Perma stealth in keeps?

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

People are either confused, or being obtuse. The thief hiding is not in a duel, they are not on dueling or roaming builds, they are running max hiding and escape builds, if you happen to catch them and hit them with a reveal, they are going to flat out run, they have ZERO intention on fighting, and try just catching a roaming build that doesn't want to fight, most classes will not be able to even keep up, let alone catch and kill, now change that build to one that does no dmg and is built for nothing but stealth and running with all defensive stats.

My main is DH, a good counter to thief, however that is ONLY if the thief sticks around to fight, if they run, I have no chance of keeping up (assuming I was able to hit them with reveal). You dropped a reveal trap I was stupid enough to hit AND you happen to be camping it? I jump out and when you jump out after me, well, I already have portal placed inside, so I open it and port back in and then /laugh while you have to run all the way back to keep gate to get back in and I am by that time, on the other side of the keep, stacking stealth again. Don't jump out after me? I wait for the counter, stealth, open portal, find a new place to hide portal, drop it and repeat the process again.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Calle.8746 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Calle.8746 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Let me get this right.

So your keep gets broken into, both outer and inner. Which you see because you are involved in the fight to defend. Then a thief who stayed behind spends 30 minutes stacking stealth and avoiding reveals from any number of people who are trying to catch them. Which, is because they lost the fight to take the keep and presumably are decently outnumbered.

Then, after some time, up to 30 minutes of stealth stacking and avoiding reveals later they manage to bring some allies using Shadow Portal into inner. And then that group manages to beat the keep lord without anyone knowing about it.

When did this happen or did you just dream it up?

Lol are you kitten me? Avoiding reveals are easy as hell. And since when is WvW about the entire group trying to find 1 stealthing thief? This happens on a weekly baisis. I even do it on my thief whenever I play it.

So you don’t sweep for thief and Mesmer after? Like, sure, one reveal is easy. Several over the span of 10 seconds will be much much harder to stick around and stay alive.

If you can’t be bothered then that thief and the group deserve that cap imo.

No one what so ever has said anything about mesmer. Dont even try to compare the 2. I have no problem with mesmer at all. Sure they can hide but are easily found with "Sniff" or by just running around.

A completely different story when it comes to thieves who are permanetly invisible. And unless an entire zerg is chasing after me when I play my thief I wont be found. Doesn't matter the amount of reveal they have. Avoiding it is easy. You honestly just sound like a pathetic thief main who enjoy abusing broken mechanics because you lack skill.

Stop trying to justify broken mechanics.

If that Zerg was smart, they would use stealth traps all over the place. I'll file what you said under 'Things That Didn't Happen'.

Yes, have an entire squad drop 50 stealth reveal traps (which even at the low cost of 5 per trap, drains up to 250 supply). Which also only work IF you chase a Deadeye into it in the first place. Even that is hardly balanced. There is NO other class which would demand this amount of supply waste/usage.

Meanwhile, a good Deadeye is either portaling out of the keep and back in. Skillfully evading the few warrior/engineers with their long reveal cooldowns and IF caught, using Shadow Meld to re-stealth and escape (and if he has half a brain, avoid earlier placed traps unless he has the memory of an amoeba and the perception of a piece of wood).

Sorry, but if you hare having issues as DE to not remain in a keep, you are just bad at your class.

I actually don't have issues remaining in keeps because of a few easy tricks. Cast portal on inner right next to the spawn gates, run away to get out of Marked territory, port as soon as the CD is almost up and replace portal, repeat.

If I get caught and people try to place traps and damage on my portal spot, I have an ally go in first to be my damage sponge, drop portal and run away again.

It's not hard, but what am I actually accomplishing? Being a pest, that's it. It's literally what my job there is since I don't have 20 person portals and I don't often have mesmers on hand to do that for me. If I manage to outsmart a map blob and get a few people in to quick flip something, then I say I earned it because they didn't pay attention. They can usually take it back anyway because we didn't have the numbers to defend it in the first place.

Also, Nomad gear and Rebirth runes because I like not dying but still doing 5k on Death's Judgment for some reason.

So, you basically admit that a good thief, and DE especially, has no issue to remain in an objective indefinitely, but then see no issue with it?

Stop looking at this game from a "oh we flip T0 objectives" all day long, but from an actual "we have a built out T3 objectives and all 3 sides have been sieging up the entire day to get ready for prime time". Especially on EU, WvW is not as dead as it is on NA outside of T5 (and even T5 sees some action at current player numbers).

That "portal issue", good thing public squads can bring mesmers then isn't it?

I have looked at it from that perspective too. If anyone gets to lord on a T3 objective we own, I assume there is a stealth thief inside before I don't. I know where the best hiding spots are and I always stress to sweep and use stealth traps.

Here's why I say it's fair game; it's not impossible to catch me. If they know I'm there, the only way I can reliably get away is if it's my own spawn keep and I run to the safe zone. DE is nowhere near as fast as DD and even with Shortbow, it's not hard to keep up with me. The moment I can't stealth, I'm in trouble, and if I use my portal to escape and they find me because I'm marked on their minimap, I have no choice but to bail out. I have little kill power besides DJ which reveals me and isn't exactly reliable vs awake players, and I have almost no stun breaks if I want to hold stealth and not leave giant AoEs giving me away. Shiro revs, other non DE thieves, and rangers can often keep up with me or just pew pew me from behind.

My biggest asset is not being seen, the moment they know im there, there are ways to stop me and stealth traps are often how it happens because it quite literally turns my build off.

Nobody said it's impossible to catch a thief. The question and argument raised is:

is the effort required balanced

with the current thief skill set and counter skill set on other classes or versus stealth?

Also, DE, while less mobile than a DD is still a thief, and still vastly more mobile than 8 other classes in this game.

Exactly, the moment you can't stealth. So let's address that then, that's what this topic is about. The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

Like I said earlier, people don't put in the effort and that's really the biggest problem for any server losing their stuff. If they don't have coverage, then thieves or mesmers aren't the problem for them. You also might have read that post you quoted but you glossed over it because they pretty much told you how to catch that DE and it wouldn't take much, but you're still claiming it's some massive effort when it's not. I don't know what to tell you, you have the same utility budget as they do and can either counter their focus or you can stick with whatever you have to run around with blobs or whatever.

Name 1 class which can both reveal and chase down a thief which does not want to get caught, besides another thief.

I don't have to, that post you quoted before that you mostly ignored named some. Also, it's less about the class and more about what you're willing to do with your build, what you're willing to take on your utility bar or in your inventory, and what the guild claiming the structure is willing to manage and hopefully the server has a culture of taking care of their stuff.

Which I responded to, and those classes are no counters, here is what I wrote, which you obviously skipped:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

So back to my question: name a class please which is mobile enough and has access to reveal which can chase down a thief (even thiefs don't have reveals, but they are mobile enough to stay on target which in the hands in a more skilled player is enough).

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Calle.8746 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Not to play devils advocate, however if a wall goes down in a t3 keep, its common knowledge to do a mesmer sweep, which now involves the warclaws sniff. Should a couple people have done a Sniff, then the dot would have appeared and stealth traps would be laid.

As a thief who has done this, and someone who sweeps for mesmers/thiefs, its fairly easy.

No one has issues with mesmers in todays meta.

Yes, the best/only counter to thief is another thief, we know. So that's balanced then?

Pretty sure a sic em pewpew ranger also counters thieves, as do anyone with decent AoE (esp aoe condi)

Sick em' only work if you can target the thief, wich is not possible while they're in stealth. AoE condi is pretty useless thanks to "Shadow's Embrace" wich removes condi while in stealth.

Not everyone runs that, believe me, and the rate which the condis are removed are not that fastAlso necro (core) has an aoe tether/reveal that apparently (from experience) you dont need to see them, just need to be within a vicinity.Theres counter play for everything,just need to know it and utilize it.

So we are down to 1 class (if we let sic em ranger slide, since they actually need vision first) AND cherry picking what traits and skills the thief does not run? Hint: the if the thief does not WANT to be found, guess which traits and abilities he will be using?

