so bothered by that I feel like going on a rant about like many on the forums do.

The only time stealth is the reason someone wins, is if they oneshot you out of stealth. Its never the reason someone escapes. If you punish stealth correctly, its useless. Thats why people avoid it. In-combat stealth is bad because its easily punished, and punished

hard

.

Here's a shallow thought of my own;Successive attacks after Revealing one's self will increase the duration of Revealed. Backstab -> 3 second Reveal, follow up attacks while Reveal is active will increase the duration by 1 second. Allowing it to wear off will remove this penalty.

This does nothing to stop out of combat stealth (which is the problem) but makes in-combat stealth

even worse

. Its ab ad idea.

I think that could seriously damage game play for certain builds and incentivize 1 shot builds, but I also think it would force players to manage their Stealth options more intelligently.

Nah, it just means you only use stealth to get surprise oneshots, and otherwise you

never

use stealth, as opposed to now where you

almost

never use stealth.

So if out of combat Stealth is reworked in some way, let's say that it can't be stacked, then would that not make Stealth entirely useless both in and out of combat by your definition?

At first, yes. Thats why I would then give in-combat stealth some buffs. Something to make it less trivially easy to punish, and more rewarding when you do go for it.

My point is that it is what it is, and for the most part it can be dealt with. People can make all the suggestions they want but ultimately one thing or another will break unless the mechanic gets a complete overhaul. I like my own idea but as you've pointed out, it wouldn't work as well as I'd like it to - and that's okay because it proves my point. I just wanted to add my two cents because this topic comes up a lot and I usually ignore it.

I mean, out of combat stealth itself cant really be dealt with. Its only fine so long as the class cant burst, but that in itself is a problem.

So if thiefs can burst ppl in WvW with 9-13k backstab .Why should we buff stealth then ?

They cant. Next.

Look at the Teapot video , even the Devs admits at 01:46:19 admits that its too strong and the teapot the host later at 01:48:00 asks about stealt in general even it has a short duration is pretey oppresive. And they cant change it now , becucase it was made since lauchedWhy we shouldlisten to you, which doesnt like to rstealth in combat , telling us its underpowered , when the Devs + Sreamers aknowlgeghhe its prety opresive ?

Did you think I wouldnt check your timestamps? He doesnt talk about stealth in either of those timestamps. So uh, they dont. Next.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:I feel a lot of the suggestions here are very shallow in thought. Most would require a complete rework to Stealth or at least a massive overhaul to Thief as a class. Realistically speaking, I think Stealth is here to stay despite how poorly it was designed. There are ways to deal with the vast majority of sources that apply it and measures have been taken to further add counters as the game has progressed. I do think it is objectively bad design, but I also think ANet has done a decent job at making it more manageable even with Deadeye existing.

In-combat stealth is fine design, just underpowered. Out of combat stealth, aka the "lol you got bursted down by someone you didnt even know was there" is however badly designed. Thing is, thats not

that

hard to fix, and it wouldnt require any kind of overhaul to thief (just give thief damage back in that case).

I don't personally have any strong feelings about it because most times I don't have much trouble with it. Still, there are times it is very obviously the reason someone wins or at least escapes regardless of how well I play to punish the player. Those times suck, but it's not something I'm so bothered by that I feel like going on a rant about like many on the forums do.

The only time stealth is the reason someone wins, is if they oneshot you out of stealth. Its never the reason someone escapes. If you punish stealth correctly, its useless. Thats why people avoid it. In-combat stealth is bad because its easily punished, and punished

hard

.

Here's a shallow thought of my own;Successive attacks after Revealing one's self will increase the duration of Revealed. Backstab -> 3 second Reveal, follow up attacks while Reveal is active will increase the duration by 1 second. Allowing it to wear off will remove this penalty.

This does nothing to stop out of combat stealth (which is the problem) but makes in-combat stealth

even worse

. Its ab ad idea.

I think that could seriously damage game play for certain builds and incentivize 1 shot builds, but I also think it would force players to manage their Stealth options more intelligently.

Nah, it just means you only use stealth to get surprise oneshots, and otherwise you

never

use stealth, as opposed to now where you

almost

never use stealth.

So if out of combat Stealth is reworked in some way, let's say that it can't be stacked, then would that not make Stealth entirely useless both in and out of combat by your definition?

At first, yes. Thats why I would then give in-combat stealth some buffs. Something to make it less trivially easy to punish, and more rewarding when you do go for it.

My point is that it is what it is, and for the most part it can be dealt with. People can make all the suggestions they want but ultimately one thing or another will break unless the mechanic gets a complete overhaul. I like my own idea but as you've pointed out, it wouldn't work as well as I'd like it to - and that's okay because it proves my point. I just wanted to add my two cents because this topic comes up a lot and I usually ignore it.

I mean, out of combat stealth itself cant really be dealt with. Its only fine so long as the class cant burst, but that in itself is a problem.

So if thiefs can burst ppl in WvW with 9-13k backstab .Why should we buff stealth then ?

