Upcoming Balance Notes

[Hadi.6025]

@Warlord.9074 said:

@"Hadi.6025" said:Y'all trying figure out how to lay off another 140 people? Release this patch. You're on your way.

Can't believe I am agreeing with Hadi. Necro changes, this class doesn't need any in the current meta. .

Warrior changes... The blanket nerf last patch to all classes intended to slow down the game mode essentially was identical to the class mechanics of warrior. So while they effected other classes very little those changes effected warrior as a whole.

To make things simple that's what your company did, I can understand that, what I can't understand is why warrior was the target and you called out the warrior as the #1 problem last patch.

.Warriors even before the February patch were under performing in PVE and WvW and in competitive PVP at high level at least vs equally skilled players. For zerg play in wvw the class has no viable range options and AOE. For PVE it was just a banner slave. And for PVP the effort you have to put into beating another player that is as good or better than you on another class that counters warrior which is a lot of them is more effort they need to put into beating you. The class hadn't been considered S-Tier since early days of HoT. They have been a B-Tier class for a pretty long time.

[Nimon.7840]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

You clearly have no idea about reapers rotation and it's tankyness.

1. Reaper isn't more tanky than other classes. Yes it has -together with warrior- the highest base health and a trait that heals the necro while out of shroud. BUT: it doesn't have any utility for the group. So if we take a guardian -with the lowest base health- we see, that it first of all has more armor, and second has a lot more group utility. You can take stand your ground to provide 10man stability, have aegis for your group, can provide a bit of fury or might support from sword or shelter and -and that's crucial - is basically immune to damage while litany of wrath is up. Reaper has a serious problem with taking damage while in shroud. But I'll come back to that later.
2. Reaper is rng dependant because reaper isn't critcapped outside of shroud. This can lead to 34,2k golem dps, but easily can also be only 32k dps. So if you're extremely unlucky your dps will drop noticably
3. Reaper rotation is a lot harder than you might think. The current max golem dps rotation takes much more skill to do correctly than a renegade or guard rotation. You basically need to cancel every Aftercast of all those gravediggers, then the Aftercast of every gs5, also be extremely careful, that you don't interrupt your wells before you go into shroud and then you have the problem, that you're out of lifeforce, when the 4m health golem dies. I didn't get to test this rotation in a real fight but as soon as there's area tick dmg or incoming damage while in shroud and there's no adds that might refill your lifeforce, this rotation isn't doable anymore. Not to mention that you will really annoy your healer, with that shroud.

You can't take open world builds as measurement. And you can easily obtain similar survivability on other classes if you don't play the snowcrows builds, while doing similar damage like necro.

[Lily.1935]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

You clearly have no idea about reapers rotation and it's tankyness.

1. Reaper isn't more tanky than other classes. Yes it has -together with warrior- the highest base health and a trait that heals the necro while out of shroud. BUT: it doesn't have any utility for the group. So if we take a guardian -with the lowest base health- we see, that it first of all has more armor, and second has a lot more group utility. You can take stand your ground to provide 10man stability, have aegis for your group, can provide a bit of fury or might support from sword or shelter and -and that's crucial - is basically immune to damage while litany of wrath is up. Reaper has a serious problem with taking damage while in shroud. But I'll come back to that later.
2. Reaper is rng dependant because reaper isn't critcapped outside of shroud. This can lead to 34,2k golem dps, but easily can also be only 32k dps. So if you're extremely unlucky your dps will drop noticably
3. Reaper rotation is a lot harder than you might think. The current max golem dps rotation takes much more skill to do correctly than a renegade or guard rotation. You basically need to cancel every Aftercast of all those gravediggers, then the Aftercast of every gs5, also be extremely careful, that you don't interrupt your wells before you go into shroud and then you have the problem, that you're out of lifeforce, when the 4m health golem dies. I didn't get to test this rotation in a real fight but as soon as there's area tick dmg or incoming damage while in shroud and there's no adds that might refill your lifeforce, this rotation isn't doable anymore. Not to mention that you will really annoy your healer, with that shroud.

You can't take open world builds as measurement. And you can easily obtain similar survivability on other classes if you don't play the snowcrows builds, while doing similar damage like necro.