Pretty weak defense guys. My suggestion, pray Arenanet balance things against stealth and not other things like mobility. One of both would make the class unplayable in all content, the other would simply address issues about perma stealthing thiefs. I know what I would pick if I had to make a choice as thief (that is unless you believe Arenanet will let this go on forever, which they very well might do, WvW seeing all the attention it does).

You didn't respond to what I said at all, you just dismissed it so ill say it again. If I'm perma stealthing, my trait and skill options are limited in terms of what's viable without advertising that I'm there. Shadow Refuge? Giant AoE that gives me away, same with Smoke Screen. Rifle Kneel 4 often gives me away because of my character talking and letting everyone know I'm around, and even one of my best methods by marking a random NPC can sound d the alarm because they're got my DE mark effect and debuff on them, and if they saw me at any point then they'll stand in combat form from trying to rush to me, giving me away in the area.

The main issue you seem to have is you're assuming I'm just as slippery as a DD thief running Shadow Step, Unhindered Combatant, Shortbow and DD heal for extra endurance. I've got literally one of those things and it's Shortbow. I'm MUCH slower than any other thief build by far. Shiro revs have as much chase potential as they want because they'll get their port back around the same time I can SB5 again and they have more range and ignore LoS while having a reveal in Glint and extra chase options with offhand sword and S3. Rangers can burst me down with LB from 1500 range and have plenty of immobilize to ruin my day since I can't cleanse it nearly as easily. Heck, even Mimic Blink Mesmers with GS can keep up at first, Burn Guards with Judges Intervention and a sword they swap to for the teleport can kill me with burns since my cleanse is terrible, DH can stop me dead in my tracks with an elite trap if I step on one or pull me with F1, Rocket Boots Engi has great chase at first if they can get close to me, and everyone can chase me on a mount and always knows where I'm at because I'm marked on minimap.

Before you go 'But Stealth!', use a reveal trap. It quite literally gives me ONE option and it's running away, which I've already explained I'm far less capable at doing with the skills I need to keep stealth up and my stun break options are terrible if I can't portal out. Once I'm revealed for prolonged periods from stealth traps, the thing that keeps me alive more than anything is Nomad gear with Rebirth runes to make me extra tanky and have a second chance before dying with the barrier.

It's annoying to deal with me before revealing, but literally everyone has access to the hardest counter to my build which is Stealth Traps. If people drop a few of them in areas I want to hide in, or in tight chokes I have no choice crossing if I'm moving away from people, I'm gonna hit one. Once that happens, I'm a wet noodle thief with no damage, subpar mobility, and a bunch of useless utility skills.

[pninak.1069]

why would a mes carry blink and mimic? I can see that some players use mimic as an escape option, but using mimic together with blink cripples your combat abilities. so why go for a chase build that isn't even able kill the person being chased? most classes won't go for fastest way of porting/running, because having enough dmg to take down the perticular build is more important. I mean sure they got the option to play like this, but no-one else out of thief really profits out of this.

[Cyninja.2954]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Calle.8746 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Calle.8746 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Let me get this right.

So your keep gets broken into, both outer and inner. Which you see because you are involved in the fight to defend. Then a thief who stayed behind spends 30 minutes stacking stealth and avoiding reveals from any number of people who are trying to catch them. Which, is because they lost the fight to take the keep and presumably are decently outnumbered.

Then, after some time, up to 30 minutes of stealth stacking and avoiding reveals later they manage to bring some allies using Shadow Portal into inner. And then that group manages to beat the keep lord without anyone knowing about it.

When did this happen or did you just dream it up?

Lol are you kitten me? Avoiding reveals are easy as hell. And since when is WvW about the entire group trying to find 1 stealthing thief? This happens on a weekly baisis. I even do it on my thief whenever I play it.

So you don’t sweep for thief and Mesmer after? Like, sure, one reveal is easy. Several over the span of 10 seconds will be much much harder to stick around and stay alive.

If you can’t be bothered then that thief and the group deserve that cap imo.

No one what so ever has said anything about mesmer. Dont even try to compare the 2. I have no problem with mesmer at all. Sure they can hide but are easily found with "Sniff" or by just running around.

A completely different story when it comes to thieves who are permanetly invisible. And unless an entire zerg is chasing after me when I play my thief I wont be found. Doesn't matter the amount of reveal they have. Avoiding it is easy. You honestly just sound like a pathetic thief main who enjoy abusing broken mechanics because you lack skill.

Stop trying to justify broken mechanics.

If that Zerg was smart, they would use stealth traps all over the place. I'll file what you said under 'Things That Didn't Happen'.

Yes, have an entire squad drop 50 stealth reveal traps (which even at the low cost of 5 per trap, drains up to 250 supply). Which also only work IF you chase a Deadeye into it in the first place. Even that is hardly balanced. There is NO other class which would demand this amount of supply waste/usage.

Meanwhile, a good Deadeye is either portaling out of the keep and back in. Skillfully evading the few warrior/engineers with their long reveal cooldowns and IF caught, using Shadow Meld to re-stealth and escape (and if he has half a brain, avoid earlier placed traps unless he has the memory of an amoeba and the perception of a piece of wood).

Sorry, but if you hare having issues as DE to not remain in a keep, you are just bad at your class.

I actually don't have issues remaining in keeps because of a few easy tricks. Cast portal on inner right next to the spawn gates, run away to get out of Marked territory, port as soon as the CD is almost up and replace portal, repeat.

If I get caught and people try to place traps and damage on my portal spot, I have an ally go in first to be my damage sponge, drop portal and run away again.

It's not hard, but what am I actually accomplishing? Being a pest, that's it. It's literally what my job there is since I don't have 20 person portals and I don't often have mesmers on hand to do that for me. If I manage to outsmart a map blob and get a few people in to quick flip something, then I say I earned it because they didn't pay attention. They can usually take it back anyway because we didn't have the numbers to defend it in the first place.

Also, Nomad gear and Rebirth runes because I like not dying but still doing 5k on Death's Judgment for some reason.

So, you basically admit that a good thief, and DE especially, has no issue to remain in an objective indefinitely, but then see no issue with it?

Stop looking at this game from a "oh we flip T0 objectives" all day long, but from an actual "we have a built out T3 objectives and all 3 sides have been sieging up the entire day to get ready for prime time". Especially on EU, WvW is not as dead as it is on NA outside of T5 (and even T5 sees some action at current player numbers).

That "portal issue", good thing public squads can bring mesmers then isn't it?

I have looked at it from that perspective too. If anyone gets to lord on a T3 objective we own, I assume there is a stealth thief inside before I don't. I know where the best hiding spots are and I always stress to sweep and use stealth traps.

Here's why I say it's fair game; it's not impossible to catch me. If they know I'm there, the only way I can reliably get away is if it's my own spawn keep and I run to the safe zone. DE is nowhere near as fast as DD and even with Shortbow, it's not hard to keep up with me. The moment I can't stealth, I'm in trouble, and if I use my portal to escape and they find me because I'm marked on their minimap, I have no choice but to bail out. I have little kill power besides DJ which reveals me and isn't exactly reliable vs awake players, and I have almost no stun breaks if I want to hold stealth and not leave giant AoEs giving me away. Shiro revs, other non DE thieves, and rangers can often keep up with me or just pew pew me from behind.

My biggest asset is not being seen, the moment they know im there, there are ways to stop me and stealth traps are often how it happens because it quite literally turns my build off.

Nobody said it's impossible to catch a thief. The question and argument raised is:

is the effort required balanced

with the current thief skill set and counter skill set on other classes or versus stealth?

Also, DE, while less mobile than a DD is still a thief, and still vastly more mobile than 8 other classes in this game.

Exactly, the moment you can't stealth. So let's address that then, that's what this topic is about. The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

Like I said earlier, people don't put in the effort and that's really the biggest problem for any server losing their stuff. If they don't have coverage, then thieves or mesmers aren't the problem for them. You also might have read that post you quoted but you glossed over it because they pretty much told you how to catch that DE and it wouldn't take much, but you're still claiming it's some massive effort when it's not. I don't know what to tell you, you have the same utility budget as they do and can either counter their focus or you can stick with whatever you have to run around with blobs or whatever.