They cant. Next.

Look at the Teapot video , even the Devs admits at 01:46:19 admits that its too strong and the teapot the host later at 01:48:00 asks about stealt in general even it has a short duration is pretey oppresive. And they cant change it now , becucase it was made since lauchedWhy we shouldlisten to you, which doesnt like to rstealth in combat , telling us its underpowered , when the Devs + Sreamers aknowlgeghhe its prety opresive ?

Did you think I wouldnt check your timestamps? He doesnt talk about stealth in

either

of those timestamps. So uh, they dont. Next.

1)

After the balance patch

2) tell me in the 01:46:19 what they dont about , rather than thief and general the stealth ?Go on i wait

[UNOwen.7132]

@Cuks.8241 said:

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:No stealth games are not in question. There is no stealth balance there.And really what we talk about here is invisibility, stealth is usually a term for states where the enemy is less visible, can't be targeted or silent. I don't know where all these no restriction stealth games are because I don't know any.

There are no multiplayer stealth games. And yes, thats what stealth means. Its invisibility. Its synonymous. Anyway, just about every MOBA, multiple shooters, several MMOs, even one or two fighting games

all

have that.

Anyway I am not even saying it is unbalanced, it's just bad and annoying design. And I see posts how there are many games like this one regarding stealth but I never encountered one.

Then youve just not played many multiplayer games. I cant think of many that

dont

have it, and theyre all shooters. That might eventually get it anyway.

Name the gamesIn wow breaks from every aoes and shots or having dotsRift the sameEnder Scroll sameHeroes of the storm , the newest game by Blizzard , if you are in mdium range you can see him

Even further. In wow it is only out of combat and has reduced movement speed. You have combat clears but on very long CDs - Vanish (5 minutes I tihnk reduced to 3 when I last played). You can see stealthed player in close range and it is available on melee chars exclusively (rogue, druid in cat form). There's mage invisibility but it has a few sec channel animation (3 sec?) during which anything cancels it and very long CD (again I think it was 5 reduced to 3 by my data is old). Maybe I missed some cases since it's been many years since I played.

Its also nearly permanent with no investment and on classes that oneshot you (or try to). Its not a good example. Thats why WoW is extremely atypical.

In Heroes they changed it that a player in stealth is seen by all quite clearly (before it was hard to see) only can't be targeted or seen on mini map. It becomes invisible only if stationary (only for ambushes).

This too has exceptions. Valeera has a form of stealth that is completely unrevealable by anything.

In dota invisibility means not seen on minimap and cant be targeted, seen on the screen - silhouette. Similar to heroes.

Uh, no. Theyre completely invisible. You cant see them at all. Its more like GW2 than Heroes. Some of them have "fade time", but a lot of them dont even have that, and even the ones that do have extremely short ones most of the time, like Weavers 0.25.

There are some other cases I am familiar but are from fps and usually very short duration, very hard (long CD power ups) to get and still seen just harder.

I cant think of any FPS where stealth cant be completely invisible. In TF2, its fully stealthed. In Planetside 2, its fully stealthed while crouchwalking.

And still no one has given and example of a game where stealth or better invisibility is so easy to get into and maintain as here.

Dota 2, League, TF2, Planetside 2, supposedly Dirty Bomb (but I cant confirm that, so take it with a grain of salt), Gigantic (RIP), Paladins, etc. etc.

[Sobx.1758]

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:I feel a lot of the suggestions here are very shallow in thought. Most would require a complete rework to Stealth or at least a massive overhaul to Thief as a class. Realistically speaking, I think Stealth is here to stay despite how poorly it was designed. There are ways to deal with the vast majority of sources that apply it and measures have been taken to further add counters as the game has progressed. I do think it is objectively bad design, but I also think ANet has done a decent job at making it more manageable even with Deadeye existing.

In-combat stealth is fine design, just underpowered. Out of combat stealth, aka the "lol you got bursted down by someone you didnt even know was there" is however badly designed. Thing is, thats not

that

hard to fix, and it wouldnt require any kind of overhaul to thief (just give thief damage back in that case).

I don't personally have any strong feelings about it because most times I don't have much trouble with it. Still, there are times it is very obviously the reason someone wins or at least escapes regardless of how well I play to punish the player. Those times suck, but it's not something I'm so bothered by that I feel like going on a rant about like many on the forums do.

The only time stealth is the reason someone wins, is if they oneshot you out of stealth. Its never the reason someone escapes. If you punish stealth correctly, its useless. Thats why people avoid it. In-combat stealth is bad because its easily punished, and punished

hard

.

Here's a shallow thought of my own;Successive attacks after Revealing one's self will increase the duration of Revealed. Backstab -> 3 second Reveal, follow up attacks while Reveal is active will increase the duration by 1 second. Allowing it to wear off will remove this penalty.

This does nothing to stop out of combat stealth (which is the problem) but makes in-combat stealth

even worse

. Its ab ad idea.