To add to this.

Necromancer builds are extremely fickle in general. This isn't just true for reaper but for scourge and core as well.

Core necromancer is unusable for raids and lacking in open world. It struggles in Dungeons its advantage being the tankiest of the 3 with the lowest investment. But shroud is slow and tricky with multiple after caste delays. Core also lacks quality off hand and melee weapons for PvE so it struggles to take advantage of it's full kit.

Scourge, and especially condi scourge is also extremely fickle to run. Although they have fewer issues due to the lack of shroud dancing like core and reaper, the Condi scourge creates it's own problems and using Snowcrows doesn't help you to understand the rotation, and yes their is one. Well, more a skill priority list that you want to consider. If you were to follow Snowcrows rotation to a T you'd lose DPS in most pug groups or even casual groups since a good chunk of your damage is inflicted through Blood is power. Activating both charges at the start will desync your cooldowns and you will likely have your condis cleansed by your allies which is not what you want to happen. Bip needs to be synced with Desert shroud and its awkward cooldown makes this nearly impossible to achieve if you use both charges. Plus you need to maintain all 3 shades at all times but disrupting your rotation to summon all 3 at once is a terrible idea since Dhuumfire has its internal cooldown which will lose you damage. You need to keep mental notes on your dhuumfire cooldown as to not lose dps. Further, interrupting your scepter auto causes further dps loss so after the 3rd strike is when you activate skills. Maintenance of life force is vital as if you're too greedy with your shade abilities you'll run yourself dry when desert shroud is off cool down. Signet of Undeath has helped to alleviate some of the scourge's problems but it hasn't done it all. Condi scourge also doesn't use sand flare as a heal but as a extra burn proc, so if your group is not on top of party maintenance you might find yourself without a means to save yourself.

As for the tankiness of Renegade and Guardian. As someone who plays both regularly, they are extremely tough to take down especially in open world. In some cases their tankiness far exceeds necromancer but that depends on the map.

[Josiah.2967]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

Bechmarks and my own experience tell another story. I can easily out DPS my necromancer by a wide margin on my Guardian/Ranger. I find the Guardian way easier to raid with and perform perfectly with than the necromancer.

The meters also show that inexperienced Necro players do less dps and the gap is wider than Guardians. It is time the misconceived preconception dies.

Why are you bringing up guardian and ranger? You said necro is the worst end game PvE damage and I pointed out revenant does far less, why would you bring up two different classes who do better dps than both necro and revenant?

Have you seen the reaper dps rotation? It's like 7 steps and one part is literally just AAing in shroud for a period of time. It's not only very easy, but does FAR more damage than revenant and is much more durable.

Your statement about being the worst in WvW is also laughably false. Reaper might end up being the optimal choice now but necro is still one of the best zerg classes to bring for bombs and boon rips. The only thing that needs to die is necro players thinking their class isn't strong because they think Anet has some sort of dilemma against them when in reality they've got an extremely solid role in pvp modes and are perfectly viable in instanced PvE and turn any open world stuff into a joke.

Are you serious or trolling? Looks at benchmarks.How are you even supposed to look at them?

Bring a 30k dps PvE raider and I assure you, I can kill it with a 3k dps WvW roamer.

Does that make it better or worse?

It coud mean anything. Maybe you are more skilled than them at pvp and killed them with a MEME build... PVE can be balances seperately so their is no excuse. All game types can now be balanced....

It was understandable when they did not make a distinction between the gaming modes. They opened pandoras box when they changed the direction.

They do need to stop neglecting their PVE audience. The current spread is unhealthy.

You say look at benchmarks, but I don't see any power chronos in raids, and Condi Weaver is also a very rare sight, Going by benchmarks alone is really not the way to balance classes as there is a chance to nerf classes that are barely used (Condi Weaver is a good example)

Also if you don't play WvW why would you say Necro is the worst in WvW? clearly shows bias towards Necro and thus makes whatever you say worthless since its clear you are biased.

I take back my comment that Necro is the worst at WvW. Reaper is actually decent. Not the top tier but decent... Scourge is terrible.

