Time to take a page from Nightfall?

[Tukaram.8256]

I would love to see heroes added to the game. I keep asking for them. :)They were one of my favorite things about GW. I have been asking for them since the game launched. I have also been asking for fishing ha ha... that has not gone well either.

I would pay for an expansion, or at the gem store to get me some heroes!

[maddoctor.2738]

@SaiKosis.4587 said:And anyway I'm not really talking about using heroes in the open world here. I'm referring more to the content intended for groups like dungeons, raids, fractals, etc. PUGs suck. And a lot of the content is just simply out of reach for the casual gamer which is why GW2 is dying.

Which is exactly the content where the AI won't work.

[Omega.6801]

@SaiKosis.4587 said:

@lokh.2695 said:

@SaiKosis.4587 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:Heroes do not fit this style of game. It just wouldn't work here - it worked in GW1 because it was an evolution of the henchman system which the game was built around. GW2 is a lot more coop multiplayer based - it's a big part of what Anet have designed the game to be about. Heroes are not in line with that even if they did work. GW1 and GW2 are different styles of games with some overlap. Heroes is not one of those overlaps.

Imagine the AI trying to cope with a strike or a fractal, let alone pathing. And in open world would they take up a player spot?

I'm not a "diehard" fan and I've levied my fair share of criticism at this game, but 8 years on, it's doing pretty well.

Is it time to bring heroes in? No and that time will prob never come either for this game.

No it isn't. They had a bad 2019 and likely will be a worse 2020. It will only be around as along as they're making money, won't be much longer and it will be over.

Got any numbers to back up that hard and convinced "NO!!! GaEm DeD!!!" of yours?

A simple Google search should have been all you needed fanboy/girl.. But I'm sure you wouldn't even believe it reading it first hand.

Will ignore the verbal abuse and won't react to it.

I would believe it reading first hand, unfortunately "first hand" would mean a statement by ANet that GW2 is going to go into maintainance mode or that the servers are being shut down by [date]. Since we have not yet received such a statement, your interpretation of the data available is just as good, valid or important to the reality of the game as everybody else's. Sry m8.

https://variety.com/2019/gaming/news/guild-wars-2-arenanet-layoffs-ncsoft-1203145724/

An Article from Feb 2019 that tells us things we already know, mostly about the layoffs. It tells us that the ANet was not creating the revenue NCsoft would have liked at the end of 2018. So they took action and for all we know things might have improved.

https://www.geekwire.com/2019/guild-wars-2-developer-arenanet-confirms-layoffs-canceled-projects/

Basically the same articla as above.

https://massivelyop.com/2019/08/03/ncsoft-q2-2019-financials-guild-wars-2-may-be-eyeing-a-mobile-version-again/

An article from August 2019 stating that 1)Mobile games are the biggest factor of income for NCsoft and that GW2 may still go mobile(no confirmation or information about the topic is provided whatsoever). 2) GW2 earnings were "flat" one could also call it "stable" at this point. (Because of the business model of the game, high spikes in income can only be achieved by selling expansions.) 3) GW2's earnings are similar in developement to Lineage 2 and Aion.

https://massivelyop.com/2020/02/12/ncsoft-q4-2019-it-was-a-rough-quarter-for-mmorpgs-especially-guild-wars-2/

Finally something relevant to the discussion at hand. An article from Feb 2020 stating that q4 was probably the worst in terms of earnings for GW2 so far. While it is true, that q4 was rought, as was 2019 in general, the article also states that Blizzards release of WoW Classic might have had some influence on the matter.

https://www.mmobomb.com/news/lineage-aion-guild-wars-2-blade-soul-took-dive-q4/

Basically the same article as above. Special mention goes to a statement made by the author "...I don’t think NCSoft’s looking to pull out of Western territories just yet." Sure, that's only the oppinion of one author and he/she may be wrong about it. The main focus of the article however is on mobile games and bringing some of the mobile titles that are very successful in Korea to the US and Eu markets.

I mean, you really have to ask that question?? Seriously, if you aren't willing to look at the facts and just put your fanboy/girl blinders on then just stay out of the conversation okay?

Again, insulting people who have different oppinions or interpret the data in a different way won't help your argument and it most certainly won't help you with coming across liek a reasonable person.

And anyway I'm not really talking about using heroes in the open world here. I'm referring more to the content intended for groups like dungeons, raids, fractals, etc. PUGs suck. And a lot of the content is just simply out of reach for the casual gamer which is why GW2 is dying.

