They removed the trade offs from other classes why did they keep the -300 toughness on Berserker

[Vancho.8750]

Berserker already has the trade off that it loses normal burts . Why do they always do everything half baked.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I vote that we get core F1s back when out of Bmode instead.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Berserke Trade offs:

• No Normal Burst
• Traits only work when Berserker is aktiv
• minus 300 Toughness
• Forced to take a Adrenalin Filling Skill to make it playable.
• Forced to take Rage Skills to make it playable.

Did i forget something?

And people complain when they get a tiny trade off like Soulbeast.

[Raizel Silverius.6430]

Yeah. Return back warrior's so called trade offs. Lets be honest here, their concept of trade off is now gone thanks to this upcoming balance patch and warrior still gets the unfair treatment.

Why? Is is because no one complains that much on the forum about how unfair the nerfs are with warrior? Or how utterly useless half of the buffs are? Or is it because it is deemed that warriors are balance? Or is it's actually the plan for a warrior to be Banner Slave until the end of GW2?

@"DanAlcedo.3281"You forgot the Cast Time for entering berserker. They added that cause "counter play" while necro can enter their shroud form anytime cause the indicator might be their HP BarOh and also this thing about Arc Divider cast time nerf cause its too fast for players to react while they can react to instant cast but yeah.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

The other classes didn't get tradeoffs removed, Chrono just had theirs changed a bit because it was so unfair no one played the class anymore. Nothing else that was modified was considered a "tradeoff" from what I've seen.

Soulbeast still can't swap pets, Scrapper still loses Vitality and elite toolbelt skill, etc.

The problem with Berserker isn't some measly tradeoff, its that Berserk Mode is only temporary and you have to use Rage skills to extend it. It'd be a much healthier subclass if you could use it like Death Shroud on Necro, only spending Adrenaline when you use Primal Burst skills and otherwise the bar would just slowly decrease over like 30sec with just autohits, etc.

This way you can take just Adrenaline-enhancing skills and traits (Warrior mechanic) to extend it instead. Once your utility bar isn't full of Rage skills just to make good use of the subclass you'll find builds are alot more interesting.

Traits should also continue to give at least half their bonus when outside of Berserk Mode.

Druid has alot of the same problems, its a bad idea to make limited-duration transforms that already need full energy bar to enter and can't be camped or flashed for tactics. Firebrand, Necro, Soulbeast, etc. don't work this way, just Berserker and Druid, and they're some of the least played subclasses in the game because of it, outside of a few niches where they shine.

[Raizel Silverius.6430]

I do agree that the other class still have trade off but their too weak to be called trade offs imho (compared to warrior at least)

Scrappers 300 vitality loss just level their HP with that of a ranger (OK. its 1K something lower) but in return they a passive gains barrier application in which 15% of their damage becomes barrier which literally makes up for the said vitality loss. Add also the fact that engineer kits has a lot of protection uptime as well as burst heals and barrier application, that 300 vitality means nothing in the general.

300 Toughness however is literally that. 300 Toughness loss that makes warrior's toughness plummet to 700. The ONLY class that can do it and the return is not that much in the general view of things. Sure warrior can equip the Eternal Champion GM trait to get it back but compared to Scrapper's Impact Savant that does not require anything then its really unfair.

Soulbeast not being able to swap pets sure is a nerf in the general play style but that's about it. People can argue that is a big thing when the core mechanic of rangers is the usage of pet but I'll throw back Berserker's lost of Core F1 (which is the core aspect of a warrior in general) into the table.

The way I look at this is that warrior's core gameplay of using and managing adrenaline goes nowhere when your not in berserk mode when you pick up berserker e-spec. IF ONLY they do what @Hannelore.8153 said then it will be a big change for warrior in which we can now control how we burst and how we use adrenaline for berserker but considering on how the warrior adrenaline mechanics work, its gonna be a very big change that I doubt Anet is gonna be doing.

[Taril.8619]

Berserker's "Tradeoff" really is pretty whack.

Like, not having core bursts and instead having Berserk Mode + Berserk Bursts is trade off enough. You're losing access to core class mechanic, but gaining Berserker class mechanic.

