Dagger/Dagger. Core or Tempest?

[aaron.7850]

This is for wvw roaming and open-world pve.

Just got my ele to 80, I leveled as dagger/dagger. After playing easy classes ele was a truly challenge, but I finally got the feel of it.I unlocked weaver elite spec and to my dismay the dual-weaving mechanic pretty much destroyed everything I knew about ele, its like everything I memorized up until this point didn't matter.So that leaves me with core and tempest. Tempest seems fun but it seems that a lot of those traits will go to waste because I intend to roam solo, is this trully the case?

[Jski.6180]

D/d ele is ok for 1v1 but for roaming it just cant get over hits from more then one person so i suggest going tempest.

[Stallic.2397]

Tempest most likely will work better with off hand dagger. The overloads can provide you the defense off hand dagger doesn't. Overloads grant stability, projectile hate, and easy cleanse from water overload. If you're dagger/focus however, you could easily use Core or Weaver.

[steki.1478]

D/d requires fast paced combat to combo your fields with blasts and your burst skills from different attunements aka something that tempest denies due to long waiting time in same attunement. I'd also never roam on tempest outside of support build because overloads are useless for the most part (unless you play some gimmick condi build and start combat with earth overload>flash> quick burn burst).

[Jski.6180]

@steki.1478 said:D/d requires fast paced combat to combo your fields with blasts and your burst skills from different attunements aka something that tempest denies due to long waiting time in same attunement. I'd also never roam on tempest outside of support build because overloads are useless for the most part (unless you play some gimmick condi build and start combat with earth overload>flash> quick burn burst).

You just have field fire sadly maybe if you had a water or frost field on off hand dagger i get what your saying but the lack of it realty hold core d/d back.

[Yasai.3549]

Core if yu want any chance of actually killing people.Tempest to omega troll people.

[fuzzyp.6295]

Open world PvE I'd suggest Tempest. The overloads are nice extra DPS and can help clean up large mobs. I personally think Fresh Air tempest builds are really fun, and they can work with Dagger in PvE. Lots of attuning quickly back to Air. However its not particularly optimal, running off hand Warhorn is probably better for PvE. Core Ele is pretty much outclassed by Tempest and Weaver in all regards, but in PvE it really is just up to you and how you feel. As long as you aren't running end game fractals or raids, you can just play whatever feels nice.

Now onto WvW. Never run tempest with D/D in WvW. Unless you are going for an unkillable tank to hold onto points until your friends show up, you are just gimping yourself. Overloads aren't all that good against decent players (let alone good roamers) and the Aura traits you gain are too supportive when you are already going to be likely investing into Water. While its possible to trait your Tempest line to ignore overloads and auras, I ask you then what is the point of even taking Tempest to begin with. Its' not good for serious roaming, unless you are planning to play support. Tempest IS good right now for support roaming, it can really clean up those condis floating around right now. But solo roaming, hard pass.

Core D/D is better. And by better, I mean, its less bad. Core D/D hasn't been in a really great place for a few years now. You can have success with it, but don't expect to be able to win crazy fights. It lacks the sustain and damage of Weaver, trading that for higher mobility and flexibility. And, in 2020 the mobility offered by Core D/D right now is really nothing to write home about. However, it is still incredibly fun to run. I run core D/D all the time and I acknowledge that it is in no way better than anything Weaver can offer. You will want to take Fire/Water/Arcane for best survivabilty. Blinding Ashes is a godsend and if you can maintain your might stacking (which should be no problem on core ele) you can really take advantage of Power Overwhelming. IF condis are an issue, swap Power Overwhelming for Smothering Auras and you're good to go, its a good condi-cleasne. If you're dueling and want more single target damage in a 1v1, you can swap out Fire for Air, air is incredibly in 1v1 on Core but you trade off alot of personal sustain for it. Celestial is a great stat you wanna focus on if you don't already have trinkets with it. You will have to mix and match alot of armor stats till you find a combo that works with you. Pick up a set of Durability Runes and Divinity Runes, both are pretty much meta for Core D/D roaming although there are others out there that works as well. Mist, Flash and Armor of Earth are your utilities.