Name 1 class which can both reveal and chase down a thief which does not want to get caught, besides another thief.

I don't have to, that post you quoted before that you mostly ignored named some. Also, it's less about the class and more about what you're willing to do with your build, what you're willing to take on your utility bar or in your inventory, and what the guild claiming the structure is willing to manage and hopefully the server has a culture of taking care of their stuff.

Which I responded to, and those classes are no counters, here is what I wrote, which you obviously skipped:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

So back to my question: name a class please which is mobile enough and has access to reveal which can chase down a thief (even thiefs don't have reveals, but they are mobile enough to stay on target which in the hands in a more skilled player is enough).

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Calle.8746 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Not to play devils advocate, however if a wall goes down in a t3 keep, its common knowledge to do a mesmer sweep, which now involves the warclaws sniff. Should a couple people have done a Sniff, then the dot would have appeared and stealth traps would be laid.

As a thief who has done this, and someone who sweeps for mesmers/thiefs, its fairly easy.

No one has issues with mesmers in todays meta.

Yes, the best/only counter to thief is another thief, we know. So that's balanced then?

Pretty sure a sic em pewpew ranger also counters thieves, as do anyone with decent AoE (esp aoe condi)

Sick em' only work if you can target the thief, wich is not possible while they're in stealth. AoE condi is pretty useless thanks to "Shadow's Embrace" wich removes condi while in stealth.

Not everyone runs that, believe me, and the rate which the condis are removed are not that fastAlso necro (core) has an aoe tether/reveal that apparently (from experience) you dont need to see them, just need to be within a vicinity.Theres counter play for everything,just need to know it and utilize it.

So we are down to 1 class (if we let sic em ranger slide, since they actually need vision first) AND cherry picking what traits and skills the thief does not run? Hint: the if the thief does not WANT to be found, guess which traits and abilities he will be using?

Pretty weak defense guys. My suggestion, pray Arenanet balance things against stealth and not other things like mobility. One of both would make the class unplayable in all content, the other would simply address issues about perma stealthing thiefs. I know what I would pick if I had to make a choice as thief (that is unless you believe Arenanet will let this go on forever, which they very well might do, WvW seeing all the attention it does).

You didn't respond to what I said at all, you just dismissed it so ill say it again. If I'm perma stealthing, my trait and skill options are limited in terms of what's viable without advertising that I'm there. Shadow Refuge? Giant AoE that gives me away, same with Smoke Screen. Rifle Kneel 4 often gives me away because of my character talking and letting everyone know I'm around, and even one of my best methods by marking a random NPC can sound d the alarm because they're got my DE mark effect and debuff on them, and if they saw me at any point then they'll stand in combat form from trying to rush to me, giving me away in the area.

Yes, I dismissed them because your arguments are nonsense.

Once stealth is stacked up, you have long stealth windows to reposition and use those fields and visible stealth options to stack stealth up again. That is without even talking about dropping a portal, leaving the objective, stacking stealth up and moving back in. Sorry but your argument might be viable if EVERY stealth option on a DE cause some visible effect, but given you can stack enough stealth without visible effects to easily transition 5,000 range or more (if using Shadowstep), I call bollocks.

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:The main issue you seem to have is you're assuming I'm just as slippery as a DD thief running Shadow Step, Unhindered Combatant, Shortbow and DD heal for extra endurance. I've got literally one of those things and it's Shortbow. I'm MUCH slower than any other thief build by far. Shiro revs have as much chase potential as they want because they'll get their port back around the same time I can SB5 again and they have more range and ignore LoS while having a reveal in Glint and extra chase options with offhand sword and S3. Rangers can burst me down with LB from 1500 range and have plenty of immobilize to ruin my day since I can't cleanse it nearly as easily. Heck, even Mimic Blink Mesmers with GS can keep up at first, Burn Guards with Judges Intervention and a sword they swap to for the teleport can kill me with burns since my cleanse is terrible, DH can stop me dead in my tracks with an elite trap if I step on one or pull me with F1, Rocket Boots Engi has great chase at first if they can get close to me, and everyone can chase me on a mount and always knows where I'm at because I'm marked on minimap.

I'm not assuming you are slippery as a DD thief. I am literally saying it does not matter, because even with being less slippery, there is NO other class to match the movement on any build WITH reveal available. You don't need to be as mobile as a DD thief to outpace any other class.

Shiro revs have 1 reveal on Glint which any DE can just Shadow Meld out of IF they are even hit (given the 600 range, which is barely enough to even cover a Shadow Refuge when you are standing right on top of it). Rangers don't burst things they can't see, and 1,500 range is nothing when 1 Shadowstep+anything gets you to 1,500+ range (assuming you are at point blank range of the ranger to begin with, which is unlikely).

If you are hit or step into any of the other mentioned effects, you are just a terrible thief. Sorry but a good thief will map his movements and see those things beforehand. You are just grasping at straws here, sorry.

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:Before you go 'But Stealth!', use a reveal trap. It quite literally gives me ONE option and it's running away, which I've already explained I'm far less capable at doing with the skills I need to keep stealth up and my stun break options are terrible if I can't portal out. Once I'm revealed for prolonged periods from stealth traps, the thing that keeps me alive more than anything is Nomad gear with Rebirth runes to make me extra tanky and have a second chance before dying with the barrier.

Yes, those traps work wonders on desert border and the size of those keeps. Also at 1 trap per player limit, it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to use these efficiently unless you have multiple players place them, while having reveal available, while having classes fast enough to chase down the thief.

So, again: how is this balanced?

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:It's annoying to deal with me before revealing, but literally everyone has access to the hardest counter to my build which is Stealth Traps. If people drop a few of them in areas I want to hide in, or in tight chokes I have no choice crossing if I'm moving away from people, I'm gonna hit one. Once that happens, I'm a wet noodle thief with no damage, subpar mobility, and a bunch of useless utility skills.

It's not annoying, it's unbalanced. You literally state that the best counter to this is either bring a thief, or a quantity of more players. Many non thief players do not consider these options in any way balanced. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think balance means 1 for 1, but if you need this much additional attention to counter this, it just might be unbalanced.

If servers or players do not sweep, fine. That is on them and a thief staying inside just like any mesmer should exploit that. But making it this difficult for a squad or more players to deal with 1 player (not factoring for the huge amount of supplies even required) is just off. When we swipe for players inside, there should be a possibility to, within a reasonable amount of effort and resources, clear an objective of enemy players. That's called balance.

You might notice that there is also no issue with mesmer here, even though they have the far more dangerous portal. Take a guess as to why that is.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@pninak.1069 said:why would a mes carry blink and mimic? I can see that some players use mimic as an escape option, but using mimic together with blink cripples your combat abilities. so why go for a chase build that isn't even able kill the person being chased? most classes won't go for fastest way of porting/running, because having enough dmg to take down the perticular build is more important. I mean sure they got the option to play like this, but no-one else out of thief really profits out of this.

In the context of what I'm describing, I have no combat capabilities, mimic and blink are for the sake of trying to catch me since I'm far less mobile. I know this setup for mesmer isn't used in any situation beyond this, but swapping skills for a specific situation happens all the time. Scorpion Wire sucks but ill slot it if I think i can get a cheeky pull on someone on a wall.

[Cyninja.2954]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@pninak.1069 said:why would a mes carry blink and mimic? I can see that some players use mimic as an escape option, but using mimic together with blink cripples your combat abilities. so why go for a chase build that isn't even able kill the person being chased? most classes won't go for fastest way of porting/running, because having enough dmg to take down the perticular build is more important. I mean sure they got the option to play like this, but no-one else out of thief really profits out of this.

In the context of what I'm describing, I have no combat capabilities, mimic and blink are for the sake of trying to catch me since I'm far less mobile. I know this setup for mesmer isn't used in any situation beyond this, but swapping skills for a specific situation happens all the time. Scorpion Wire sucks but ill slot it if I think i can get a cheeky pull on someone on a wall.