I do play WVW when friends ask or I am working on another legendary. It is not my focus/enjoyment like raiding and challenging fractals that need additional balance. We have benchmarks on a fight per fight basis, this should not be in questions.

[Sobx.1758]

@Lily.1935 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

You clearly have no idea about reapers rotation and it's tankyness.

1. Reaper isn't more tanky than other classes. Yes it has -together with warrior- the highest base health and a trait that heals the necro while out of shroud. BUT: it doesn't have any utility for the group. So if we take a guardian -with the lowest base health- we see, that it first of all has more armor, and second has a lot more group utility. You can take stand your ground to provide 10man stability, have aegis for your group, can provide a bit of fury or might support from sword or shelter and -and that's crucial - is basically immune to damage while litany of wrath is up. Reaper has a serious problem with taking damage while in shroud. But I'll come back to that later.
2. Reaper is rng dependant because reaper isn't critcapped outside of shroud. This can lead to 34,2k golem dps, but easily can also be only 32k dps. So if you're extremely unlucky your dps will drop noticably
3. Reaper rotation is a lot harder than you might think. The current max golem dps rotation takes much more skill to do correctly than a renegade or guard rotation. You basically need to cancel every Aftercast of all those gravediggers, then the Aftercast of every gs5, also be extremely careful, that you don't interrupt your wells before you go into shroud and then you have the problem, that you're out of lifeforce, when the 4m health golem dies. I didn't get to test this rotation in a real fight but as soon as there's area tick dmg or incoming damage while in shroud and there's no adds that might refill your lifeforce, this rotation isn't doable anymore. Not to mention that you will really annoy your healer, with that shroud.

You can't take open world builds as measurement. And you can easily obtain similar survivability on other classes if you don't play the snowcrows builds, while doing similar damage like necro.Core necromancer is unusable for raids and lacking in open world.

I mean.. that's just false.

[Josiah.2967]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

You clearly have no idea about reapers rotation and it's tankyness.

1. Reaper isn't more tanky than other classes. Yes it has -together with warrior- the highest base health and a trait that heals the necro while out of shroud. BUT: it doesn't have any utility for the group. So if we take a guardian -with the lowest base health- we see, that it first of all has more armor, and second has a lot more group utility. You can take stand your ground to provide 10man stability, have aegis for your group, can provide a bit of fury or might support from sword or shelter and -and that's crucial - is basically immune to damage while litany of wrath is up. Reaper has a serious problem with taking damage while in shroud. But I'll come back to that later.
2. Reaper is rng dependant because reaper isn't critcapped outside of shroud. This can lead to 34,2k golem dps, but easily can also be only 32k dps. So if you're extremely unlucky your dps will drop noticably
3. Reaper rotation is a lot harder than you might think. The current max golem dps rotation takes much more skill to do correctly than a renegade or guard rotation. You basically need to cancel every Aftercast of all those gravediggers, then the Aftercast of every gs5, also be extremely careful, that you don't interrupt your wells before you go into shroud and then you have the problem, that you're out of lifeforce, when the 4m health golem dies. I didn't get to test this rotation in a real fight but as soon as there's area tick dmg or incoming damage while in shroud and there's no adds that might refill your lifeforce, this rotation isn't doable anymore. Not to mention that you will really annoy your healer, with that shroud.

You can't take open world builds as measurement. And you can easily obtain similar survivability on other classes if you don't play the snowcrows builds, while doing similar damage like necro.Core necromancer is unusable for raids and lacking in open world.

I mean.. that's just false.

Back it up...

[Sobx.1758]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

You clearly have no idea about reapers rotation and it's tankyness.