The best piece of advice I can give you though is that If you're serious about roaming as a Ele, highly recommend practicing with Weaver. Get some tanky condi gear in PvE and play with your rotations till you get the feel of how the dual-wielding attunements work. Weaver can roam infinitely better than either Tempest or Core right now.

[Runefallen.5293]

FRESH AIR ;)

tempest

[aaron.7850]

@fuzzyp.6295 said:Open world PvE I'd suggest Tempest. The overloads are nice extra DPS and can help clean up large mobs. I personally think Fresh Air tempest builds are really fun, and they can work with Dagger in PvE. Lots of attuning quickly back to Air. However its not particularly optimal, running off hand Warhorn is probably better for PvE. Core Ele is pretty much outclassed by Tempest and Weaver in all regards, but in PvE it really is just up to you and how you feel. As long as you aren't running end game fractals or raids, you can just play whatever feels nice.

Now onto WvW. Never run tempest with D/D in WvW. Unless you are going for an unkillable tank to hold onto points until your friends show up, you are just gimping yourself. Overloads aren't all that good against decent players (let alone good roamers) and the Aura traits you gain are too supportive when you are already going to be likely investing into Water. While its possible to trait your Tempest line to ignore overloads and auras, I ask you then what is the point of even taking Tempest to begin with. Its' not good for serious roaming, unless you are planning to play support. Tempest IS good right now for support roaming, it can really clean up those condis floating around right now. But solo roaming, hard pass.

Core D/D is better. And by better, I mean, its less bad. Core D/D hasn't been in a really great place for a few years now. You can have success with it, but don't expect to be able to win crazy fights. It lacks the sustain and damage of Weaver, trading that for higher mobility and flexibility. And, in 2020 the mobility offered by Core D/D right now is really nothing to write home about. However, it is still incredibly fun to run. I run core D/D all the time and I acknowledge that it is in no way better than anything Weaver can offer. You will want to take Fire/Water/Arcane for best survivabilty. Blinding Ashes is a godsend and if you can maintain your might stacking (which should be no problem on core ele) you can really take advantage of Power Overwhelming. IF condis are an issue, swap Power Overwhelming for Smothering Auras and you're good to go, its a good condi-cleasne. If you're dueling and want more single target damage in a 1v1, you can swap out Fire for Air, air is incredibly in 1v1 on Core but you trade off alot of personal sustain for it. Celestial is a great stat you wanna focus on if you don't already have trinkets with it. You will have to mix and match alot of armor stats till you find a combo that works with you. Pick up a set of Durability Runes and Divinity Runes, both are pretty much meta for Core D/D roaming although there are others out there that works as well. Mist, Flash and Armor of Earth are your utilities.

The best piece of advice I can give you though is that If you're serious about roaming as a Ele, highly recommend practicing with Weaver. Get some tanky condi gear in PvE and play with your rotations till you get the feel of how the dual-wielding attunements work. Weaver can roam infinitely better than either Tempest or Core right now.

Thank you for the comprehensive reply, I am forcing my way to learn condi weaver (sword/focus) and I am slowly starting to feel the flow of it. I guess things will be easier once I memorize what each skill does and whats its position in my keyboard.I did try tempest D/D but I found the overloads to break the flow of battle for not much gain.

[fuzzyp.6295]

@"aaron.7850" said:

I did try tempest D/D but I found the overloads to break the flow of battle for not much gain.

Preach my brother. The story of Tempest since 2015.

Good on you for working on Weaver, I promise you it is much better at roaming. But for all the poo-pooing I did for Core D/D, I'd still say that at times I have more fun losing on a Core D/D than winning on a Weaver. There is just something fun about playing the underdog. Whenever a try-hard mesmer or thief sees a core ele in WvW their first thoughts are always "ez clap" and nothing feels quiet as rewarding as getting those stomps.

Good luck to you in your ele adventures. Hit me up if you have any questions!

