Upcoming Balance Notes

[RoyalPredator.9163]

Dear Arenanet, I think it's pretty bad for Core Rangers since the few "Balance" patch notes, which only made all other classes's META even more lethal.... 6 stack torment applied in 1 second?

I CAN'T SUGGEST STRONGLY ENOUGH to finally give some love to Rangers in WWW at least.Our DMG is lie nothing. Survability is like nothing. Pet's AI is dumber than ever. And they're weak.Longbow's skills are good but it's so slow and players glitch it's hit detections.Greatsword's skills are also good but weak as kitten. And slow.

No wonder why Rangers aren't really welcome in any game mode...

[Kodama.6453]

@"RoyalPredator.9163" said:Dear Arenanet, I think it's pretty bad for Core Rangers since the few "Balance" patch notes, which only made all other classes's META even more lethal.... 6 stack torment applied in 1 second?

I CAN'T SUGGEST STRONGLY ENOUGH to finally give some love to Rangers in WWW at least.Our DMG is lie nothing. Survability is like nothing. Pet's AI is dumber than ever. And they're weak.Longbow's skills are good but it's so slow and players glitch it's hit detections.Greatsword's skills are also good but weak as kitten. And slow.

No wonder why Rangers aren't really welcome in any game mode...

When talking about WvW, then I guess you mean zerg fights in which rangers are not really optimal?Doesn't mean that rangers are totally unwelcome in WvW, tho, it is just a roamer class just like thief.

And saying that rangers are not really welcome in any game mode is obviously wrong.Because of the unique buffs your class has, druids are the strongest meta healer for high end PvE like raids.

[Lily.1935]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Whatever anyone want's to think about me, what I say or how I say it ... nothing is more obvious that the reality that EVERY time we get a balance patch where necros get DPS and are still not team desirable ... it's PROOF that pushing DPS on necro to increase that desirability is not a solution to getting teams. EVERY TIME.

Here's the issue. Necromancer did not get much of a DPS increase. They got a minor one for a build that is still behind and a major one for a build that was literally dead on the release of PoF. And it still lags behind the other necromancer builds.

Yeah I know ... and the context here is that this is a reply to a poster whose claim is that the idea that ANY DPS is good for necro for meta PUG teams is good for necro. That idea doesn't make sense ... it will NEVER make sense. We have multiple instances that proves it's doesn't. We also know that's not how Anet thinks or changes the game. Again ... MANY instances and a long game history that proves it.

I'm fully aware of everything you are saying here, especially the part where you indicate necro doesn't offer much ... THAT is the problem that needs to be fixed if necros are going to be accepted in meta PUGs ... NOT more DPS.

I do still think that necromancer could gain more party utility as well as DPS. I think this would be fine especially if they have to sacrifice DPS for that utility. Blood bank is a fairly unpopular trait from what I can see and replacing the Wells trait was also an unpopular move. And not the move I would have made. I've have changed it so wells pulse a buff to allies that allows their next attack steal health or something similar on top of what it also did Or I'd just add a new Leeching boon that the necromancer could push out and they'd get bonus stacks for from the wells. this would make it legitimately compete with transfusion as it would be a damage buff to allies. I'd have it function that the next strike an ally would make steals health and strips that stack so Blood could build this Leeching sub theme and other classes could too gain this buff but not to the extend Necromancer could give it out. Of course this is just one idea, and a DPS build might like taking blood for this trait, but they're pigeonholing themselves with it.

There is also the option to replace the support from Shades on scourge with Damage on the pulse instead of aiding allies so they could focus on DPS instead of the minor support and or changing Sand savant to not cause damage but grant boons to allies or change Desert shroud to be less selfish and more pulsing barrier to allies. There's a lot they could do that could aid them. And honestly I don't really want a 10k damage boost. Probably closer to 4-5k overall. Which is significant, but still puts them behind most classes. Necromancer should be desired for their unique kit first and not their DPS. Much like Mesmer has for much of its life.

But that's also why I kinda say Firebrand is everything the necromancer wants to be but better. Extremely difficult to kill, high damage, high support, ability to be nearly pure DPS or hybrid support and even healer. Necromancer too can do all of these things but not as well.

