Upcoming Balance Notes

[Obtena.7952]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer.

Really ... and what did Anet say they were trying to accomplish? Seems to me the changes they made are exactly inline with what they told us they want for necro. We get that you are massively disappointing that this isn't the "20% DPS increase" patch that you were looking forward to but to be frank, you DID get a DPS increase and you DID claim this would make Necros better for what you wanted for them ... so from where I sit, you got what you said you wanted.

Do you selectively read what I say/request?

No I didn't. I LITERALLY responded to you ... you can see it in the quotation I've made. I mean, if you are under the impression that Anet is going to fill a specific request from a player ... I don't think you understand how these changes work then. You made a whole thread where you asked for more necro DPS ... you got it ... now you're frustrated. Honestly, I don't think you know what you want.

You literally respond to all my necromancer or guardian posts.

All? I don't think that's true ... just the ones with mis-information. Anet certain DID make changes in this patch that are aligned with what they were trying to do and you shouldn't be frustrated because the patch gave you exactly what you said you wanted in other threads to improve necro. Maybe if you get what you want and it doesn't fix your problems, then you need to adjust your thinking ... DPS isn't going to fix what's wrong with necro for PVE teaming.

[Lily.1935]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Lily.1935" said:The one potential advantage the core might have over the other two is spiteful signet which could make spamming signet of suffering a viable means of DPS. The big issue with that is Suffering has a massive cooldown which requires a long duration in shroud which drops your DPS heavily, no means to see the cooldowns, no utility skills can be used in shroud and you can't use scepter which is one the primary sources of damage.

This part make no sense at all. One,

Signet of suffering

is the trait. And two, even with

signet of suffering

, using the active part of

signet of spite

would be a mistake for anything that's not PvP.

Okay, so dps is out of the question, Support is out of the question, what about tanking? Consider tanks need to also be support roles in the group this too is a no go. If arena net changes the way agro works not to work off toughness, not just off toughness but a threat system closer to other MMOs and made it extremely difficult to both support and tank at the same time while also having bosses deal bonus damage to those they're threatened to, mmm. Maybe, but I think reaper would still hold that role. Probably Revenant, warrior and Guardian would have an easier time holding it as well since core necromancer doesn't even have the proper tools for this hypothetical tanking... lacking taunt or a skill that could generate a hypothetical threat level.

One of the main reason why any other profession would be better at tanking than a necromancer is that the necromancer is poor at taking on CCs, it's defense design favouring taking on hits while other favour nullifying them. Not being able to keep it's footing is the fatal weakness that prevent the necromancer from aiming for a "tank" spot, it's "control" being done throught conditions that don't even phase boss.

All in all, the defiance system is against the necromancer being a tank. In fact the defiance system is the nemesis of the necromancer's design in PvE. It might do a sufficiently satisfying job for the majority of the other professions but for the necromancer it's just an unfair disadvantage.

Sorry, I get those mixed up all the time. Signet of suffering and signet of spite. Easy mistake to make. As it stands now, no it can't. The cooldown would need to be closer to 30 seconds in pve without a trait in order for it to function as a viable DPS option for Core necromancer. I have tested it on necromancer, and its cool down is too slow. IT DOES make sense as an option if you look beyond what's directly in front of you and see the missing potential of a skill. Wouldn't need to be so high if entering shroud wasn't such a massive DPS loss for core necro, but I digress.

As for the second part... LIke, yeah, I know.... Don't need to explain this stuff to me, didn't go into it because I felt it was pretty obvious.

[ZipTaw.9841]

Does this get to be tested out first before it becomes permanent? Why keep messing with WvW, it's a mash of both PvE and PvP, stop messing with PvE and WvW, you're making it harder for new players or people who want to try a little PvP. By making a change to skills that should be for PvP only is only going to cause issues with how viable builds are going to be in PvE. And making players have to use only one build because you keep hammering stuff is going to keep players that can't do it well to miss out on content. And if you're going to make said content where the players can't use what they're proficient in then why bother doing it. There shouldn't be that big of a gap between builds of other professions, and so you make just another below average MMORPG that gamers can find in other titles instead of standing out ahead of those other titles.

Scenario: PvE player comes into WvW with same build as they use in PvE, doesn't realize that skills changed to different cooldowns and less damage cause lazy people don't want to do PvP only content, said player is say a level 33 with little experience playing the game and knows they can do WvW with their lower level, but can't figure out why their skills seem to be lacking and taking alot longer before they can use the skill again. Dabbler leaves WvW and doesn't return because of the negative experience. Is this the intention?