I think that could seriously damage game play for certain builds and incentivize 1 shot builds, but I also think it would force players to manage their Stealth options more intelligently.

Nah, it just means you only use stealth to get surprise oneshots, and otherwise you

never

use stealth, as opposed to now where you

almost

never use stealth.

So if out of combat Stealth is reworked in some way, let's say that it can't be stacked, then would that not make Stealth entirely useless both in and out of combat by your definition?

At first, yes. Thats why I would then give in-combat stealth some buffs. Something to make it less trivially easy to punish, and more rewarding when you do go for it.

My point is that it is what it is, and for the most part it can be dealt with. People can make all the suggestions they want but ultimately one thing or another will break unless the mechanic gets a complete overhaul. I like my own idea but as you've pointed out, it wouldn't work as well as I'd like it to - and that's okay because it proves my point. I just wanted to add my two cents because this topic comes up a lot and I usually ignore it.

I mean, out of combat stealth itself cant really be dealt with. Its only fine so long as the class cant burst, but that in itself is a problem.

So if thiefs can burst ppl in WvW with 9-13k backstab .Why should we buff stealth then ?

They cant. Next.

Look at the Teapot video , even the Devs admits at 01:46:19 admits that its too strong and the teapot the host later at 01:48:00 asks about stealt in general even it has a short duration is pretey oppresive. And they cant change it now , becucase it was made since lauchedWhy we shouldlisten to you, which doesnt like to rstealth in combat , telling us its underpowered , when the Devs + Sreamers aknowlgeghhe its prety opresive ?

Did you think I wouldnt check your timestamps? He doesnt talk about stealth in

either

of those timestamps. So uh, they dont. Next.2) tell me in the 01:46:19 what they dont about , rather than thief and general the stealth ?Go on i wait

???????

pets?

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:No stealth games are not in question. There is no stealth balance there.And really what we talk about here is invisibility, stealth is usually a term for states where the enemy is less visible, can't be targeted or silent. I don't know where all these no restriction stealth games are because I don't know any.

There are no multiplayer stealth games. And yes, thats what stealth means. Its invisibility. Its synonymous. Anyway, just about every MOBA, multiple shooters, several MMOs, even one or two fighting games

all

have that.

Anyway I am not even saying it is unbalanced, it's just bad and annoying design. And I see posts how there are many games like this one regarding stealth but I never encountered one.

Then youve just not played many multiplayer games. I cant think of many that

dont

have it, and theyre all shooters. That might eventually get it anyway.

Name the gamesIn wow breaks from every aoes and shots or having dotsRift the sameEnder Scroll sameHeroes of the storm , the newest game by Blizzard , if you are in mdium range you can see him

Even further. In wow it is only out of combat and has reduced movement speed. You have combat clears but on very long CDs - Vanish (5 minutes I tihnk reduced to 3 when I last played). You can see stealthed player in close range and it is available on melee chars exclusively (rogue, druid in cat form). There's mage invisibility but it has a few sec channel animation (3 sec?) during which anything cancels it and very long CD (again I think it was 5 reduced to 3 by my data is old). Maybe I missed some cases since it's been many years since I played.

Its also nearly permanent with no investment and on classes that oneshot you (or try to). Its not a good example. Thats why WoW is extremely atypical.

In Heroes they changed it that a player in stealth is seen by all quite clearly (before it was hard to see) only can't be targeted or seen on mini map. It becomes invisible only if stationary (only for ambushes).

This too has exceptions. Valeera has a form of stealth that is completely unrevealable by

anything

.

In dota invisibility means not seen on minimap and cant be targeted, seen on the screen - silhouette. Similar to heroes.

Uh, no. Theyre completely invisible. You cant see them at all. Its more like GW2 than Heroes. Some of them have "fade time", but a lot of them dont even have that, and even the ones that do have extremely short ones most of the time, like Weavers 0.25.

There are some other cases I am familiar but are from fps and usually very short duration, very hard (long CD power ups) to get and still seen just harder.

I cant think of any FPS where stealth cant be completely invisible. In TF2, its fully stealthed. In Planetside 2, its fully stealthed while crouchwalking.

And still no one has given and example of a game where stealth or better invisibility is so easy to get into and maintain as here.

Dota 2, League, TF2, Planetside 2, supposedly Dirty Bomb (but I cant confirm that, so take it with a grain of salt), Gigantic (RIP), Paladins, etc. etc.

1) Its permanant, but themajority areusing heir mount +100%(200% if you calcalate the basic movement) movement speed , While the Rogue runs at -50% .Not like here the the thif and the victim run at the same time

2) And it does low amount of damage in the early lvl . While the lategame its zerg zerg push

3)If you near the target and hover-stay near for 2 sec , he can see him

4)And break when you get hit , like eso

5)League have wards , which cost 85 gold and persistAbout Dota its was the first game and because its preaty old they cannotlonmger change mechanics , that why in the new Heros of Storm they changed the stelth