1. Reaper isn't more tanky than other classes. Yes it has -together with warrior- the highest base health and a trait that heals the necro while out of shroud. BUT: it doesn't have any utility for the group. So if we take a guardian -with the lowest base health- we see, that it first of all has more armor, and second has a lot more group utility. You can take stand your ground to provide 10man stability, have aegis for your group, can provide a bit of fury or might support from sword or shelter and -and that's crucial - is basically immune to damage while litany of wrath is up. Reaper has a serious problem with taking damage while in shroud. But I'll come back to that later.
2. Reaper is rng dependant because reaper isn't critcapped outside of shroud. This can lead to 34,2k golem dps, but easily can also be only 32k dps. So if you're extremely unlucky your dps will drop noticably
3. Reaper rotation is a lot harder than you might think. The current max golem dps rotation takes much more skill to do correctly than a renegade or guard rotation. You basically need to cancel every Aftercast of all those gravediggers, then the Aftercast of every gs5, also be extremely careful, that you don't interrupt your wells before you go into shroud and then you have the problem, that you're out of lifeforce, when the 4m health golem dies. I didn't get to test this rotation in a real fight but as soon as there's area tick dmg or incoming damage while in shroud and there's no adds that might refill your lifeforce, this rotation isn't doable anymore. Not to mention that you will really annoy your healer, with that shroud.

You can't take open world builds as measurement. And you can easily obtain similar survivability on other classes if you don't play the snowcrows builds, while doing similar damage like necro.Core necromancer is unusable for raids and lacking in open world.

I mean.. that's just false.

Back it up...

What exactly is unusable about it? You can put a necro in dps slots and easly/comfortably complete nearly every raid encounter.I'm also not sure how it's "lacking in open world", it's perfectly fine to do anything it needs to do there.

[Josiah.2967]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

You clearly have no idea about reapers rotation and it's tankyness.

1. Reaper isn't more tanky than other classes. Yes it has -together with warrior- the highest base health and a trait that heals the necro while out of shroud. BUT: it doesn't have any utility for the group. So if we take a guardian -with the lowest base health- we see, that it first of all has more armor, and second has a lot more group utility. You can take stand your ground to provide 10man stability, have aegis for your group, can provide a bit of fury or might support from sword or shelter and -and that's crucial - is basically immune to damage while litany of wrath is up. Reaper has a serious problem with taking damage while in shroud. But I'll come back to that later.
2. Reaper is rng dependant because reaper isn't critcapped outside of shroud. This can lead to 34,2k golem dps, but easily can also be only 32k dps. So if you're extremely unlucky your dps will drop noticably
3. Reaper rotation is a lot harder than you might think. The current max golem dps rotation takes much more skill to do correctly than a renegade or guard rotation. You basically need to cancel every Aftercast of all those gravediggers, then the Aftercast of every gs5, also be extremely careful, that you don't interrupt your wells before you go into shroud and then you have the problem, that you're out of lifeforce, when the 4m health golem dies. I didn't get to test this rotation in a real fight but as soon as there's area tick dmg or incoming damage while in shroud and there's no adds that might refill your lifeforce, this rotation isn't doable anymore. Not to mention that you will really annoy your healer, with that shroud.

You can't take open world builds as measurement. And you can easily obtain similar survivability on other classes if you don't play the snowcrows builds, while doing similar damage like necro.Core necromancer is unusable for raids and lacking in open world.

I mean.. that's just false.

Back it up...

What exactly is unusable about it? You can put a necro in dps slots and easly/comfortably complete nearly every raid encounter.I'm also not sure how it's "lacking in open world", it's perfectly fine to do anything it needs to do there.

I look at benches and statistics. Apparently feelings are more popular....

When is the last time you saw core necro in a raid?

[Shiyo.3578]

Being 30% behind top classes is essentially playing GW2 on a harder difficulty where every boss has 30% more HP and has 30% higher chance of using mechanics and wiping you.

So no, playing reaper is not "fine".

[Sobx.1758]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

You clearly have no idea about reapers rotation and it's tankyness.

1. Reaper isn't more tanky than other classes. Yes it has -together with warrior- the highest base health and a trait that heals the necro while out of shroud. BUT: it doesn't have any utility for the group. So if we take a guardian -with the lowest base health- we see, that it first of all has more armor, and second has a lot more group utility. You can take stand your ground to provide 10man stability, have aegis for your group, can provide a bit of fury or might support from sword or shelter and -and that's crucial - is basically immune to damage while litany of wrath is up. Reaper has a serious problem with taking damage while in shroud. But I'll come back to that later.
2. Reaper is rng dependant because reaper isn't critcapped outside of shroud. This can lead to 34,2k golem dps, but easily can also be only 32k dps. So if you're extremely unlucky your dps will drop noticably
3. Reaper rotation is a lot harder than you might think. The current max golem dps rotation takes much more skill to do correctly than a renegade or guard rotation. You basically need to cancel every Aftercast of all those gravediggers, then the Aftercast of every gs5, also be extremely careful, that you don't interrupt your wells before you go into shroud and then you have the problem, that you're out of lifeforce, when the 4m health golem dies. I didn't get to test this rotation in a real fight but as soon as there's area tick dmg or incoming damage while in shroud and there's no adds that might refill your lifeforce, this rotation isn't doable anymore. Not to mention that you will really annoy your healer, with that shroud.

