Decay vs Grind - Endgame

[Brian.6973]

I have been playing MMORPGS for a very long time, and there is something about endgame that I don’t get with the newer games. MMOs are 99% endgame, and that endgame should feel rewarding not grindy. MMOs strive not to create dead-zones where players don't have any particular interest in going back. There is a simple mechanic that can fix this, which is decay.

Decay introduces replayability and reduces grind. For example take magic find; currently you can grid it to max once and then it's done. If decay was introduced you could max it in a couple hours and it would decay over a couple weeks. Suddenly you have endgamers boosting their magic find before going to raid.

The weapon and armour system again doesn’t decay, so there is one long grind to get the best weapons / armour, and then it is done. If weapons lost durability with use then every so often players would go on material hunts to recraft. This means less grind and less dead zones in the future.

If there is too much decay there is grind due to too much replay, but no decay means zero replay and forces max upfront grind for endgame items.You can reduce the repetitiveness a bit with replay by having multiple zones to farm the same crafting items.

[mindcircus.1506]

These sound like the exact kind of mechanics that this game (and franchise) has purposefully shunned.Those development choices are what drew a lot of people to this franchise and keep them here.

[Linken.6345]

Its alittle diffrent in this game, here you play to find ultra rare infusions and armor/weapon skins.How many tripple wurm armor boxes, scion, drakkar weapon boxes or any one of the infusions have you got for example?EditAbout the magic find decay sounds like participation decay in wvw maybe thats something you would enjoy doing.

[Brian.6973]

I am not sure grind is something that draws a lot of people in, it is more likely other aspects of the game.Infusion collection has a diminishing return, and to combat this rarity is increased which can cause grind.If infusions were semi-rare but were bound to weapons that lost durability, you would need to replace them on occasion, which allows for replay and less grindy feel.

[Randulf.7614]

Decay is a horrible, clunky and outdated mechanic though. It is the sort of thing that would severely damage the game

[Cyninja.2954]

@Brian.6973 said:I am not sure grind is something that draws a lot of people in, it is more likely other aspects of the game.Infusion collection has a diminishing return, and to combat this rarity is increased which can cause grind.If infusions were semi-rare but were bound to weapons that lost durability, you would need to replace them on occasion, which allows for replay and less grindy feel.

You simply chose to define grind the way you see it.

The fact that decay causes you to have to re-grind things so you achieve a status once gained does not in any way make it less grind. On the contrary, it's even worse: it's forced/required grind to stay on par. The fact that you might draw enjoyment out of this is no different to players who do not draw enjoyment out of it, or better who enjoy the system how it is in GW2.

As mentioned:

@mindcircus.1506 said:These sound like the exact kind of mechanics that this game (and franchise) has purposefully shunned.Those development choices are what drew a lot of people to this franchise and keep them here.

There are tons of MMORPGs which have decay or regular devaluation of gear or other things. GW2 is intentionally different in some areas. If you want to have decay and devaluation, you are free to play any of the other MMORPGs.

[Luthan.5236]

System described in the first post seems boring to me. It would mean I could never really reach the permanent maximum magic find ... if there was decay. Even though it would be possible to get it quickly ... I would stop caring about it. There wouldn't be any motivation to get it at all.

Now there is a bit motivation. It takes long to max it but it feels like a real goal for you to work towards. On the other hand it does not feel grindy because it doesn't feel like the game is forcing me to do it as quickly as possible. I can get rare items even with low magic find.

Personally I'd find it more grindy to have to do stuff again. (What you describe as "replayability".) I like to finish my stuff so I can focus on the fun things. (PvP and other stuff.) If the game forced me to get new equipment every time ... that would feel repetitive and even more boring than grinding to get something 1 time.

[Taygus.4571]

How is forced grind, any less grindy? No thanks.

[Dante.1763]

Thankfully thats not a thing. One of the big points of GW1 and GW2 that drew me to the game was the lack of a "breaking weapons/armor/equipment just from using the item" mechanic, and adding that to account upgrades is just as bad IMO.

Im still not maxed out on magic find, ive been playing long before that change was done, but i didnt go ahead and buy my way to max, i still have another 17% to go.