What he is saying is: with those abilities slotted, the mesmer will catch up, and then hit like a wet noodle, on a highly evasive target, which can restealth (mesmer has no reveal available) to just then disengage.

Oh and given the cooldowns on those 2 abilities, especially mimic, the mesmer can do this 1nce every 1.5 minutes. Very balanced.

[saerni.2584]

Sure, keep ignoring the fact that this doesn’t actually happen in real game play. Let’s go even further into why this doesn’t happen.

To get into a keep you need to break into inner with a team. You are probably in combat on a non-permastealth build. Why? Because you are probably looking to secure kills and permastealth takes too long in a fast paced group fight. Next, you are assuming that the group loses the fight for the keep and the thief decides to pull back to get out of combat, so they can swap to a stealth portal build. They were in inner and need to pull back to outer to get out of combat (and avoid getting spotted by defenders who smartly went to seal outer to prevent reinforcements. This means the thief may never get out of combat and just die or be forced to run away without portal back to inner. Next, let’s assume the thief manages to do this and return to inner. There are still a lot of successful defenders around, visual cues are going to give the thief away fast.

But let’s say they find a really nice corner and can start portal jumping back and forth. All while maintaining stealth and not getting seen doing that. Ok, now they need to keep it up long enough to avoid the defenders repairing and sweeping noticing.

Next, the thief has to wait for a group of decent size to make their way across the map to a few ideal spots on the map for a portal into inner from an outer wall/gate. Scouts and groups of players may actively interfere with that group trying again so easily. They just broke into a keep after all. So you can expect a scout to keep an eye out and let people know the group is heading back to try again.

So here this thief is, staying in stealth and avoiding potential reveals all while waiting for reinforcements. Reinforcements that may not come for a while if at all. And assuming, after all that, the thief gets a group inside there is still the “small” matter of getting spotted and getting wiped again. It’s hard to get reinforcements mid combat without any walls down.

1. Scouting.
2. Profession specific abilities to reveal and chase people down.
3. Target painters.
4. Target painter traps.

TLDR: People are looking at a “on paper” scenario that doesn’t happen in real gameplay. Someone who can pull this off consistently is either fighting an empty server or is part of a highly organized group that can take objectives like a keep quickly without needing to piggyback off a larger Zerg to open the way for them.

And my point still stands about flipping keeps after they are captured. AoE marked for 5 minutes. You don’t need to bring reveal. Just some DPS.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Calle.8746 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Calle.8746 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Let me get this right.

So your keep gets broken into, both outer and inner. Which you see because you are involved in the fight to defend. Then a thief who stayed behind spends 30 minutes stacking stealth and avoiding reveals from any number of people who are trying to catch them. Which, is because they lost the fight to take the keep and presumably are decently outnumbered.

Then, after some time, up to 30 minutes of stealth stacking and avoiding reveals later they manage to bring some allies using Shadow Portal into inner. And then that group manages to beat the keep lord without anyone knowing about it.

When did this happen or did you just dream it up?

Lol are you kitten me? Avoiding reveals are easy as hell. And since when is WvW about the entire group trying to find 1 stealthing thief? This happens on a weekly baisis. I even do it on my thief whenever I play it.

So you don’t sweep for thief and Mesmer after? Like, sure, one reveal is easy. Several over the span of 10 seconds will be much much harder to stick around and stay alive.

If you can’t be bothered then that thief and the group deserve that cap imo.

No one what so ever has said anything about mesmer. Dont even try to compare the 2. I have no problem with mesmer at all. Sure they can hide but are easily found with "Sniff" or by just running around.

A completely different story when it comes to thieves who are permanetly invisible. And unless an entire zerg is chasing after me when I play my thief I wont be found. Doesn't matter the amount of reveal they have. Avoiding it is easy. You honestly just sound like a pathetic thief main who enjoy abusing broken mechanics because you lack skill.

Stop trying to justify broken mechanics.

If that Zerg was smart, they would use stealth traps all over the place. I'll file what you said under 'Things That Didn't Happen'.

Yes, have an entire squad drop 50 stealth reveal traps (which even at the low cost of 5 per trap, drains up to 250 supply). Which also only work IF you chase a Deadeye into it in the first place. Even that is hardly balanced. There is NO other class which would demand this amount of supply waste/usage.

Meanwhile, a good Deadeye is either portaling out of the keep and back in. Skillfully evading the few warrior/engineers with their long reveal cooldowns and IF caught, using Shadow Meld to re-stealth and escape (and if he has half a brain, avoid earlier placed traps unless he has the memory of an amoeba and the perception of a piece of wood).

Sorry, but if you hare having issues as DE to not remain in a keep, you are just bad at your class.

I actually don't have issues remaining in keeps because of a few easy tricks. Cast portal on inner right next to the spawn gates, run away to get out of Marked territory, port as soon as the CD is almost up and replace portal, repeat.

If I get caught and people try to place traps and damage on my portal spot, I have an ally go in first to be my damage sponge, drop portal and run away again.

It's not hard, but what am I actually accomplishing? Being a pest, that's it. It's literally what my job there is since I don't have 20 person portals and I don't often have mesmers on hand to do that for me. If I manage to outsmart a map blob and get a few people in to quick flip something, then I say I earned it because they didn't pay attention. They can usually take it back anyway because we didn't have the numbers to defend it in the first place.

Also, Nomad gear and Rebirth runes because I like not dying but still doing 5k on Death's Judgment for some reason.

So, you basically admit that a good thief, and DE especially, has no issue to remain in an objective indefinitely, but then see no issue with it?

Stop looking at this game from a "oh we flip T0 objectives" all day long, but from an actual "we have a built out T3 objectives and all 3 sides have been sieging up the entire day to get ready for prime time". Especially on EU, WvW is not as dead as it is on NA outside of T5 (and even T5 sees some action at current player numbers).

That "portal issue", good thing public squads can bring mesmers then isn't it?

I have looked at it from that perspective too. If anyone gets to lord on a T3 objective we own, I assume there is a stealth thief inside before I don't. I know where the best hiding spots are and I always stress to sweep and use stealth traps.

Here's why I say it's fair game; it's not impossible to catch me. If they know I'm there, the only way I can reliably get away is if it's my own spawn keep and I run to the safe zone. DE is nowhere near as fast as DD and even with Shortbow, it's not hard to keep up with me. The moment I can't stealth, I'm in trouble, and if I use my portal to escape and they find me because I'm marked on their minimap, I have no choice but to bail out. I have little kill power besides DJ which reveals me and isn't exactly reliable vs awake players, and I have almost no stun breaks if I want to hold stealth and not leave giant AoEs giving me away. Shiro revs, other non DE thieves, and rangers can often keep up with me or just pew pew me from behind.

My biggest asset is not being seen, the moment they know im there, there are ways to stop me and stealth traps are often how it happens because it quite literally turns my build off.

Nobody said it's impossible to catch a thief. The question and argument raised is:

is the effort required balanced

with the current thief skill set and counter skill set on other classes or versus stealth?

Also, DE, while less mobile than a DD is still a thief, and still vastly more mobile than 8 other classes in this game.

Exactly, the moment you can't stealth. So let's address that then, that's what this topic is about. The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

Like I said earlier, people don't put in the effort and that's really the biggest problem for any server losing their stuff. If they don't have coverage, then thieves or mesmers aren't the problem for them. You also might have read that post you quoted but you glossed over it because they pretty much told you how to catch that DE and it wouldn't take much, but you're still claiming it's some massive effort when it's not. I don't know what to tell you, you have the same utility budget as they do and can either counter their focus or you can stick with whatever you have to run around with blobs or whatever.

Name 1 class which can both reveal and chase down a thief which does not want to get caught, besides another thief.

I don't have to, that post you quoted before that you mostly ignored named some. Also, it's less about the class and more about what you're willing to do with your build, what you're willing to take on your utility bar or in your inventory, and what the guild claiming the structure is willing to manage and hopefully the server has a culture of taking care of their stuff.

