Open World Domination: Fire Weaver

[Orack.9756]

@TricksteR.1392 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@TricksteR.1392 said:Which build have you been using? Fire/arcane or fire/earth?

I prefer the latter one, by far, but is it the best overall? Plus it's quite more expensive to get, due to the fact of being full trailblazer

My opinion hasn't changed much on this one. I don't find the difference between the two substantial enough to worry over which is "better" for solo play. As I see it, earth has a bit better damage and passive mitigation, but arcane performs nearly as well and has better recovery and more of a focus on evasion. You can't go wrong with either build, but my preference is still for arcane because I love having evasive arcana!

Even so, would u suggest making the switch over to traiblazers with undead runes?It won't be that expensive for me, i'll just stat swap, so no big deal

Also the trailblazer is far less expensive since the increase of Lily's drop ^^

[TricksteR.1392]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@TricksteR.1392 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@TricksteR.1392 said:Which build have you been using? Fire/arcane or fire/earth?

I prefer the latter one, by far, but is it the best overall? Plus it's quite more expensive to get, due to the fact of being full trailblazer

My opinion hasn't changed much on this one. I don't find the difference between the two substantial enough to worry over which is "better" for solo play. As I see it, earth has a bit better damage and passive mitigation, but arcane performs nearly as well and has better recovery and more of a focus on evasion. You can't go wrong with either build, but my preference is still for arcane because I love having evasive arcana!

Even so, would u suggest making the switch over to traiblazers with undead runes?It won't be that expensive for me, i'll just stat swap, so no big deal

Yeah definitely. You lose some health, but gain a good bit of armor, condition damage, and bleed duration.

How about the weapon sigils + food? Do they change aswell (with the arcane variant) or do they remain the same as before?

[AliamRationem.5172]

@TricksteR.1392 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@TricksteR.1392 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@TricksteR.1392 said:Which build have you been using? Fire/arcane or fire/earth?

I prefer the latter one, by far, but is it the best overall? Plus it's quite more expensive to get, due to the fact of being full trailblazer

My opinion hasn't changed much on this one. I don't find the difference between the two substantial enough to worry over which is "better" for solo play. As I see it, earth has a bit better damage and passive mitigation, but arcane performs nearly as well and has better recovery and more of a focus on evasion. You can't go wrong with either build, but my preference is still for arcane because I love having evasive arcana!

Even so, would u suggest making the switch over to traiblazers with undead runes?It won't be that expensive for me, i'll just stat swap, so no big deal

Yeah definitely. You lose some health, but gain a good bit of armor, condition damage, and bleed duration.

How about the weapon sigils + food? Do they change aswell (with the arcane variant) or do they remain the same as before?

For solo play I usually favor energy/cleansing. That grants enough additional evasion and cleansing to handle anything you come across without having to adjust your build. But I also carry smoldering, bursting, and a second focus with corruption as well as several different types of food including burn duration and endurance regen so that I can swap my configuration around if I want to.

[HappyHubris.1096]

What is the rotation of your revised build? Just cycling the fire and bleed skills, with self might as needed?

Also, what is the tradeoff between the weaves and elementals?

[AliamRationem.5172]

@HappyHubris.1096 said:What is the rotation of your revised build? Just cycling the fire and bleed skills, with self might as needed?

Also, what is the tradeoff between the weaves and elementals?

I've never actually used the elemental because I find pets annoying, but it seems a pretty strong and versatile skill. Weave self is a good skill for any game mode and it's been my go-to option since I started playing weaver. I would say use whichever you prefer.

On rotation I have been making an effort to use more earth and air and I think I have seen some improvement (plus it's more fun to utilize more of the kit!). I really don't consider myself any sort of expert on rotation, though. If I see a dramatic improvement I shall certainly share my findings here!

[AliamRationem.5172]

What makes for a great open world build? The only thing really missing here is a ranged weapon swap!

[steki.1478]

Ranged weapon wont really help on weaver considering that both ranged options are much worse than the melee ones. Tempest already uses a ranged weapon in both power and condi builds so dagger would just be some extra dmg.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@steki.1478 said:Ranged weapon wont really help on weaver considering that both ranged options are much worse than the melee ones. Tempest already uses a ranged weapon in both power and condi builds so dagger would just be some extra dmg.

