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Asgeir, Braham, and the future of the Icebrood Saga story


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So I noticed something interesting going back, and rereading, Asgeir's journal "A Burden", and how it possibly relates to the Icebrood Saga story, and Braham.

If we read "A Burden", and look at the other lore behind Asgeir's fight with Jormag, Asgeir lost to Jormag because

  1. He allowed Jormag to make him doubt his actions
  2. His hunting party was killed, leaving him to fight Jormag alone, and thus be alone to be manipulated by Jormag
  3. He lacked the physical and mental strength to keep fighting
  4. Arguably, he made the mistake of fighting Jormag too head on, allowing all of the above to happe

When it comes to Braham, we have already been told by the Spirits of the Wild that Braham is now part of a prophecy, and that either Braham must kill Jormag, or Jormag will kill him. Braham has also mimicked several of Asgeir's actions, both by getting a weapon infused with Jotun fire magic, as Asgeir had, and by getting the Spirits of the Wild to channel their energies through him to slay one of Jormag's champions(Drakkar) as Asgeir did Frostfang.Looking back on episodes 1 and 2

  1. In Episode 1 we got to interact with Raven, and take Raven's trials. During these trials the Commander comments they are unsure if the decision they made was correct, we began to doubt our choices. However, Jhavi reminds us that Raven teaches there are no right answers to any situation.
  2. In Episode 2 we got to interact with Wolf. Wolf made the Commander and Braham work together to get the Lost Spirit's powers, and pushed Braham to consider his "party". This allowed Braham to turn into the Wolf at the end, when the Commander's life was threaten by Bangar.

I suspect that in episode 5 and 6 we will meet with Bear and Snow Leopard. Bear will make us do something that requires us to keep pushing through the pain and exhaustion to keep fighting, and Snow Leopard will have us do something that encourages us to use non-direct tactics against Jormag, as fits with those two spirits ascribed elements.

Essentially, the Spirits are teaching the Commander and Braham how not to fail in the inevitable fight against Jormag as Asgeir did. Getting the bow back, and Braham being able to channel the Spirit's powers, will be key in defeating Jormag, as well as the lessons learned here.

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:So I noticed something interesting going back, and rereading, Asgeir's journal "A Burden", and how it possibly relates to the Icebrood Saga story, and Braham.

If we read "A Burden", and look at the other lore behind Asgeir's fight with Jormag, Asgeir lost to Jormag because

  1. He allowed Jormag to make him doubt his actions
  2. His hunting party was killed, leaving him to fight Jormag alone, and thus be alone to be manipulated by Jormag
  3. He lacked the physical and mental strength to keep fighting
  4. Arguably, he made the mistake of fighting Jormag too head on, allowing all of the above to happe

When it comes to Braham, we have already been told by the Spirits of the Wild that Braham is now part of a prophecy, and that either Braham must kill Jormag, or Jormag will kill him. Braham has also mimicked several of Asgeir's actions, both by getting a weapon infused with Jotun fire magic, as Asgeir had, and by getting the Spirits of the Wild to channel their energies through him to slay one of Jormag's champions(Drakkar) as Asgeir did Frostfang.Looking back on episodes 1 and 2

  1. In Episode 1 we got to interact with Raven, and take Raven's trials. During these trials the Commander comments they are unsure if the decision they made was correct, we began to doubt our choices. However, Jhavi reminds us that Raven teaches there are no right answers to any situation.
  2. In Episode 2 we got to interact with Wolf. Wolf made the Commander and Braham work together to get the Lost Spirit's powers, and pushed Braham to consider his "party". This allowed Braham to turn into the Wolf at the end, when the Commander's life was threaten by Bangar.

I suspect that in episode 5 and 6 we will meet with Bear and Snow Leopard. Bear will make us do something that requires us to keep pushing through the pain and exhaustion to keep fighting, and Snow Leopard will have us do something that encourages us to use non-direct tactics against Jormag, as fits with those two spirits ascribed elements.

Essentially, the Spirits are teaching the Commander and Braham how not to fail in the inevitable fight against Jormag as Asgeir did. Getting the bow back, and Braham being able to channel the Spirit's powers, will be key in defeating Jormag, as well as the lessons learned here.

I do wonder if it's all a little too clear-cut to be correct. But you've made some good observations that've got me considering.

Look, I think that the business of Braham and Jormag needs to be put on hold. We've got the DSD to contend with and, in my opinion, there are very few armies capable of withstanding an assault from aquatic spellcasters. Jormag has managed to amass a diverse range of fighters, primarily norn and charr, arguably the most competent warriors of the Pact.

All of this makes me contemplate the ultimate fate of Aesgir. I believe that, with time, Aesgir came to realize that Jormag really does intend to preserve the norn race, not by corrupting them either. Sure, many norn have been corrupted, but not all of them. Furthermore, Aesgir concluded that some of his own people must be conscripted in order to save all of his people. What do I think happened to Aesgir? He became the Fraenir, willingly sacrificing himself to save his people.

In light of Aesgir's possible fate, I am prepared to question everything that we have experienced in the IBS thus far.

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@Stephen.6312 said:

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:So I noticed something interesting going back, and rereading, Asgeir's journal "A Burden", and how it possibly relates to the Icebrood Saga story, and Braham.

If we read "A Burden", and look at the other lore behind Asgeir's fight with Jormag, Asgeir lost to Jormag because
  1. He allowed Jormag to make him doubt his actions
  2. His hunting party was killed, leaving him to fight Jormag alone, and thus be alone to be manipulated by Jormag
  3. He lacked the physical and mental strength to keep fighting
  4. Arguably, he made the mistake of fighting Jormag too head on, allowing all of the above to happe

When it comes to Braham, we have already been told by the Spirits of the Wild that Braham is now part of a prophecy, and that either Braham must kill Jormag, or Jormag will kill him. Braham has also mimicked several of Asgeir's actions, both by getting a weapon infused with Jotun fire magic, as Asgeir had, and by getting the Spirits of the Wild to channel their energies through him to slay one of Jormag's champions(Drakkar) as Asgeir did Frostfang.Looking back on episodes 1 and 2
  1. In Episode 1 we got to interact with Raven, and take Raven's trials. During these trials the Commander comments they are unsure if the decision they made was correct, we began to doubt our choices. However, Jhavi reminds us that Raven teaches there are no right answers to any situation.
  2. In Episode 2 we got to interact with Wolf. Wolf made the Commander and Braham work together to get the Lost Spirit's powers, and pushed Braham to consider his "party". This allowed Braham to turn into the Wolf at the end, when the Commander's life was threaten by Bangar.