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

I never got into roaming on weaver. 1v1 were always lackluster. But on tempest I am actually doing good.

Each to their own I guess. But I do not run d/d.

[TenthLife.5724]

I run d/d on my weaver a lot and have both good and less good results in wvw. It’s quite fun most of the time although I do swap back to core d/d every now and then. Like it’s been previously mentioned tempest is good for support atm, myself never really got into them as I always preferred core ele.Play what you think is fun and what works for you.

[BigEvs.6971]

Like some others have mentioned, go core ele for D/D or weaver if you feel like it. The (semi)recent changes to the kit like Earthen Rush put core in the best state it's been for a while, as in it's actually playable.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

D/D weaver is very entertaining, very funny. Not as effective as sword in pve, but all skills feel like they have an utility, an impact, even water #1. When you start to enjoy the frenzy and fluidity of attunements swap and skills combos; it's very hard to come back to core or tempest.Many CC, many dashs/evades, big hits, 240 range which you can abuse with some habits to avoid damage but hit your foe....

I use this build in wvw ; very well balanced : Dmg, buffs, condi cleanse, sustain, anti-proj, cc, soft cc, etcBut it needs some expertise to handle foes and survive : loop boons, stack vulnerability + weakness + big dmg skills, use unravel to fast sustain yourself or chain combos, etc. Absolutely not newbie friendly (Like all ele builds somewhat)In pve I don't care to change the build, it's not meta DPS but still impressive and to me the most enjoyable build for elem. And also because I have a dedicated elem for Pve with a fresh air tempest build for OW. .Not effective at all in PvP, because of amulets, runes. There are better ele builds, like aura tempest, fresh air tempest, LR tempest or weaver, fire weaver.... But ele is dead in pvp.

[bluberblasen.9684]

still running dd core ele in wvw ( 1v1 duelling and duo roaming )i would rate it 7/10 in in duelling because there are too much hard counters for core ele.8/10 in duo roaming because -> standart weaver <- is 10/10 ( more sustain, more damage, and BARRIER, BARRIER, BARRIER )
but the very big problem ( for me ) weaver and tempest are not fun to play. - so i'm forced to play core :-)

fuzzyp.6295 described what most ele players are thinking :D+1 to you.

[len.7809]

@"Runefallen.5293" said:

FRESH AIR ;)

tempest

for that purpose, it's better to play scepter focus instead of D/D

Anyways, I stick with core D/D if solo, Celestial D/D Tempest if you wanna have a nice troll time with friends

[JohnWater.5760]

I usually play like this for PvE and WvW, depending on your main element.Fire -> Dagger/Dagger - TempestWater -> Scepter/Focus - CoreAir -> Scepter or Dagger/Warhorn - TempestEarth -> Dagger/Dagger or Warhorn - Tempest

[EUmad.7645]

I usually roam and go 1vs 1 only with dagger dagger core. I am using a mix of stats fire water arcana. You have to keep moving all the time . Cantrips are till quite good imho , and the gameplay is for me quite always the same , attack in fire, disengage in earth/air (whater obviously for heals ) . You are not a warrior so you can not stand "long" in the fight , you have to move costantly but with cc and pbaoe you can do really good things .

[MotherKitten.6795]

Tempes if for no other reason than the many reflects. This nerfs so many projectile based opponents.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@MotherKitten.6795 said:Tempes if for no other reason than the many reflects. This nerfs so many projectile based opponents.

Any ele with focus offhand has some pretty solid defense against projectiles, though. 6s area projectile denial, 3s reflect, 3s invuln, ranged interrupt, hard CC, and chill application. It's a very disruptive weapon against ranged opponents. Of course, it could always be more so. So why not tempest? But if you wanted to play core or weaver and you're worried about ranged attacks I wouldn't worry too much. Just run with focus offhand!

[MotherKitten.6795]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@MotherKitten.6795 said:Tempes if for no other reason than the many reflects. This nerfs so many projectile based opponents.