[Brian.6973]

The idea that decay requires more grind due to re-grind doesn't make sense.Having items that are immortal means massive upfront grind since there is no replay. If you want immortal then decay gives that choice; you can either spend 30 days to gather 100 years worth of recrafts, or you can spend a few hours on occasion. Going back to a place to pickup resources occasionally can't be defined as grind, and if it is that means the decay rate is set too high.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Brian.6973 said:The idea that decay requires more grind due to re-grind doesn't make sense.Having items that are immortal means massive upfront grind since there is no replay.

It depends on the implementation, and for gear for example, comparing GW2's itemization to nearly ANY other MMORPG, your argument is already untrue.

[Dante.1763]

@Brian.6973 said:

Having items that are immortal means massive upfront grind since there is no replay.

i find this game less grindy than alot of games that have item decay, and the idea of loosing access to a weapon you really like is a huge turn off. Grinding for 30 days to pick up 100 years worth of repair items is a massive grindy no for me. Thats not enjoyable, repairing an item i worked hard for just to keep using it isnt enjoyable at all.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

If I liked grind, I would play something else.

Thinking about all the threads where people complain if something is somehow grind-y to get, it seems, the people who do not want grind in this game are the vast majority.

Which is not surprising. GW2 is one of very few safe places for people who do not want to grind ALL THE FREAKING TIME.

If you want to grind yourself to death, there are many OTHER games for you out there. Go play them. But do not ruin GW2 for us.

[Danikat.8537]

@"Luthan.5236" said:System described in the first post seems boring to me. It would mean I could never really reach the permanent maximum magic find ... if there was decay. Even though it would be possible to get it quickly ... I would stop caring about it. There wouldn't be any motivation to get it at all.

Now there is a bit motivation. It takes long to max it but it feels like a real goal for you to work towards. On the other hand it does not feel grindy because it doesn't feel like the game is forcing me to do it as quickly as possible. I can get rare items even with low magic find.

Personally I'd find it more grindy to have to do stuff again. (What you describe as "replayability".) I like to finish my stuff so I can focus on the fun things. (PvP and other stuff.) If the game forced me to get new equipment every time ... that would feel repetitive and even more boring than grinding to get something 1 time.

Same here. In other games where they're constantly adding new tiers of equipment and/or your equipment wears out and you have to replace it I simply assume I'll never max it out and don't make any effort to do so. I just use whatever I get and don't worry about going after specific items - why bother when they're just going to vanish or be invalidated sooner or later? Whereas if I know it's a one-time thing and once I've got it I can keep it then it's worth going for. It took me about a year to make my first legendary, but I've had it for 5 years and counting, so it was completely woth the time required.

But more importantly I don't think this game needs to rely on outdated mechanics to force players to keep repeating content. Partially because it doesn't rely on a subscription, meaning Anet can afford to allow players to take breaks, and the game was actually built around that, so it accomodates more casual players who might only play when there's a new release and then leave again. But also because when content is designed to be repeatable there's plenty of other incentives to do it, without causing problems for those players who don't want to do it. Some people run Fractals every single day, or clear every raid wing every week. But if they want to take a break from doing that they're not peanalised by having their equipment wrecked and people who don't want to do it at all aren't locked out of the areas of the game they enjoy because they're not interested in grinding for equipment, whether that's in one long go or repeatedly grinding the same 'quick' items every time they wear out. Overall I think it's a much nicer system for everyone involved.

[Brian.6973]

"Grinding for 30 days to pick up 100 years worth of repair items is a massive grindy no for me"My point was you could spend as many hours as now to have essentially immortal items which is by definition a grind, or you could spend the same time very infrequently which is not a grind. Grind is when you spend countless hours gathering all at once, not spending short amounts of time infrequently.

Could you point me to this game where you only spend a couple hours gathering / crafting the best weapons every couple months of hard gameplay? Would quite like to try that out.

[Dante.1763]

@"Brian.6973" said:"Grinding for 30 days to pick up 100 years worth of repair items is a massive grindy no for me"My point was you could spend as many hours as now to have essentially immortal items which is by definition a grind.