I suspect that in episode 5 and 6 we will meet with Bear and Snow Leopard. Bear will make us do something that requires us to keep pushing through the pain and exhaustion to keep fighting, and Snow Leopard will have us do something that encourages us to use non-direct tactics against Jormag, as fits with those two spirits ascribed elements.

Essentially, the Spirits are teaching the Commander and Braham how not to fail in the inevitable fight against Jormag as Asgeir did. Getting the bow back, and Braham being able to channel the Spirit's powers, will be key in defeating Jormag, as well as the lessons learned here.

I do wonder if it's all a little too clear-cut to be correct. But you've made some good observations that've got me considering.

Look, I think that the business of Braham and Jormag needs to be put on hold. We've got the DSD to contend with and, in my opinion, there are very few armies capable of withstanding an assault from aquatic spellcasters. Jormag has managed to amass a diverse range of fighters, primarily norn and charr, arguably the most competent warriors of the Pact.

All of this makes me contemplate the ultimate fate of Aesgir. I believe that, with time, Aesgir came to realize that Jormag really does intend to preserve the norn race, not by corrupting them either. Sure, many norn have been corrupted, but not all of them. Furthermore, Aesgir concluded that some of his own people must be conscripted in order to save all of his people. What do I think happened to Aesgir? He became the Fraenir, willingly sacrificing himself to save his people.

In light of Aesgir's possible fate, I am prepared to question everything that we have experienced in the IBS thus far.

I mean its either him or svanir for the next revenant legend, so I actually think we might find out from the horses mouth what happened. Id actually really like if he did become the fraenir but at the same time I kind of hope he is STILL alive if he has given himself to jormag; Perhaps like Svanir 2.0 and we get to meet him. But he is one of the few Icebrood we meet who does not wish to fight, and meets with us in confidence with the spirits watching. We then get a cinematic where he describes what happened and why; And we see him give himself to the dragon to spare us.

We then find out that the Sons of Svanir have been at war, with themselves and now the charr as none of jormags minions truly leave their free will unless made that way like bangar. Asgeir warns us that fighting Jormag is wrong and we get to ask him why, he then states jormags intentions as he himself believes them to be and tells us that Jormag isn't in this for what the typical dragon would be? I actually... kinda hope they redeem jormag... and that Jormag while warped and misguided in its attempts truly means well, in its own odd way where Aurene can step up and basically confront Jormag.. The two have an exchange where Aurene challenges Jormags mind-set and offers to "help" in showing Jormag the way to really get some work done. Then the two depart or well they leave us, as Aurene and Jormag enter the mists more than likely to repair the damage Kralk had done and continue to talk. Jormag teaching Aurene her heirtage and telling her of what the previous cycles were like, and Aurene showing Jormag how to become more than it currently is. Thus giving it purpose, and understanding it otherwise would of lacked~

It would be nice to NOT kill the dragon for once. And Jormag is honestly the most mysterious of the what we have left outside of bubbles, I think it would be neat to set up a pantheon of dragons... perhaps Jormag and Aurene even find a way to replace the dragons we've felled with a better canidate/solution? Time will tell.

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@"Stephen.6312" said:Look, I think that the business of Braham and Jormag needs to be put on hold. We've got the DSD to contend with and, in my opinion, there are very few armies capable of withstanding an assault from aquatic spellcasters. Jormag has managed to amass a diverse range of fighters, primarily norn and charr, arguably the most competent warriors of the Pact.I don't see why the DSD's armies would be any more or less competent/powerful then any of the other dragon's armies. Even if it was, I don't see why we would make the proverbial deal with the devil to try to stop it instead of doing what we have done with any of the other dragon's armies, which is make new allies, and develop new technology, and tactics, to defeat it. We have an entire continent of possible new allies in Cantha.

All of this makes me contemplate the ultimate fate of Aesgir. I believe that, with time, Aesgir came to realize that Jormag really does intend to preserve the norn race, not by corrupting them either. Sure, many norn have been corrupted, but not all of them. Furthermore, Aesgir concluded that some of his own people must be conscripted in order to save all of his people. What do I think happened to Aesgir? He became the Fraenir, willingly sacrificing himself to save his people.If anything, "A Burden" suggests the opposite. The last lines are even"I'm doing the right thing. I'm giving the norn a future. Why does it feel as though I gave up? As though I could've won, if only I'd pushed through the pain and exhaustion?The voice spoke true. I'll carry this burden for as long as I live. I only hope whoever takes it up when I'm gone can handle the weight of it. "Showing Asgeir believed he did the wrong thing by listening to Jormag.

Besides, what has Jormag done to suggest its being honest?

  • It lied to Asgier about leaving the Norn alone if they went south
  • It manipulated Bangar into starting a massively devastating civil war among the Charr, which also led to the genocide of the Drizzlewood communities
  • It used its "Voice" to manipulate the soldiers of Jora's Keep into killing each other
  • It also used its "Voice" to manipulate the Kodan, and Vigil Relief soldiers, into walking out into the snow and ice to lay down and die
  • Its mentally attacked Marjory, by using her dead sisters voice
  • Its lied/misled Bangar, its own pawn, into thinking it would make him its champion, when, in reality, it made him a slave in the form of its new "Voice"
  • Its tired multiple times to break down, and turn our allies against us, be it Braham, Rytlock, or Crecia
  • It continues to feed off of the power of the Spirits of the Wild, even though they are clearly against it

Jormag's claims of wanting to help are no different then the claims made by Zhaitan's minions that Zhaitan simply wants to help everyone avoid the pain of death and loss.... by forcibly making everyone undead Risen. And Jormag has done thing but use similar tactics. Remember, as it itself has said "ice forties, ice protects", its idea of "helping" is almost certainly something devastating like freezing the whole world into ice to stop the cycle or something ridiculous like that. And even Aurene calls out Jormag's actions in the latest "Confer with Bangar" achievement step.