I meant only that not having a ranged weapon swap on a build can be a liability for solo play. There's no chance I'm running staff or scepter here!

[AliamRationem.5172]

Here is the fire/earth build in action. How about an Avatar of Balthazar solo in 40 seconds without healing or dodging and my health bar stays above 85% the entire fight? Not bad for a "squishy" elementalist!

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAw2lZwmYXMJmJOKPXvaA-zRJYkRD/YkoA6kA6nFfd2A-e

[Sifu.9745]

Well, i like to play with ALL 4 attunements, so i've found full celestial Weaver with sword and dagger the only option for that kind of playstyle. Very relaxing and so much fun when you can swap between all 4 attunements randomly and you feel that each attunement has it's own value. You are pretty much unkillable with full Celestial and dmg is on pair with full dire/trailblaizer while also keeping a fair amount of healing power. And you need absolutely no rotation (with exception vs very hard content): it couldn't be easier.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Sifu.9745 said:Well, i like to play with ALL 4 attunements, so i've found full celestial Weaver with sword and dagger the only option for that kind of playstyle. Very relaxing and so much fun when you can swap between all 4 attunements randomly and you feel that each attunement has it's own value. You are pretty much unkillable with full Celestial and dmg is on pair with full dire/trailblaizer while also keeping a fair amount of healing power. And you need absolutely no rotation (with exception vs very hard content): it couldn't be easier.

Interesting. Got any video or benchmark values on that? I've never been able to get the damage out of celestial and certainly not when rotating to water for healing. In fact I've come to dislike healing stat on non-support ele builds because the baseline healing is generally more than adequate so that it isn't worth the damage loss. Your thoughts?

[Sifu.9745]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Sifu.9745 said:Well, i like to play with ALL 4 attunements, so i've found full celestial Weaver with sword and dagger the only option for that kind of playstyle. Very relaxing and so much fun when you can swap between all 4 attunements randomly and you feel that each attunement has it's own value. You are pretty much unkillable with full Celestial and dmg is on pair with full dire/trailblaizer while also keeping a fair amount of healing power. And you need absolutely no rotation (with exception vs very hard content): it couldn't be easier.

Interesting. Got any video or benchmark values on that? I've never been able to get the damage out of celestial and certainly not when rotating to water for healing. In fact I've come to dislike healing stat on non-support ele builds because the baseline healing is generally more than adequate so that it isn't worth the damage loss. Your thoughts?

It's all about fun:) I don't care if i lose some dmg when staying in Water as long as i have fun. (off course i avoid water when killing non elite mobs) It's just that feeling about the class, when you rotate through all of your attunements ... You don't do that with condi or power gear. Also Weaver sword and dagger both have some nice Power oriented spells, so i really don't mind some crit, power and ferocity stats, when rotating to Air or Fire. And dmg is not bad at all as long as you keep minimum 50% crit. Sigil of Accuracy + Signet of Fire provides enough crit (around 15%) to make Power stats strong enough.

[Obtena.7952]

@Sifu.9745 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Sifu.9745 said:Well, i like to play with ALL 4 attunements, so i've found full celestial Weaver with sword and dagger the only option for that kind of playstyle. Very relaxing and so much fun when you can swap between all 4 attunements randomly and you feel that each attunement has it's own value. You are pretty much unkillable with full Celestial and dmg is on pair with full dire/trailblaizer while also keeping a fair amount of healing power. And you need absolutely no rotation (with exception vs very hard content): it couldn't be easier.

Interesting. Got any video or benchmark values on that? I've never been able to get the damage out of celestial and certainly not when rotating to water for healing. In fact I've come to dislike healing stat on non-support ele builds because the baseline healing is generally more than adequate so that it isn't worth the damage loss. Your thoughts?

It's all about fun:) I don't care if i lose some dmg when staying in Water as long as i have fun. (off course i avoid water when killing non elite mobs) It's just that feeling about the class, when you rotate through all of your attunements ... You don't do that with condi or power gear. Also Weaver sword and dagger both have some nice Power oriented spells, so i really don't mind some crit, power and ferocity stats, when rotating to Air or Fire. And dmg is not bad at all as long as you keep minimum 50% crit. Sigil of Accuracy + Signet of Fire provides enough crit (around 15%) to make Power stats strong enough.