Any ele with focus offhand has some pretty solid defense against projectiles, though. 6s area projectile denial, 3s reflect, 3s invuln, ranged interrupt, hard CC, and chill application. It's a very disruptive weapon against ranged opponents. Of course, it could always be more so. So why not tempest? But if you wanted to play core or weaver and you're worried about ranged attacks I wouldn't worry too much. Just run with focus offhand!

I've never found the focus projectile skill even close to being as useful as the tempest reflects. You also lose a lot of damage from choosing focus over dagger. Eles tend to get into long 1v1 duels that usually end when you get a good fire grab or churning earth crit on the opponent. That is all gone with focus. The long knockdown from focus is mostly useful to keep people in place to eat a dragon's tooth from scepter.

But the best was the old tempest trait that gave you an automatic reflect when health dipped under 90%. That made fighting deadeyes so easy. But anything good ele gets gets nerfed.

[steki.1478]

@MotherKitten.6795 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@MotherKitten.6795 said:Tempes if for no other reason than the many reflects. This nerfs so many projectile based opponents.

Any ele with focus offhand has some pretty solid defense against projectiles, though. 6s area projectile denial, 3s reflect, 3s invuln, ranged interrupt, hard CC, and chill application. It's a very disruptive weapon against ranged opponents. Of course, it could always be more so. So why not tempest? But if you wanted to play core or weaver and you're worried about ranged attacks I wouldn't worry too much. Just run with focus offhand!

I've never found the focus projectile skill even close to being as useful as the tempest reflects. You also lose a lot of damage from choosing focus over dagger. Eles tend to get into long 1v1 duels that usually end when you get a good fire grab or churning earth crit on the opponent. That is all gone with focus. The long knockdown from focus is mostly useful to keep people in place to eat a dragon's tooth from scepter.

But the best was the old tempest trait that gave you an automatic reflect when health dipped under 90%. That made fighting deadeyes so easy. But anything good ele gets gets nerfed.

You lose damage by going tempest as well. It just gives you 2 reflects on very long cooldowns, but heavily limits your burst since you have to camp attunements to get the effect of tempest and your damage is limited with just 1 attunement. You also have better access to cleanses.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@MotherKitten.6795 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@MotherKitten.6795 said:Tempes if for no other reason than the many reflects. This nerfs so many projectile based opponents.

Any ele with focus offhand has some pretty solid defense against projectiles, though. 6s area projectile denial, 3s reflect, 3s invuln, ranged interrupt, hard CC, and chill application. It's a very disruptive weapon against ranged opponents. Of course, it could always be more so. So why not tempest? But if you wanted to play core or weaver and you're worried about ranged attacks I wouldn't worry too much. Just run with focus offhand!

I've never found the focus projectile skill even close to being as useful as the tempest reflects. You also lose a lot of damage from choosing focus over dagger. Eles tend to get into long 1v1 duels that usually end when you get a good fire grab or churning earth crit on the opponent. That is all gone with focus. The long knockdown from focus is mostly useful to keep people in place to eat a dragon's tooth from scepter.

But the best was the old tempest trait that gave you an automatic reflect when health dipped under 90%. That made fighting deadeyes so easy. But anything good ele gets gets nerfed.

I can't say you're wrong about that sweet mobility and burst on dagger offhand. From a duelist's perspective, it's very tempting and it can finish fights that are otherwise unwinnable. It's just that I feel other ele builds are better at that burst role while Tempest makes a superior support/healer. And I would say focus is a much better choice for a support/healer than dagger offhand.

Basically, what steki.1478 said! But as a former Tempest player who stubbornly stuck to dagger offhand when focus was meta, I certainly understand the appeal behind dagger!

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

You have earth #2 on dagger too.

~1.5sec block for 6sec CD. The animation is not very intuitive on how and when it blocks, but it's one of the most effective block, also because most of the players don't know this effect.  #2 + #3 you can block and close the gap + if you play weaver d/d you have regulary access to earth and many leaps.

[EUmad.7645]

how do you build d/d tempest ?