Also, the Fraenir is stated to be a Son of Svanir that was chosen by Jormag for the position, so its not Asgeir.

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Why is everyone assuming that Jormag is good? Nothing he has done has been good. He has tried to drive our allies crazy and sucidal. He helped manipulate the char into a civil war while using them to help him reawaken. He has broken his promises and still sent his forces against us. He's not going to side with us. Its roar caused a four year long blizzard, destroying koden sanctuaries and is using the spirts of the wild as a battery.

Tell me how any of this is good for us or Tyria?

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:If we read "A Burden" [...]

I've read a burden, yes. I... have a copy of it in a shared inventory slot. What of it??

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Asgeir lost to Jormag because

  1. He allowed Jormag to make him doubt his actions
  2. His hunting party was killed, leaving him to fight Jormag alone, and thus be alone to be manipulated by Jormag
  3. He lacked the physical and mental strength to keep fighting
  4. Arguably, he made the mistake of fighting Jormag too head on, allowing all of the above to happe

What a peculiar presumption, a perplexing perspective... It might be due to being a highly-sensitive person, an empath, but I've never really been given to calling compassion a sign of weakness. I do see that rather toxic ideology bandied around a lot, yes, but I don't prescribe to it myself. If one listens, one is weak; If one is kind, one is weak; If one dares deviate from the utter and immediate oblitteration of that which is unlike them, one is weak. I'm not a fan.

Asgeir didn't "lose" as that wasn't the situation. Asgeir listened, Asgeir had a little think about it, and Asgeir learned. I wish that real people were as reflective as fictive characters. To my mind, it takes more bravery to show compassion and to dare to let an assumed foe live in the attempt to foster respect and choose the teething troubles of co-existence. A murder is a very final, absolute thing after all. The murder of another in a setting like this without commonplace surveillance and well-established law is something that one can walk away from and never really look back. It's much more of an effort to try and live with those who're dissimilar than merely eradicate them.

Asgeir had the wherewithal to realise that his erstwhile foe was not so much a foe indeed, simply... different. One who had been met with hostility for little more than being a powerful creature that would've provided any norn with the might to slay them a legend. Such a chance is ambrosia to a nord so it means little whether diplomacy could be achieved. Asgeir saw that, in a way, Jormag was as much a victim of norn ambition as they were of the dragon's drive to survive. There was the possibility to talk it out, if only they'd listen. Would they? Probably not, but maybe they should?

Jormag's been in a position where they've had to defend themself against anyone seeking a legend; not just themself either, but their branded charges, their children... I think that the address to Bangar—The Icebrood Saga trailer—was Jormag openly admitting their own vulnerability as much as anything else. What startled me was the meta-event in Drizzlewood involving the Claw of Jormag. He didn't exactly look like the most intimidating of fiends, did he? Cowering behind a column of ice in much the same way a bear might hide behind a tree from an ordery Elmer Fudd. I wouldn't call that a display of strength. If anything, it looked like the poor little baim was terrified. I mean, his mother was asleep and he didn't fancy his chances. Regardless, he was there to try to defend his sire, his parent. Awful business, that. I'm glad I didn't do it.

It's not like the situation changed when the aforementioned pillar was destroyed, either; he just up and left, or tried to. Got shot out of the sky, of course, and ended up having what looked like a panic attack before keeling over. I'm really glad I didn't play any part in that. I passed that particular test of empathy. I'm not doing that to the poor bae.

The point is is that Jormag is a persuasive, diplomatic dragon though they're hardly the strongest. It's going to be difficult for them to look out for their children, and even themself. Their best hope is that their capacity for persuasion leads to an amicable conclusion sans bloodshed. Of course, there are those who'd claim that Jormag needn't fear if they can control minds. They can't, of course, is the truth. I'd point out how Dragon's Watch routinely resisted their power, though knowing that isn't enough I'd also cite Tom Abernathy's own words on the matter. He has said many a time—until he's blue in the face—that Jormag's powers can't manifest that way. From what I gather, it's more like a convincing argument.

If one is as powerful as Kralkatorrik one might not fear. If one has suffered as much as Kralkatorrik has, on emight indeed welcome death rather than fear it. If a dragon happened to eat a lich so that they can't really die in the first place, they needn't really fear death either! However, Jormag has much to live for coupled with no such invulnerability, so I'd posit they do fear death. I think there's much to be learned of Jormag's true nature in the coming months. Dissimilarity from one's self or one's own isn't a great foundation for distrust and paranoia, our world has been—and continues to be—a mess thanks to that manner of tribalistic thinking. It should be outdated and outmoded by this point.

When it comes to Braham, we have already been told by the Spirits of the Wild that Braham is now part of a prophecy, and that either Braham must kill Jormag, or Jormag will kill him.

Absolute obedience to figures of authority? I'm not a fan of that, either. I'd wager that an encounter between Braham and Asgeir is on the cards and that the old norn—whom, as is my understand, is a norn's norn—will have many things to say to Braham about such foolishness. The cub needs a good chewing out. Blind obedience is never a good trait, if it's a trait truly valued by those spirits then the norn are, quite frankly, better off without them. I'd consider that more than a mere foible, legends are nothing more than simple stories encapsulated in toxic masculinity anyway. Just as the charr must inevitably move with the times and leave behind their toxic elements, the norn must too leave behind legends.

The Icebrood Saga, I feel, is a story about learning and growth. Both norn and charr alike will be irrevokably changed by it, all for the better if you ask me.