[Kodama.6453]

@Lily.1935 said:

I do still think that necromancer could gain more party utility as well as DPS. I think this would be fine especially if they have to sacrifice DPS for that utility. Blood bank is a fairly unpopular trait from what I can see and replacing the Wells trait was also an unpopular move. And not the move I would have made. I've have changed it so wells pulse a buff to allies that allows their next attack steal health or something similar on top of what it also did Or I'd just add a new Leeching boon that the necromancer could push out and they'd get bonus stacks for from the wells. this would make it legitimately compete with transfusion as it would be a damage buff to allies. I'd have it function that the next strike an ally would make steals health and strips that stack so Blood could build this Leeching sub theme and other classes could too gain this buff but not to the extend Necromancer could give it out. Of course this is just one idea, and a DPS build might like taking blood for this trait, but they're pigeonholing themselves with it.

There is also the option to replace the support from Shades on scourge with Damage on the pulse instead of aiding allies so they could focus on DPS instead of the minor support and or changing Sand savant to not cause damage but grant boons to allies or change Desert shroud to be less selfish and more pulsing barrier to allies. There's a lot they could do that could aid them. And honestly I don't really want a 10k damage boost. Probably closer to 4-5k overall. Which is significant, but still puts them behind most classes. Necromancer should be desired for their unique kit first and not their DPS. Much like Mesmer has for much of its life.

But that's also why I kinda say Firebrand is everything the necromancer wants to be but better. Extremely difficult to kill, high damage, high support, ability to be nearly pure DPS or hybrid support and even healer. Necromancer too can do all of these things but not as well.

I like the idea to give us a new buff type that makes x following attacks steal health from the enemy.Necromancer traits could get translated into that some way.Thief's leeching venoms are also a great candidate.

And I can see other classes getting access to that buff (but as you said, not as constant as necromancer).Engineer could make it work with the medical theme, like they are using syringes to steal health from their enemies.Ranger could use animal themes, like leeches or vampire bats and mosquitos (possible new pets).

[Dadnir.5038]

@Kodama.6453 said:I like the idea to give us a new buff type that makes x following attacks steal health from the enemy.

Objectively, such boon won't do any good to the necromancer where he is in need of help.

The issue of the necromancer is that it's tools suck in PvE instanced content (not in PvP nor in WvW). Life stealing suck in PvE instanced content and so does boon corruption. If life stealing was valuable in PvE, dark fields, something that the necromancer overflow with, would be valuable and it's not the case.

What ANet need to do to balance the necromancer is first and foremost to balance the environment in such a way that it's mechanisms interact with the tools that define the necromancer. Defiance need to be seriously looked at as it effectively replace stability and vigor while partly taking on the role of resistance. There is a need to design encounters in such a way that condition like poison end up a bit more valuable than a basic bleed stack. There is a need to design encounters in such a way that condition management is needed (not the actual poor excuse of condition management where mobs overwhelm you under a burst of conditions and every single profession got a convenient use of a condi transfer skill poping).

Currently, without doing the above mentioned changes, you'd have to make defiant foes immun to critical hits unless their breakbar is broken to make a leeching boon of any value. In any way, there is a need to work on the defiant mechanism before even begining to think about adding necromancer's flavored tools in order to balance the necromancer in PvE.

[Taril.8619]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:I like the idea to give us a new buff type that makes x following attacks steal health from the enemy.

Objectively, such boon won't do any good to the necromancer where he is in need of help.

The issue of the necromancer is that it's tools suck in PvE instanced content (not in PvP nor in WvW). Life stealing suck in PvE instanced content and so does boon corruption. If life stealing was valuable in PvE, dark fields, something that the necromancer overflow with, would be valuable and it's not the case.

AoE Life Siphon is nuts in PvE it's why Renegade spends almost all of its energy on Soulcleave's Summit when using Kalla.

Dark Fields suck because the effect of Dark Combos suck, having low damage coefficients and only even providing Life Siphon for Projectile and Whirl finishers (While SCS provides it on every hit) which not a lot of damage sources actually provide in Raids.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"RoyalPredator.9163" said:Dear Arenanet, I think it's

pretty bad for Core Rangers

since the few "Balance" patch notes, which only made all other classes's META even more lethal.... 6 stack torment applied in 1 second?

