Clyan.1593 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 This class in PvP is absurd. Can't fathom how broken it is compared to other builds. And it's been like this for a very long time.Just spams so much buffs on itself, has unbelievable dmg output, even gets shields and blocks and everything. Sustain equals out dmg with no efford. The range on holo sword is beyond reasonable too. And nades, what even are these dmg numbers.It's so obviously broken, tanky and strong at the same time, why is this not fixed since yesterday?Some people don't even bother with playing something diverse, just spam flamethrower 1 and running around. Then go into tiny form and troll on point.Seriously what is this rubbish balance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Kitsunee.4620 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 If you're wondering why Holo has never been gutted its because historically holo has always been the A to the meta's S+ boonbeast.That is to say that holo has always been the second best build or the third best build .Second nerfing holo is kinda hard. Since the point of holo is to have high melee cleave damage. Something engineer doesn't really have outside of holo.So nerfing it is to nerf its niche.Also holo has been nerfed 2 patches in a row now. You guys are just being silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Salazar.5430 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 yeh it's slowly geting balancedbut no holo aren't that much strong, scrapper right now is much stronger than holo, but pick rate of scrapper arent that hight yet, and most scrapper don't know how to build it to be strongif you don't belive me than prob you never got 2-3 shoted from stealth with Thunderclap+Granade barage+Sharpnel granade+Electo wirl if somone live yet all that on 11-18 might before even fight start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerer.2167 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 @White Kitsunee.4620 said:If you're wondering why Holo has never been gutted its because historically holo has always been the A to the meta's S+ boonbeast.That is to say that holo has always been the second best build or the third best build .Second nerfing holo is kinda hard. Since the point of holo is to have high melee cleave damage. Something engineer doesn't really have outside of holo.So nerfing it is to nerf its niche.Also holo has been nerfed 2 patches in a row now. You guys are just being silly.???This has to be a troll post LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonNee.5128 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 @White Kitsunee.4620 said:If you're wondering why Holo has never been gutted its because historically holo has always been the A to the meta's S+ boonbeast.That is to say that holo has always been the second best build or the third best build .Second nerfing holo is kinda hard. Since the point of holo is to have high melee cleave damage. Something engineer doesn't really have outside of holo.So nerfing it is to nerf its niche.Also holo has been nerfed 2 patches in a row now. You guys are just being silly.you mean the patch that shaved 0.1 off grenade barrage but gained knockback range buff on sh4?if might gain is nerfed you'll see some difference, but a 0.06 modified reduction on shrapnel is a joke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 @"White Kitsunee.4620" said:If you're wondering why Holo has never been gutted its because historically holo has always been the A to the meta's S+ boonbeast.That is to say that holo has always been the second best build or the third best build .Second nerfing holo is kinda hard. Since the point of holo is to have high melee cleave damage. Something engineer doesn't really have outside of holo.So nerfing it is to nerf its niche.Also holo has been nerfed 2 patches in a row now. You guys are just being silly.Dude that's actually pretty inaccurate.Boonbeast was only good for quite seriously "a season or two" and it that was a side node thing. After they gutted Boonbeast, which didn't take long, Soulbeasts had to start running full DPS builds. Ranger went for literally "years" without having any build that was solid enough to compete seriously for top 50 slots or to be used in any serious MAT team. Then we had a short season or two of Core Ranger play, which was recent. And that build was good enough to dominate side node play and be considered for use in top tier play. But even then, half the community claimed that Holosmith was every bit the equal to a Core Ranger on a side node.So we're talking maybe 4 seasons out of them all to this day, was Ranger ever a top 3 meta.Holosmith on the other hand, has experienced many elongated phases where it was allowed to run amuck with these ridiculously powerful builds that often made most players consider it to be the strongest yolo class for sure, and inarguably incredibly broken. Holo can also play every role. It's never pigeonholed