You can't take open world builds as measurement. And you can easily obtain similar survivability on other classes if you don't play the snowcrows builds, while doing similar damage like necro.Core necromancer is unusable for raids and lacking in open world.

I mean.. that's just false.

Back it up...

What exactly is unusable about it? You can put a necro in dps slots and easly/comfortably complete nearly every raid encounter.I'm also not sure how it's "lacking in open world", it's perfectly fine to do anything it needs to do there.

I look at benches and statistics. Apparently feelings are more popular....

When is the last time you saw core necro in a raid?

...are you saying what I wrote isn't true? :D

[Sobx.1758]

@Shiyo.3578 said:Being 30% behind top classes is essentially playing GW2 on a harder difficulty where every boss has 30% more HP and has 30% higher chance of using mechanics and wiping you.

I mean there's a whole thread about it going in circles for 10 pages, I don't see the reason to bring this everywhere anything about necro gets mentioned, but k.

[Obtena.7952]

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer.

Really ... and what did Anet say they were trying to accomplish? Seems to me the changes they made are exactly inline with what they told us they want for necro. To be frank, you DID get a DPS increase and you DID claim this would make Necros better.

@Josiah.2967 said:Any DPS increase will make things better.

You have no reason to be frustrated ... You got exactly what you said would make things better ... unless you never believed that in the first place.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

You clearly have no idea about reapers rotation and it's tankyness.

1. Reaper isn't more tanky than other classes. Yes it has -together with warrior- the highest base health and a trait that heals the necro while out of shroud. BUT: it doesn't have any utility for the group. So if we take a guardian -with the lowest base health- we see, that it first of all has more armor, and second has a lot more group utility. You can take stand your ground to provide 10man stability, have aegis for your group, can provide a bit of fury or might support from sword or shelter and -and that's crucial - is basically immune to damage while litany of wrath is up. Reaper has a serious problem with taking damage while in shroud. But I'll come back to that later.
2. Reaper is rng dependant because reaper isn't critcapped outside of shroud. This can lead to 34,2k golem dps, but easily can also be only 32k dps. So if you're extremely unlucky your dps will drop noticably
3. Reaper rotation is a lot harder than you might think. The current max golem dps rotation takes much more skill to do correctly than a renegade or guard rotation. You basically need to cancel every Aftercast of all those gravediggers, then the Aftercast of every gs5, also be extremely careful, that you don't interrupt your wells before you go into shroud and then you have the problem, that you're out of lifeforce, when the 4m health golem dies. I didn't get to test this rotation in a real fight but as soon as there's area tick dmg or incoming damage while in shroud and there's no adds that might refill your lifeforce, this rotation isn't doable anymore. Not to mention that you will really annoy your healer, with that shroud.

You can't take open world builds as measurement. And you can easily obtain similar survivability on other classes if you don't play the snowcrows builds, while doing similar damage like necro.Core necromancer is unusable for raids and lacking in open world.

I mean.. that's just false.

Back it up...

What exactly is unusable about it? You can put a necro in dps slots and easly/comfortably complete nearly every raid encounter.I'm also not sure how it's "lacking in open world", it's perfectly fine to do anything it needs to do there.

When is the last time you saw core necro in a raid?

Yeah core necro is never seen in raids, but when is the last time you saw a core class in a raid? I can kinda see Core Guard and Warrior to some degree but come on, All core classes are sub par compared to elite specs

[Josiah.2967]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Josiah.2967" said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer.