Braham has also mimicked several of Asgeir's actions, both by getting a weapon infused with Jotun fire magic, as Asgeir had, and by getting the Spirits of the Wild to channel their energies through him to slay one of Jormag's champions(Drakkar) as Asgeir did Frostfang.

The question is, must history repeat itself? Should it? Can there be a divergent path? Life has paths that twist and turn and one can find themself back at a familiar place and faced with troubles similar to those they used to know, but it's a sad day when one can't learn from the past and use those experiences to traverse these tribulations and forge a better path forward. One less stricken with strife. Indeed, just because history is shaping up to repeat itself, it doesn't mean it will play out the same.

Essentially, the Spirits are teaching the Commander and Braham how not to fail in the inevitable fight against Jormag as Asgeir did. Getting the bow back, and Braham being able to channel the Spirit's powers, will be key in defeating Jormag, as well as the lessons learned here.

You assume the true foe here is Jormag. Your fear and focus is misplaced. I'll say that much, because it's fun to say that! It's certainly true, though. It's easy to look at something and fear it because it's different despite it being as much a victim of this selfish past as anyone, without ever noticing the one behind the curtain, pulling the strings for the patsies to dance to.

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@Hypnowulf.7403 said:

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:If we read "A Burden" [...]

I've read a burden, yes. I... have a copy of it in a shared inventory slot. What of it??

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Asgeir lost to Jormag because
  1. He allowed Jormag to make him doubt his actions
  2. His hunting party was killed, leaving him to fight Jormag alone, and thus be alone to be manipulated by Jormag
  3. He lacked the physical and mental strength to keep fighting
  4. Arguably, he made the mistake of fighting Jormag too head on, allowing all of the above to happe

What a peculiar presumption, a perplexing perspective... It might be due to being a highly-sensitive person, an empath, but I've never really been given to calling compassion a sign of weakness. I do see that rather toxic ideology bandied around a lot, yes, but I don't prescribe to it myself. If one listens, one is weak; If one is kind, one is weak; If one dares deviate from the utter and immediate oblitteration of that which is unlike them, one is weak. I'm not a fan.

Asgeir didn't "lose" as that wasn't the situation. Asgeir listened, Asgeir had a little think about it, and Asgeir
learned
. I wish that real people were as reflective as fictive characters. To my mind, it takes more bravery to show compassion and to dare to let an assumed foe live in the attempt to foster respect and choose the teething troubles of co-existence. A murder is a very final, absolute thing after all. The murder of another in a setting like this without commonplace surveillance and well-established law is something that one can walk away from and never really look back. It's much more of an effort to try and live with those who're dissimilar than merely eradicate them.

Asgeir had the wherewithal to realise that his erstwhile foe was not so much a foe indeed, simply... different. One who had been met with hostility for little more than being a powerful creature that would've provided any norn with the might to slay them a legend. Such a chance is ambrosia to a nord so it means little whether diplomacy could be achieved. Asgeir saw that, in a way, Jormag was as much a victim of norn ambition as they were of the dragon's drive to survive. There was the possibility to talk it out, if only they'd listen. Would they? Probably not, but maybe they should?

Jormag's been in a position where they've had to defend themself against anyone seeking a legend; not just themself either, but their branded charges, their children... I think that the address to Bangar—The Icebrood Saga trailer—was Jormag openly admitting their own vulnerability as much as anything else. What startled me was the meta-event in Drizzlewood involving the Claw of Jormag. He didn't exactly look like the most intimidating of fiends, did he? Cowering behind a column of ice in much the same way a bear might hide behind a tree from an ordery Elmer Fudd. I wouldn't call that a display of strength. If anything, it looked like the poor little baim was terrified. I mean, his mother was asleep and he didn't fancy his chances. Regardless, he was there to try to defend his sire, his parent. Awful business, that. I'm glad I didn't do it.

It's not like the situation changed when the aforementioned pillar was destroyed, either; he just up and left, or tried to. Got shot out of the sky, of course, and ended up having what looked like a panic attack before keeling over. I'm really glad I didn't play any part in that. I passed that particular test of empathy. I'm not doing that to the poor bae.

The point is is that Jormag is a persuasive, diplomatic dragon though they're hardly the strongest. It's going to be difficult for them to look out for their children, and even themself. Their best hope is that their capacity for persuasion leads to an amicable conclusion sans bloodshed. Of course, there are those who'd claim that Jormag needn't fear if they can control minds. They can't, of course, is the truth. I'd point out how Dragon's Watch routinely resisted their power, though knowing that isn't enough I'd also cite Tom Abernathy's own words on the matter. He has said many a time—until he's blue in the face—that Jormag's powers can't manifest that way. From what I gather, it's more like a convincing argument.

If one is as powerful as Kralkatorrik one might not fear. If one has suffered as much as Kralkatorrik has, on emight indeed welcome death rather than fear it. If a dragon happened to eat a lich so that they can't really die in the first place, they needn't really fear death either! However, Jormag has much to live for coupled with no such invulnerability, so I'd posit they do fear death. I think there's much to be learned of Jormag's true nature in the coming months. Dissimilarity from one's self or one's own isn't a great foundation for distrust and paranoia, our world has been—and continues to be—a mess thanks to that manner of tribalistic thinking. It should be outdated and outmoded by this point.

When it comes to Braham, we have already been told by the Spirits of the Wild that Braham is now part of a prophecy, and that either Braham must kill Jormag, or Jormag will kill him.

Absolute obedience to figures of authority? I'm not a fan of that, either. I'd wager that an encounter between Braham and Asgeir is on the cards and that the old norn—whom, as is my understand, is a norn's norn—will have many things to say to Braham about such foolishness. The cub needs a good chewing out. Blind obedience is never a good trait, if it's a trait truly valued by those spirits then the norn are, quite frankly, better off without them. I'd consider that more than a mere foible, legends are nothing more than simple stories encapsulated in toxic masculinity anyway. Just as the charr must inevitably move with the times and leave behind their toxic elements, the norn must too leave behind legends.