Beyond that... It seems like the 300 toughness reduction is a trade off against the 300 power and condi damage Berserk mode features (We'll not talk about Soulbeast's free 250 Power/Ferocity or Precision/Condi Damage from merge. Even more, we'll not talk about the 150 all stats, 300 ferocity and 30% movement speed they get when running Beast Mastery and are merged)

The other aspects of Berserker, being the need to hit Adrenaline 3 to be able to enter Berserk Mode (As opposed to Core/SB which can use Adrenaline 1 bursts) as well as the need to run Rage skills to maintain Berserk Mode just seems like terrible design choices, rather than an intentional "Tradeoff".

[Vancho.8750]

@Raizel Silverius.6430 said:I do agree that the other class still have trade off but their too weak to be called trade offs imho (compared to warrior at least)

Scrappers 300 vitality loss just level their HP with that of a ranger (OK. its 1K something lower) but in return they a passive gains barrier application in which 15% of their damage becomes barrier which literally makes up for the said vitality loss. Add also the fact that engineer kits has a lot of protection uptime as well as burst heals and barrier application, that 300 vitality means nothing in the general.

300 Toughness however is literally that. 300 Toughness loss that makes warrior's toughness plummet to 700. The ONLY class that can do it and the return is not that much in the general view of things. Sure warrior can equip the Eternal Champion GM trait to get it back but compared to Scrapper's Impact Savant that does not require anything then its really unfair.

Soulbeast not being able to swap pets sure is a nerf in the general play style but that's about it. People can argue that is a big thing when the core mechanic of rangers is the usage of pet but I'll throw back Berserker's lost of Core F1 (which is the core aspect of a warrior in general) into the table.

The way I look at this is that warrior's core gameplay of using and managing adrenaline goes nowhere when your not in berserk mode when you pick up berserker e-spec. IF ONLY they do what @"Hannelore.8153" said then it will be a big change for warrior in which we can now control how we burst and how we use adrenaline for berserker but considering on how the warrior adrenaline mechanics work, its gonna be a very big change that I doubt Anet is gonna be doing.The scrapper one even got toned down https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impact_Savant to -180.

[Lonecap.4105]

Yeah feels hopeless at times tbh. Why are they afraid to give warrior what it needs?

I legit wonder if I will live long enough in this world to see this class get some nice buffs.

[Lighter.5631]

@Vancho.8750 said:Berserker already has the trade off that it loses normal burts . Why do they always do everything half baked.

exactly, they also didnt revert the 25% damage nerf on arc divider, 25% damage nerf made sense pre feb 25th because damage overall was too high, but make no sense now. making arc divider completely noodle at the moment

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:Berserke Trade offs:

• No Normal Burst
• Traits only work when Berserker is aktiv
• minus 300 Toughness
• Forced to take a Adrenalin Filling Skill to make it playable.
• Forced to take Rage Skills to make it playable.

Did i forget something?

And people complain when they get a tiny trade off like Soulbeast.

you forget aboutdouble Cooldown gates for burst skills. one being 15 second global cooldown for berserk.also all burst skill related traits are double cooldown gated as well.aka 15 second forced cooldown on cleansing ire. a 0 cooldown grand master traitand building momentum.they gave berserker power and adrenal healths 15 second effect duration, but cleansing ire and building momentum are not continuous effect. really sad.

[Infusion.7149]

The worst part is unlike holo , shroud, celestial avatar. or soulbeast you can't get yourself out of berserk mode manually. If a F2 skill to end berserk mode (with a tradeoff if deemed necessary, maybe similar to overheat where you can't use it for a while if you use F2) was implemented that would be a huge QOL change. Right now if you see someone glow red in berserk mode in PvP/WvW you can kite / range them until they're dead unless they're some gimmick gunflame berserker.

At the least the armor penalty should be lowered in PVP (i.e. a light armor class is 1888 while warrior has 2167 so -300 armor is a huge detriment).

In PvE, the attack speed bonus doesn't seem to stack with quickness either.

[Chaarliee.2307]

Agreed. Some of the buffs to berserk were nice, but still has way to many trade offs as it is. Not to mention the playabilty of berserker, totally dependant of adrenaline filling skills. Hate that when you are playing a certain type of warrior you MUST take some utility skills (like rage skills on berserker), or otherwise the build is garbage. No versatility

[Tom.5914]

They said berserker hits much harder so it has to be a glass canon.... They took away most of the damage, but of course it is still a glass noodle

[Vancho.8750]

I still dont get the get the headbutt thing after the big balance patch it self stuns and removes stability which increases the damage but it doesnt do damage in pvp so the fucking skill is double nerfed and on top of that is fucking hard to land. Then this patch comes around and they buff scourge for pvp and wvw while it was probably the most broken shit in existence like ever, but berserker gets shit on cause it was good for 2 seasons in HOT. Like what year did these people actually played the game for the last time. Remember when they removed the dodge from the druid staff, it was when the soulbeast bunker was popular. This patch was supposed to be big but what we got is changes meant for 4 years ago written in 30 minutes.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Yeah feels hopeless at times tbh. Why are they afraid to give warrior what it needs?