Really ... and what did Anet say they were trying to accomplish? Seems to me the changes they made are exactly inline with what they told us they want for necro. We get that you are massively disappointing that this isn't the "20% DPS increase" patch that you were looking forward to but to be frank, you DID get a DPS increase and you DID claim this would make Necros better for what you wanted for them ... so from where I sit, you got what you said you wanted.

Do you selectively read what I say/request?

I wanted minion changes: Did not happenI wanted Scourge DPS to be viable: Did not happenNot going to comment on the brutal WVW nerf...including the wells changes I can no longer talent if I wanted to.Something I occasionally use was removed and replaced with something you call a design fail.The DPS buff you are talking about was insignificant... 33% loss to 30% loss.... This is not what I asked for.They even made a simpler spec do DPS closer to our top performing harder spec for some reason... Did not want.

I can keep going; however, I will stop there....

[Josiah.2967]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

You clearly have no idea about reapers rotation and it's tankyness.

1. Reaper isn't more tanky than other classes. Yes it has -together with warrior- the highest base health and a trait that heals the necro while out of shroud. BUT: it doesn't have any utility for the group. So if we take a guardian -with the lowest base health- we see, that it first of all has more armor, and second has a lot more group utility. You can take stand your ground to provide 10man stability, have aegis for your group, can provide a bit of fury or might support from sword or shelter and -and that's crucial - is basically immune to damage while litany of wrath is up. Reaper has a serious problem with taking damage while in shroud. But I'll come back to that later.
2. Reaper is rng dependant because reaper isn't critcapped outside of shroud. This can lead to 34,2k golem dps, but easily can also be only 32k dps. So if you're extremely unlucky your dps will drop noticably
3. Reaper rotation is a lot harder than you might think. The current max golem dps rotation takes much more skill to do correctly than a renegade or guard rotation. You basically need to cancel every Aftercast of all those gravediggers, then the Aftercast of every gs5, also be extremely careful, that you don't interrupt your wells before you go into shroud and then you have the problem, that you're out of lifeforce, when the 4m health golem dies. I didn't get to test this rotation in a real fight but as soon as there's area tick dmg or incoming damage while in shroud and there's no adds that might refill your lifeforce, this rotation isn't doable anymore. Not to mention that you will really annoy your healer, with that shroud.

You can't take open world builds as measurement. And you can easily obtain similar survivability on other classes if you don't play the snowcrows builds, while doing similar damage like necro.Core necromancer is unusable for raids and lacking in open world.

I mean.. that's just false.

Back it up...

What exactly is unusable about it? You can put a necro in dps slots and easly/comfortably complete nearly every raid encounter.I'm also not sure how it's "lacking in open world", it's perfectly fine to do anything it needs to do there.

When is the last time you saw core necro in a raid?

Yeah core necro is never seen in raids, but when is the last time you saw a core class in a raid? I can kinda see Core Guard and Warrior to some degree but come on, All core classes are sub par compared to elite specs

Thank you for agreeing. Not sure why anyone thought it was viable.

[Sobx.1758]

No answer, so... yeah, definitely what I've quoted was false.

[Obtena.7952]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer.

Really ... and what did Anet say they were trying to accomplish? Seems to me the changes they made are exactly inline with what they told us they want for necro. We get that you are massively disappointing that this isn't the "20% DPS increase" patch that you were looking forward to but to be frank, you DID get a DPS increase and you DID claim this would make Necros better for what you wanted for them ... so from where I sit, you got what you said you wanted.

Do you selectively read what I say/request?

No I didn't. I LITERALLY responded to you ... you can see it in the quotation I've made. I mean, if you are under the impression that Anet is going to fill a specific request from a player ... I don't think you understand how these changes work then. You made a whole thread where you asked for more necro DPS ... you got it ... now you're frustrated. Honestly, I don't think you know what you want.

[Josiah.2967]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer.

Really ... and what did Anet say they were trying to accomplish? Seems to me the changes they made are exactly inline with what they told us they want for necro. We get that you are massively disappointing that this isn't the "20% DPS increase" patch that you were looking forward to but to be frank, you DID get a DPS increase and you DID claim this would make Necros better for what you wanted for them ... so from where I sit, you got what you said you wanted.

Do you selectively read what I say/request?