I think we need to be careful. Fun is primary, but it's also subjective. It's also not related to making claims that full Celestial is on par with Full dire/trailblazers because that's not an assessment of fun, stat comparisons are about performance. It's also not really possible for full Celestial can be on par with anything specific like is needed with OWD builds; the stat allocation simply doesn't allow it.

We also have to ensure that we are talking about the same thing here ... the thread is about OWD builds ... and the reality is that what Celestial gear does for you (it's simply a increase in baseline performance) is unlikely to achieve the kinds of performance needed to complete exceptional tasks because some stats are simply not optimal for those tasks. Given that the thread is about builds that achieve those tasks, it's hard to see where your angle is here. If you have a build using Celestial that achieves the kinds of exceptional tasks shown by the OP and his builds, we would like to see it, see what can be done with it and understand it.

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Sifu.9745 said:Well, i like to play with ALL 4 attunements, so i've found full celestial Weaver with sword and dagger the only option for that kind of playstyle. Very relaxing and so much fun when you can swap between all 4 attunements randomly and you feel that each attunement has it's own value. You are pretty much unkillable with full Celestial and dmg is on pair with full dire/trailblaizer while also keeping a fair amount of healing power. And you need absolutely no rotation (with exception vs very hard content): it couldn't be easier.

Interesting. Got any video or benchmark values on that? I've never been able to get the damage out of celestial and certainly not when rotating to water for healing. In fact I've come to dislike healing stat on non-support ele builds because the baseline healing is generally more than adequate so that it isn't worth the damage loss. Your thoughts?

I've found the same thing. Healing doesn't scale well enough with Heal power to make it worth the sacrifice over most other stats combos we can access and compared to other offensive-stat bearing sets, Celestial is just bad.

[Sifu.9745]

Can't help myself, i am obsessed with celestial ele/tampest/weaver. I play celestial staff (or d/d) Tempest, celestial sw/d Weaver. No need to change gear when entering WvW for example. I like to keep same gear, same identity and i don't care, if dps is not the top as long as my survivability is.

Anyway, you do realize that Healing stat on celestial gear is kind of a free stat? I wouldn't complain about getting one stat for free. Also it makes my Barriers much stronger = better survivability, and this is the main reason why healing is a good stat on Weaver: because of Barriers. I always take a Stone Resonance utility skill for that reason + dodge gives me Barrier as well. That's why healing is not bad at all on my gear. My playstyle depends on barrier a lot.Anyway i didn't say my build is better than OPs build. It's just another option, if you don't want to play a glass cannon elementalist and you are not a fan of a condi builds.Sorry for English ...

[AliamRationem.5172]

While I agree that there is value in objectively defining relative performance so that players reading this can make informed decisions, it's also true that condi weaver is a very flexible spec. It is easy, for instance, to solo all of these HoT HPs in celestial gear. In my experience, the damage is lower while sustain is more than adequate.

There is plenty of room to use different trait lines than arcane or earth. Optimal probably not? But it won't kill the build. You can run different stats, utilities and runes as well. It's hard to make condi or hybrid sword weaver unplayable for open world.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Sifu.9745 said:Can't help myself, i am obsessed with celestial ele/tampest/weaver. I play celestial staff (or d/d) Tempest, celestial sw/d Weaver. No need to change gear when entering WvW for example. I like to keep same gear, same identity and i don't care, if dps is not the top as long as my survivability is.

Anyway, you do realize that Healing stat on celestial gear is kind of a free stat? I wouldn't complain about getting one stat for free. Also it makes my Barriers much stronger = better survivability, and this is the main reason why healing is a good stat on Weaver: because of Barriers. I always take a Stone Resonance utility skill for that reason + dodge gives me Barrier as well. That's why healing is not bad at all on my gear. My playstyle depends on barrier a lot.Anyway i didn't say my build is better than OPs build. It's just another option, if you don't want to play a glass cannon elementalist and you are not a fan of a condi builds.Sorry for English ...

Do you happen to know the ballpark percentages for condi vs power damage with your build? The reason I ask is that even with stats like grieving I can't get much out of power without really supporting it with traits (i.e. taking air trait line and power damage boosters). This generally takes away as much or more damage from a pure condi setup as you gain, making hybrid builds never really pay off for me.