The Icebrood Saga, I feel, is a story about learning and growth. Both norn and charr alike will be irrevokably changed by it, all for the better if you ask me.

Braham has also mimicked several of Asgeir's actions, both by getting a weapon infused with Jotun fire magic, as Asgeir had, and by getting the Spirits of the Wild to channel their energies through him to slay one of Jormag's champions(Drakkar) as Asgeir did Frostfang.

The question is, must history repeat itself? Should it? Can there be a divergent path? Life has paths that twist and turn and one can find themself back at a familiar place and faced with troubles similar to those they used to know, but it's a sad day when one can't learn from the past and use those experiences to traverse these tribulations and forge a better path forward. One less stricken with strife. Indeed, just because history is shaping up to repeat itself, it doesn't mean it will play out the same.

Essentially, the Spirits are teaching the Commander and Braham how not to fail in the inevitable fight against Jormag as Asgeir did. Getting the bow back, and Braham being able to channel the Spirit's powers, will be key in defeating Jormag, as well as the lessons learned here.

You assume the true foe here is Jormag.
Your fear and focus is misplaced.
I'll say that much, because it's fun to say that! It's certainly true, though. It's easy to look at something and fear it because it's different despite it being as much a victim of this selfish past as anyone, without ever noticing the one behind the curtain, pulling the strings for the patsies to dance to.

Wow. This was actually deep. Still don't understand why they decided that turning our friends against us or compelling kodan to die makes them seem diplomatic. They were awake realitvly unchallenged for 150 years. I'll admit they seem to be the most intelligent of the 5 dragons but the sins are still great. They caused a 4 year blizzard when they awoke. They killed countless. They corrupted countless. They also lied by agreeing to let the Norm walk free and then attack them as they fled. That is not some kind of good creature protecting itself. That's something that decided to go back on their word. I still say they have an agenda and they need an army to take care of it.

And torturing and corrupting the spirts of the wild have made them an enemy of the Norn. Generations of loss will not be forgotten overnight. I think we are seeing fear from the them of their own mortality. Their brothers are dead. Three of the most powerful entities Tyria had ever seen were killed. They were weakened and hurt by Balthazar. This is the actions of a scared child hiding behind the mob they gathered to fight for them.

We will defeat them. Braham will defeat them of that I am sure. How? No idea.

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@Hypnowulf.7403 said:

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:If we read "A Burden" [...]

I've read a burden, yes. I... have a copy of it in a shared inventory slot. What of it??

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Asgeir lost to Jormag because
  1. He allowed Jormag to make him doubt his actions
  2. His hunting party was killed, leaving him to fight Jormag alone, and thus be alone to be manipulated by Jormag
  3. He lacked the physical and mental strength to keep fighting
  4. Arguably, he made the mistake of fighting Jormag too head on, allowing all of the above to happe

What a peculiar presumption, a perplexing perspective... It might be due to being a highly-sensitive person, an empath, but I've never really been given to calling compassion a sign of weakness. I do see that rather toxic ideology bandied around a lot, yes, but I don't prescribe to it myself. If one listens, one is weak; If one is kind, one is weak; If one dares deviate from the utter and immediate oblitteration of that which is unlike them, one is weak. I'm not a fan.

Asgeir didn't "lose" as that wasn't the situation. Asgeir listened, Asgeir had a little think about it, and Asgeir
learned
. I wish that real people were as reflective as fictive characters. To my mind, it takes more bravery to show compassion and to dare to let an assumed foe live in the attempt to foster respect and choose the teething troubles of co-existence. A murder is a very final, absolute thing after all. The murder of another in a setting like this without commonplace surveillance and well-established law is something that one can walk away from and never really look back. It's much more of an effort to try and live with those who're dissimilar than merely eradicate them.

Asgeir had the wherewithal to realise that his erstwhile foe was not so much a foe indeed, simply... different. One who had been met with hostility for little more than being a powerful creature that would've provided any norn with the might to slay them a legend. Such a chance is ambrosia to a nord so it means little whether diplomacy could be achieved. Asgeir saw that, in a way, Jormag was as much a victim of norn ambition as they were of the dragon's drive to survive. There was the possibility to talk it out, if only they'd listen. Would they? Probably not, but maybe they should?

Jormag's been in a position where they've had to defend themself against anyone seeking a legend; not just themself either, but their branded charges, their children... I think that the address to Bangar—The Icebrood Saga trailer—was Jormag openly admitting their own vulnerability as much as anything else. What startled me was the meta-event in Drizzlewood involving the Claw of Jormag. He didn't exactly look like the most intimidating of fiends, did he? Cowering behind a column of ice in much the same way a bear might hide behind a tree from an ordery Elmer Fudd. I wouldn't call that a display of strength. If anything, it looked like the poor little baim was terrified. I mean, his mother was asleep and he didn't fancy his chances. Regardless, he was there to try to defend his sire, his parent. Awful business, that. I'm glad I didn't do it.

It's not like the situation changed when the aforementioned pillar was destroyed, either; he just up and left, or tried to. Got shot out of the sky, of course, and ended up having what looked like a panic attack before keeling over. I'm really glad I didn't play any part in that. I passed that particular test of empathy. I'm not doing that to the poor bae.

The point is is that Jormag is a persuasive, diplomatic dragon though they're hardly the strongest. It's going to be difficult for them to look out for their children, and even themself. Their best hope is that their capacity for persuasion leads to an amicable conclusion sans bloodshed. Of course, there are those who'd claim that Jormag needn't fear if they can control minds. They can't, of course, is the truth. I'd point out how Dragon's Watch routinely resisted their power, though knowing that isn't enough I'd also cite Tom Abernathy's own words on the matter. He has said many a time—until he's blue in the face—that Jormag's powers can't manifest that way. From what I gather, it's more like a convincing argument.