No I didn't. I LITERALLY responded to you ... you can see it in the quotation I've made. I mean, if you are under the impression that Anet is going to fill a specific request from a player ... I don't think you understand how these changes work then. You made a whole thread where you asked for more necro DPS ... you got it ... now you're frustrated. Honestly, I don't think you know what you want.

You literally respond to all my necromancer or guardian posts. Playing naive now.... Interesting stradegy.

Can someone explain the definition of trolling?

[Sobx.1758]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Being 30% behind top classes is essentially playing GW2 on a harder difficulty where every boss has 30% more HP and has 30% higher chance of using mechanics and wiping you.

So no, playing reaper is not "fine".

Nah, reaper is still fine. If you want better raid balance then make their mechanics unskippable with dps, doubt that was intentional in the first place.

[Josiah.2967]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Being 30% behind top classes is essentially playing GW2 on a harder difficulty where every boss has 30% more HP and has 30% higher chance of using mechanics and wiping you.

So no, playing reaper is not "fine".

Nah, reaper is still fine. If you want better raid balance then make their mechanics unskippable with dps, doubt that was intentional in the first place.

What?

[Sobx.1758]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Being 30% behind top classes is essentially playing GW2 on a harder difficulty where every boss has 30% more HP and has 30% higher chance of using mechanics and wiping you.

So no, playing reaper is not "fine".

Nah, reaper is still fine. If you want better raid balance then make their mechanics unskippable with dps, doubt that was intentional in the first place.

What?

What what?

Also you've missed this post https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1291463/#Comment_1291463

[Shiyo.3578]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Being 30% behind top classes is essentially playing GW2 on a harder difficulty where every boss has 30% more HP and has 30% higher chance of using mechanics and wiping you.

So no, playing reaper is not "fine".

Nah, reaper is still fine. If you want better raid balance then make their mechanics unskippable with dps, doubt that was intentional in the first place.

You can skip mechanics by doing damage fast in every MMORPG ever made.

[Sobx.1758]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Being 30% behind top classes is essentially playing GW2 on a harder difficulty where every boss has 30% more HP and has 30% higher chance of using mechanics and wiping you.

So no, playing reaper is not "fine".

Nah, reaper is still fine. If you want better raid balance then make their mechanics unskippable with dps, doubt that was intentional in the first place.

You can skip mechanics by doing damage fast in every MMORPG ever made.

Pretty sure that's also false.

And it doesn't change anything I wrote above.

[Lily.1935]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

You clearly have no idea about reapers rotation and it's tankyness.

1. Reaper isn't more tanky than other classes. Yes it has -together with warrior- the highest base health and a trait that heals the necro while out of shroud. BUT: it doesn't have any utility for the group. So if we take a guardian -with the lowest base health- we see, that it first of all has more armor, and second has a lot more group utility. You can take stand your ground to provide 10man stability, have aegis for your group, can provide a bit of fury or might support from sword or shelter and -and that's crucial - is basically immune to damage while litany of wrath is up. Reaper has a serious problem with taking damage while in shroud. But I'll come back to that later.
2. Reaper is rng dependant because reaper isn't critcapped outside of shroud. This can lead to 34,2k golem dps, but easily can also be only 32k dps. So if you're extremely unlucky your dps will drop noticably
3. Reaper rotation is a lot harder than you might think. The current max golem dps rotation takes much more skill to do correctly than a renegade or guard rotation. You basically need to cancel every Aftercast of all those gravediggers, then the Aftercast of every gs5, also be extremely careful, that you don't interrupt your wells before you go into shroud and then you have the problem, that you're out of lifeforce, when the 4m health golem dies. I didn't get to test this rotation in a real fight but as soon as there's area tick dmg or incoming damage while in shroud and there's no adds that might refill your lifeforce, this rotation isn't doable anymore. Not to mention that you will really annoy your healer, with that shroud.

You can't take open world builds as measurement. And you can easily obtain similar survivability on other classes if you don't play the snowcrows builds, while doing similar damage like necro.Core necromancer is unusable for raids and lacking in open world.

I mean.. that's just false.