That same dabbler can't take their level 33 to do PvP only content. So there is one way to look at things. And implementing something without player testing is a bad thing.

[ZipTaw.9841]

@Nebilim.5127 said:Before you bend over to the people whining about WvW scourge, please consider doing the nerf only in WvW. Reduce the number of people the self shade and the shade can hit to 2 each which should please those people. But for the love of god, keep the way it is in PvE

I disagree with you on the WvW, but I agree with you on the leaving PvE alone.

[Anchoku.8142]

Necro plays differently from all other professions. It can soak up massive DoT but can be quickly overwhelmed by burst damage. It has no skills that provide 100% immunity. Instead it has skills that provide immunity to an amount equal to Life Force. This means only a variable amount of burst is mitigated.

Protection gives 50% damage reduction and resistance helps, too. Dodge and other immunity skills give 100%. Play styles for all other professions consider this as baseline. The logic gates for Necro incoming damage mitigation are fundamentally different than other professions. That means Necro is often OP in open world PvE where bursts are smaller and LF generation is higher. Large bursts from bosses or from characters in PvP or WvW exhaust the LF pool leaving the Necro vulnerable (without LF). It is a lagging indicator of player performance and luck.

Life Force is the fuel; not some cool down timer. Aside from 2 dodges and the few interrupts, sustain is derived from LF generation. That is why taking low-rate damage makes Necro look strong, yet be such easy prey when CC'd and/or bursted. It is all about scaling in damage mitigation.

[Ryou.2398]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer.

Really ... and what did Anet say they were trying to accomplish? Seems to me the changes they made are exactly inline with what they told us they want for necro. We get that you are massively disappointing that this isn't the "20% DPS increase" patch that you were looking forward to but to be frank, you DID get a DPS increase and you DID claim this would make Necros better for what you wanted for them ... so from where I sit, you got what you said you wanted.

Do you selectively read what I say/request?

No I didn't. I LITERALLY responded to you ... you can see it in the quotation I've made. I mean, if you are under the impression that Anet is going to fill a specific request from a player ... I don't think you understand how these changes work then. You made a whole thread where you asked for more necro DPS ... you got it ... now you're frustrated. Honestly, I don't think you know what you want.

You literally respond to all my necromancer or guardian posts.

All? I don't think that's true ... just the ones with mis-information. Anet certain DID make changes in this patch that are aligned with what they were trying to do and you shouldn't be frustrated because the patch gave you

exactly

what you said you wanted in other threads to improve necro. Maybe if you get what you want and it doesn't fix your problems, then you need to adjust your thinking ... DPS isn't going to fix what's wrong with necro for PVE teaming.

Interesting you mind proving how some of them they are misinformation? I find it odd how many posts you label as misinformation personally and I always find your responses interesting, also he is righ, I see you constantly respond to many class criticisms since I have ever joined this forums years ago, that saids allot when you come back time to time and your atleast in the top pages somewhere.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer.

Really ... and what did Anet say they were trying to accomplish? Seems to me the changes they made are exactly inline with what they told us they want for necro. We get that you are massively disappointing that this isn't the "20% DPS increase" patch that you were looking forward to but to be frank, you DID get a DPS increase and you DID claim this would make Necros better for what you wanted for them ... so from where I sit, you got what you said you wanted.

Do you selectively read what I say/request?

No I didn't. I LITERALLY responded to you ... you can see it in the quotation I've made. I mean, if you are under the impression that Anet is going to fill a specific request from a player ... I don't think you understand how these changes work then. You made a whole thread where you asked for more necro DPS ... you got it ... now you're frustrated. Honestly, I don't think you know what you want.

You literally respond to all my necromancer or guardian posts.

All? I don't think that's true ... just the ones with mis-information. Anet certain DID make changes in this patch that are aligned with what they were trying to do and you shouldn't be frustrated because the patch gave you

exactly

what you said you wanted in other threads to improve necro. Maybe if you get what you want and it doesn't fix your problems, then you need to adjust your thinking ... DPS isn't going to fix what's wrong with necro for PVE teaming.

Interesting you mind proving how some of them they are misinformation? I find it odd how many posts you label as misinformation personally and I always find your responses interesting, also he is righ, I see you constantly respond to many class criticisms since I have ever joined this forums years ago, that saids allot when you come back time to time and your atleast in the top pages somewhere.

He can't be right ... he claimed the patch didn't do anything Anet wanted to accomplish ... he could never know if that's true or not; that's something Anet decides for themselves. Then proceeds to use that opinion as the basis for his frustration. Seems like a lot of misplaced blame.