into just being a side node or only a team fight. Nah, Holo is great at Team Fight, Side Node, +ing, and even functions as a half support with water field blasting & team stealthing.Holo is loaded, it's always been loaded, and it needs some strong nerfs, real nerfs. They can go ahead and put Photon Forge from a 5s CD to a 9s CD. That'd be a great start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 @DonNee.5128 said:@White Kitsunee.4620 said:If you're wondering why Holo has never been gutted its because historically holo has always been the A to the meta's S+ boonbeast.That is to say that holo has always been the second best build or the third best build .Second nerfing holo is kinda hard. Since the point of holo is to have high melee cleave damage. Something engineer doesn't really have outside of holo.So nerfing it is to nerf its niche.Also holo has been nerfed 2 patches in a row now. You guys are just being silly.you mean the patch that shaved 0.1 off grenade barrage but gained knockback range buff on sh4?if might gain is nerfed you'll see some difference, but a 0.06 modified reduction on shrapnel is a jokeThat nerf to grenade barrage was a 20% damage nerf, dude.Nice try making it look minor by just pointing out the power coefficient decrease of a single grenade of the barrage. But the total reduction was 0,6 power coefficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonNee.5128 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 @Kodama.6453 said:@DonNee.5128 said:@"White Kitsunee.4620" said:If you're wondering why Holo has never been gutted its because historically holo has always been the A to the meta's S+ boonbeast.That is to say that holo has always been the second best build or the third best build .Second nerfing holo is kinda hard. Since the point of holo is to have high melee cleave damage. Something engineer doesn't really have outside of holo.So nerfing it is to nerf its niche.Also holo has been nerfed 2 patches in a row now. You guys are just being silly.you mean the patch that shaved 0.1 off grenade barrage but gained knockback range buff on sh4?if might gain is nerfed you'll see some difference, but a 0.06 modified reduction on shrapnel is a jokeThat nerf to grenade barrage was a 20% damage nerf, dude.Nice try making it look minor by just pointing out the power coefficient decrease of a single grenade of the barrage. But the total reduction was 0,6 power coefficient.which obviously isn't a lot, lol!you're looking at having easy 15+ might and 15+ vulv without even trying, that's a flat 32% dmg increase for ALL skills (it's actually easy to get 25 might and conoro burst hits 18 vulv alone)did i also forget to mention the huge "nerf" to shield 5 in the same "nerf" patch, which gained 0,5 sec block? 20% bLoCk BuFf, dUdE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Kitsunee.4620 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@White Kitsunee.4620 said:Boonbeast was only good for quite seriously "a season or two" and it that was a side node thing. After they gutted Boonbeast, which didn't take long, Soulbeasts had to start running full DPS builds. Ranger went for literally "years" without having any build that was solid enough to compete seriously for top 50 slots or to be used in any serious MAT team. Then we had a short season or two of Core Ranger play, which was recent. And that build was good enough to dominate side node play and be considered for use in top tier play. But even then, half the community claimed that Holosmith was every bit the equal to a Core Ranger on a side node.I was just using boonbeast as an example >.>@White Kitsunee.4620 said:That is to say that holo has always been the second best build or the third best build .This is what I meant. Holo always played second fiddle to boonbeast, mirage, shatter mesmer, ect.Whatever the fotm S+ spec was holo was always behind it. Which is why It was never gutted like mesmer or scourge got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Photon forge being 9s CD would be unbearable. All that needs to happens is explosive entrance needs to be hard nerfed and enhanced capacity storage unit should give less might. Holo is only an issue because it can randomly 1 shot you still, due to might stacking and explosive entrance on top of all it's kitchen sink utility it has. The core part of the spec isn't imbalanced. However, without this burst holo will probably be as unviable as DPS tempest/weavers due to power rev and any thief spec insta deleting you from the game and making you unable to contribute as you spam kite and play jump puzzles all game trying desperately to survive. That's more of a power rev and thief being obscenely broken thing, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyan.1593 Posted August 2, 2020 Author Share Posted August 2, 2020 There is zero point in defending the state of Engi. Even a 20 percent nerf doesnt help, thats how broken it is.Fact is spamming flame 1 works, you