It isn't, but you need to also quote the reasons why. Core necromancer is just very slow DPS. Their highest DPS build being condi core is far behind both Scourge and reaper. They have some quality traits they can take advantage of but they lack the available skills to really run away with them. Core lacks the modifiers necessary for power outside of shroud and in shroud their strongest striking move life blast has a large after cast delay along with a high warm up time while also dealing far less damage than the reaper's auto in reaper's shroud. In WvW or PvP life blast hits like a truck. That is true, but this doesn't translate to PvE where most classes deal there high damage bursts through a rotation. Where core doesn't have a rotation in shroud. Worse still doom now both has a cast time and an after cast delay which also breaks it's own targeting making a potential terror build even more difficult to run with a high failure rate.

The conflicts don't end there either. Although core can hit the condi cap duration without a problem, especially with bleeding, they lack a real means to take advantage of their traits and skills. Unlike reaper which has decimate defenses as well as high chill synergy for high bleeds and how Scourge has multiple no interruption cast strikes through shades and bonus buring and torment as well as a free transfer for blood is power, core has none of this. The one potential advantage the core might have over the other two is spiteful signet which could make spamming signet of suffering a viable means of DPS. The big issue with that is Suffering has a massive cooldown which requires a long duration in shroud which drops your DPS heavily, no means to see the cooldowns, no utility skills can be used in shroud and you can't use scepter which is one the primary sources of damage. Dagger is not even close to comparable in Dps to torch and it's the best condi off hand for damage the core necromancer has. Now dagger has its uses, for sure, but it isn't used on scourge at all. Scourge either opting for two torches or a torch warhorn for the extra CC.

Now we can look at a support build. There isn't any. Core does not have the means to provide meaningful support. You have blood magic, wells, blood is power, and signet of Undeath. The issue with all of these is they're high cooldown resources that could ge good in a moment but you can't rely on them to keep allies alive for extended periods of time like the scourge can. Like the firebrand can, like the druid can, like the elements can, like the engineer can. And they don't provide enough utility for a group giving minor might and condi conversation which both scourge and engineer can do more frequently and just better.

Okay, so dps is out of the question, Support is out of the question, what about tanking? Consider tanks need to also be support roles in the group this too is a no go. If arena net changes the way agro works not to work off toughness, not just off toughness but a threat system closer to other MMOs and made it extremely difficult to both support and tank at the same time while also having bosses deal bonus damage to those they're threatened to, mmm. Maybe, but I think reaper would still hold that role. Probably Revenant, warrior and Guardian would have an easier time holding it as well since core necromancer doesn't even have the proper tools for this hypothetical tanking... lacking taunt or a skill that could generate a hypothetical threat level.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Lily.1935" said:The one potential advantage the core might have over the other two is spiteful signet which could make spamming signet of suffering a viable means of DPS. The big issue with that is Suffering has a massive cooldown which requires a long duration in shroud which drops your DPS heavily, no means to see the cooldowns, no utility skills can be used in shroud and you can't use scepter which is one the primary sources of damage.

This part make no sense at all. One, Signet of suffering is the trait. And two, even with signet of suffering, using the active part of signet of spite would be a mistake for anything that's not PvP.

Okay, so dps is out of the question, Support is out of the question, what about tanking? Consider tanks need to also be support roles in the group this too is a no go. If arena net changes the way agro works not to work off toughness, not just off toughness but a threat system closer to other MMOs and made it extremely difficult to both support and tank at the same time while also having bosses deal bonus damage to those they're threatened to, mmm. Maybe, but I think reaper would still hold that role. Probably Revenant, warrior and Guardian would have an easier time holding it as well since core necromancer doesn't even have the proper tools for this hypothetical tanking... lacking taunt or a skill that could generate a hypothetical threat level.

One of the main reason why any other profession would be better at tanking than a necromancer is that the necromancer is poor at taking on CCs, it's defense design favouring taking on hits while other favour nullifying them. Not being able to keep it's footing is the fatal weakness that prevent the necromancer from aiming for a "tank" spot, it's "control" being done throught conditions that don't even phase boss.

All in all, the defiance system is against the necromancer being a tank. In fact the defiance system is the nemesis of the necromancer's design in PvE. It might do a sufficiently satisfying job for the majority of the other professions but for the necromancer it's just an unfair disadvantage.