I legit wonder if I will live long enough in this world to see this class get some nice buffs.If you want an honest answer to this, its because in the first few years of the game when it was mostly about dungeons and the first iteration of Fractals, everyone always demanded heavies in their parties.

Back then there was only two heavy classes, Warrior and Guardian, and if you weren't one or the other you were often kicked, especially since many other classes were heavily dependant on condi and back then it didn't stack properly, or work on any objects, etc.

This resulted in the heavy zerker meta era and the devs had to spend alot of time putting more diversity into the other classes to ease them off of heavies, and clearly became burned out on it. Despite this, heavies are still highly prevalent in gameplay, especially Guardian & Revenant, and in competitive Warriors, Guardians and Revenants are still the main front-liners.

Yes, compared to the other two Warrior has suffered alot in PvE. But its not a case of not wanting to buff Warrior, its more that the devs don't know what to do about Guard and Rev to tone them down.

Just watch any YouTube video of GW2 from 2012-2015, most of them will be Warriors in Berserker gear.

EDIT: Some minor edits for clarity.

[Vancho.8750]

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Yeah feels hopeless at times tbh. Why are they afraid to give warrior what it needs?

I legit wonder if I will live long enough in this world to see this class get some nice buffs.If you want an honest answer to this, its because in the first few years of the game when it was mostly about dungeons and the first iteration of Fractals, everyone always demanded heavies in their parties.

Back then there was only two heavy classes, Warrior and Guardian, and if you weren't one or the other you were often kicked, especially since many other classes were heavily dependant on condi and back then it didn't stack properly, or work on any objects, etc.

This resulted in the heavy zerker meta era and the devs had to spend alot of time putting heavy diversity into the other classes to ease them off of heavies, and becaame burned out on it. Despite this, heavies are still highly prevalent in gameplay, especially Firebrand & Revenants, and in WvW Warriors, Guardians and Revenants are still the main front-liners.

Yes, compared to the other two Warrior has suffered alot in PvE. But its not a case of not wanting to buff Warrior, its more that the devs don't know what to do about Guard and Rev to tone them down.Other thing i noticed that allot of the good parts like weapon skills and traits are being put in elite specks of other classes, like currently you can have most of the warrior weapon kit on ranger with just their GS( GS on warrior + the shield) or the adrenal health + warrior sprint + might stacking passive on holo that is 3 traitlines for warrior to achieve what holo just comes with directly. Warrior loses its niche, why would you pick warrior when the other classes do the same thing and have more options tacked on.

[Lonecap.4105]

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Yeah feels hopeless at times tbh. Why are they afraid to give warrior what it needs?

I legit wonder if I will live long enough in this world to see this class get some nice buffs.If you want an honest answer to this, its because in the first few years of the game when it was mostly about dungeons and the first iteration of Fractals, everyone always demanded heavies in their parties.

Back then there was only two heavy classes, Warrior and Guardian, and if you weren't one or the other you were often kicked, especially since many other classes were heavily dependant on condi and back then it didn't stack properly, or work on any objects, etc.

This resulted in the heavy zerker meta era and the devs had to spend alot of time putting more diversity into the other classes to ease them off of heavies, and clearly became burned out on it. Despite this, heavies are still highly prevalent in gameplay, especially Guardian & Revenant, and in competitive Warriors, Guardians and Revenants are still the main front-liners.

Yes, compared to the other two Warrior has suffered alot in PvE. But its not a case of not wanting to buff Warrior, its more that the devs don't know what to do about Guard and Rev to tone them down.

Just watch any YouTube video of GW2 from 2012-2015, most of them will be Warriors in Berserker gear.

EDIT: Some minor edits for clarity.

I’m talking about PvP, where Warrior is currently bottom of the pile, and where it has many worthless skills and traits and many things which contribute to poor warrior performance.