can literally down an enemy and stand there spamming it. If someone tries to revive that guy, you just get behind him and spam flame 1. You will kill both. That's how rediculous flamethrower is.Engi has to be looked at and nerfed substentially. And the nerf has to hit hard so you guys finally learn how invest some skill into playing it. Spaming a single skill has to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 @Clyan.1593 said:There is zero point in defending the state of Engi. Even a 20 percent nerf doesnt help, thats how broken it is.Fact is spamming flame 1 works, you can literally down an enemy and stand there spamming it. If someone tries to revive that guy, you just get behind him and spam flame 1. You will kill both. That's how rediculous flamethrower is.Engi has to be looked at and nerfed substentially. And the nerf has to hit hard so you guys finally learn how invest some skill into playing it. Spaming a single skill has to go. I mean, flamethrower scrapper finally has become kinda viable (pretty sure it still isn't in high tier PvP, tho).Scrapper got several traits to ensure the synergy with that kit and also we can finally really utilise the juggernaut grandmaster trait, since camping flamethrower is not such a big no go anymore.I can agree that the damage could get toned down a bit, but I would like to still preserve flamethrower scrapper viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyan.1593 Posted August 2, 2020 Author Share Posted August 2, 2020 @Kodama.6453 said:@Clyan.1593 said:There is zero point in defending the state of Engi. Even a 20 percent nerf doesnt help, thats how broken it is.Fact is spamming flame 1 works, you can literally down an enemy and stand there spamming it. If someone tries to revive that guy, you just get behind him and spam flame 1. You will kill both. That's how rediculous flamethrower is.Engi has to be looked at and nerfed substentially. And the nerf has to hit hard so you guys finally learn how invest some skill into playing it. Spaming a single skill has to go. I mean, flamethrower scrapper finally has become kinda viable (pretty sure it still isn't in high tier PvP, tho).Scrapper got several traits to ensure the synergy with that kit and also we can finally really utilise the juggernaut grandmaster trait, since camping flamethrower is not such a big no go anymore.I can agree that the damage could get toned down a bit, but I would like to still preserve flamethrower scrapper viable.Its broken, not viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 @Clyan.1593 said:@Kodama.6453 said:@Clyan.1593 said:There is zero point in defending the state of Engi. Even a 20 percent nerf doesnt help, thats how broken it is.Fact is spamming flame 1 works, you can literally down an enemy and stand there spamming it. If someone tries to revive that guy, you just get behind him and spam flame 1. You will kill both. That's how rediculous flamethrower is.Engi has to be looked at and nerfed substentially. And the nerf has to hit hard so you guys finally learn how invest some skill into playing it. Spaming a single skill has to go. I mean, flamethrower scrapper finally has become kinda viable (pretty sure it still isn't in high tier PvP, tho).Scrapper got several traits to ensure the synergy with that kit and also we can finally really utilise the juggernaut grandmaster trait, since camping flamethrower is not such a big no go anymore.I can agree that the damage could get toned down a bit, but I would like to still preserve flamethrower scrapper viable.Its broken, not viable. Maybe they could shift around some damage?For example, reduce the power coefficient of the auto attack and give flame blast (skill 2) some of the power coefficient back?This would require the engineer to hit a skillshot to regain some of their damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bingus.4236 Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 @Clyan.1593 said:There is zero point in defending the state of Engi. Even a 20 percent nerf doesnt help, thats how broken it is.Fact is spamming flame 1 works, you can literally down an enemy and stand there spamming it. If someone tries to revive that guy, you just get behind him and spam flame 1. You will kill both. That's how rediculous flamethrower is.Engi has to be looked at and nerfed substentially. And the nerf has to hit hard so you guys finally learn how invest some skill into playing it. Spaming a single skill has to go. Why would someone try to revive an ally that was getting attacked by another player? Also, I wouldn't stand there flaming a downed player if there was another enemy about, I'd use the function gyro or the flame wall instead and then carry on fighting. I often get highest damage stat on my team but I have to supplement flamethrower with scrapper actions to get it. Certainly can't get it by spamming 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choovanski.5462 Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 