I mean, someone makes a massive necro needs DPS thread ... they get a DPS increase in a patch a week later ... then they are frustrated with the changes? That certainly begs for an explanation, especially when their claim was that any DPS will be good for necros to improve their teaming desirability.

Honestly, it is not unreasonable to question this EVERY time it's brought up; for as much as people claim they know the solution and argue so hard to justify it ... they get the solution they want and it NEVER fixes the problem. How many patches do are needed to convince people that necro getting DPS increases is not going to make them team desirable in PVE? I think we are at least up to three now.

[Josiah.2967]

After much consideration, I have decided to take the high road. Please check someones post history and edit changes. You can clearly see which users edit things and twist their narrative when they are busted.

I feel for Scourge players right now. The over reacting knee jerk was terrible.

[Doctor.1384]

Having a permanent level cap is pointless if your build is no longer viable after one balance patch and you then have to change stats for a different build.

[Obtena.7952]

Whatever anyone want's to think about me, what I say or how I say it ... nothing is more obvious that the reality that EVERY time we get a balance patch where necros get DPS and are still not team desirable ... it's PROOF that pushing DPS on necro to increase that desirability is not a solution to getting teams. EVERY TIME.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Josiah.2967" said:After much consideration, I have decided to take the high road. Please check someones post history and edit changes. You can clearly see which users edit things and twist their narrative when they are busted.

Imagine vaguely telling people to "check some user's edit changes"(?) and claiming you're taking the high road. You need to be a little more specific with your weird accusations. Which users/posts are you referring to?

[Josiah.2967]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Josiah.2967" said:After much consideration, I have decided to take the high road. Please check someones post history and edit changes. You can clearly see which users edit things and twist their narrative when they are busted.

Imagine vaguely telling people to "check some user's edit changes"(?) and claiming you're taking the high road. You need to be a little more specific with your weird accusations. Which users/posts are you referring to?

Please keep the discussion on topic. Just like benchmarks...the chat history tells all. If your curious, look. If not, move on and discuss the balance patch. :-)

After more testing, Reapers are doing decent in WVW zergs. Not the top; however, it is a nice change of pace.

[Sobx.1758]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:After much consideration, I have decided to take the high road. Please check someones post history and edit changes. You can clearly see which users edit things and twist their narrative when they are busted.

Imagine vaguely telling people to "check some user's edit changes"(?) and claiming you're taking the high road. You need to be a little more specific with your weird accusations. Which users/posts are you referring to?

Please keep the discussion on topic. Just like benchmarks...the chat history tells all. If your curious, look. If not, move on and discuss the balance patch. :-)

Keep the discussion on topic? Aren't you the one that came back 6 days later just to make some vague accusation about... actually not sure who, because you didn't include any link or quote? I'm merely answering to your post -if I'm not on topic then neither were you.

And yes, I am curious, which is exactly why I'm asking you to specify, but you just decide to dodge instead. At this point I'm not sure why you even decided to write what you wrote, but it surely wasn't "taking the high road".

After more testing, Reapers are doing decent in WVW zergs. Not the top; however, it is a nice change of pace.

Yay, necros finally doing well in wvw! ;) ;)

[lare.5129]

on this upcoming changes exist any question how now after warclaw "fix" people can do achievement "finish n downstate players"?

[Sobx.1758]

@"lare.5129" said:on this upcoming changes exist any question how now after warclaw "fix" people can do achievement "finish n downstate players"?

It's in the patchnotes -using the warclaw skill counts towards the achievement, no need to finish the target.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Josiah.2967 said:After more testing, Reapers are doing decent in WVW zergs. Not the top; however, it is a nice change of pace.

But I always did well in zergs with my Reaper... Dive in, Shroud, Spin to Win, GTFO, repeat as needed. Same as any melee not reduced to bubble duty. Just know when to dive in and when to dive out.

[Zeesh.7286]

When were necros ever BAD at WvW???????????????? Were the several instances since I joined back last year where teams running meta compositions prioritized Necros for heals and support access over my dps staff weaver all in my head?? Or did I hallucinate when people would ask extra mesmers to swap to Necros in zergs because they only needed like 1 or 2 in the squad of 50?

[Obtena.7952]

^^ yeah seriously ... necros have always done well in WvW ... anyone that thinks there is a "nice change of pace" there is probably too inexperienced to know better.

[JohnWater.5760]

@Senqu.8054 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Senqu.8054 said:Great more nerfs to chrono this is exactly what we need!

those are buffs dummy

Nope they are not. IP is the only real buff here. F1 got nerfed F2 got nerfed F3 got nerfed. The other changes are not worth to talk about

Nerfed but still the highest DPS in all PvE contents.With a difference of 8k dps from the second place.