One of the biggest changes they need to make, is so adrenal health and cleansing ire and any other on hit effects work on burst activating rather than on hit.

[Lighter.5631]

also all primal burst are trash specially for all the limitation berserker gets.they don't want to make primal burst so good that you just go in berserk and spam 1 skill and win. yet they refuse to give berserk more skills.but the class is designed to spam skill in berserk and they refuse to give any good sustain options because berserker is about offensive.

also they won't give berserker any utility because warrior don't deserve any utility.berserker would be highly viable if they just give a smoke field or teleport.

and they refuse to give berserk it's own skill bars, because that would look like reaper/holo(the two class thats more warrior like then warrior and more fun and smooth to play), maybe they should start giving berserker 3 weapon sets.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Lighter.5631 said:also all primal burst are trash specially for all the limitation berserker gets.they don't want to make primal burst so good that you just go in berserk and spam 1 skill and win. yet they refuse to give berserk more skills.but the class is designed to spam skill in berserk and they refuse to give any good sustain options because berserker is about offensive.

also they won't give berserker any utility because warrior don't deserve any utility.berserker would be highly viable if they just give a smoke field or teleport.

and they refuse to give berserk it's own skill bars, because that would look like reaper/holo(the two class thats more warrior like then warrior and more fun and smooth to play), maybe they should start giving berserker 3 weapon sets.

Smoldering Arrow is a better place for a smoke field.

[cryorion.9532]

Hey, at least spellbreaker will be able to outdps berserker in pve by removing boons /s

If you have serious and well thought ideas about Berserker (and balance overall), you can send them to CMC on discord. He said that on latest anet wvw stream. Maybe we can push through some interesting changes like with new Brave Stride :)

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@cryorion.9532 said:Hey, at least spellbreaker will be able to outdps berserker in pve by removing boons /s

If you have serious and well thought ideas about Berserker (and balance overall), you can send them to CMC on discord. He said that on latest anet wvw stream. Maybe we can push through some interesting changes like with new Brave Stride :)

Someone should parse through the warrior forum and collect all the great ideas we've had and send them to CMC then lol. Like the proposed Longbow rework thread, the proposed changes to Defense some people have had, adding confusion back in somehow with CCs, and things of that nature. OR perhaps CMC can come visit the Warrior forum at some point and solicit feedback.

[Rekt.5360]

@cryorion.9532 said:Hey, at least spellbreaker will be able to outdps berserker in pve by removing boons /s

If you have serious and well thought ideas about Berserker (and balance overall), you can send them to CMC on discord. He said that on latest anet wvw stream. Maybe we can push through some interesting changes like with new Brave Stride :)

Can you specify which discord in question that is, and how one can go about joining it? I am interested.

[cryorion.9532]

@Rekt.5360 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:Hey, at least spellbreaker will be able to outdps berserker in pve by removing boons /s

If you have serious and well thought ideas about Berserker (and balance overall), you can send them to CMC on discord. He said that on latest anet wvw stream. Maybe we can push through some interesting changes like with new Brave Stride :)

Can you specify which discord in question that is, and how one can go about joining it? I am interested.

There isn't specific server, just account. You will have to find it yourself though, there are some twitch streamers (e.g. Angeels, Roy) that know the account name and shouldn't be hard to get it if you really want.

[TeqkOneStylez.8047]

I would rather take back the ability to use normal burst skills while not in berserk. -300 can be cancelled out with eternal champion which is the best trait to go with anyways unless you're killing rabbits.

[Vancho.8750]

@"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:I would rather take back the ability to use normal burst skills while not in berserk. -300 can be cancelled out with eternal champion which is the best trait to go with anyways unless you're killing rabbits.Normal burst won't help, berserker can't handle any conditions and it can't handle being focused, the whole RP and idea of the unflinching unstoppable mad man is not executed properly. Put a skill or a trait that gives some way Berserker to deal with conditions and cc and will be a great difference, maybe something that cleanses it periodically or gaining resistance, so it falls in the this mad man is too angry to care about being slowed. And Arenanet tends to go the RP way allot when changes thing so why isn't there any source of fear on the berserker makes sense doesn't it.Also this passive https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burst_of_Aggression why not make it like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Onslaught and be pulsing or you gain superspeed and quickness after using burst skill.Pull the berserker in position of being a teamfighter and let the spellbreaker be control duelist give them a niche that is all.