the forum is obsessed with asking for anet to nerf the wrong things (like nades) and never actually campaigns to get things like the free heals, might and boons nerfed in holoso if you're gonna blame anyone, blame those who made 'nerf nades' threads because they were unable to actually understand what makes holo strong (clue it's holo skills and traits, not core lol).so thanks to them, we got minor nerfs to nade kit itself, and holo and all the free damage and sustain it brings was left untouched. if instead the free might gain was what people complained about, holo might have got effective nerfs. but nope. people are just too short sighted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 What I don't understand is 4 elixir procs in alchemy spec. I thought that warr was very reliant on its stance procs, but engi swims in free boons and sustain by just being in combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasss.1208 Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 @choovanski.5462 said:the forum is obsessed with asking for anet to nerf the wrong things (like nades) and never actually campaigns to get things like the free heals, might and boons nerfed in holoso if you're gonna blame anyone, blame those who made 'nerf nades' threads because they were unable to actually understand what makes holo strong (clue it's holo skills and traits, not core lol).so thanks to them, we got minor nerfs to nade kit itself, and holo and all the free damage and sustain it brings was left untouched. if instead the free might gain was what people complained about, holo might have got effective nerfs. but nope. people are just too short sightedThe best part is, there are already multiple new topics, asking for yet again more core engi nerfs. I really wish people who ask for nerfs would first try to understand and play the spec. One don't have to be a rocket scientist to notice that something isn't right, but they could let those point out the problems, that actually know how the prof. works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 @steki.1478 said:What I don't understand is 4 elixir procs in alchemy spec. I thought that warr was very reliant on its stance procs, but engi swims in free boons and sustain by just being in combat. Where do you get the number 4 from?Lesser elixir b, lesser elixir c, elixir e.... that's 3 elixir procs in alchemy. What's the 4th? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyan.1593 Posted August 3, 2020 Author Share Posted August 3, 2020 @Bingus.4236 said:@Clyan.1593 said:There is zero point in defending the state of Engi. Even a 20 percent nerf doesnt help, thats how broken it is.Fact is spamming flame 1 works, you can literally down an enemy and stand there spamming it. If someone tries to revive that guy, you just get behind him and spam flame 1. You will kill both. That's how rediculous flamethrower is.Engi has to be looked at and nerfed substentially. And the nerf has to hit hard so you guys finally learn how invest some skill into playing it. Spaming a single skill has to go. Why would someone try to revive an ally that was getting attacked by another player? Also, I wouldn't stand there flaming a downed player if there was another enemy about, I'd use the function gyro or the flame wall instead and then carry on fighting. I often get highest damage stat on my team but I have to supplement flamethrower with scrapper actions to get it. Certainly can't get it by spamming 1.Just that spamming a single skill doesnt usually work when someone is reviving. You miss the whole point going in full defense of a very obviously broken build.Also I dont care about stats, that's not the issue here, another one where you clearly try to derange the thopic into a defensive stance on behalf of engis.Engi is far too strong, the whole pvp section knows, except of course some people who accidently enjoy playing this prof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny.7260 Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 "Why don't they fix Engineer?" Because everyone is biased and it's hard to tell if someone is just complaining because it counters them/serves a strong role or if it's just that incredibly busted. I think the main issue right now is that Flashbang just gives an easy blind/daze without sacrificing any damage. Just low the damage significantly when traiting for Flashbang. Easy. 'But wait, X this and Y that.' Woo-wee. PvP is fun. :tongue: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 @Clyan.1593 said:There is zero point in defending the state of Engi. Even a 20 percent nerf doesnt help, thats how broken it is.Fact is spamming flame 1 works, you can literally down an enemy and stand there spamming it. If someone tries to revive that guy, you just get behind him and spam flame 1. You will kill both. That's how rediculous flamethrower is.Engi has to be looked at and nerfed substentially. And the nerf has to hit hard so you guys finally learn how invest some skill into playing it. Spaming a single skill has to go. It dies instantly when focused, though. It's just super unfun to fight as a lot of builds and shouldn't have passive staiblity when stability is so rare now.