I CAN'T SUGGEST STRONGLY ENOUGH

to finally give some love to Rangers in WWW at least.Our DMG is lie nothing. Survability is like nothing. Pet's AI is dumber than ever. And they're weak.Longbow's skills are good but it's so slow and players glitch it's hit detections.Greatsword's skills are also good but weak as kitten. And slow.

No wonder why Rangers aren't really welcome in any game mode...

When talking about WvW, then I guess you mean zerg fights in which rangers are not really optimal?Doesn't mean that rangers are totally unwelcome in WvW, tho, it is just a roamer class just like thief.

And saying that rangers are not really welcome in any game mode is obviously wrong.Because of the unique buffs your class has, druids are

the

strongest meta healer for high end PvE like raids.

I honestly had some hope for Ranger when they announced Soulbeast, felt like it could be good with the Stance Sharing, but it simply wasn't to be, hopefully next elite spec rangers can have a spec that makes them actually useful in zergs.

[RoyalPredator.9163]

@Kodama.6453 said:When talking about WvW, then I guess you mean zerg fights in which rangers are not really optimal?Doesn't mean that rangers are totally unwelcome in WvW, tho, it is just a roamer class just like thief.

And saying that rangers are not really welcome in any game mode is obviously wrong.Because of the unique buffs your class has, druids are the strongest meta healer for high end PvE like raids.Talking about CORE rangers, especially with LB/GS. Not healer druid freaks, but True rangers who skirmish!We're not welcome in any games. WWW roaming is different, you need no invitation there... but you'll be targeted first.You ask why? Because we're kitten weak Af.

[Anchoku.8142]

Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

[Sobx.1758]

@Anchoku.8142 said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

Yeah, from what anet say each spec brings a different style of play and Reaper is/should be the DPS class, Scourge is more on the support side or should be

[Dadnir.5038]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:Yeah, from what anet say each spec brings a different style of play and Reaper is/should be the DPS class, Scourge is more on the support side or should be

They just have to make boon ripping/corruption interact with defiant. This way the numerous corruption to torment and cripple from the scourge can finally do something in PvE encounters. I mean, this would effectively buff every single scourge utility for PvE without impacting significantly PvP/WvW. Is it really to much to ask? Defiance effectively act like stability, vigor and a lesser version of resistance all at the same time, it should be logical to have boon rip/corrupt interact with it.

[Sobx.1758]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:Yeah, from what anet say each spec brings a different style of play and Reaper is/should be the DPS class, Scourge is more on the support side or should be

They just have to make boon ripping/corruption interact with

defiant

. This way the numerous corruption to torment and cripple from the scourge can finally do something in PvE encounters. I mean, this would effectively buff every single scourge utility for PvE without impacting significantly PvP/WvW. Is it really to much to ask?

Defiance

effectively act like stability, vigor and a lesser version of resistance all at the same time, it should be logical to have boon rip/corrupt interact with it.

How is this addressing post you're answering to?

[Dadnir.5038]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:They just have to make boon ripping/corruption interact with

defiant

. This way the numerous corruption to torment and cripple from the scourge can finally do something in PvE encounters. I mean, this would effectively buff every single scourge utility for PvE without impacting significantly PvP/WvW. Is it really to much to ask?

Defiance

effectively act like stability, vigor and a lesser version of resistance all at the same time, it should be logical to have boon rip/corrupt interact with it.

How is this addressing post you're answering to?

I'd say that I quoted the wrong post... My mistake.

[Lily.1935]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

Yeah, from what anet say each spec brings a different style of play and Reaper is/should be the DPS class, Scourge is more on the support side or should be

Scourge is barely a support. Most of their traits are geared towards damage and control. Their skills are a bit more supportive but not much more than what their core skills offer.

But I disagree with the premise that scourge can't also be DPS. This argument is only ever brought up for scourge and never Firebrand which is basically everything scourge wants to be but better.