If one is as powerful as Kralkatorrik one might not fear. If one has suffered as much as Kralkatorrik has, on emight indeed welcome death rather than fear it. If a dragon happened to eat a lich so that they can't really die in the first place, they needn't really fear death either! However, Jormag has much to live for coupled with no such invulnerability, so I'd posit they do fear death. I think there's much to be learned of Jormag's true nature in the coming months. Dissimilarity from one's self or one's own isn't a great foundation for distrust and paranoia, our world has been—and continues to be—a mess thanks to that manner of tribalistic thinking. It should be outdated and outmoded by this point.

When it comes to Braham, we have already been told by the Spirits of the Wild that Braham is now part of a prophecy, and that either Braham must kill Jormag, or Jormag will kill him.

Absolute obedience to figures of authority? I'm not a fan of that, either. I'd wager that an encounter between Braham and Asgeir is on the cards and that the old norn—whom, as is my understand, is a norn's norn—will have many things to say to Braham about such foolishness. The cub needs a good chewing out. Blind obedience is never a good trait, if it's a trait truly valued by those spirits then the norn are, quite frankly, better off without them. I'd consider that more than a mere foible, legends are nothing more than simple stories encapsulated in toxic masculinity anyway. Just as the charr must inevitably move with the times and leave behind their toxic elements, the norn must too leave behind legends.

The Icebrood Saga, I feel, is a story about learning and growth. Both norn and charr alike will be irrevokably changed by it, all for the better if you ask me.

Braham has also mimicked several of Asgeir's actions, both by getting a weapon infused with Jotun fire magic, as Asgeir had, and by getting the Spirits of the Wild to channel their energies through him to slay one of Jormag's champions(Drakkar) as Asgeir did Frostfang.

The question is, must history repeat itself? Should it? Can there be a divergent path? Life has paths that twist and turn and one can find themself back at a familiar place and faced with troubles similar to those they used to know, but it's a sad day when one can't learn from the past and use those experiences to traverse these tribulations and forge a better path forward. One less stricken with strife. Indeed, just because history is shaping up to repeat itself, it doesn't mean it will play out the same.

Essentially, the Spirits are teaching the Commander and Braham how not to fail in the inevitable fight against Jormag as Asgeir did. Getting the bow back, and Braham being able to channel the Spirit's powers, will be key in defeating Jormag, as well as the lessons learned here.

You assume the true foe here is Jormag.
Your fear and focus is misplaced.
I'll say that much, because it's fun to say that! It's certainly true, though. It's easy to look at something and fear it because it's different despite it being as much a victim of this selfish past as anyone, without ever noticing the one behind the curtain, pulling the strings for the patsies to dance to.

"Toxic masculinity" ? Did you REALLY just describe the norn, a race of "It doesn't matter who you are, or where you come from. If you're strong then you can do it!" With that phrase? Not only did you make me sick to think of the norn giving up what little of their cool factor remains from gw1, not only did you make me discredit your entire point and anything you think in general based on that. But you have made me question on how you function, because you surely would not be welcome in my presence as such disturbing demonization against nature is appalling.

Please seek help.

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@Hypnowulf.7403 said:snipI'm sorry but what?

  • Asgeir not killing Jormag had nothing to do with compassion. He never liked, or cared about, Jormag, or Jormag's life.
  • Jormag wasn't simply defending itself, it attacked first, and has attacked first since then. Its the other races who are defending themselves.
  • The Claws of Jormag have attacked people first many times.
  • The Elder Dragons don't fear death in the first place. Kralk states this very clear. So fear for its life isn't a motivation for Jormag.
  • Jormag isn't diplomatic. A diplomat wouldn't' constantly be manipulating people to wander out into the wastes to die, or using people's dead relative's voices against them.
  • The Spirit's of the Wild aren't the ones who made the prophecy. You aren't being blindly obedient by following it. Guild Wars is a realm of magic, and fates. That's just how things work.
  • History repeating itself would be Braham giving up the fight as Asgeir did, letting a genocidal dragon continue its rampage. changing history would be stopping an entity of such evil.
  • Jormag is the enemy though. Just look at all the horrible stuff its done in Icebrood Saga despite no one being actively going after it beforehand.
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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Stephen.6312" said:Look, I think that the business of Braham and Jormag needs to be put on hold. We've got the DSD to contend with and, in my opinion, there are very few armies capable of withstanding an assault from aquatic spellcasters. Jormag has managed to amass a diverse range of fighters, primarily norn and charr, arguably the most competent warriors of the Pact.I don't see why the DSD's armies would be any more or less competent/powerful then any of the other dragon's armies. Even if it was, I don't see why we would make the proverbial deal with the devil to try to stop it instead of doing what we have done with any of the other dragon's armies, which is make new allies, and develop new technology, and tactics, to defeat it. We have an entire continent of possible new allies in Cantha.

All of this makes me contemplate the ultimate fate of Aesgir. I believe that, with time, Aesgir came to realize that Jormag really does intend to preserve the norn race, not by corrupting them either. Sure, many norn have been corrupted, but not all of them. Furthermore, Aesgir concluded that some of his own people must be conscripted in order to save all of his people. What do I think happened to Aesgir? He became the Fraenir, willingly sacrificing himself to save his people.If anything, "A Burden" suggests the opposite. The last lines are even"I'm doing the right thing. I'm giving the norn a future. Why does it feel as though I gave up? As though I could've won, if only I'd pushed through the pain and exhaustion?The voice spoke true. I'll carry this burden for as long as I live. I only hope whoever takes it up when I'm gone can handle the weight of it. "Showing Asgeir believed he did the wrong thing by listening to Jormag.