@steki.1478 said:What I don't understand is 4 elixir procs in alchemy spec. I thought that warr was very reliant on its stance procs, but engi swims in free boons and sustain by just being in combat. It's not really just the alchemy tree, it's because they run elixir H and that + toss elixir is a ton of different boons at all times. Combine that with elixir U + alchemy tree and it seems holo just runs around with infinite boons at all times. It doesn't actually, the only boon that's an issue is the high stacks of might.Alchemy tratline is silly, though. A pure passive non-interactive trait line like alchemy is pretty boring. The only good traits are HGH and purity of purpose because you have to press buttons to interact with them, the othet ones all need to be completely revamped imo.It doesn't help that inventions is really weird and not helpful most of the time unless you run very specific traits and weapons(shield and scrapper, mainly) and tools is very very underwhelming outside of it's grandmaster traits and CDR on toolbelt skills. Firearms is a great tree for condi, but not so much for power. I'd say it's pretty BAD for power and alchemy ends up being better offensively AND defensively for power. This is why holo ends up taking alchemy.Explosives have the same issue, where it's not only better defensively, but also offensively than tools and inventions. It makes no sense.They need to buff inventions and tools to be competitive with alchemy and rework alchemy entirely outside of HGH and PoP, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"White Kitsunee.4620" said:If you're wondering why Holo has never been gutted its because historically holo has always been the A to the meta's S+ boonbeast.That is to say that holo has always been the second best build or the third best build .Second nerfing holo is kinda hard. Since the point of holo is to have high melee cleave damage. Something engineer doesn't really have outside of holo.So nerfing it is to nerf its niche.Also holo has been nerfed 2 patches in a row now. You guys are just being silly.Dude that's actually pretty inaccurate.Boonbeast was only good for quite seriously "a season or two" and it that was a side node thing. After they gutted Boonbeast, which didn't take long, Soulbeasts had to start running full DPS builds. Ranger went for literally "years" without having any build that was solid enough to compete seriously for top 50 slots or to be used in any serious MAT team. Then we had a short season or two of Core Ranger play, which was recentThere was actually a soulbeast who played it right when it came out with a unique dps build that hit rank 1 briefly and later secured a rank 3 title with it. Imo some of the thing in soulbeast were always real diamonds- like fresh reinforcement at least with 2 pets was one of the most insane things I’ve seen in gw2. Sadly these things to nerf on ranger stick out like sore thumbs so it gets nerfed to oblivion when they realize it. Meanwhile engi is constantly either meta or in sleeper mode for meta, which was been true for core ranger now and I’m not sure what they could nerf on ranger so maybe the tables have turned, though I doubt it or at least in severity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 @Shiyo.3578 said:It dies instantly when focused, though. It's just super unfun to fight as a lot of builds and shouldn't have passive staiblity when stability is so rare now.The question is: what do you want to replace the stability with?Juggernaut has been around since the release of the game and it always provided permanent stability while using the flamethrower.The other side effects changed, like it used to give 200 toughness, but was also reducing your movement speed by 50%. Now it gives might and increases might duration.But the stability has always been an integral part of the identity of the flamethrower, it just happened that almost the entire existence of this game this couldn't really get utilised, since camping flamethrower was just terrible.And if you want to replace the stability, then we also would need yet another rework of scrapper. You can't tell me that mass momentum, object in motion and applied force haven't been designed with flamethrower in mind. The synergy with the juggernaut trait is just way too good to not be intentional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anjo.6143 Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 I made a holo and Im playing like holo nades, it is WAY OP, so much broken, just like rev.3 sets of weapon, tank, short cd heal, high damage, high speed, stealth, tornado op, it is just crazy, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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