[Sobx.1758]

@Lily.1935 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

Yeah, from what anet say each spec brings a different style of play and Reaper is/should be the DPS class, Scourge is more on the support side or should be

Scourge is barely a support. Most of their traits are geared towards damage and control. Their skills are a bit more supportive but not much more than what their core skills offer.

Control is support btw.

But I disagree with the premise that scourge can't also be DPS. This argument is only ever brought up for scourge and never Firebrand which is basically everything scourge wants to be but better.

It's not that it really "can't", it's that it doesn't need to be one for pve. "Scourge" isn't a separate class, it's still necro.

[Kodama.6453]

@Lily.1935 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

Yeah, from what anet say each spec brings a different style of play and Reaper is/should be the DPS class, Scourge is more on the support side or should be

Scourge is barely a support. Most of their traits are geared towards damage and control. Their skills are a bit more supportive but not much more than what their core skills offer.

But I disagree with the premise that scourge can't also be DPS. This argument is only ever brought up for scourge and never Firebrand which is basically everything scourge wants to be but better.

Sure, scourge can play the dps role.But it should be worse at doing dps than reaper. Just like firebrand should be worse at dps than dragonhunter.

And scourge definitely is primarily a support elite spec. Their barrier application is supposed to enable the necromancer to play the role of a group healer, just in their case they have to be proactive instead of reactive. And it also works fairly well in that role.While druid is still the best healer because of might generation as well as unique buffs, a scourge is still able to do the job of a healer.

[Lily.1935]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

Yeah, from what anet say each spec brings a different style of play and Reaper is/should be the DPS class, Scourge is more on the support side or should be

Scourge is barely a support. Most of their traits are geared towards damage and control. Their skills are a bit more supportive but not much more than what their core skills offer.

But I disagree with the premise that scourge can't also be DPS. This argument is only ever brought up for scourge and never Firebrand which is basically everything scourge wants to be but better.

Sure, scourge can play the dps role.But it should be worse at doing dps than reaper. Just like firebrand

should

be worse at dps than dragonhunter.

And scourge definitely is primarily a support elite spec. Their barrier application is supposed to enable the necromancer to play the role of a group healer, just in their case they have to be proactive instead of reactive. And it also works fairly well in that role.While druid is still the best healer because of might generation as well as unique buffs, a scourge is still able to do the job of a healer.

And reaper is far tankier than scourge. So it shouldn't have more dps. Well, at least that's the same line of thinking. I don't think that as each spec has glaring flaws. Scourge is pretty squishy. Much of its squishiness is mitigated by the group but that's also true for something like Hollowsmith.

Also, scourge has a difficult rotation in comparison to reaper. You need to look at the other factors of the specs as opposed just focusing on one. Especially considering how many specs are hybrid damage and support specs which includes Renegade, Chronomancer, deadeye, weaver, tempest, as well as the firebrand I mentioned. If we take that support element into consideration are we to say all of those specs should be nerfed relatively in line with the scourge?

[Lily.1935]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

Yeah, from what anet say each spec brings a different style of play and Reaper is/should be the DPS class, Scourge is more on the support side or should be

Scourge is barely a support. Most of their traits are geared towards damage and control. Their skills are a bit more supportive but not much more than what their core skills offer.

Control is support btw.

But I disagree with the premise that scourge can't also be DPS. This argument is only ever brought up for scourge and never Firebrand which is basically everything scourge wants to be but better.

It's not that it really "can't", it's that it doesn't need to be one for pve. "Scourge" isn't a separate class, it's still necro.

I guess that means a reaper is support. Since its got just as many control elements. Who would have thought?

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Lily.1935 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

Yeah, from what anet say each spec brings a different style of play and Reaper is/should be the DPS class, Scourge is more on the support side or should be

Scourge is barely a support. Most of their traits are geared towards damage and control. Their skills are a bit more supportive but not much more than what their core skills offer.

But I disagree with the premise that scourge can't also be DPS. This argument is only ever brought up for scourge and never Firebrand which is basically everything scourge wants to be but better.

Sure, scourge can play the dps role.But it should be worse at doing dps than reaper. Just like firebrand

should

be worse at dps than dragonhunter.