The notion that "PUGs suck" along with the hostile way you react to ppl disagreing with you, gives me a hint that this may be a you-problem rather than a problem with the game in general. On the one hand you argue like a "casual gamer" that has "lots of content" "out of his/her reach", on the ther hand you describe other players as unable to play the game on your level(which is what I take from "PUGs suck"), coming across rather elitist. Please decide on what side of the playerbase you want to position yourself.

On the actual topic of the thread:1) Is the game dead enough to warrant a henchmen/hero system? - I doubt it. Maps are still populated when a patch comes around, ppl still log in to do new content that arrives rather frequently. From my personal experience, as a player who plays PvE, WvW and Raids, these game modes still have an active playerbase, i.e. enough people to play with in a reasonable way. At the moment, there is no need to implement henchmen/heroes, at least not because there are no more players around to play with, there are.When it comes to financials your guess is as good as mine. I don't know how good the gemshop stuff sells, neither do you. I don't know if the game is worth NCsofts money, neither do you. What I see is that the gemshop has increased in importance as it seems and many of my fellow players regularly buy stuff for real money.

2) Would henchmen/heroes improve the game experience and should be implemented as a feature? - Sure, why not. As stated above, I don't have the problems OP seems to have. In open world PvE and WvW I have enough people around me to do almost everything, I have found people to raid with and PUG strikes on a regular basis. But I have a different mindset as it seems. I don't automatically assume thet "PUGs suck" and that therfor "lots of content" is "out of my reach". Maybe that's the problem and henchmen would definitely solve the issue here for OP.The other side of the issue is that, henchmen/heroes would most likely lead to a very different gaming experience, as you would no longer need to group up for group content. I can't say what this would do to the community. At best it would change only little, giving a group the option to fill in one or two places with AI characters, at worst it would further the notion that this MMO is in fact a hub based single player game making interaction between players less desireable.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Biggest diffrence gw 1 was a co op rpg while gw 2 is a mmorpg. Heroes would basicly at best remove any need of this needing to be online as why have ppl then if you can have npcs replace them . At worst not function and be just a wasted feuture

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@SaiKosis.4587 said:And anyway I'm not really talking about using heroes in the open world here. I'm referring more to the content intended for groups like dungeons, raids, fractals, etc. PUGs suck. And a lot of the content is just simply out of reach for the casual gamer which is why GW2 is dying.

Which is exactly the content where the AI won't work.

Also would be less mmo and more a sp game

[b k.1648]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Ben K.6238" said:It's interesting you say that, because that's the polar opposite of the impression I have. In GW1 it matters when you use a skill (and you had to be careful with hero builds to make them as 'dumb' as possible while still contributing something useful). GW2 DPS rotations are pretty kitten kitten by comparison and there's nothing complicated about using damage mitigation either. The reason why mobs and pets play so dumb is their skill selection has all the depth of a puddle.

GW1 doesn't have damage rotations. GW2 does and they play an important role in your damage output. In GW1 the AI will interrupt literally anything, in GW2 you need to pick and choose.

Not really; interrupting anywhere in the damage rotation stops it. Some things might be more valuable than others, if you could increase the cooldown significantly - but GW2's 10 seconds on Power Block trait is as good as it gets there.

Flagged heroes move really slowly. Boss mechanics and skills require fast reflexes and execution, something the GW1 does not require. In GW1 there are very few cases where flagging is important because the AI doesn't know to respond to, for example the rotating boulders at Ilsudur are invisible to the AI. GW2 would be like every single boss mechanics is similar to those boulders, in the end it won't be practical.

Most bosses in GW2 story instances aren't going to one-shot you if you mess up a few times. I'm fine with it being completely impractical for raids.

And that's where things like imbagons came into their own, because they'd just keep the damage reduction up permanently so heroes and henchmen could get away with playing like idiots. I disagree with the assessment that waiting for damage to occur means certain death in GW2 though; were that the case, I would be unable to play WvW because the lag is so bad that anticipating everything is simply not possible. Unless all the damage occurs in one hit, it's enough to simply mitigate the last 70-90% with block or dodge, and build with enough sustain to deal with the rest.

Talking about PVE here. The AI won't know -when- to dodge or block. In GW1 it doesn't, it just fires its skills whenever they are ready.

PvE is easy. Because all the one-shot mechanics (and there aren't that many) are running on other AI, you can notify all the hero AI that something needing mitigation is coming up.

If I were to build heroes for PvE dungeons or whatever, I'd follow the same principle: no thieves or glass cannon builds, high regen, lots of passive mitigation skills, and I'd personally use a support-heavy build that could grant blocks, distortion, etc. to the whole party with high frequency to deal with anything that could potentially one-shot my party.