[Lily.1935]

@Obtena.7952 said:Whatever anyone want's to think about me, what I say or how I say it ... nothing is more obvious that the reality that EVERY time we get a balance patch where necros get DPS and are still not team desirable ... it's PROOF that pushing DPS on necro to increase that desirability is not a solution to getting teams. EVERY TIME.

Here's the issue. Necromancer did not get much of a DPS increase. They got a minor one for a build that is still behind and a major one for a build that was literally dead on the release of PoF. And it still lags behind the other necromancer builds.

When talking about their builds. Most changes are minor quality of life changes or even nerfs but don't actually change their DPS in the slightest.

Take scourge for example. Their DPS hasn't improved much or noticeably at all since the Singet of Undeath change even though they've gone through massive changes in PvE as well as the other modes.

The necromancer needs a lot of work. Not just a 0.66% damage increase when they lag behind every other profession in PvE in every area.

But I don't mind them being low DPS. What I do mind is they offer so little at the same time. While a comparable low DPS build, Banner warrior, offers a lot of party buffs and utility.

Epidemic is their best utility, hands down and if a similar skill was on another class like Rev or mesmer necromancer would become extremely rare.

This isn't to say the necromancer doesn't have other good utility. They do. Signet of Undeath is fantastic on both ends, although its passive is uniquely good only on necromancer. Corrosive poison cloud is a good utility as well but is outclassed by other projectile block skills that just offer better utility. Spectral grasp is great. Plague lands is probably one of the highest personal DPS boosts in the game.

Necromancer also has some fantastic traits which can put other classes' traits to shame in comparison in many ways. Transfusion is insanely effective, they have a 10% damage boost against foes without boons, massive ferocity increases while in reaper's shroud, extremely high condition damage bonuses.

But a lot of that is combine with a relatively clunky and slow class. Much of its design needs to be around the life force mechanic which is focused around shroud which shroud is a jarring mechanic in itself which breaks any flow you would normally have on any other class. Reaper's shroud improves this over Death should but is still extremely clunky and The Sand Shades improve the flow over reaper's shroud but add it's own form of clunkyness the shrouds don't have.

Nothing about the necromancer is streamlined. There are simple improvements that could be made to make them competitive as a DPS. But those simple solutions don't solve the clunkyness of the class overall. And the lack of real identity on what niche the necromancer is supposed to fill in PvE leaves the play base wanting. And the one niche I'd argue the necromancer should be extremely good at is usurped by the firebrand who basically fills that exact same role the necromancer desires to fill but 100% better.

[Obtena.7952]

@Lily.1935 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Whatever anyone want's to think about me, what I say or how I say it ... nothing is more obvious that the reality that EVERY time we get a balance patch where necros get DPS and are still not team desirable ... it's PROOF that pushing DPS on necro to increase that desirability is not a solution to getting teams. EVERY TIME.

Here's the issue. Necromancer did not get much of a DPS increase. They got a minor one for a build that is still behind and a major one for a build that was literally dead on the release of PoF. And it still lags behind the other necromancer builds.

Yeah I know ... and the context here is that this is a reply to a poster whose claim is that the idea that ANY DPS is good for necro for meta PUG teams is good for necro. That idea doesn't make sense ... it will NEVER make sense. We have multiple instances that proves it's doesn't. We also know that's not how Anet thinks or changes the game. Again ... MANY instances and a long game history that proves it.

I'm fully aware of everything you are saying here, especially the part where you indicate necro doesn't offer much ... THAT is the problem that needs to be fixed if necros are going to be accepted in meta PUGs ... NOT more DPS.

[Taril.8619]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Whatever anyone want's to think about me, what I say or how I say it ... nothing is more obvious that the reality that EVERY time we get a balance patch where necros get DPS and are still not team desirable ... it's PROOF that pushing DPS on necro to increase that desirability is not a solution to getting teams. EVERY TIME.

Here's the issue. Necromancer did not get much of a DPS increase. They got a minor one for a build that is still behind and a major one for a build that was literally dead on the release of PoF. And it still lags behind the other necromancer builds.

I'm fully aware of everything you are saying here, especially the part where you indicate necro doesn't offer much ... THAT is the problem that needs to be fixed if necros are going to be accepted in meta PUGs ... NOT more DPS.

Either one could work honestly.