Besides, what has Jormag done to suggest its being honest?
  • It lied to Asgier about leaving the Norn alone if they went south
  • It manipulated Bangar into starting a massively devastating civil war among the Charr, which also led to the genocide of the Drizzlewood communities
  • It used its "Voice" to manipulate the soldiers of Jora's Keep into killing each other
  • It also used its "Voice" to manipulate the Kodan, and Vigil Relief soldiers, into walking out into the snow and ice to lay down and die
  • Its mentally attacked Marjory, by using her dead sisters voice
  • Its lied/misled Bangar, its own pawn, into thinking it would make him its champion, when, in reality, it made him a slave in the form of its new "Voice"
  • Its tired multiple times to break down, and turn our allies against us, be it Braham, Rytlock, or Crecia
  • It continues to feed off of the power of the Spirits of the Wild, even though they are clearly against it

Jormag's claims of wanting to help are no different then the claims made by Zhaitan's minions that Zhaitan simply wants to help everyone avoid the pain of death and loss.... by forcibly making everyone undead Risen. And Jormag has done thing but use similar tactics. Remember, as it itself has said "ice forties, ice protects", its idea of "helping" is almost certainly something devastating like freezing the whole world into ice to stop the cycle or something ridiculous like that. And even Aurene calls out Jormag's actions in the latest "Confer with Bangar" achievement step.

Also, the Fraenir is stated to be a Son of Svanir that was chosen by Jormag for the position, so its not Asgeir.

Some one sees that like I did Norman is no more better then the other dragons.

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@Telwyn.1630 said:Some one sees that like I did Norman is no more better then the other dragons.I've never really understood the need to try to make Bubbles the unstoppable doom dragon of doom. If it was that powerful we surely would have seen something of it by now.

Its going to pose its own challenges sure, but nothing worse then any of the other dragons.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Telwyn.1630 said:Some one sees that like I did Norman is no more better then the other dragons.I've never really understood the need to try to make Bubbles the unstoppable doom dragon of doom. If it was that powerful we surely would have seen something of it by now.

Its going to pose its own challenges sure, but nothing worse then any of the other dragons.

Unless it's intentionally spent all this time avoiding focus to collect as much magic and forces as possible? If you become stronger when the others die it's kind of like that Halloween event right? Just find a nice little cubby somewhere and hide until the rest have been eliminated! That is one thing we have to consider though. Originally it posed no more threat, but with the death of others they become increasingly more of a threat. And given we don't know the location it's possible it could have absorbed the most of each elder dragon so far. Kralk, right in the ocean. Balthazar, Zhaitan right in the ocean, and Mordremoth right by the ocean. It's presumed he's much farther away but given that Jormag was able to obtain magic from Kralk, Mordremoth, and Zhaitan's death, it's reasonable to assume that Steve could have too. And potentially more as we really don't know where he is. That being said I'd imagine Primordus would have gotten a substantial power boost as well given he was last in the Fire Island chain which is really only furthest away from Kralk. I can't remember why Primordus was in that area but if he relocated due to the death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth it's reasonable to assume that Steve did as well. Jormag's really the only one that didn't move much.

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@Bast.7253 said:Unless it's intentionally spent all this time avoiding focus to collect as much magic and forces as possible? If you become stronger when the others die it's kind of like that Halloween event right? Just find a nice little cubby somewhere and hide until the rest have been eliminated! That is one thing we have to consider though. Originally it posed no more threat, but with the death of others they become increasingly more of a threat. And given we don't know the location it's possible it could have absorbed the most of each elder dragon so far. Kralk, right in the ocean. Balthazar, Zhaitan right in the ocean, and Mordremoth right by the ocean. It's presumed he's much farther away but given that Jormag was able to obtain magic from Kralk, Mordremoth, and Zhaitan's death, it's reasonable to assume that Steve could have too. And potentially more as we really don't know where he is. That being said I'd imagine Primordus would have gotten a substantial power boost as well given he was last in the Fire Island chain which is really only furthest away from Kralk. I can't remember why Primordus was in that area but if he relocated due to the death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth it's reasonable to assume that Steve did as well. Jormag's really the only one that didn't move much.Well, Jormag was much closer to the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth then Bubbles was, and its specifically made a plot point in S3 that its so far away that it absorbed little of either's power after they died(at least compared to Primordus). And while we don't know Bubbles exact location, it seems to be far closer to Cantha then Tyria, so I would presume the same would be trube of Balthazar and Kralkatorrik's deaths also. Yes Bubbles would have gotten power from it, but seemingly only the minority.

Primordus moved to the Ring of Fire because there is a leyline going from there to where Mordremoth died in Dragon's stand. It moved there to feed off of the released power. IIRC, That_Shaman found that Anet even modeled a leyline tunnel in Draconis Mons going off into the direction of Dragon's Stand. As it stands, Primordus is the one most likely to be the super elder dragon of doom, not Bubbles.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Bast.7253 said:Unless it's intentionally spent all this time avoiding focus to collect as much magic and forces as possible? If you become stronger when the others die it's kind of like that Halloween event right? Just find a nice little cubby somewhere and hide until the rest have been eliminated! That is one thing we have to consider though. Originally it posed no more threat, but with the death of others they become increasingly more of a threat. And given we don't know the location it's possible it could have absorbed the most of each elder dragon so far. Kralk, right in the ocean. Balthazar, Zhaitan right in the ocean, and Mordremoth right by the ocean. It's presumed he's much farther away but given that Jormag was able to obtain magic from Kralk, Mordremoth, and Zhaitan's death, it's reasonable to assume that Steve could have too. And potentially more as we really don't know where he is. That being said I'd imagine Primordus would have gotten a substantial power boost as well given he was last in the Fire Island chain which is really only furthest away from Kralk. I can't remember why Primordus was in that area but if he relocated due to the death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth it's reasonable to assume that Steve did as well. Jormag's really the only one that didn't move much.Well, Jormag was much closer to the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth then Bubbles was, and its specifically made a plot point in S3 that its so far away that it absorbed little of either's power after they died(at least compared to Primordus). And while we don't know Bubbles exact location, it seems to be far closer to Cantha then Tyria, so I would presume the same would be trube of Balthazar and Kralkatorrik's deaths also. Yes Bubbles would have gotten power from it, but seemingly only the minority.