Another question. What do you think of plague doctor stats?

[Obtena.7952]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:While I agree that there is value in objectively defining relative performance so that players reading this can make informed decisions, it's also true that condi weaver is a very flexible spec. It is easy, for instance, to solo all of these HoT HPs in celestial gear. In my experience, the damage is lower while sustain is more than adequate.

There is plenty of room to use different trait lines than arcane or earth. Optimal probably not? But it won't kill the build. You can run different stats, utilities and runes as well. It's hard to make condi or hybrid sword weaver unplayable for open world.

I don't disagree ... celestial has more than adequate sustain at the expense of offensive stats and that there are more than one build that can successfully do lots of content. The question is if those other builds are noteworthy for any reason other than being 'fun'. I appreciate the content of these OWD threads and the build analysis and the value of these threads is very high as long as we can acknowledge the difference between 'fun' builds and the high performance OWD ones.

I think collectively, we can recognize that the exercise being discussed in this thread is related to optimally completing exceptionally difficult to solo OW content. I doubt celestials fits into that because of it's wide distributions of stats and values to them ... but I sure am interested in seeing some comparison if one existed.

I think if the starting point is a trailblazers armor for a condi build:

• to increase direct damage at the expense of condi, you flip some to Soldiers.
• to increase direct damage at the expense of sustain, you flip some to Vipers.
• to increase sustain at the expense of condi, you have to start taking some 'off side' stats like Healing power. For me, that's really questionable choice ... if the build is already struggling with a full TB gear ... then maybe it's not that good a candidate for OWD build to begin with.

I think if the starting point is berserker armor for a direct damage build:

• to increase sustain at the expense of damage, you flip some to Soldiers.
• If you cap crit rate, you flip some to Valks.

I haven't seen much suggestions from people for things like Plaguedoctors or Celestials in these kinds of builds though it would be cool to see if it's been tried.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:While I agree that there is value in objectively defining relative performance so that players reading this can make informed decisions, it's also true that condi weaver is a very flexible spec. It is easy, for instance, to solo all of these HoT HPs in celestial gear. In my experience, the damage is lower while sustain is more than adequate.

There is plenty of room to use different trait lines than arcane or earth. Optimal probably not? But it won't kill the build. You can run different stats, utilities and runes as well. It's hard to make condi or hybrid sword weaver unplayable for open world.

I don't disagree ... celestial has more than adequate sustain at the expense of offensive stats and that there are more than one build that can successfully do lots of content. The question is if those other builds are noteworthy for any reason other than being 'fun'. I appreciate the content of these OWD threads and the build analysis and the value of these threads is very high as long as we can acknowledge the difference between 'fun' builds and the high performance OWD ones.

I think collectively, we can recognize that the exercise being discussed in this thread is related to optimally completing exceptionally difficult to solo OW content. I doubt celestials fits into that because of it's wide distributions of stats and values to them ... but I sure am interested in seeing some comparison if one existed.

I think if the starting point is a trailblazers armor for a condi build:

• to increase direct damage at the expense of condi, you flip some to Soldiers.
• to increase direct damage at the expense of sustain, you flip some to Vipers.
• to increase sustain at the expense of condi, you have to start taking some 'off side' stats like Healing power. For me, that's really questionable choice ... if the build is already struggling with a full TB gear ... then maybe it's not that good a candidate for OWD build to begin with.

I think if the starting point is berserker armor for a direct damage build:

• to increase sustain at the expense of damage, you flip some to Soldiers.
• If you cap crit rate, you flip some to Valks.

I haven't seen much suggestions from people for things like Plaguedoctors or Celestials in these kinds of builds though it would be cool to see if it's been tried.

I like this discussion. I think getting insights on the various stat combinations and their relative worth from different player's perspectives can be very useful. If you folks will indulge me, I'll ramble a bit on the topic myself! Feel free to add your input!

I've tested a variety of stats across basically any game mode where I can play by myself or with a friend (i.e. not fractals/raids, but WvW roaming, PvP - mostly dueling, and open world/story content). What I've found is that I really don't see much benefit from stats other than condition damage, expertise, and toughness in solo play.