If Necro was doing high DPS, people would accept them more readily into parties. Especially if support roles have already been covered (I.e. You got your 2x Quickbrand, 1x Alacrigade, 1x Heal Druid, 1x Tank (Chrono/Druid/Renegade)) so the only requirement you're looking for in the remaining party slots are just raw DPS.

Same as if they had good and relevant utility. Where they could find a place in one of the support roles depending on what utility they are providing.

One of the issues with just giving them utility though, is that you have relevant utility providing classes whom ALSO deal more damage than Necro (FB/Ren notably) meaning that just giving them utility won't necessarily make them accepted in PuG's (Especially ones with ignorami that are looking to filter classes based on SC's benchmarks)

Though, either way, I don't think that Necro will end up getting either. Not while the class mechanic functions as such and the class design is kept the way that it is (I.e. The shroud mechanics mixing damage output and defensive boosts and the design of "Support via debuffs" in a game where Defiance exists in its current state). Especially when a major part of Reaper DPS is: Press F1 > Auto attack which makes it a very easy way to achieve a significant amount of potential DPS (Which is why random plebs can perform better DPS as Necro than with "Meta" classes that require actual skill usages for their DPS)

[Obtena.7952]

@Taril.8619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Whatever anyone want's to think about me, what I say or how I say it ... nothing is more obvious that the reality that EVERY time we get a balance patch where necros get DPS and are still not team desirable ... it's PROOF that pushing DPS on necro to increase that desirability is not a solution to getting teams. EVERY TIME.

Here's the issue. Necromancer did not get much of a DPS increase. They got a minor one for a build that is still behind and a major one for a build that was literally dead on the release of PoF. And it still lags behind the other necromancer builds.

I'm fully aware of everything you are saying here, especially the part where you indicate necro doesn't offer much ... THAT is the problem that needs to be fixed if necros are going to be accepted in meta PUGs ... NOT more DPS.

Either one could work honestly.

Sure ... either can work ... but one has more chance than the other of actually happening. This is why one is a solution and the other isn't.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Zeesh.7286" said:When were necros ever BAD at WvW???????????????? Were the several instances since I joined back last year where teams running meta compositions prioritized Necros for heals and support access over my dps staff weaver all in my head?? Or did I hallucinate when people would ask extra mesmers to swap to Necros in zergs because they only needed like 1 or 2 in the squad of 50?

It always depend on the point of view and the priorities of each players.

To put it simply, you look at zerg requirements and say: "The necromancer is great in WvW!" while another player try it's hand at solo roaming and say: "The necromancer suck in WvW!". Both statement are true, both you and the other player are right. Now, does Zerg v Zerg define WvW or is it roaming? Technically both gameplay are part of the gamemode, none define it more than the other.

In the end, the miscommunication come from the fact that the necromancer, even after 8 years and 2 e-spec, isn't a satisfying profession when it come to solo roaming while ANet invested way to much time into upgrading again and again it's zergling value making the already well performing zergmancer a must for zergling.

Next to that there is the PvE situation where the environment just strangle the necromancer's tool, leaving him in the state of a dried up husk of what he is in WvW zergling. From PvE players' point of view, the necromancer just lack value for it's group, lack the ability to combine it's strengths to other professions in order to reach the fabled "meta". The issue here is how ANet answer, giving again and again more tools that are suppressed to nothingness in PvE but invaluable in WvW/PvP.

ANet is stuck in a loop. Giving more thematic tools (suppressed by the environment) to support PvE and then being forced to nerf them in order to balance PvP/WvW where those tools strive. The true fix would have been to fix what suppress those tools in PvE, but 8 years in the game and they still seem oblivious to the issue and we've been through endless cycle of their poor balance (they even pushed more and more power into the shroud ending up making it both a offensive and defensive tool). Despite the fact that it "work" the profession is at the point where it's design is very arguable and probably no other game would keep such a design running in their game.

NB.: If you wonder, the major hurdle the necromancer's tools fail to pass is the defiance system, making a lot of conditions almost irrelevant and laughing at the face of boon corruptions. What doesn't help is that ANet don't seem to be able to introduce in it's design slow ramping conditions (except for the necromancer that is, which is an almost comic point).

[Senqu.8054]

@JohnWater.5760 said:

@Senqu.8054 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Senqu.8054 said:Great more nerfs to chrono this is exactly what we need!

those are buffs dummy

Nope they are not. IP is the only real buff here. F1 got nerfed F2 got nerfed F3 got nerfed. The other changes are not worth to talk about

Nerfed but still the highest DPS in all PvE contents.With a difference of 8k dps from the second place.

Yeah well I don’t really care about PvE