Passive mitigation does very little in GW2.

Passive mitigation layers are how you build bunkers in PvP and WvW. Take a bit of damage out here, another bit there, add a few blocks/invulns for dealing with damage spikes, and then add some vigour and regen sources. One individual passive mitigation mechanic does very little, but layers of them do quite a lot.

There were, of course, places that heroes just could not do the job without impressive levels of micro-management, such as DoA. I don't think heroes could or should ever be used for raids in GW2 either. But other instances such as dungeons, personal story instances, and maybe fractals I can see some value, and the ability to bring some of your personal story allies with you for the later content would help solve one of the long-term problems that GW2 has been facing: neglected story characters.

Since you said "dungeons", GW2 requires a lot of teamwork to finish many encounters, something GW1 does not. How do you suppose the AI is coded to move to the green circles of Vale Guardian? Or do the cannon phase of the Crucible of Eternity. Or the Simin fight in Arah? Or the pressure plate part of Underground Fractal? Or the final boss of the Underground Fractal? Using flags? That would be insane. DoA was perfectly playable with Heroes and required no micro-management, there is no place in GW1 that requires insane micro-management of Heroes, it's all perfectly doable because GW1 does not have teamwork mechanics.

GW1's "teamwork mechanics" are builds that are designed to rely on each other, which instantly puts it way ahead of GW2 where interdependence is more of a suggestion. But yeah, flags actually are a viable option when movement skills exist. Not if you've got to have characters all moving in different directions, but that's mainly a raid thing. Underground Fractal would actually be doable even with the slow hero movement of GW1, because they just have to sit on pressure plates for the first segments and for the boss you don't need to flag them separately.

[Excursion.9752]

Hurray for things that keep you in aggro! .... NOT.

[crepuscular.9047]

it was not Guild Wars 2 killed Guild Wars, it was the heroes!!! Don't let history repeat itself!!!

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ben K.6238" said:Not really; interrupting anywhere in the damage rotation stops it.

Interrupting what? There is no rotation in GW1 and you don't really have to move in GW1 in most cases.

Most bosses in GW2 story instances aren't going to one-shot you if you mess up a few times. I'm fine with it being completely impractical for raids.

And dungeons and fractals. I guess it could work in Personal Story instances

PvE is easy. Because all the one-shot mechanics (and there aren't that many) are running on other AI, you can notify all the hero AI that something needing mitigation is coming up.

There are more attacks that you need to take care off than you have defenses for.

Passive mitigation layers are how you build bunkers in PvP and WvW. Take a bit of damage out here, another bit there, add a few blocks/invulns for dealing with damage spikes, and then add some vigour and regen sources. One individual passive mitigation mechanic does very little, but layers of them do quite a lot.

PVP/WVW bunkers don't work in "challenging" PVE. But since you said only story instances I guess it would work just fine in Personal Story story instances.

GW1's "teamwork mechanics" are builds that are designed to rely on each other, which instantly puts it way ahead of GW2 where interdependence is more of a suggestion.

Only there is no relying on others in GW1 in terms of mechanics, only it terms of your build, those are completely different. In GW2 you do rely on what others do.

But I guess it could work in the Personal Story, up to level 80. Although I fail to see the need for that.

[Rukia.4802]

I'm curious what content you're failing with pugs. GW2 was in dire straits for sure, even I thought it was all but dead and moved on until the xpac was announced.

I'm surprised this post was made on may 30 lol you're a few months(?) too late.

I did a augery rock meta for skyscale at 4 in the morning yesterday. Log into any other MMO at 4 AM and I challenge you to find a single other player doing something in the world. Its pretty freakin rare.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Ben K.6238" said:PvE is easy. Because all the one-shot mechanics (and there aren't that many) are running on other AI, you can notify all the hero AI that something needing mitigation is coming up.You still need to know what to dodge,what to sidestep, what to use your class mitigation for, and what is better left for your healer (or for guardian to aegis, for example). All those things cannot be hardcoded into AI, because they are highly situational, depending on things like the other members of the team, your specific position, or the place in dps rotation you're currently in. And, of course, on strategy used. So, for example, Ai would not use dodges when needed, or would use it for anything and run out of endurance fast. Same with defensive skills and heals.

If I were to build heroes for PvE dungeons or whatever, I'd follow the same principle: no thieves or glass cannon builds, high regen, lots of passive mitigation skills, and I'd personally use a support-heavy build that could grant blocks, distortion, etc. to the whole party with high frequency to deal with anything that could potentially one-shot my party.

Passive mitigation does very little in GW2.