In theory, vitality should give you more time to react and live (I am taking the math wizards at their word on this because I don't theorycraft, I just play the game!). However, at the point where I can stand there neither dodging nor healing with my health above 85% against the avatar of Balthazar, I feel the value of vitality in practical terms is pretty negligible.

Fortunately for our condi sword build, there aren't really any good stat combinations that feature toughness and condition damage without vitality. Settler's and Rabid? I'd take dire or trailblazer over either of those. So, practically speaking, you aren't really forced to choose between toughness and vitality as they happily coexist in our best stat options. However, if one were to build around the concept of having a massive health pool along with the healing power to continually refill it, I think plaguedoctor with Balthazar rune is a great choice!

To sum up, in my opinion, toughness > vitality > healing power as far as defensive stats go. Trailblazer stands out as the obvious choice because it offers the most favorable defensive and offensive stats available.

What about hybrids? My issue with power and precision on condi sword is that I just don't see the payoff. If I'm ramping up burns to as high as 15k in 3 seconds and as high as 30k in 6 seconds, how much is adding the ability to crit for maybe 2k on some skills less than half the time really adding to my burst or sustained damage? Unless it dies in 2 seconds (in which case how much faster do you want it dead?), I'm not feeling it.

This is reflected in arcdps, where even full grieving stats don't seem to produce much better than a 10 or maybe 15% contribution from power in solo play and my real world tests on HoT HP champs resulted in similar times. For two stats invested, it just doesn't seem worth it. Particularly when you consider the loss of all that toughness and vitality, which allows you to stay in the pocket dealing damage longer. The only place I feel like hybrid stats work for condi sword is in PvP/WvW.

[Obtena.7952]

It makes sense to me your general conclusions ...

1. It's highly unlikely a hard mob is going to die quickly enough to not see the 'end' of condition damage applications.
2. Toughness extends your relative healing and health. For example, if you get enough toughness to half the average damage you take, you have the ability to take twice as many hits and heal for a larger percentage of the damage you take. Increases in VIT or HP don't have the same impact.

[Eraden.8740]

I've never tried out Weaver yet but now you have me curious. I have a question about this spec. Would it work ok with a full set of ascended berserker gear or would the gear make me too squishy for this spec?

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Eraden.8740 said:I've never tried out Weaver yet but now you have me curious. I have a question about this spec. Would it work ok with a full set of ascended berserker gear or would the gear make me too squishy for this spec?

This build is designed for pure condi or condi-forward hybrids. With a power build you want to run air traits and dagger offhand, but yes, you will be a lot more squishy than the builds featured in these videos.

[Eraden.8740]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Eraden.8740 said:I've never tried out Weaver yet but now you have me curious. I have a question about this spec. Would it work ok with a full set of ascended berserker gear or would the gear make me too squishy for this spec?

This build is designed for pure condi or condi-forward hybrids. With a power build you want to run air traits and dagger offhand, but yes, you will be a lot more squishy than the builds featured in these videos.

So sword and dagger, Air instead of Fire? Any other differences in terms of what to put on the berserker gear? I've only been back playing for a few months now and everything seems new and strange still, with regards to my Elementalist.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Eraden.8740 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Eraden.8740 said:I've never tried out Weaver yet but now you have me curious. I have a question about this spec. Would it work ok with a full set of ascended berserker gear or would the gear make me too squishy for this spec?

This build is designed for pure condi or condi-forward hybrids. With a power build you want to run air traits and dagger offhand, but yes, you will be a lot more squishy than the builds featured in these videos.

So sword and dagger, Air instead of Fire? Any other differences in terms of what to put on the berserker gear? I've only been back playing for a few months now and everything seems new and strange still, with regards to my Elementalist.

Not necessarily. Fire/air is probably meta, although I think arcane/air or even water/air could work.

[Arheundel.6451]

Power builds can still use fire with Fire expulsion dealing upward of 3k dmg under ideal conditions, plus flame uprising for another 3-4k dmg, fire/arcane focusing on vigor uptime. For air users, nothing surpass dagger main hand thx to convergence shorter cd

[Eraden.8740]

Ok, I have switched over to Dire gear and tried out the build the OP had listed. OH MY GOD. I used to struggle killing more than one monster at a time. Now I am soloing groups and even solo killing Champions. Oh dear lord! It's almost scary!