Which I responded to, and those classes are no counters, here is what I wrote, which you obviously skipped:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

So back to my question: name a class please which is mobile enough and has access to reveal which can chase down a thief (even thiefs don't have reveals, but they are mobile enough to stay on target which in the hands in a more skilled player is enough).

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Calle.8746 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Not to play devils advocate, however if a wall goes down in a t3 keep, its common knowledge to do a mesmer sweep, which now involves the warclaws sniff. Should a couple people have done a Sniff, then the dot would have appeared and stealth traps would be laid.

As a thief who has done this, and someone who sweeps for mesmers/thiefs, its fairly easy.

No one has issues with mesmers in todays meta.

Yes, the best/only counter to thief is another thief, we know. So that's balanced then?

Pretty sure a sic em pewpew ranger also counters thieves, as do anyone with decent AoE (esp aoe condi)

Sick em' only work if you can target the thief, wich is not possible while they're in stealth. AoE condi is pretty useless thanks to "Shadow's Embrace" wich removes condi while in stealth.

Not everyone runs that, believe me, and the rate which the condis are removed are not that fastAlso necro (core) has an aoe tether/reveal that apparently (from experience) you dont need to see them, just need to be within a vicinity.Theres counter play for everything,just need to know it and utilize it.

So we are down to 1 class (if we let sic em ranger slide, since they actually need vision first) AND cherry picking what traits and skills the thief does not run? Hint: the if the thief does not WANT to be found, guess which traits and abilities he will be using?

Pretty weak defense guys. My suggestion, pray Arenanet balance things against stealth and not other things like mobility. One of both would make the class unplayable in all content, the other would simply address issues about perma stealthing thiefs. I know what I would pick if I had to make a choice as thief (that is unless you believe Arenanet will let this go on forever, which they very well might do, WvW seeing all the attention it does).

You didn't respond to what I said at all, you just dismissed it so ill say it again. If I'm perma stealthing, my trait and skill options are limited in terms of what's viable without advertising that I'm there. Shadow Refuge? Giant AoE that gives me away, same with Smoke Screen. Rifle Kneel 4 often gives me away because of my character talking and letting everyone know I'm around, and even one of my best methods by marking a random NPC can sound d the alarm because they're got my DE mark effect and debuff on them, and if they saw me at any point then they'll stand in combat form from trying to rush to me, giving me away in the area.

Yes, I dismissed them because your arguments are nonsense.

Once stealth is stacked up, you have long stealth windows to reposition and use those fields and visible stealth options to stack stealth up again. That is without even talking about dropping a portal, leaving the objective, stacking stealth up and moving back in. Sorry but your argument might be viable if EVERY stealth option on a DE cause some visible effect, but given you can stack enough stealth without visible effects to easily transition 5,000 range or more (if using Shadowstep), I call kitten.

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:The main issue you seem to have is you're assuming I'm just as slippery as a DD thief running Shadow Step, Unhindered Combatant, Shortbow and DD heal for extra endurance. I've got literally one of those things and it's Shortbow. I'm MUCH slower than any other thief build by far. Shiro revs have as much chase potential as they want because they'll get their port back around the same time I can SB5 again and they have more range and ignore LoS while having a reveal in Glint and extra chase options with offhand sword and S3. Rangers can burst me down with LB from 1500 range and have plenty of immobilize to ruin my day since I can't cleanse it nearly as easily. Heck, even Mimic Blink Mesmers with GS can keep up at first, Burn Guards with Judges Intervention and a sword they swap to for the teleport can kill me with burns since my cleanse is terrible, DH can stop me dead in my tracks with an elite trap if I step on one or pull me with F1, Rocket Boots Engi has great chase at first if they can get close to me, and everyone can chase me on a mount and always knows where I'm at because I'm marked on minimap.

I'm not assuming you are slippery as a DD thief. I am literally saying it does not matter, because even with being less slippery, there is NO other class to match the movement on any build WITH reveal available. You don't need to be as mobile as a DD thief to outpace any other class.

Shiro revs have 1 reveal on Glint which any DE can just Shadow Meld out of IF they are even hit (given the 600 range, which is barely enough to even cover a Shadow Refuge when you are standing right on top of it). Rangers don't burst things they can't see, and 1,500 range is nothing when 1 Shadowstep+anything gets you to 1,500+ range (assuming you are at point blank range of the ranger to begin with, which is unlikely).

If you are hit or step into any of the other mentioned effects, you are just a terrible thief. Sorry but a good thief will map his movements and see those things beforehand. You are just grasping at straws here, sorry.

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:Before you go 'But Stealth!', use a reveal trap. It quite literally gives me ONE option and it's running away, which I've already explained I'm far less capable at doing with the skills I need to keep stealth up and my stun break options are terrible if I can't portal out. Once I'm revealed for prolonged periods from stealth traps, the thing that keeps me alive more than anything is Nomad gear with Rebirth runes to make me extra tanky and have a second chance before dying with the barrier.

Yes, those traps work wonders on desert border and the size of those keeps. Also at 1 trap per player limit, it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to use these efficiently unless you have multiple players place them, while having reveal available, while having classes fast enough to chase down the thief.

So, again: how is this balanced?

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:It's annoying to deal with me before revealing, but literally everyone has access to the hardest counter to my build which is Stealth Traps. If people drop a few of them in areas I want to hide in, or in tight chokes I have no choice crossing if I'm moving away from people, I'm gonna hit one. Once that happens, I'm a wet noodle thief with no damage, subpar mobility, and a bunch of useless utility skills.

It's not annoying, it's unbalanced. You literally state that the best counter to this is either bring a thief, or a quantity of more players. Many non thief players do not consider these options in any way balanced. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think balance means 1 for 1, but if you need this much additional attention to counter this, it just might be unbalanced.

If servers or players do not sweep, fine. That is on them and a thief staying inside just like any mesmer should exploit that. But making it this difficult for a squad or more players to deal with 1 player (not factoring for the huge amount of supplies even required) is just off. When we swipe for players inside, there should be a possibility to, within a reasonable amount of effort and resources, clear an objective of enemy players. That's called balance.

You might notice that there is also no issue with mesmer here, even though they have the far more dangerous portal. Take a guess as to why that is.

You don't seem to understand, once I hit a stealth trap, I'm revealed for a prolonged period of time. No one needs to bring reveals during that time, just catch me which isn't that hard because I can't stealth and can't fight. Stop exaggerating how hard it is to catch this build, just because a counter build of the same class with the best mobility in the game is the best option to catch me doesn't mean it's the only one by any means. You act like just because I'm a thief that I never have to sacrifice on mobility to stay permanently stealthed or that nothing is capable of keeping up unless they're a max mobility thief. Classes aren't generally as slow as you're exaggerating them to be besides necro, especially not with a mount being available to literally everyone.

In truth, you do understand these things but are the one actually grasping at straws. I map my movements just fine, but any honest person knows not everything goes as planned and people can come up with solutions around it, which I've stated multiple times but you just keep complaining they're hard to use or can't coordinate with people to use effectively. That's your problem, not mine.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@pninak.1069 said:why would a mes carry blink and mimic? I can see that some players use mimic as an escape option, but using mimic together with blink cripples your combat abilities. so why go for a chase build that isn't even able kill the person being chased? most classes won't go for fastest way of porting/running, because having enough dmg to take down the perticular build is more important. I mean sure they got the option to play like this, but no-one else out of thief really profits out of this.

In the context of what I'm describing, I have no combat capabilities, mimic and blink are for the sake of trying to catch me since I'm far less mobile. I know this setup for mesmer isn't used in any situation beyond this, but swapping skills for a specific situation happens all the time. Scorpion Wire sucks but ill slot it if I think i can get a cheeky pull on someone on a wall.

What he is saying is: with those abilities slotted, the mesmer will catch up, and then hit like a wet noodle, on a highly evasive target, which can restealth (mesmer has no reveal available) to just then disengage.

Oh and given the cooldowns on those 2 abilities, especially mimic, the mesmer can do this 1nce every 1.5 minutes. Very balanced.