Or i could make the item once, never have to worry about it breaking and be completely happy with the time spent obtaining said weapon, as is the case for all the items ive obtained in this game.

And no

"Grinding refers to the playing time spent doing repetitive tasks within a game to unlock a particular game item or to build the experience needed to progress smoothly through the game."

Your idea is the exact definition of grind. repetitive tasking forced upon the player to continue playing the game smoothly. Cant play if your weapon breaks.

You know what i didnt do for my nearly 14 legendaries? grind for them. I played the game as i normally would, harvesting, mapping, and otherwise not being affected in any negative way by the experience. Being forced to stop every couple hours to go fix my weapons would be a negative impact on the game. Survival games are where that mechanic belongs, which is the only experience i have with it, and it makes sense there as a game mechanic. Not here, where it hasnt been a thing for the last 8 years of the games life and suddenly forcing it into the game would be bad.

[Brian.6973]

"adding new tiers of equipment"This is actually more necessary when decay isn't introduced; endgamers have all the top items now and they will last forever so lets introduce a new tier with more rarity. If items are mortal, then new tiers aren't really necessary.

"I'll never max it out and don't make any effort to do so" "locked out of the areas of the game they enjoy"This is more about calibration of rarity and decay, and has little to do with the mechanic itself. If things break too quick or materials are too rare then yeah that would make sense. I stopped playing for some time after looking at what was needed to get into fractals / raids, so think this can happen anyway.

There is also no reason why you could not have both; a glass version for us causal players and an unbreakable version that the elite people can have. Maybe the glass version could not be account-bound to give crafters a market.

Seems like there's a consensus on no decay, so won't spend more time on this point. Thanks

[Taygus.4571]

@"Brian.6973" said:"adding new tiers of equipment"This is actually more necessary when decay isn't introduced; endgamers have all the top items now and they will last forever so lets introduce a new tier with more rarity. If items are mortal, then new tiers aren't really necessary.

being that the game has had nearly 8 years with ascended and ledgie as max tier, clearly, ita not necessary at all.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Decay sounds like a lot more grinding than one-and-done.Kind of sounds like the OP wants some Ascended gear, but finds the journey too arduous. It's really not that hard.(And Fractals can be started with just Exotic gear, or less. No need to 'grind' to gather materials, as well. Play what you want and use your Gold to purchase said materials.)

[dbill.7483]

I still cannot understand why some players need the developers to tell them what to do in game (grind, decay, forced content, etc). GW2 allows me to play the content I want without going back to areas, events, achievements just to "maintain" my current stuff.

[MajinSoul.4512]

This just sounds like even more grind except for not being optional like it currently is. No thanks

[Brian.6973]

"suddenly forcing it into the game would be bad."Yeah I have to agree with this, I really don't see such a shift. The vet players would not be happy if stuff started to decay and was easier to obtain.Every couple months; hours would be a bit harsh for an mmo lol.

[Brian.6973]

"developers to tell them what to do in game"You can only do what any game is coded to do, which is defined by the devs, interesting to bring up the free will argument. Technically as mentioned decay introduces more freedom since you can either do everything at once or do a bit and come back later for recraft. If you don't want to go back, then spend as much time as you would have to craft the immortal version, and that would be enough to last a lifetime.

[Taygus.4571]

@"Brian.6973" said:"developers to tell them what to do in game"You can only do what any game is coded to do, which is defined by the devs, interesting to bring up the free will argument. Technically as mentioned decay introduces more freedom since you can either do everything at once or do a bit and come back later for recraft. If you don't want to go back, then spend as much time as you would have to craft the immortal version, and that would be enough to last a lifetime.

how is that any different to having exotics(gotten in hours) and working on ascended or ledgie for as long as you want?

[Obtena.7952]

@Brian.6973 said:I am not sure grind is something that draws a lot of people in, it is more likely other aspects of the game.Infusion collection has a diminishing return, and to combat this rarity is increased which can cause grind.If infusions were semi-rare but were bound to weapons that lost durability, you would need to replace them on occasion, which allows for replay and less grindy feel.

Hold on ... are you claiming Anet has chosen grind instead of decay to keep you playing endgame? What are you grinding for? How are you defining what grind is?