And scourge definitely is primarily a support elite spec. Their barrier application is supposed to enable the necromancer to play the role of a group healer, just in their case they have to be proactive instead of reactive. And it also works fairly well in that role.While druid is still the best healer because of might generation as well as unique buffs, a scourge is still able to do the job of a healer.

And reaper is far tankier than scourge. So it shouldn't have more dps. Well, at least that's the same line of thinking. I don't think that as each spec has glaring flaws. Scourge is pretty squishy. Much of its squishiness is mitigated by the group but that's also true for something like Hollowsmith.

Also, scourge has a difficult rotation in comparison to reaper. You need to look at the other factors of the specs as opposed just focusing on one. Especially considering how many specs are hybrid damage and support specs which includes Renegade, Chronomancer, deadeye, weaver, tempest, as well as the firebrand I mentioned. If we take that support element into consideration are we to say all of those specs should be nerfed relatively in line with the scourge?

Bit confused, are you saying Weaver can support aswell as damage?

[Sobx.1758]

@Lily.1935 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

Yeah, from what anet say each spec brings a different style of play and Reaper is/should be the DPS class, Scourge is more on the support side or should be

Scourge is barely a support. Most of their traits are geared towards damage and control. Their skills are a bit more supportive but not much more than what their core skills offer.

Control is support btw.

But I disagree with the premise that scourge can't also be DPS. This argument is only ever brought up for scourge and never Firebrand which is basically everything scourge wants to be but better.

It's not that it really "can't", it's that it doesn't need to be one for pve. "Scourge" isn't a separate class, it's still necro.

I guess that means a reaper is support. Since its got just as many control elements. Who would have thought?

Ah yes, so nobody plays scourge anywhere since apparently reaper does everything better than scourge, ok. :)...and control abilities are still a type of support whether you respond with sarcasm or not.

[Lily.1935]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

Yeah, from what anet say each spec brings a different style of play and Reaper is/should be the DPS class, Scourge is more on the support side or should be

Scourge is barely a support. Most of their traits are geared towards damage and control. Their skills are a bit more supportive but not much more than what their core skills offer.

Control is support btw.

But I disagree with the premise that scourge can't also be DPS. This argument is only ever brought up for scourge and never Firebrand which is basically everything scourge wants to be but better.

It's not that it really "can't", it's that it doesn't need to be one for pve. "Scourge" isn't a separate class, it's still necro.

I guess that means a reaper is support. Since its got just as many control elements. Who would have thought?

Ah yes, so nobody plays scourge anywhere since apparently reaper does everything better than scourge, ok. :)...and control abilities are still a type of support whether you respond with sarcasm or not.

Whether or not you think control is support is irrelevant as it doesn't practically function that way. Especially in raids. Why I said it was to point out the flaw in your thinking. Which, again, instead of admitting you're wrong you double down on it.

Practically speaking, control is not the same as support. It might accomplish a similar goal in some situations but so does high DPS.

[Sobx.1758]

@Lily.1935 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

Yeah, from what anet say each spec brings a different style of play and Reaper is/should be the DPS class, Scourge is more on the support side or should be

Scourge is barely a support. Most of their traits are geared towards damage and control. Their skills are a bit more supportive but not much more than what their core skills offer.

Control is support btw.

But I disagree with the premise that scourge can't also be DPS. This argument is only ever brought up for scourge and never Firebrand which is basically everything scourge wants to be but better.

It's not that it really "can't", it's that it doesn't need to be one for pve. "Scourge" isn't a separate class, it's still necro.

I guess that means a reaper is support. Since its got just as many control elements. Who would have thought?

Ah yes, so nobody plays scourge anywhere since apparently reaper does everything better than scourge, ok. :)...and control abilities are still a type of support whether you respond with sarcasm or not.

Whether or not you think control is support is irrelevant as it doesn't practically function that way. Especially in raids. Why I said it was to point out the flaw in your thinking. Which, again, instead of admitting you're wrong you double down on it.

Practically speaking, control is not the same as support. It might accomplish a similar goal in some situations but so does high DPS.

Ah so you're limiting your opinion to one type of content in one of the modes (pve) and call it a day, cool. In any competitive mode control acts as support though. Apparently the "flaw in my thinking" was looking at the game as a whole.