Highly evasive? I'm probably the least mobile build there is for a Thief, and once again you just ignore that a single stealth trap prevents me from stealthing for prolonged periods, I can't just remove reveal and restealth because i will just get revealed again. That the scenario im talking about; how you can catch me when I can't stealth on an average mobility build at best. Keep arguing dishonestly though.

[Cyninja.2954]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Calle.8746 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Calle.8746 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Let me get this right.

So your keep gets broken into, both outer and inner. Which you see because you are involved in the fight to defend. Then a thief who stayed behind spends 30 minutes stacking stealth and avoiding reveals from any number of people who are trying to catch them. Which, is because they lost the fight to take the keep and presumably are decently outnumbered.

Then, after some time, up to 30 minutes of stealth stacking and avoiding reveals later they manage to bring some allies using Shadow Portal into inner. And then that group manages to beat the keep lord without anyone knowing about it.

When did this happen or did you just dream it up?

Lol are you kitten me? Avoiding reveals are easy as hell. And since when is WvW about the entire group trying to find 1 stealthing thief? This happens on a weekly baisis. I even do it on my thief whenever I play it.

So you don’t sweep for thief and Mesmer after? Like, sure, one reveal is easy. Several over the span of 10 seconds will be much much harder to stick around and stay alive.

If you can’t be bothered then that thief and the group deserve that cap imo.

No one what so ever has said anything about mesmer. Dont even try to compare the 2. I have no problem with mesmer at all. Sure they can hide but are easily found with "Sniff" or by just running around.

A completely different story when it comes to thieves who are permanetly invisible. And unless an entire zerg is chasing after me when I play my thief I wont be found. Doesn't matter the amount of reveal they have. Avoiding it is easy. You honestly just sound like a pathetic thief main who enjoy abusing broken mechanics because you lack skill.

Stop trying to justify broken mechanics.

If that Zerg was smart, they would use stealth traps all over the place. I'll file what you said under 'Things That Didn't Happen'.

Yes, have an entire squad drop 50 stealth reveal traps (which even at the low cost of 5 per trap, drains up to 250 supply). Which also only work IF you chase a Deadeye into it in the first place. Even that is hardly balanced. There is NO other class which would demand this amount of supply waste/usage.

Meanwhile, a good Deadeye is either portaling out of the keep and back in. Skillfully evading the few warrior/engineers with their long reveal cooldowns and IF caught, using Shadow Meld to re-stealth and escape (and if he has half a brain, avoid earlier placed traps unless he has the memory of an amoeba and the perception of a piece of wood).

Sorry, but if you hare having issues as DE to not remain in a keep, you are just bad at your class.

I actually don't have issues remaining in keeps because of a few easy tricks. Cast portal on inner right next to the spawn gates, run away to get out of Marked territory, port as soon as the CD is almost up and replace portal, repeat.

If I get caught and people try to place traps and damage on my portal spot, I have an ally go in first to be my damage sponge, drop portal and run away again.

It's not hard, but what am I actually accomplishing? Being a pest, that's it. It's literally what my job there is since I don't have 20 person portals and I don't often have mesmers on hand to do that for me. If I manage to outsmart a map blob and get a few people in to quick flip something, then I say I earned it because they didn't pay attention. They can usually take it back anyway because we didn't have the numbers to defend it in the first place.

Also, Nomad gear and Rebirth runes because I like not dying but still doing 5k on Death's Judgment for some reason.

So, you basically admit that a good thief, and DE especially, has no issue to remain in an objective indefinitely, but then see no issue with it?

Stop looking at this game from a "oh we flip T0 objectives" all day long, but from an actual "we have a built out T3 objectives and all 3 sides have been sieging up the entire day to get ready for prime time". Especially on EU, WvW is not as dead as it is on NA outside of T5 (and even T5 sees some action at current player numbers).

That "portal issue", good thing public squads can bring mesmers then isn't it?

I have looked at it from that perspective too. If anyone gets to lord on a T3 objective we own, I assume there is a stealth thief inside before I don't. I know where the best hiding spots are and I always stress to sweep and use stealth traps.

Here's why I say it's fair game; it's not impossible to catch me. If they know I'm there, the only way I can reliably get away is if it's my own spawn keep and I run to the safe zone. DE is nowhere near as fast as DD and even with Shortbow, it's not hard to keep up with me. The moment I can't stealth, I'm in trouble, and if I use my portal to escape and they find me because I'm marked on their minimap, I have no choice but to bail out. I have little kill power besides DJ which reveals me and isn't exactly reliable vs awake players, and I have almost no stun breaks if I want to hold stealth and not leave giant AoEs giving me away. Shiro revs, other non DE thieves, and rangers can often keep up with me or just pew pew me from behind.

My biggest asset is not being seen, the moment they know im there, there are ways to stop me and stealth traps are often how it happens because it quite literally turns my build off.

Nobody said it's impossible to catch a thief. The question and argument raised is:

is the effort required balanced

with the current thief skill set and counter skill set on other classes or versus stealth?

Also, DE, while less mobile than a DD is still a thief, and still vastly more mobile than 8 other classes in this game.

Exactly, the moment you can't stealth. So let's address that then, that's what this topic is about. The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

Like I said earlier, people don't put in the effort and that's really the biggest problem for any server losing their stuff. If they don't have coverage, then thieves or mesmers aren't the problem for them. You also might have read that post you quoted but you glossed over it because they pretty much told you how to catch that DE and it wouldn't take much, but you're still claiming it's some massive effort when it's not. I don't know what to tell you, you have the same utility budget as they do and can either counter their focus or you can stick with whatever you have to run around with blobs or whatever.

Name 1 class which can both reveal and chase down a thief which does not want to get caught, besides another thief.

I don't have to, that post you quoted before that you mostly ignored named some. Also, it's less about the class and more about what you're willing to do with your build, what you're willing to take on your utility bar or in your inventory, and what the guild claiming the structure is willing to manage and hopefully the server has a culture of taking care of their stuff.

Which I responded to, and those classes are no counters, here is what I wrote, which you obviously skipped:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

So back to my question: name a class please which is mobile enough and has access to reveal which can chase down a thief (even thiefs don't have reveals, but they are mobile enough to stay on target which in the hands in a more skilled player is enough).

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Calle.8746 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Not to play devils advocate, however if a wall goes down in a t3 keep, its common knowledge to do a mesmer sweep, which now involves the warclaws sniff. Should a couple people have done a Sniff, then the dot would have appeared and stealth traps would be laid.

As a thief who has done this, and someone who sweeps for mesmers/thiefs, its fairly easy.

No one has issues with mesmers in todays meta.

Yes, the best/only counter to thief is another thief, we know. So that's balanced then?

Pretty sure a sic em pewpew ranger also counters thieves, as do anyone with decent AoE (esp aoe condi)

Sick em' only work if you can target the thief, wich is not possible while they're in stealth. AoE condi is pretty useless thanks to "Shadow's Embrace" wich removes condi while in stealth.

Not everyone runs that, believe me, and the rate which the condis are removed are not that fastAlso necro (core) has an aoe tether/reveal that apparently (from experience) you dont need to see them, just need to be within a vicinity.Theres counter play for everything,just need to know it and utilize it.

So we are down to 1 class (if we let sic em ranger slide, since they actually need vision first) AND cherry picking what traits and skills the thief does not run? Hint: the if the thief does not WANT to be found, guess which traits and abilities he will be using?

Pretty weak defense guys. My suggestion, pray Arenanet balance things against stealth and not other things like mobility. One of both would make the class unplayable in all content, the other would simply address issues about perma stealthing thiefs. I know what I would pick if I had to make a choice as thief (that is unless you believe Arenanet will let this go on forever, which they very well might do, WvW seeing all the attention it does).

You didn't respond to what I said at all, you just dismissed it so ill say it again. If I'm perma stealthing, my trait and skill options are limited in terms of what's viable without advertising that I'm there. Shadow Refuge? Giant AoE that gives me away, same with Smoke Screen. Rifle Kneel 4 often gives me away because of my character talking and letting everyone know I'm around, and even one of my best methods by marking a random NPC can sound d the alarm because they're got my DE mark effect and debuff on them, and if they saw me at any point then they'll stand in combat form from trying to rush to me, giving me away in the area.