Primordus moved to the Ring of Fire because there is a leyline going from there to where Mordremoth died in Dragon's stand. It moved there to feed off of the released power. IIRC, That_Shaman found that Anet even modeled a leyline tunnel in Draconis Mons going off into the direction of Dragon's Stand. As it stands, Primordus is the one most likely to be the super elder dragon of doom, not Bubbles.

If Aurene is being called the dragon of light, then it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch for Primordus to absorb the other magics of the other dragons and be called the dragon of darkness.

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@Tyson.5160 said:If Aurene is being called the dragon of light, then it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch for Primordus to absorb the other magics of the other dragons and be called the dragon of darkness.

Technically, Aurene is the Prismatic Dragon.She absorbs magic, splits it like a prism splits light, and releases it.Also, prisms are specific kinds of crystals, so its fits Aurene, who still is a crystal dragon, better than light.

If Aurene actually was a dragon of Light, all of the other Elder Dragons would be dark dragons,as they merely absorb magic like dark surfaces absorb most light.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:If Aurene is being called the dragon of light, then it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch for Primordus to absorb the other magics of the other dragons and be called the dragon of darkness.

Technically, Aurene is the Prismatic Dragon.She absorbs magic, splits it like a prism splits light, and releases it.Also, prisms are specific kinds of crystals, so its fits Aurene, who still
is
a crystal dragon, better than light.

If Aurene
actually
was a dragon of Light,
all
of the other Elder Dragons would be dark dragons,as they merely absorb magic like dark surfaces absorb most light.

I believe she is described as both, the light and primastic. According to the living world magazine as well as other sources.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:If Aurene is being called the dragon of light, then it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch for Primordus to absorb the other magics of the other dragons and be called the dragon of darkness.

Technically, Aurene is the Prismatic Dragon.She absorbs magic, splits it like a prism splits light, and releases it.Also, prisms are specific kinds of crystals, so its fits Aurene, who still
is
a crystal dragon, better than light.

If Aurene
actually
was a dragon of Light,
all
of the other Elder Dragons would be dark dragons,as they merely absorb magic like dark surfaces absorb most light.

I believe she is described as both, the light and primastic. According to the living world magazine as well as other sources.

My guess is that the only reason she's only called the light dragon is because Arenanet wanted a less "complicated" term for non-Asuran races to use.

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  • 1 month later...
  • Its mentally attacked Marjory, by using her dead sisters voice

Its more horrific than that which is why she is so shaken afterward. The ritual rips a piece of spiritual essence to make a malicious copy so since her sister's essence was in the sword it copied a part of it and made her fight it to restore the sword! So she had to "kill" her sister to save her essence. Talk about PTSD. Just awful.

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Zhaitan was the dragon of death and shadow. I'd call it reasonably close to saying that Zhaitan (alone) was the dragon of darkness.

Aurene being associated with light is something that I suspect might be similar to Kormir being the goddess of Truth, while Abaddon was the god of Secrets. It's the same domain, passed from Abaddon to Kormir, but Kormir has a different take on it. Similarly, I suspect that light might have always been part of Kralkatorrik's domains, but an aspect that, in his madness, was suppressed in favour of more destructive manifestations.

In short, 'Light' is a part of the sphere formerly associated with Kralkatorrik and now with Aurene, not a combination of spheres.

In terms of Jormag:

Jormag has been described as the 'Dragon of Persuasion', and I think Jormag's behaviour as a supposed ally in the current release shows how Jormag does that, and it's not diplomacy.

In fact, it's a pretty realistic depiction of a psychological abuser.

Pay attention to what Jormag says to Aurene in the first instance. It's classic 'get your victim to isolate themselves' behaviour. Your friends can't help you. I may have done bad things, but so have you and your friends, so are we really so different? Your friends are holding you back. Your friends may have succeeded thus far, but only out of luck, and that can only hold so far. You should put your trust in me instead.

And that's without even considering Ryland negging everyone he fights beside. I'm going to hang out on a limb and guess that's coming from somewhere.

Jormag's 'persuasion' seems to be coming in the form of breaking down their victim's self-confidence and confidence in their allies until they come to believe that Jormag is their only hope.

Heck, this might be exactly where Bangar's belief that Aurene was a weapon to be used against him came from - while Bangar was too proud to contemplate being Jormag's servant rather than the master, his feeling of paranoia and belief that the only road to security was through Jormag seems to be part of a theme that's repeated several times. Started with Asgeir, we saw it with Bangar, and now Jormag and Ryland are trying to do it to Aurene, the Commander, and any of their allies they can get their claws into.

Which could well mean we might so some or all of the Arcane Council flip before this is all over. They were already prone to isolationist paranoia beforehand, and this would give Jormag fertile ground.

Heck, come to think on it, maybe THIS is the connection with Cantha. We're not going to deal with Jormag in Tyria. Jormag will use us to kill or distract Primordus, but a nation which is already known for its isolationist and xenophobic tendencies, and which already has an immense respect for dragons, might be a prime target for Jormag. If Jormag doesn't know about Cantha now, they certainly will if the truce gives them the opportunity to learn some more human and/or tengu history. (And the tengu have been teased as being a future ally faction...)

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Addendum: Looking at the journal entries for the current chapter, the Commander seems to see pretty much the same thing.

As an additional note: Anyone else noticed the similarity between Braham sensing where the Destroyer of the Ironhammer Line was going, and how we tracked down Svanir using Wolf's blessing in GW1?

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@draxynnic.3719 said:Addendum: Looking at the journal entries for the current chapter, the Commander seems to see pretty much the same thing.

As an additional note: Anyone else noticed the similarity between Braham sensing where the Destroyer of the Ironhammer Line was going, and how we tracked down Svanir using Wolf's blessing in GW1?

Yeah, the fact that they are still bringing up the bow, and the prophecy, as well as Braham getting some dragon minion tracking powers, does give me some hope that they something similar to what I said in my OP will still happen. Even if Braham doesn't deliver the final blow.

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