Yes, it's not "the same as support", as I wrote before, it's a type/part of support.

And still this:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

[Lily.1935]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

Yeah, from what anet say each spec brings a different style of play and Reaper is/should be the DPS class, Scourge is more on the support side or should be

Scourge is barely a support. Most of their traits are geared towards damage and control. Their skills are a bit more supportive but not much more than what their core skills offer.

Control is support btw.

But I disagree with the premise that scourge can't also be DPS. This argument is only ever brought up for scourge and never Firebrand which is basically everything scourge wants to be but better.

It's not that it really "can't", it's that it doesn't need to be one for pve. "Scourge" isn't a separate class, it's still necro.

I guess that means a reaper is support. Since its got just as many control elements. Who would have thought?

Ah yes, so nobody plays scourge anywhere since apparently reaper does everything better than scourge, ok. :)...and control abilities are still a type of support whether you respond with sarcasm or not.

Whether or not you think control is support is irrelevant as it doesn't practically function that way. Especially in raids. Why I said it was to point out the flaw in your thinking. Which, again, instead of admitting you're wrong you double down on it.

Practically speaking, control is not the same as support. It might accomplish a similar goal in some situations but so does high DPS.

Ah so you're limiting your opinion to one type of content in one of the modes (pve) and call it a day, cool. In any competitive mode control acts as support though. Apparently the "flaw in my thinking" was looking at the game as a whole.

Yes, it's not "the same as support", as I wrote before, it's a type/part of support.

And still this:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

And the complaints of lack of support are mostly geared towards PvE. No one is denying that, but you always always make bad faith arguments which is why I both dislike you and am dismissive of you. Which is exactly what is wrong with your second quote since no one is doing that. That's why I didn't respond to it because its nonsense.

[Sobx.1758]

@Lily.1935 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

Yeah, from what anet say each spec brings a different style of play and Reaper is/should be the DPS class, Scourge is more on the support side or should be

Scourge is barely a support. Most of their traits are geared towards damage and control. Their skills are a bit more supportive but not much more than what their core skills offer.

Control is support btw.

But I disagree with the premise that scourge can't also be DPS. This argument is only ever brought up for scourge and never Firebrand which is basically everything scourge wants to be but better.

It's not that it really "can't", it's that it doesn't need to be one for pve. "Scourge" isn't a separate class, it's still necro.

I guess that means a reaper is support. Since its got just as many control elements. Who would have thought?

Ah yes, so nobody plays scourge anywhere since apparently reaper does everything better than scourge, ok. :)...and control abilities are still a type of support whether you respond with sarcasm or not.

Whether or not you think control is support is irrelevant as it doesn't practically function that way. Especially in raids. Why I said it was to point out the flaw in your thinking. Which, again, instead of admitting you're wrong you double down on it.

Practically speaking, control is not the same as support. It might accomplish a similar goal in some situations but so does high DPS.

Ah so you're limiting your opinion to one type of content in one of the modes (pve) and call it a day, cool. In any competitive mode control acts as support though. Apparently the "flaw in my thinking" was looking at the game as a whole.

Yes, it's not "the same as support", as I wrote before, it's a type/part of support.

And still this:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

And the complaints of lack of support are mostly geared towards PvE. No one is denying that, but you always always make bad faith arguments which is why I both dislike you and am dismissive of you.

Nah, I don't. Pointing out something that i disagree with or something I think makes no sense -rightfuly or because I didn't understand it- doesn't make it "arguing in the bad faith". You being dismissive isn't limited to me, it's the case almost anywhere someone tells you you're wrong about something, with a pretty strong example in form of your denial about necro spec (across the games) not being a set of mechanics, but rather a theme/flavor. I don't need you to like me, that was never the point or question for me, so not sure why you felt the need to mention that.

Which is exactly what is wrong with your second quote since no one is doing that. That's why I didn't respond to it because its nonsense.

I'm not sure how you can claim that when we constantly see things like "scourge can't x", "core necro can't y", "reaper has dmg, but scourge doesn't!" as validation for buffs and changes requests. That's what my question was aimed at. Espec not being able to do something doesn't really matter imo.