Yes, I dismissed them because your arguments are nonsense.

Once stealth is stacked up, you have long stealth windows to reposition and use those fields and visible stealth options to stack stealth up again. That is without even talking about dropping a portal, leaving the objective, stacking stealth up and moving back in. Sorry but your argument might be viable if EVERY stealth option on a DE cause some visible effect, but given you can stack enough stealth without visible effects to easily transition 5,000 range or more (if using Shadowstep), I call kitten.

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:The main issue you seem to have is you're assuming I'm just as slippery as a DD thief running Shadow Step, Unhindered Combatant, Shortbow and DD heal for extra endurance. I've got literally one of those things and it's Shortbow. I'm MUCH slower than any other thief build by far. Shiro revs have as much chase potential as they want because they'll get their port back around the same time I can SB5 again and they have more range and ignore LoS while having a reveal in Glint and extra chase options with offhand sword and S3. Rangers can burst me down with LB from 1500 range and have plenty of immobilize to ruin my day since I can't cleanse it nearly as easily. Heck, even Mimic Blink Mesmers with GS can keep up at first, Burn Guards with Judges Intervention and a sword they swap to for the teleport can kill me with burns since my cleanse is terrible, DH can stop me dead in my tracks with an elite trap if I step on one or pull me with F1, Rocket Boots Engi has great chase at first if they can get close to me, and everyone can chase me on a mount and always knows where I'm at because I'm marked on minimap.

I'm not assuming you are slippery as a DD thief. I am literally saying it does not matter, because even with being less slippery, there is NO other class to match the movement on any build WITH reveal available. You don't need to be as mobile as a DD thief to outpace any other class.

Shiro revs have 1 reveal on Glint which any DE can just Shadow Meld out of IF they are even hit (given the 600 range, which is barely enough to even cover a Shadow Refuge when you are standing right on top of it). Rangers don't burst things they can't see, and 1,500 range is nothing when 1 Shadowstep+anything gets you to 1,500+ range (assuming you are at point blank range of the ranger to begin with, which is unlikely).

If you are hit or step into any of the other mentioned effects, you are just a terrible thief. Sorry but a good thief will map his movements and see those things beforehand. You are just grasping at straws here, sorry.

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:Before you go 'But Stealth!', use a reveal trap. It quite literally gives me ONE option and it's running away, which I've already explained I'm far less capable at doing with the skills I need to keep stealth up and my stun break options are terrible if I can't portal out. Once I'm revealed for prolonged periods from stealth traps, the thing that keeps me alive more than anything is Nomad gear with Rebirth runes to make me extra tanky and have a second chance before dying with the barrier.

Yes, those traps work wonders on desert border and the size of those keeps. Also at 1 trap per player limit, it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to use these efficiently unless you have multiple players place them, while having reveal available, while having classes fast enough to chase down the thief.

So, again: how is this balanced?

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:It's annoying to deal with me before revealing, but literally everyone has access to the hardest counter to my build which is Stealth Traps. If people drop a few of them in areas I want to hide in, or in tight chokes I have no choice crossing if I'm moving away from people, I'm gonna hit one. Once that happens, I'm a wet noodle thief with no damage, subpar mobility, and a bunch of useless utility skills.

It's not annoying, it's unbalanced. You literally state that the best counter to this is either bring a thief, or a quantity of more players. Many non thief players do not consider these options in any way balanced. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think balance means 1 for 1, but if you need this much additional attention to counter this, it just might be unbalanced.

If servers or players do not sweep, fine. That is on them and a thief staying inside just like any mesmer should exploit that. But making it this difficult for a squad or more players to deal with 1 player (not factoring for the huge amount of supplies even required) is just off. When we swipe for players inside, there should be a possibility to, within a reasonable amount of effort and resources, clear an objective of enemy players. That's called balance.

You might notice that there is also no issue with mesmer here, even though they have the far more dangerous portal. Take a guess as to why that is.

You don't seem to understand, once I hit a stealth trap, I'm revealed for a prolonged period of time. No one needs to bring reveals during that time, just catch me which isn't that hard because I can't stealth and can't fight. Stop exaggerating how hard it is to catch this build, just because a counter build of the same class with the best mobility in the game is the best option to catch me doesn't mean it's the only one by any means. You act like just because I'm a thief that I never have to sacrifice on mobility to stay permanently stealthed or that nothing is capable of keeping up unless they're a max mobility thief. Classes aren't generally as slow as you're exaggerating them to be besides necro, especially not with a mount being available to literally everyone.

Yes, ONCE you are hit by a stealth trap. How many are needed in large structures to even get a thief to move through one? How does one pressure a thief to even make this mistake? At best with reveals.

Mount movement speed? You do realize that's around 450 in WvW, which is barely above normal swiftness out of combat. While losing access to all skills of the class. While having nothing else, against a target which has multiple movement skills and stealth. On a mount which turns like a freight train. I'm sure you were just making a joke here.

I'm not exaggerating anything. Maybe do yourself a favor and do actually pick up a class that is not a thief once in a while. Most classes do not have access to 1,200 range teleports (Shadow Step), 2x900 range teleports (12 initiative Infiltrator's arrow). It might be enlightening to realize how most classes actually behave movement wise (with maybe a Soulbeast coming close to movement of a thief).

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:In truth, you do understand these things but are the one actually grasping at straws. I map my movements just fine, but any honest person knows not everything goes as planned and people can come up with solutions around it, which I've stated multiple times but you just keep complaining they're hard to use or can't coordinate with people to use effectively. That's your problem, not mine.

Yes, the topic of this thread is that some players consider this current state unbalanced and unfun. Funny enough, the only players even remotely justifying this are thief players it seems.

[Cyninja.2954]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@pninak.1069 said:why would a mes carry blink and mimic? I can see that some players use mimic as an escape option, but using mimic together with blink cripples your combat abilities. so why go for a chase build that isn't even able kill the person being chased? most classes won't go for fastest way of porting/running, because having enough dmg to take down the perticular build is more important. I mean sure they got the option to play like this, but no-one else out of thief really profits out of this.

In the context of what I'm describing, I have no combat capabilities, mimic and blink are for the sake of trying to catch me since I'm far less mobile. I know this setup for mesmer isn't used in any situation beyond this, but swapping skills for a specific situation happens all the time. Scorpion Wire sucks but ill slot it if I think i can get a cheeky pull on someone on a wall.

What he is saying is: with those abilities slotted, the mesmer will catch up, and then hit like a wet noodle, on a highly evasive target, which can restealth (mesmer has no reveal available) to just then disengage.

Oh and given the cooldowns on those 2 abilities, especially mimic, the mesmer can do this 1nce every 1.5 minutes. Very balanced.

Highly evasive? I'm probably the least mobile build there is for a Thief, and once again you just ignore that a single stealth trap prevents me from stealthing for prolonged periods, I can't just remove reveal and restealth because i will just get revealed again. That the scenario im talking about; how you can catch me when I can't stealth on an average mobility build at best. Keep arguing dishonestly though.

Yes, the least evasive build of a thief is still more evasive/mobile than pretty much any other class. I've stated this how many times by now?

and back to the good old: just trap me argument. Yes, if only traps were falling out of the sky right in front of thiefs on a regular basis.

Maybe that scenario you are talking about is pretty hand and cherry picked, versus a class which is already not favored against a thief. Sorry, even bringing up mesmer is just sad right now. Again, mesmer can use mimic+blink every 1.1-1.2 minutes. Which allows him to cover 2,400 units. Which a thief covers almost with Shadowstep (50s cd) and 1 Infiltrator's arrow, 2nd Infiltrator's arrow to get out of range of any immobilize and most attacks. On a target which had to get revealed by a trap first. Good stuff.