Passive mitigation layers are how you build bunkers in PvP and WvW. Take a bit of damage out here, another bit there, add a few blocks/invulns for dealing with damage spikes, and then add some vigour and regen sources. One individual passive mitigation mechanic does very little, but layers of them do quite a lot.First, lot of that stuff depends on prediction (like using that invuln

before

the damage spike, not after it). Second, see my previous coment about how useful active defences would be for AI. Third, passive mitigation being useful for PvP does not change the fact that in PvE it does very little. Not because it doesn't mitigate the damage, but because mitigating the damage is one of the least important stuff there. Bunkers are simply next to useless in PvE.

GW1's "teamwork mechanics" are builds that are designed to rely on each other, which instantly puts it way ahead of GW2 where interdependence is more of a suggestion. But yeah, flags actually are a viable option when movement skills exist. Not if you've got to have characters all moving in different directions, but that's mainly a raid thing. Underground Fractal would actually be doable even with the slow hero movement of GW1, because they just have to sit on pressure plates for the first segments and for the boss you don't need to flag them separately.You'd still have to do a lot of stuff alone there (cage mechanism, bombs or lasers, using buckets on last boss) and flagging, especially in that first part, would be a kitten, but i guess that might be doable. Good job doing the Uncategorized with heroes, though. Or Thaumanova. Or Aetherblade. Or hammer swap on Cliffside. Or initial wisp running at swampland. Or...Need i go on?

And there are also things like Molten Furnace. In that last cage fight, the heroes either would not be able to deal with the mechanics on their own, and be useless there (no, flagging would not be fast enough to deal with that part), or they would be able to deal with them, in which case you could just go afk and collect the loot. There's practically no room for anything in between. And there are more fights like that in fractals/dungeons. Way too many.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

IMO GW1 barely qualifies as an MMO, since the only persistent 'world' was in the towns - everything else was instanced content. I had the same problem with D&D online. When only your non afk/social gameplay is 100% instanced, having NPC followers makes perfect sense, as there is nobody else on the map to render assistance or join your group, like you find in GW2, WoW, etc etc etc.

[Ayakaru.6583]

@SaiKosis.4587 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:Heroes do not fit this style of game. It just wouldn't work here - it worked in GW1 because it was an evolution of the henchman system which the game was built around. GW2 is a lot more coop multiplayer based - it's a big part of what Anet have designed the game to be about. Heroes are not in line with that even if they did work. GW1 and GW2 are different styles of games with some overlap. Heroes is not one of those overlaps.

Imagine the AI trying to cope with a strike or a fractal, let alone pathing. And in open world would they take up a player spot?

I'm not a "diehard" fan and I've levied my fair share of criticism at this game, but 8 years on, it's doing pretty well.

Is it time to bring heroes in? No and that time will prob never come either for this game.

No it isn't. They had a bad 2019 and likely will be a worse 2020. It will only be around as along as they're making money, won't be much longer and it will be over.

This just in: companies stick around only when they're making money.In other news, water is still wet. Stick around to find out what happens when you pour water on the floor.

[AgentMoore.9453]

I think instead of a heroes system, what you're more likely to get are ally summoning items with a cooldown, like the Sunspear Paragons, Ogre Pets, and the helpful Fire Elementals.

Gizmo items like these are handy, and ArenaNet can easily control their exploitation with cooldowns, timers, and instance restrictions as well.

Outside of that, some of the classes have built-in summons like Thief Pals, Necrominions, or others from this huge list. These are things already in the game and already proving not to be disruptive, so in a way you already have your allies available to you.

Anything more involved than that (like individual stats/appearances for allies) would require a new system be added to the game. I don't see it being worth the resources when they could just easily pump out more summons using systems they already have in place. It's the same reason why we get combat tonics and outfits instead of new races and armor pieces - Cost effective and fast.

Things could change in the future, but seem unlikely to if current patterns hold.

[sasya neko.1985]

the problem is that heroes don't belong in open world areas, they do have a use in team play areas.the combat system of GW2 is faster than GW1, even with a more simplified skill system and no tactical thinking GW2 still needs a complex AI to keep a 3 axes environment in mind plus the objective. (which even single player games specifically build for it bugs out all the time)

[SoulGuardian.6203]

I'd love to have heroes in private instances, such as story chapters, etc... but I'm not sure if they'd work in open world.

[Tails.9372]

@SoulGuardian.6203 said:I'm not sure if they'd work in open world.They would work as well as any other pet, meaning they would be fine until they are either zerg rushed by other mobs or meet a meta boss that knows how to spam AoEs.