[pninak.1069]

I think stealth disruptor traps serve no purpose. I tried the target painter. seems to work. pretty much both of the painter traps make the stealth disruptor pretty much obsolete. But I managed to catch a thief in a keep once only. and by the time I got him I was sure he had a buddy with him. so even if you kill a thief you might miss another one that comboed in the same fields.

[Heibi.4251]

Stealth disruptor traps are useless against a DE. Any DE traited properly basically ignores the trap. The are visible for about 1/2 a second and then gone and are not marked. So please stop acting as if the the anti-stealth traps are any good. The DE needs a MAJOR STEALTH NERF. And the portal needs to be limited to 1 person(the thief).

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I don't like the way stealth is implemented, but portals are not the problem, either on Mesmer or Thief. They are one of few interesting gameplay mechanics and allow small groups to win victories in near-impossible matchups.

Anything that benefits the underdog should be left alone.

[pninak.1069]

@Hannelore.8153 said:

Anything that benefits the underdog should be left alone.

if it wasn't about the number of players on each server. the more players you have the more likely you are to have a combo of these two. so even if there is a bigger zerg that melts keeps easily they still got the option to sneak in after a capture and do the same thing as the smaller enemy zerg.

tbh I find the idea of 3 different perma thiefs hiding in a keep and waiting for a zerg to show up hilarious. like one for each server.

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

I was in a keep as a thief and was marked and kept getting revealed after it was taken over. Does it only work in outer?

[ShadowCatz.8437]

@Bish.8627 said:Just have stealth be disabled and reveal when a keep/tower is taken for x amount of time. Honestly thief escape right now is beyond broken coupled with perma stealth.

Why does not keep or tower kick out all player when it is taken over from the other server? Wouldn't that stop Thief's/DE to use portals to use this skill to get inside?

[Qaju.2058]

@Heibi.4251 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:I may have missed in one of the past patch notes, I think Warclaw's Sniff got nerfed since the big balance patch? doesn't feel as effective as pre-patch, feels sniff loses targets quicker compare to before

Yes, the warclaw cannot detect a thief in stealth for some reason - there is no bell even. Mesmers are easy to counter, but thief is not. A DE with the trait set will go back into stealth in less than 1 second upon being revealed and will not be marked even if he/she hits a stealth trap(ANET decided to make stealth traps useless by creating a auto counter play). And the biggest and most disgusting thing is the portal that thieves were given. It completely unbalanced the class. At least a mesmer has to try to stay undetected, but a thief just has to stealth and auto stealth. Get rid of the portal and the balance will be returned and most if not all the complaints will go away. For the portal is the the most ridiculous thing ANET did.

War Claw Sniff never ever showed stealthed characters in the first place. It was by design.

@Heibi.4251 said:Stealth disruptor traps are useless against a DE. Any DE traited properly basically ignores the trap. The are visible for about 1/2 a second and then gone and are not marked. So please stop acting as if the the anti-stealth traps are any good. The DE needs a MAJOR STEALTH NERF. And the portal needs to be limited to 1 person(the thief).

You repeated the same lie twice now. And 2 other users push your propaganda too.

I have given you the benefit of the doubt if you said you didn't play any WvW since November 13 2018,but the fact that you mention the thief Shadow Portal (introduced in July 2019) means you have played since then, so why then the blatant lie?!?

Stealth Disruptor Trap which used to just reveal, got changed and renamed to Target Painter Trap on Nov 13th 2018.

Along with the tossable on the fly Target Painter, both apply an -unavoidable- (can't evade, can't remove, can't block, can't dodge) Mark effect (can't remove it) that lasts 30 seconds.

Any Marked player will immediately get shown on map as a dot, and if the marked player tries to stealth for any duration longer than and including 2 second (Detected!), gets a 5 second Revealed effect.

This Reveal is the only thing a Deadeye could remove via Shadow Meld. Doing so will immediately get you Detected! again for another 5s Revealed (and you still have the remaining Mark effect still looming over).

Apologize or get flagged.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2018-11-13#Update_-_November_13.2C_2018

[crepuscular.9047]

@aleron.1438 said:

@Heibi.4251 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:I may have missed in one of the past patch notes, I think Warclaw's Sniff got nerfed since the big balance patch? doesn't feel as effective as pre-patch, feels sniff loses targets quicker compare to before

Yes, the warclaw cannot detect a thief in stealth for some reason - there is no bell even. Mesmers are easy to counter, but thief is not. A DE with the trait set will go back into stealth in less than 1 second upon being revealed and will not be marked even if he/she hits a stealth trap(ANET decided to make stealth traps useless by creating a auto counter play). And the biggest and most disgusting thing is the portal that thieves were given. It completely unbalanced the class. At least a mesmer has to try to stay undetected, but a thief just has to stealth and auto stealth. Get rid of the portal and the balance will be returned and most if not all the complaints will go away. For the portal is the the most ridiculous thing ANET did.

War Claw Sniff never ever showed stealthed characters in the first place. It was by design.

I thought it does, what the fuck is the point of the skills if it can't track down hidden enemies by smell; it picking up dead enemies is also stupid

[primatos.5413]

Things that favour the smaller grps alsways count for the larger ones too . Anet will never be able to change this.. but let me tell u: you can do fine and sneaky things without any portal or stealth ;)

[Heibi.4251]

@aleron.1438 said:

@Heibi.4251 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:I may have missed in one of the past patch notes, I think Warclaw's Sniff got nerfed since the big balance patch? doesn't feel as effective as pre-patch, feels sniff loses targets quicker compare to before

Yes, the warclaw cannot detect a thief in stealth for some reason - there is no bell even. Mesmers are easy to counter, but thief is not. A DE with the trait set will go back into stealth in less than 1 second upon being revealed and will not be marked even if he/she hits a stealth trap(ANET decided to make stealth traps useless by creating a auto counter play). And the biggest and most disgusting thing is the portal that thieves were given. It completely unbalanced the class. At least a mesmer has to try to stay undetected, but a thief just has to stealth and auto stealth. Get rid of the portal and the balance will be returned and most if not all the complaints will go away. For the portal is the the most ridiculous thing ANET did.

War Claw Sniff never ever showed stealthed characters in the first place. It was by design.

@Heibi.4251 said:Stealth disruptor traps are useless against a DE. Any DE traited properly basically ignores the trap. The are visible for about 1/2 a second and then gone and are not marked. So please stop acting as if the the anti-stealth traps are any good. The DE needs a MAJOR STEALTH NERF. And the portal needs to be limited to 1 person(the thief).

You repeated the same lie twice now. And 2 other users push your propaganda too.

I have given you the benefit of the doubt if you said you didn't play any WvW since November 13 2018,but the fact that you mention the thief Shadow Portal (introduced in July 2019) means you have played since then, so why then the blatant lie?!?

Stealth Disruptor Trap which used to just reveal, got changed and renamed to Target Painter Trap on Nov 13th 2018.

Along with the tossable on the fly Target Painter, both apply an -unavoidable- (can't evade, can't remove, can't block, can't dodge) Mark effect (can't remove it) that lasts 30 seconds.

Any Marked player will immediately get shown on map as a dot, and if the marked player tries to stealth for any duration longer than and including 2 second (Detected!), gets a 5 second Revealed effect.

This Reveal is the only thing a Deadeye could remove via Shadow Meld. Doing so will immediately get you Detected! again for another 5s Revealed (and you still have the remaining Mark effect still looming over).

Apologize or get flagged.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2018-11-13#Update_-_November_13.2C_2018

Sorry this is not a lie. I've used target painter traps many times. And as soon as a DE hits one he goes back into stealth immediately and is not marked. Doesn't matter what the text says on their use - they are not working as written. So I will not apologize for something I've seen happen over and over again in WvW. The only part that might apply is if the DE was already visible and got marked. But if a stealthed DE hits one and is properly traited(like I said) they immediately go back into stealth and ignore the text of the trap.

[pninak.1069]

oh I didn't know that stealth disuptor trap got renamed. I thought the other two traps got added later. then I dunno which one of the two traps I used, because I think one of them could work differently to the other. the fact that both of them got a very similiar doesn't make it easier.